**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 29 02:59:57 2009 Apr 30 00:56:56 If anyone's around, I just had a look at the file http://www.services.digitus.de/data/download/firmware/gpl/GPL_DA-70900.tar.gz Apr 30 00:57:17 I use that to build stuff... Apr 30 00:57:24 or is it a new one? Apr 30 00:57:37 No, it's the same one. Apr 30 00:57:45 But what just astonished me is... Apr 30 00:58:02 it contains the full Sigma Designs EM86xx SDK - enough to build a video player from scratch, Apr 30 00:58:06 Yeah, it sets up the build environment nicely, is what i have used to compile various little tools Apr 30 00:58:12 your own GUI, your own (improved playback) etc. Apr 30 00:58:25 have you loaded up the build? Apr 30 00:58:43 I think Eric Fry is the only one so far that has said he managed to get the Wiz into a media player Apr 30 00:58:49 No, I haven't. I don't have a Beyonwiz, I'm mucking around with other boards. Apr 30 00:59:01 i ran out of time mucking about with it Apr 30 00:59:12 Just surprised to see that file contains the SDK, which other released files don't. Apr 30 00:59:22 The DP-H1 is the cheapest option for getting a base Beyonwiz system. Apr 30 00:59:23 let me check i have that one Apr 30 00:59:59 yep GPL_DA-70900.tar.gz Apr 30 01:00:26 18th June last year I d/l that.. wow time flies argh Apr 30 01:00:30 197188195 bytes? Apr 30 01:00:40 That's the one. Apr 30 01:00:52 197,188,195 Apr 30 01:00:58 aha, one and the same it appears Apr 30 01:00:58 Look in sources/dl/mrua_EM8620L_2.5.113.0_dev.arm.bootirq.tgz inside it Apr 30 01:01:45 i was mucking about with a few toolchains trying to find the right combo, there was a tvix one also avail Apr 30 01:01:51 And inside that, samples/ contains all the video player code samples with which to make your own applications. Apr 30 01:02:04 Which by the way are nearly the same on other Sigma chips :-) Apr 30 01:02:35 yeah, like i said, Eric Fry I believe built a media player f/w that works fine on the Beyonwiz Apr 30 01:03:03 which is unusual in itself, as the wiz has a separate HDMI chipset... maybe he used the component output Apr 30 01:03:23 That separate chip, I'm guessing, is a Silicon Image SiI9030? Apr 30 01:03:31 um Apr 30 01:04:02 opening wiki Apr 30 01:04:04 The Beyonwiz hardware is very close to a reference board Apr 30 01:04:31 http://www.openwiz.org/wiki/Hardware Apr 30 01:04:54 yeah, just the tuners is a bit out of the ordinary Apr 30 01:05:12 Silicon Image PanelLink HDMI transmitter (Sil9030CTU) Apr 30 01:05:15 That's right, the SiI9030 is mentioned on the wiki. The SDK samples/dvi_hdmi.c has code for that chip. Apr 30 01:06:49 Anyway, I just wanted to mention that the link referenced under "Compiler Toolchain" has a full Sigma SDK, not just a useful toolchain in it. Apr 30 01:06:59 In case someone wanted to add that to the wiki somewhere. Apr 30 01:07:24 I'm not sure if that file counts as a "public release" enough to suit "We intend to only host software binaries which can be built from publicly available source code, or which have approval from the copyright holders where source code is not available." Apr 30 01:07:36 Feel free to create yourself an account on the wiki and add as much info as you want. Apr 30 01:08:37 It would be best if we can base any builds on GPL releases from Beyonwiz - but there aren't any :-( Apr 30 01:09:28 I wonder why virtually nobody releases GPL source for their Sigma systems. Apr 30 01:09:47 company pride Apr 30 01:10:15 Well not really, because they nearly always leave the GPL bits untouched and edit the proprietary bits they don't have to release anyway :-) Apr 30 01:10:19 I'd say that since this SDK is part of the digitus GPL release, it should be treated as a public release. Apr 30 01:11:02 Sigma Designs licensing and NDAs are so painful that most people don't want to release anything. Apr 30 01:12:23 I've been through the exercise and Sigma won't even tell you what you will get in a development kit until you sign NDAs and pay about US$10k in licensing fees. Up until then, they just tell you you will get "all you need" Apr 30 01:12:56 it is a