**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat May 04 02:59:58 2013
May 04 14:35:30 <Alina-malina> is openmoko dead?
May 04 14:37:12 <Alina-malina> Hello all!
May 04 14:43:24 <kirun> It's... resting.
May 04 14:47:03 <Alina-malina> hi kirun:)
May 04 14:47:05 <Alina-malina> how are you doing?
May 04 14:47:11 <Alina-malina> I have a couple of questions, can you help me?
May 04 14:47:36 <kirun> I may not be able to help, but maybe somebody will if you ask.
May 04 14:47:42 <Alina-malina> ok
May 04 14:48:14 <Alina-malina> I would like to connect to my phone and try to see the protocols running, and see my location with my cellphone, is that possible?
May 04 14:55:46 <kirun> There is a DBUS interface to the GPS: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Ogpsd
May 04 14:57:08 <Alina-malina> i dont have a gps on my phone, i need something to see the local location
May 04 14:57:09 <kirun> There's also http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#GPS for seeing it *on* the phone
May 04 14:57:30 <kirun> Wait, what phone do you have then?
May 04 14:57:55 <Alina-malina> android phone
May 04 15:01:37 <Alina-malina> what is this channel about?
May 04 15:03:18 <kirun> The Openmoko project to create phones that are free hardware and software...
May 04 15:03:48 <kirun> It crosses over a little as some people run Android on the hardware, or run the software on other phones
May 04 15:04:06 <Alina-malina> what about gsm protocol? is there any linux distro available for it?
May 04 15:06:11 <kirun> In most cases, the GSM hardware is a binary blob kernel module, in order not to have 9001 regulators hovering over you.
May 04 15:07:14 <Alina-malina> how i can connect to that?
May 04 15:10:03 <kirun> I'm not really familiar with the detail of the low level stuff, sorry.
May 04 15:10:07 <PaulFertser> kirun: i doubt it's kernel module usually
May 04 15:10:16 <PaulFertser> kirun: in android they have "RIL"s that run in userspace.
May 04 15:10:25 <kirun> ^ listen to this guy instead
May 04 15:11:01 <Alina-malina> PaulFertser, i see, for example if i want to ping to gsm station of my local operator what i will need for that?
May 04 15:11:20 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: if you're running android on some random android phone you can take a look at many apps that report current GSM Cell ID (LAC/CID) and then use openbmap database or some other cellid database to try to estimate your location.
May 04 15:11:38 <Alina-malina> wow
May 04 15:12:02 <Alina-malina> PaulFertser, i dont know the model of the phone, it is some cninesse phone
May 04 15:12:31 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: ping a gsm station? Ahem, i'm afraid i do not know any generic way.
May 04 15:12:40 <Alina-malina> PaulFertser, is there anyway i can see that gsm cell id?
May 04 15:12:51 <Alina-malina> in console mode
May 04 15:13:31 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: yes, i suppose there's android API for that. But luckily i've never used Android so i can't tell. I know google appstore has some ready-made applications that retrieve it, so the API is definitely there.
May 04 15:14:27 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: btw, greetings to Armenia from the kalinka-malinka country ;)
May 04 15:14:34 <Alina-malina> :))
May 04 15:14:42 <Alina-malina> actually it is not the kalinka-malinka countr
May 04 15:14:45 <Alina-malina> *country
May 04 15:14:48 <Alina-malina>  Russia is
May 04 15:14:53 <Alina-malina> kalinka-malinka:)
May 04 15:15:03 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: yes, that's why i'm sendings greetings from me to you :)
May 04 15:15:13 <Alina-malina> oh russian?:)
May 04 15:15:16 <PaulFertser> Yep
May 04 15:15:24 <Alina-malina> Привет:)
May 04 15:15:41 <PaulFertser> Привет :) but English only here please :)
May 04 15:15:46 <Alina-malina> ok:)
May 04 15:15:53 <Alina-malina> Here how i imagine this stuff dear PaulFertser 
May 04 15:16:15 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: here's the API: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/telephony/gsm/GsmCellLocation.html
May 04 15:16:24 <Alina-malina> i want to mount my android phone to my linux/debian pc and watch how the gsm protocol works, i want to see what is in there play with protocol
May 04 15:17:01 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: oh, then no way here. And also there's no single GSM protocol. It's an awful hell of a lot stack of nonsense...
May 04 15:17:33 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: if you're really interested, take a look at OpenBSC, OpenBTS and other related projects to have a peek inside.
May 04 15:17:43 <PaulFertser> Beware the dragons
May 04 15:17:51 <Alina-malina> what dragons?
May 04 15:18:04 <Alina-malina> BTS is very expensive, i cant offord it:)
May 04 15:18:24 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: meant this in ironical sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons
May 04 15:19:05 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: there was an amazing talk by Silvain who made a Calypso phone imitate a BTS.
May 04 15:19:05 <Alina-malina> :) you mean it is not safe to play with that stuff:)?
May 04 15:19:24 <Alina-malina> yes? the polish stuff right?
May 04 15:19:33 <Alina-malina> that turned to be china crap?
