**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 19 03:00:00 2014 Jan 19 06:53:48 Where can I buy an OpenMoko phone? I am a newb. Jan 19 06:54:04 testing Jan 19 18:22:43 Can someone tell me about the hardware features of the Neo Freerunner? How long does the battery last between charges? What is the megapixels of the camera? And other camera features? How much memory does the phone support? Key differences between the Samsung Galaxy S4 and NeoFreerunner? Jan 19 18:27:18 Okee: are you serious? Jan 19 18:27:25 Okee: all specs are in the open, even the schematics. Jan 19 18:27:32 There's no camera integrated at all btw. Jan 19 18:29:17 13PaulFertser>08I am a complete newb, and only heard about the phone last night. Do you know how I would contact the manufacturer? Jan 19 18:29:26 Okee: no colour here please! Jan 19 18:29:41 gta02 is no longer manufactured. Jan 19 18:29:52 All the info is at http://wiki.openmoko.org Jan 19 18:30:01 PaulFertser> But gta04 is is isn't it? Jan 19 18:30:42 Okee: don't colour your nick too please. gta04 is in production, yes. Jan 19 18:31:09 Paul> So what is the most recent board? I thought it was gta04? Jan 19 18:31:27 Okee: yes, but it's no longer OpenMoko, it's by Golden Delicious. Jan 19 18:32:34 Paul> Can someone buy the board directly from Golden Delicious? Jan 19 18:33:06 Paul> Yesterday, I heard about Open Moko for the first time. Jan 19 18:33:10 Okee: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/ Jan 19 18:36:30 Paul> I appreciate your patience. I am looking for the dimensions online. Jan 19 18:37:09 Okee: dimensions? Do you mean you want to know how big it is? Jan 19 18:37:16 Okee: the board or the OpenMoko case? Jan 19 18:37:24 Paul> The Open Moko case? Jan 19 18:38:25 Okee: yes, the one gta04 fits in. Jan 19 18:38:39 Paul> What got me interested in all of this is that I am looking for a cell phone where I can run my own distro of Linux natively. I was toying with the idea of rooting a commercial phone that wasn't tied to a commercial plan, but I would like to stay legal, and some of my informants indicate it may not be allowed. Jan 19 18:39:10 Paul>How big is the case? Jan 19 18:39:12 Okee: I use Debian GNU/Linux on my gta02 daily. Jan 19 18:39:31 And I think you can't really run any sane distro on any commercial phone. Jan 19 18:39:43 Okee: there are some used Freerunners available from Golden Delicious Jan 19 18:39:45 Paul> That is good news. I plan on running Debian Linux as well. Jan 19 18:40:17 there are no GTA04s at the moment - but there's a fundraising for the next production batch Jan 19 18:40:18 How much is a new one? The Open-Moko website indicates there are two US dealers. I emailed one of them last night. Jan 19 18:40:34 Okee: no new Freerunners available anymore Jan 19 18:40:46 unless someone has them hidden in some basement Jan 19 18:41:02 Can the GTA04 be run in a different commercial case? S4? Jan 19 18:41:13 see Neo900 - http://neo900.org/ Jan 19 18:41:26 that's basically gta04 in Nokia N900 case Jan 19 18:41:38 but still in development Jan 19 18:41:45 Okee: here're the 3d models of the gta02 case: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models Jan 19 18:43:52 Paul> Hmm. I am a fan of big keys. The Neo900 looks a little bit like a Rasberry Pi. Why the small keys? Jan 19 18:44:27 I need to reboot my XChat program, and will be back in a 30 seconds. Jan 19 18:45:31 I am back, but now known as Urk instead of Okee. Jan 19 18:48:03 Urk: gta02 has only two hardware buttons Jan 19 18:48:33 Paul> What are the two buttons? No keyboard? Touchpad? Jan 19 18:49:07 Urk: can you RTFM a bit about the hardware? Wiki pages can explain that all better than I. Jan 19 19:01:52 Paul> I took a look at the video, and it sounds like the next generation is still open to discussion. What would be the best way to provide feedback on hardware features and design? Should I subscribe to the developer list? Or is that off topic? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJHMXQ3nSt0 Jan 19 19:02:25 I am an avid supporter of large keys -- just like the ones found in an iPhone or a Galaxy S3/S4. Jan 19 19:03:02 Urk: do you know why gta04 uses gta02's case? Jan 19 19:03:26 Paul> Not completely? Why? Jan 19 19:03:27 Urk: long story short: those projects are created by enthusiasts and manufactured in low quantities Jan 19 19:03:47 building new case for the device is *very* expensive Jan 19 19:04:08 dos1++ Jan 19 19:04:49 and manufacturing the devices in low quantities is already expensive to the point where you cannot compete with mass-market targeted devices Jan 19 19:05:23 Well I pledge my $ towards the purchase of the next generation. I am aware that building a case for a device is expensive, and have been involved with previous projects like this. How come no one is making