shame Apr 30 01:13:28 because most Sigma chipset boxes have the same bugs and lame issues, like terrible jpg slideshows etc Apr 30 01:14:23 I think a lot of these companies want to keep everything close to their chest because of all sorts intellectual property claims. I'm sure that the Sigma code has various oppen source components all the way through it. Apr 30 01:14:48 Proper compliance (without releasing their own software) would probably be a lot of work. Apr 30 01:15:55 I've seen Sigma SDK being used be a licensee (not me...), and I know proper compliance wouldn't be hard at all. I don't understand why nobody does. Apr 30 01:16:25 There has been plenty of history of litigation (and a lot of intellectual "crosspolenation") and keeping everything hidden just makes it that much harder for their competitors to sue them out of business. Apr 30 01:18:41 Also, from what I've seen, virtually all the bugs are due to the poor quality "samples" code which isn't really meant to be used for full applications :-( Apr 30 01:21:34 Seems the sample code supports TrueType fonts. Apr 30 01:21:43 That would be nice to have. Apr 30 01:42:58 Oh yeah. Whenever I go from Google to any of the Beyonwiz forums where deveplment stuff is dicussed, it says "You have been banned from this forum." Apr 30 01:43:34 Are they banning all the interesting threads? Just wondering. I've read the first page of a couple of them through Google's cache. That's how I found Openwiz actually. Apr 30 01:43:53 I am banned to the Wiz forums from work also Apr 30 01:44:11 I think they limit the IP addresses that can access to perhaps stop spammers Apr 30 01:44:46 because my work is a US/Canadian company, it has a 47.x.x.x subnet which maybe the Wiz forums blocks Apr 30 01:44:55 i access via RDS to my home PC now Apr 30 01:45:27 Dunno. The forums are outsourced to a small company in Brisbane. Apr 30 01:45:55 the weird thing is i can access the DPG topfield forums just fine... Apr 30 01:46:04 just not the DPG Wiz forums Apr 30 01:46:06 At least, that was the case last time I checked the trail of banners/credits Apr 30 01:46:18 Different software config perhaps. Apr 30 01:47:45 You should let Beyonwiz know about it. It's probably something they might want to change, if they are banning all users coming through a proxy or some portal. Apr 30 01:48:09 doesn't worry me really Apr 30 01:48:22 i spend far too long on those damn forums Apr 30 01:50:32 I'm in the UK. I just assumed I was banned for either being an anonymous user, or because all the threads mentioning third party development were banned if they are closed-minded. Apr 30 01:50:49 they haven't banned any threads Apr 30 01:51:14 beta threads are blocked to beta users only, but these wouldn't even be google cached Apr 30 01:52:08 Do you get blocked even if you register? Apr 30 01:52:36 I haven't tried registering. Apr 30 01:53:33 Index page or any page I get this: You have been banned from this forum. Apr 30 01:53:34 Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information. Apr 30 01:53:39 The IP bans may go away if you do. It's fairly painless and I haven't received any spam to the email I used to register. Apr 30 01:54:04 login/logout page gives me the same message, so I can't log in from work Apr 30 01:54:28 Sequence of events: Looking for Sigma Designs open source stuff. Found mention of digitus.de files. Found the Sigma SDK in there, quite surprised, wondering what people might thing and is it "public" enough. Found them mentioned on beyonwiz forum. Found myself blocked, but Google cache revealing link to Openwiz. Visit Openwiz wiki. Come to IRC channel. Saying hello :-) Apr 30 01:54:35 I'm sure that this is inadvertent. You should let them know so it can be fixed. Apr 30 01:55:27 Ok, for the last 10 seconds I'm waiting for the "register" link to actually respond. Apr 30 01:55:44 yeah, i had 10sec wait for the login, then the banned Apr 30 01:56:05 i am sure they are blocking ip address ranges (or accepting ranges perhaps) Apr 30 01:56:08 It's being very slow. It was quick to tell me I'm banned an hour ago :-) Apr 30 01:56:43 