**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 11 02:59:57 2011
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 11 05:00:37 2011
Dec 11 07:56:55 <Qantourisc> Anyone here has a openmako phone ?
Dec 11 09:57:51 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: gta02? Sure, many do.
Dec 11 11:35:01 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: anyone using it ? :)
Dec 11 11:48:22 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: sure. I do too.
Dec 11 11:55:36 <Sazius> my Freerunner saved me this week when I went to the US and had forgotten that my dumb phone doesn't support triband :)
Dec 11 11:56:19 <Sazius> I had brought my Freerunner along as a GPS device, but it was then upgraded to full smart phone :)
Dec 11 11:59:55 <Sazius> or last week more accurately
Dec 11 13:09:41 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: how is it, what os do you use ?
Dec 11 13:22:38 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: i use Debian + fso from about Jan 2011... It doesn't work nice i'd say. But that's me, using my phone the hardcore way.
Dec 11 13:22:56 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: many people who're using recent SHR or QtMoko are happy with functionality.
Dec 11 13:22:57 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: define hardcore, and not nice :)
Dec 11 13:23:25 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: i compiled the whole FSO stack from git and wrote an Emacs UI for it, that's what i meant by hardcore.
Dec 11 13:23:28 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: also, how fast or slow does a linux run on sutch a phone ?
Dec 11 13:23:40 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: fancy :)
Dec 11 13:24:01 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: stupid question; is sms supported ? :)
Dec 11 13:24:25 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: depends on what you do. Compared with modern devices it's quite slow. But given the right decisions (as used by e.g. QtMoko) it's reasonably fast to be useful. 
Dec 11 13:24:40 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: yes, i can send and receive messages via SMS.
Dec 11 13:25:18 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: well what is slow ? do the button lag notisabily ?
Dec 11 13:25:26 <Qantourisc> or just running cpu intensive things is slow ?
Dec 11 13:25:58 <Qantourisc> qtmoko seems nice (if i can run other software)
Dec 11 13:26:16 <Qantourisc> hmmm that makes me wonder ... how about the keyboard on non-phonebased applications ?
Dec 11 13:26:36 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: sometimes _my_ setup is so slow that i can't manage to answer the call before the other side hangs up.
Dec 11 13:26:49 <Qantourisc> *jikes*
Dec 11 13:26:56 <Qantourisc> how comes yours is slow ?
Dec 11 13:26:57 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: i use on-screen keyboard and it's surprisingly good enough for emacsing. 
Dec 11 13:26:59 <Qantourisc> tomutch heavy software ?
Dec 11 13:27:14 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: old kernel with debug info, FSO debug logs enabled, etc...
Dec 11 13:27:16 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: so the on-screen keyboard apears nomather what applicatino
Dec 11 13:27:21 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: OUCH :)
Dec 11 13:27:27 <Qantourisc> that could get slow
Dec 11 13:27:35 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: no, i use AUX to toggle the keyboard.
Dec 11 13:27:36 <Qantourisc> other silly question: don't the SD cards weir out ?
Dec 11 13:28:08 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: so you can choice when to display it ... and the window manager takes care of shrinking the app then ?
Dec 11 13:28:14 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: it's highly unlikely for a card to wear out.
Dec 11 13:28:25 <Qantourisc> then again, a backup :)
Dec 11 13:28:25 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: there were some tests done by some DE magazine.
Dec 11 13:28:32 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: yup
Dec 11 13:28:43 <Qantourisc> if it weirs out, restore backup, new card :)
Dec 11 13:28:59 <Qantourisc> imap ? cardav ? icaldav ?
Dec 11 13:29:36 <Qantourisc> that i also care about ... for sip i should be able to use linphone.
Dec 11 13:29:50 * Qantourisc loves open standards.
Dec 11 13:30:33 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: linphone works in theory but i'm not sure if anyone was able to use it for voice calls in real life. It needs some tweaking to not use floating point operations and it needs echo-cancellation or automatic half-duplex enabled.