May 04 15:19:37 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: no, i mean GSM is uber-complicated and for the majority of mere mortals is an unexplored territory.
May 04 15:20:19 <Alina-malina> i see, i thought to give it a try:)
May 04 15:24:29 <Alina-malina> so you dont know any gsm tools right for android or linux?
May 04 15:25:02 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: i know gsm-related tools for GNU/Linux but i do not see how they might be related here.
May 04 15:27:07 <Alina-malina> PaulFertser, what they do?
May 04 15:27:17 <Alina-malina> what is their point?
May 04 15:33:39 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: i know e.g. about gammu/wammu, are they not gsm-related enough?
May 04 15:34:14 <Alina-malina> never heared of them. Dear PaulFertser do you know if i install openbts and connect my phone to it, will i get something?
May 04 15:36:34 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: you can't just install OpenBTS, you need some hardware, e.g. USRP.
May 04 15:39:06 <Alina-malina> can i just connect my phone and work with it? or i need the USRP definitely?
May 04 15:46:26 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: are you really sure you want to dig stuff as complicated as GSM? I'm afraid we're talking about different things, you seem to be having a different idea of what GSM is.
May 04 15:47:20 <Alina-malina> dear PaulFertser all i want is to connet my phone and for example when i am calling i want to see what is happening in console, or i want to see my cell location etc that basic stuff, i dont want to become a gsm engineer
May 04 15:49:13 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: for cell id i've already provided you with a reference to the official Android API, you can easily write several lines of Java code to access it.
May 04 15:49:40 <Alina-malina> oh, sorry, are you sure this program will work with any cellphone operator?
May 04 15:49:41 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: and "what is happening" is a rather broad description.
May 04 15:50:12 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: it'll tell you lac and cid if your RIL (android's name for gsm modem library) supports it, operator doesn't matter.
May 04 15:51:12 <Alina-malina> how i can check if it support? It is some chinese phone, where i can look for it in my device?
May 04 15:56:34 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: just start some app that's using it.
May 04 15:57:18 <Alina-malina> :) how i can know what app using it?
May 04 15:57:38 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: http://www.google.com/search?q=android+show+cell+id&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
May 04 15:58:37 <Alina-malina> PaulFertser, ok just a moment
May 04 16:05:58 <Alina-malina> it is downloading.....just give me a couple of minutes
May 04 16:08:04 <Alina-malina> ok, now i install it and it show me numbers
May 04 16:08:30 <Alina-malina> but no latitude and longitude it is 0.0
May 04 16:09:12 <Alina-malina> i have the network type, i have fsm cell id and gsm location area code, also mobile country code, mobilte network code country operator thats it
May 04 16:09:57 <Alina-malina> interestintg the gsm cel id is changing 
May 04 16:14:10 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: ok, now all you need is a gsm cell id database. Probably there's no free data for you area.
May 04 16:14:37 <Alina-malina> what if i make that database myself? i can travell all over town and fix the numbers and there you go a DB:)
May 04 16:18:49 <Alina-malina> or generate numbers and put them with maps? 
May 04 16:26:46 <PaulFertser> Alina-malina: yeah, that would be cool if you extend the database. Better do it with GPS of course.
May 04 16:27:26 <Alina-malina> is this program online running, like if i walk some 200m away from my location, this number will be changed right?
May 04 16:28:39 <Alina-malina> i think i can do that, just need to setup python to work with that cellid info software
May 04 19:30:56 <Alina-malina> Anyway i`ve heared some stories that there are billion dollar technics that gorevnemnt owns and can track all radio activity and listen to all phone calls, is that true? I read that stuff on wiki, i understand a couple of things and i am wondering if there is really 3-4 people in the worldthat understand  gsm from top to bottom
May 04 20:32:13 <ndnihil> unless you encrypt your comms, and do it well, yes, uncle sugar can listen in
May 04 20:32:36 <Alina-malina> what are comms?
May 04 20:32:43 <ndnihil> communications
May 04 20:32:59 <Alina-malina> how i can encrypt my cellphone if it is signalling all the time to BTS?
May 04 20:33:06 <Alina-malina> my location
May 04 20:33:37 <Alina-malina> ndnihil are you from India?
May 04 20:33:39 <ndnihil> oh they'll still be able to get your location
May 04 20:33:45 <ndnihil> that's just the nature of RF
May 04 20:33:52 <ndnihil> and no I'm not
May 04 20:34:01 <ndnihil> do I type with an accent?
May 04 20:34:20 <Alina-malina> yes, thats why i was wondering about that. :) No i thought your name is Nihil, it is sounds like Indian name sorry
May 04 20:34:38 <ndnihil> its latin
May 04 20:34:43 <Alina-malina> ok
May 04 20:34:57 <Alina-malina> What about satelittle internet? Do you use it?
May 04 20:35:02 <ndnihil> you're not the first to make that connection though
May 04 20:35:08 <Alina-malina> :)
May 04 20:35:17 <ndnihil> nope, I don't do much with satellite anymore
May 04 20:35:24 <Alina-malina> why?