this in the US. As long as you stay away from academia, it is not necessarily cheaper abroad. Engineering labor in Asia is only a little cheaper. The difference is insignificant. Jan 19 19:05:25 that's why these projects reuse already existing cases - GTA04 uses Freerunner's (or Neo1973's) and Neo900 uses N900's Jan 19 19:06:06 I have contacts in the US who could make a case. These contacts were made from the last place I worked at. Jan 19 19:06:16 Urk: gta04/neo900 are actually Europe based (Germany) Jan 19 19:07:07 dos1> Why the small keys in the neo900? Looks a little like a Rasberry Pi. Jan 19 19:07:23 and deisgning and making entirely new mold for the case costs approximately as much as the whole neo900 budget :P Jan 19 19:07:34 Urk: because N900 has those Jan 19 19:07:59 How much is needed to design and make a new case? This is with the understanding you could still use the gta04 i the case. Jan 19 19:08:25 Contacts can't help with the inherently high cost for precision injection molding etc. Jan 19 19:08:37 the very reason of Neo900 existence is "we're going to reuse already existing components as much as possible to make the project feasible at all for such small runs" Jan 19 19:08:56 Also, almost everyone likes n900's case and hw keyboard. Jan 19 19:09:02 What is the minimum size of run that will be undertaken? Jan 19 19:09:04 even when following this idea, estimated price tag for neo900 is around 600-800 EUR Jan 19 19:09:20 Urk: around 200 devices is minimum Jan 19 19:09:31 right now there are 300 "preorders" Jan 19 19:09:52 if we're lucky it might end in 500, maaaaaaaaybeeeee 1000 Jan 19 19:10:32 I am definitely committed to buying a phone, but I don't like the case of the Neo900. Jan 19 19:11:58 You indicated everyone likes the case in the neo900. Have you actually done market surveys? Jan 19 19:12:27 There is no question people would buy a phone that isn't locked into someone else's agenda, but I am skeptical about small keys, without a marketing survey to support it. Jan 19 19:12:46 n900's case seems like the best choice for such project right now (you have to also keep in mind things like display, availability of components, documentation, existing community...) Jan 19 19:13:09 we don't need marketing survey to know that we cannot afford changing the keys at all Jan 19 19:13:32 even I personally would like them changed to 4-row qwerty :P Jan 19 19:14:05 you know, small steps Jan 19 19:14:26 we don't have great budgets behind our backs to support any amazing idea we can come up with Jan 19 19:14:52 we're trying to evaluate what's realistic and then trying to do that Jan 19 19:15:16 No one asked me for my advice, but I wonder if looking for more way to get more money would be a better route to go than to trying to economize. As for getting a larger number of preorders, I am fairly certain that could be expanded beyond 200. 200 is pretty small, and there are a lot of people who are looking to escape from the current market offerings. Jan 19 19:15:17 if it turns out to be successful, next projects will be better Jan 19 19:16:14 Urk: yes - and at the same time they are complaining "700 EUR for single core 1GHz with 1GB RAM? no way!" Jan 19 19:17:06 of course we could make the spec better - but we need more customers for that Jan 19 19:17:45 so when customers say "I'd buy it if it would have better specs", we're in the circle Jan 19 19:17:59 dos1> Are we talking about 700 EUR for a production run? Jan 19 19:18:47 600-700 EUR is an expected price for the final board (if you want to upgrade your old N900), and ~150 EUR more if you want complete device Jan 19 19:19:35 and that assumes almost zero profit Jan 19 19:20:19 (but price drops with more orders - if we could reach 1000, it would already drop by some 100 euros I guess) Jan 19 19:21:21 dos1> What about using a Rasberry Pi, or something with Arduino? Or am I not seeing reality? Jan 19 19:21:42 Urk: they are not suited for mobile purposes Jan 19 19:21:59 you can take raspi, attach LCD, modem and battery to it - why not? Jan 19 19:22:12 but think for instance about power consumption Jan 19 19:23:03 this one can already ruin it, and that's only the first thing that came into my mind Jan 19 19:23:30 there's also another obvious showstopper - raspberry pi is not free Jan 19 19:23:57 you cannot even boot it without closed blobs Jan 19 19:27:11 dos1> Ok, I was just trying to look at options. I took a look at the specs for the R-PI, and there are definitely power issues: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4784 From what you are saying, it sounds like the issue of the board is resolved, and cost of designing a better case is the determinant. Jan 19 19:28:29 How much more do you need for 4-row qwerty case? Jan 19 19:28:48 few more zeros in the budget ;) Jan 19 