Dec 11 13:30:53 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: everything's there and it should work. Not over GPRS though, plain old GPRS is too slow, you need a wifi connection.
Dec 11 13:30:58 <Qantourisc> Why would it need echo-cancellation (unless it's on speaker)
Dec 11 13:31:18 <Qantourisc> it's for wifi use usually i think, then egain ...
Dec 11 13:31:21 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: unfortunately, the case is known to provide acoustic feedback from the earpiece to the mic...
Dec 11 13:31:23 <Qantourisc> no 3G onthe thing ?
Dec 11 13:31:34 <Qantourisc> and linphone supports half-duplex :)
Dec 11 13:31:35 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: no even fucking EDGE :/
Dec 11 13:31:53 <Qantourisc> o dear ... hardware limit ?
Dec 11 13:32:06 <Qantourisc> GTA03 ?
Dec 11 13:32:36 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: any other sip solutions ?
Dec 11 13:33:10 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: there's ``Pisi'' software that supports some of the open standards for syncing contacts and the like, but it's not polished. Basically, you can install any light-weight application you want.
Dec 11 13:33:43 <PaulFertser> Sure, the GSM chipset was EOL even before gta02 was designed.
Dec 11 13:34:29 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: gta04 is something that you can consider, yes, but it's expensive and in the very "development" state currently. Though quite promising.
Dec 11 13:35:14 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: if i can "download/import" the contacts, am happy to ... (writing a script etc.)
Dec 11 13:35:39 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: sure, everything's possible with some small bash/awk/python magic :)
Dec 11 13:36:12 <Qantourisc> good
Dec 11 13:36:25 <Qantourisc> then, what hardware should i buy ?
Dec 11 13:36:38 <Qantourisc> freerunner ? n9 ? n900? something else ?
Dec 11 13:37:24 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: as funny as it gets, freerunner is the only thing that's supported by free software enough to be a daily phone...
Dec 11 13:38:07 <Qantourisc> ow
Dec 11 13:38:15 <Qantourisc> pitty i'm buying old hardware :)
Dec 11 13:38:27 <Qantourisc> so no gta03 to obtain ?
Dec 11 13:38:34 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: gta02 or gta04 only.
Dec 11 13:39:04 <Qantourisc> so what is wrong with gta04 ?
Dec 11 13:39:38 <Qantourisc> 666€ nice :)
Dec 11 13:40:13 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: still early in development.
Dec 11 13:40:24 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: old stupid FR's case.
Dec 11 13:40:28 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: small screen
Dec 11 13:40:47 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: n900 is promising but still not really works as a daily phone.
Dec 11 13:43:57 <Qantourisc> small screen also means small phone :)
Dec 11 13:44:09 <Qantourisc> That's not a down for me perse
Dec 11 13:47:11 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: so some things are not working ?
Dec 11 13:47:36 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: gta04 is in, well, alpha/beta stage afaict
Dec 11 13:48:26 <Qantourisc> Quess it's waiting for the upgrade board then
Dec 11 13:48:35 <Qantourisc> Now i don't need a smartphone just yet
Dec 11 13:48:41 <Qantourisc> so i can either upgrade later, or wait
Dec 11 13:51:15 <Qantourisc> o dear ... how about WPA2 ?
Dec 11 13:51:58 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: also 20kbits should just be fast enough for SIP btw: )
Dec 11 13:52:10 <Qantourisc> if using the right codex
Dec 11 13:52:17 <Qantourisc> like GSM12 or speed 8kbits
Dec 11 13:52:26 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: WPA2 works.
Dec 11 13:52:32 <PaulFertser> speex or ilbc, yes.
Dec 11 13:52:53 <PaulFertser> Well, i've asked several times but somehow nobody has put enough effort to tell for sure if linphone works properly or not.