May 04 20:35:31 <ndnihil> cost vs. benefit
May 04 20:35:47 <ndnihil> too much of one, not enough of the other
May 04 20:36:00 <Alina-malina> i see
May 04 20:36:13 <Alina-malina> and gsm stuff? What about it?
May 04 20:36:19 <ndnihil> what about it?
May 04 20:36:21 <ndnihil> it's gsm
May 04 20:36:24 <ndnihil> the old standby
May 04 20:36:50 <ndnihil> it's not the channels you want to encrypt, it's the communications themselves, end to end
May 04 20:37:08 <Alina-malina> Is it possible to hack into gsm internet? like 3g or gprs?
May 04 20:37:35 <ndnihil> anything is possible
May 04 20:37:54 <ndnihil> but really, you need to figure out of all the time and effort put into things is worth the payoff
May 04 20:38:17 <Alina-malina> so you are android developer right?
May 04 20:38:23 <ndnihil> do you really want to spend months or years writing code just for a few moments of giggling with your friends?
May 04 20:38:35 <Alina-malina> :) ofcoarse not
May 04 20:38:40 <ndnihil> amongst other things, yes I've done some android dev
May 04 20:39:10 <Alina-malina> so you are in this chanel thats why i asked about gsm, this is like android gsm channel right?
May 04 20:39:21 <ndnihil> nope
May 04 20:39:24 <ndnihil> not even close
May 04 20:39:29 <Alina-malina> so what is this?
May 04 20:39:40 <ndnihil> this is the channel for the openmoko phones
May 04 20:39:43 <ndnihil> full on linux phones
May 04 20:40:02 <ndnihil> I just installed debian on my gta02 a while back
May 04 20:40:07 <ndnihil> full proper debian
May 04 20:40:12 <Alina-malina> what is gta02?
May 04 20:40:20 <ndnihil> same as I run on my desktop, laptop, etc...
May 04 20:40:25 <ndnihil> it's a phone model
May 04 20:40:30 <ndnihil> also known as the freerunner
May 04 20:41:04 <Alina-malina> so what it gives you?
May 04 20:41:13 <Alina-malina> You also can install the ubuntu for mobile right?
May 04 20:42:23 <ndnihil> I wouldnt
May 04 20:42:33 <Alina-malina> then why debian?
May 04 20:42:36 <ndnihil> you need to manage resources better than noobuntu will
May 04 20:42:59 <Alina-malina> i see, so what it really give you?
May 04 20:43:23 <ndnihil> a properly open platform for mobile communications
May 04 20:43:47 <Alina-malina> any examples?
May 04 20:44:01 <ndnihil> of?
May 04 20:44:16 <Alina-malina> for where you can use that open platform for mobile communications
May 04 20:44:30 <ndnihil> you can use it as a regular phone
May 04 20:44:39 <Alina-malina> but running on debian?
May 04 20:44:42 <ndnihil> yup
May 04 20:44:55 <ndnihil> my daily carry phone these days is an android phone
May 04 20:44:59 <Alina-malina> and you can dig into gsm stuff? like pinging BTS?
May 04 20:45:08 <ndnihil> but I use the moko in the car
May 04 20:45:16 <ndnihil> it thinks its a cd changer
May 04 20:45:24 <Alina-malina> :)
May 04 20:46:01 <Alina-malina> so how yor android and this moko are communicating with each other? wifi? blutoth gsm?
May 04 20:49:00 <Alina-malina> nihil are you therE?
May 04 20:56:18 <Alina-malina> ndnihil, are you there pal?
May 04 20:57:36 <ndnihil> yeah
May 04 20:57:38 <ndnihil> doing other things
May 04 20:57:57 <ndnihil> you can make them communicate over any type of connectivity available
May 04 20:58:23 <ndnihil> I use a combination of stuff I write and freely available tools
May 04 20:58:30 <Alina-malina> do you know about osmocom?
May 04 20:58:34 <ndnihil> nope
May 04 20:58:45 <Alina-malina> ok
May 04 21:00:25 <Alina-malina> ndnihil, so you are a webdeveloper or android app developer more?
May 04 21:00:49 <ndnihil> I'm capable of all that and more
May 04 21:00:55 <ndnihil> but I despise web work
May 04 21:00:57 <ndnihil> hate it
May 04 21:01:23 <Alina-malina> why?
May 04 21:02:22 <ndnihil> boring, broken incompatible technologies, browser interoperability
May 04 21:02:28 <ndnihil> it's all crap
May 04 21:03:29 <Alina-malina> then what you do for living(if you are programming for livng?)
May 04 21:08:09 <Alina-malina> ndnihil, i wish i could know how to programming in java as well, but i am not sure how to choose the right tool for it, i dont have much time for exploring the whole java toolset:)
May 04 21:15:15 <ndnihil> I do lots of stuff for a living
May 04 21:15:19 <ndnihil> programming is just part of it
May 04 21:15:46 <ndnihil> if you want to learn how to properly program, you'll have to spend a lot of time learning
May 04 22:07:33 <Alina-malina> ndnihil, i dont say  idont know how to properly program, i mean i dont programming in java, it is not the same:) What you mean do lots of stuff for living? Like what for example? Maybe wecan work together?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun May 05 02:59:58 2013