19:30:20 Well you can still count me for the next production run. I would like to buy one, but don't like the neo900 case and keyboard. Jan 19 19:30:24 well, maybe I'm exaggerating, but at least one zero would have to be added for sure Jan 19 19:31:24 still, imo it's the best thing that's available at all Jan 19 19:31:46 and there's no future planned yet Jan 19 19:31:56 there might be new project, there might not be any Jan 19 19:32:00 it all depends Jan 19 19:33:24 Last night I read some commentary on Samsung's interest in Tizen. It sounds like a step in the right direction, but I still don't like getting locked in, whether it is Tizen or any other distro. So the OpenMoko project is the only one that makes sense. Jan 19 19:33:38 There is definitely a market for a completely open phone. Jan 19 19:34:25 I agree that if you could give completely working, tested and modern-spec matching open phone - for sure you would get a lot of sales Jan 19 19:34:44 but there's a looong way for such small project to reach that point Jan 19 19:35:07 and we're just making the first steps in that direction Jan 19 19:35:32 A couple of the smaller DSL carriers, in my area of the world, attempted to offer wireless in the public band range, but they ran into trouble with interference. They didn't have the tech support staff to support it, and ended up selling off their equipment to another company, who is doing ok. These smaller DSL carriers are still in business, and installing fiber optic. Jan 19 19:37:33 I will keep in touch. This is a great project. I absolutely despise the current situation with the major networks, and hardware manufacturers. Jan 19 19:38:39 dos1> Got to run, but feel free to IM me for my email, so that you know how to get in contact with me for the next order. Jan 19 19:40:13 dos1> Quick question: what is the projected battery life for the next Neo Freerunner? Jan 19 19:40:36 you mean gta04? Jan 19 19:40:46 dos1> yes. Jan 19 19:41:09 hard to tell - there are still things that can be massively improved Jan 19 19:41:26 dos1> When I say battery life, I am referring to the amount of time between charges: how long the unit will run on batteries. Jan 19 19:41:53 right now it's rather poor, it often needs to be charged every day Jan 19 19:42:05 but that might change Jan 19 19:43:06 with Freerunner battery time was also poor at the begining, but now it can even reach week Jan 19 19:43:15 dos1> What type of batteries are you using? I am curious about how voltage is transferred from the battery to the board? Are you using an Amplifier? Jan 19 19:43:26 (keep in mind that Freerunner is already 5 years old) Jan 19 19:43:44 li-ion Jan 19 19:43:58 I only discovered your project yesterday, and glad that I did. There is a serious need in the marketplace for something like this. Jan 19 19:44:01 and no idea about the internals - I'm rather software oriented Jan 19 19:45:19 dos1> Do you know what the voltage of the board is? And what the voltage of the keyboard is? Jan 19 19:45:54 the batteries are 3.7V Jan 19 19:46:08 that's all I can tell Jan 19 19:46:31 I haven't looked at the specs, so I probably shouldn't be pestering you so much. I am just trying to get an idea of the way things work. Jan 19 19:46:32 but you might find what you need in schematics Jan 19 19:46:39 Interchangeable with the Nokia BL-5C Jan 19 19:47:22 ( One-way, Openmoko will take Nokia battery but not the reverse ) Jan 19 19:48:52 Kirun> I looked up the specs, and the Nokia BL-5C has an average battery life of 7 years: http://askville.amazon.com/long-Nokia-BL-5C-battery-normal-conditions/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=35196515 Jan 19 19:49:10 Oophs. Meant to say 7 hours. Freudian slip. Jan 19 19:50:33 how is battery life attached to the battery itself instead of the device? Jan 19 19:50:56 if the device takes 10mA, it will last longer than when it takes 100mA Jan 19 19:51:24 also, openmoko batteries have slightly better capacity (1200mAh) Jan 19 19:52:17 dos1> I am still on board for buying one, when you get close to doing an order. Jan 19 19:52:25 Got to run, and will be back later. Jan 19 19:53:16 Urk: when you're back, see https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5 for GTA04 and https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Neo900 for Neo900 Jan 19 19:59:13 there's also a very nice presentation about Neo900 from OHSW which explains a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPmXxq1MdQ Jan 19 20:03:22 dos1> May I IM you? Jan 19 20:03:38 sure Jan 19 20:08:03 dos1> Not sure how to IM someone on XChat in Debian. Windows stole my childhood. Jan 19 20:08:12 I am used to using mIRC. Jan 19 20:08:25 /msg dos1 message? ;) Jan 19 21:56:13 /query someone **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 20 02:59:59 2014