Dec 11 13:54:10 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: I'm pro sip ... so I should be able to tell if i get one :)
Dec 11 13:54:16 <Qantourisc> any eta on gta04 ? :)
Dec 11 13:55:07 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: i'd say it should be clear if it's worthy in about 2 months.
Dec 11 13:55:18 <PaulFertser> Mind that i'm usually over-optimistic.
Dec 11 13:55:22 <Qantourisc> :)
Dec 11 13:55:41 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: if you're pro sip, tell me why the the hell i can't find a sip client with proper support for ipv6?
Dec 11 13:56:16 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: don't have a lot of sip yet :)
Dec 11 13:56:27 <Qantourisc> PaulFertser: and i quess no-one cared enough yet ?
Dec 11 13:56:35 <PaulFertser> Qantourisc: they should...
Dec 11 13:56:39 <Qantourisc> i know
Dec 11 13:56:56 <Qantourisc> If I can get my life together, i should have time to aid, and code these things
Dec 11 13:57:22 <Qantourisc> If I get my life together, I need a smartphone :)
Dec 11 13:57:25 <Qantourisc> the irony :)
Dec 11 13:57:31 <PaulFertser> :)
Dec 11 13:57:38 <PaulFertser> FR can take helluva time, beware :)
Dec 11 13:58:58 <Qantourisc> yea ...
Dec 11 13:59:01 <Qantourisc> i figured 
Dec 11 14:00:07 * Qantourisc needs to get rid of having 1 time consuming, bad paying and customer. As now i'm depend on it ... dangerous situation.
Dec 11 20:02:34 <lide> I just installed SHR and it's extremely sluggy
Dec 11 20:02:50 <lide> totally unusable on GTA02
Dec 11 20:03:37 <lide> froze twice already so that I had to force reboot, again it's completely unresponsive to any commands
Dec 11 20:03:55 <lide> did somebody actually get this to a decent shape?
Dec 11 20:05:42 <lide> also the one keyboard I liked from QTmoko has been implemented here which was nice except that the magnifying effect and extending megasize keys get on my way
Dec 11 20:06:16 <lide> I think it's realistic to say this device isn't very functional without a stylus, aside from making calls
Dec 11 20:06:39 <lide> so I'd rather just go stylus all the way
Dec 11 20:07:21 <lide> and all the other keyboards I tried are even worse :D
Dec 11 20:12:33 <PaulFertser> lide: i use my phone daily
Dec 11 20:12:45 <PaulFertser> lide: without a stylus with emacs and e17's keyboard.
Dec 11 20:13:00 <PaulFertser> lide: and i cut my fingernails (sometimes ;) )
Dec 11 20:14:06 <lide> :O
Dec 11 20:14:46 <lide> well I bite mine and I have fat fingertips
Dec 11 20:14:56 <lide> impossible to work the phone without stylus
Dec 11 20:15:00 <lide> but I don't mind at all
Dec 11 20:15:21 <lide> what gets me, though, is the ridiculous lag in trivial tasks
Dec 11 20:15:37 <lide> and the freezes
Dec 11 20:15:43 <PaulFertser> Yep... :/
Dec 11 20:17:09 <lide> I mean... I know the hardware is dated, but it's not THAT shit, clearly software optimization isn't a priority these days when we have quadcore smartphones hitting the markets
Dec 11 20:18:38 <lide> SHR seems interesting functionally, I mean it seems more like a real linux compared to QTmoko for instance, in which I felt a little crippled, but it's so damnnnn bloated
Dec 11 20:19:59 <lide> do people actually run a variety of different window managers / desktop environments on different distros? because I'd be ready to try something :)
Dec 11 20:21:58 <lide> and I ditched QTmoko today because it wouldn't allow me to set the hardware clock (laughable) and I was sick of setting the time manually (no wifi at home, didn't get usbnet to work, gps sync didn't seem trivial) every time the phone goes into a tilt, which was a bit too often
Dec 11 20:22:22 <PaulFertser> lide: do you mean hwclock didn't work?
Dec 11 20:22:42 <lide> yeah couldn't access the device or someting
Dec 11 20:22:44 <PaulFertser> lide: or do you mean your backup battery is botched just like everybody's else?
Dec 11 20:23:10 <lide> I wouldn't know, worth a check
Dec 11 20:23:26 <lide> but it seemed that QTmoko wasn't able to access the device
Dec 11 20:23:57 <PaulFertser> lide: if you reboot by pulling out the battery, probably that doesn't matter.
Dec 11 20:24:33 <PaulFertser> lide: also, it would be nice if you reported the bug properly, attaching the dmesg and the exact error message from hwclock.
Dec 11 20:25:03 <lide> no prob if I only remembered what it said
Dec 11 20:25:27 <lide> and I don't get the part about removing the battery to boot
Dec 11 20:25:33 <lide> after tilt
Dec 11 20:26:11 <lide> according to wiki this hwclock issue was known
Dec 11 20:27:02 <PaulFertser> lide: with what kernel version?
Dec 11 20:28:36 <lide> I don't remember that either and it doesn't help that the .bin's are named so ambiguously :p
Dec 11 20:29:07 <PaulFertser> Well...
Dec 11 20:30:16 <lide> I don't expect any instant gratification but I also don't hold myself back on criticism, I can get this information for you if it helps
Dec 11 20:30:44 <lide> right now I'm trying to find the wiki page I read
Dec 11 20:31:41 <lide> there is a mention of the backup battery being a probable cause
Dec 11 20:33:00 <lide> and I'd right now look first into that to see if that was really my issue. but I'd still prefer SHR or debian (didn't try yet) to QTmoko (which I really liked as a phone OS but found to be a little too limited)
Dec 11 20:37:17 <lide> oh, another thing :D  my gsm voice calls transmit some horrendous distorted noise with bleeps, people complained to me about it and I did a bit of listening on their end and it sounds like the gsm signals are somehow adding noise to the mic line
Dec 11 20:37:58 <lide> I mean it sounds pretty much the same as the bleeps and buzzing you get when you have some audio equipment on when someone in the proximity receives a call or sms
Dec 11 20:38:36 <lide> and my mobo is A7++ so it should be buzz-fixed
Dec 11 20:40:22 <lide> and it seems to occur semi-randomly. I was able to tune the mic and voice volumes so that the whirring & buzzing noises subsided to tolerable levels, but then after I made another call they returned
Dec 11 20:41:15 <lide> so I thought could the gsm modem be doing some unnecessary cell scans constantly, would this even be possible in middle of a phone conversation?
Dec 11 20:46:10 <PaulFertser> lide: probably the bad soldering of that buzz-filter capacitor?
Dec 11 20:46:27 <PaulFertser> Check the circuity.
Dec 11 20:46:43 <PaulFertser> lide: also, isn't QtMoko based on Debian already?
Dec 11 20:49:45 <lide> hmm, I'll check that out. good directions, thanks. opening the thing was on the to-do list anyway. 
Dec 11 20:51:01 <lide> yes QTmoko is a debian derivative but I couldn't find many apps
Dec 11 20:51:09 <lide> and I wasn't sure if the other repos would work
Dec 11 20:51:26 <lide> and how would the GUI handle them
Dec 11 20:52:12 <lide> well being a binary distro there's good chance apps from other repos should work but I'm not trusting the environment enough to save me from a dep hell
Dec 11 20:53:28 <lide> for one I always detested ubuntu, *although* it was supposed to be based on a successful distro
Dec 11 20:54:16 <lide> then again I wasn't a big fan of debian either, was very bloated on my zaurus too, but was the smallest of all evils available :p
Dec 11 20:54:49 <lide> I gotta run, bbl
Dec 11 20:54:56 <lide> ty for the tips
Dec 11 20:55:10 <lide> I'll try to be more informative in the future ^^
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 12 02:59:56 2011