Great. The "register" link leads to the same "You have been banned from this forum" message. Apr 30 01:56:49 Are you using a UK ISP that uses any filtering / mandatory proxies? Apr 30 01:57:02 my work certainly isn't Apr 30 01:57:13 we have direct access to the net Apr 30 01:57:13 The message has a full forum look with Beyonwiz logo etc... Apr 30 01:57:22 It's not filtered by my ISP, certainly. Apr 30 01:57:23 tonymy01_: Your work almost certainly is - they just don't tell you ;-) Apr 30 01:57:30 Also I've never noticed my ISP filtering anything else. Apr 30 01:59:14 From what I hear, many UK ISPs have implemented filtering. All traffic from a filtered ISP could appear to the Beyonwiz server to originate from the same IP address, at which point something may blacklist that IP due to what looks like a denial of service attack. Apr 30 01:59:16 what is your subnet, i am just sending a message to one of the admins Apr 30 02:01:28 Ooh, I can access it (using "lynx" :-) from my server.... Apr 30 02:01:36 hehe Apr 30 02:02:01 yeah, i setup a ssl pipe to my home router and a proxy on the home router, for when I am too lazy to fire up the remote deskop sharing Apr 30 02:02:13 (or the home PC has crashed) Apr 30 02:03:01 My home IP, where it is banned, is 82.5.165.1. Apr 30 02:03:03 actually RDS uses this pipe also Apr 30 02:03:18 is your mask 255.255.255.0? Apr 30 02:03:44 i guess your isp would have a bit bigger range than that mind you :-) Apr 30 02:04:00 I will let them know 82.x.x.x I suppose Apr 30 02:04:15 The DSL/cable router would use a PPP connection, so the mask would be /32 Apr 30 02:04:28 I have no idea what the netmask is. The only reason I know the IP is by looking at it from the server I'm connected to :-) Apr 30 02:04:35 At the home end, I don't have access to the router. Apr 30 02:05:05 The IP changes regularly, it's not useful to ban just that one IP peteru_ :-) Apr 30 02:05:06 82.5.165.x should be enough Apr 30 02:05:09 btw, there isn't a huge amount more to learn from the forums Apr 30 02:05:30 most of the good bits of any discussion end up on openwiz Apr 30 02:06:03 It's always good to give the company and its users the impression good stuff is happening in open source though. Apr 30 02:06:15 I try to get info onto OpenWiz when I can, but we really need some active development. Apr 30 02:07:19 I know for a fact that with kernel improvements you can make it play higher bitrate files much better. The hardware decoder is more capable than the kernel (that it uses) is able to read from disk. Apr 30 02:07:46 That bit, at least, is open to improvement using purely GPL code. Apr 30 02:08:37 Yeah, I've been asking fro the GPL bits and kernel in particular for years. Apr 30 02:08:50 I noticed about 5 separate projects to develop open source code for various Sigma-based video players. There doesn't seem to be much connection between them. Apr 30 02:08:51 It is certainly a capable chip, when you look at the spec's, it doesn't look much different to the 863x series Apr 30 02:09:00 There's plenty of scope for improvement. Apr 30 02:09:27 in terms of supporting 1080p for example... our Beyonwiz hiccups on most 1080p material, but varies each f/w release because of the frigging with the decoding the Wiz guys do Apr 30 02:10:14 I don't think anyone has the compiler for the coprocessors, which is where interesting stuff could happen too, like accelerated JPEG decode Apr 30 02:10:25 I noticed, by chance, with a different device (but based on EM8620L), that the bit-rate it can play well is much higher over the network than from disk locally. Apr 30 02:10:41 obviously the memory management makes a diff for the 863x + series Apr 30 02:10:49 MMUs are very good things :-) Apr 30 02:10:56 So is the larger memory :-) Apr 30 02:11:08 The Beyonwiz guys tuned the disk subsystem somewhat (and USB too) to perform well - better than network anyway. Apr 30 02:11:30 they keep compromising the network to ensure stability Apr 30 02:11:31 But they are using FAT32 :-( Apr 30 02:11:34 There is accelerated JPEG decoding for 8622 and later, if you can find the SDK around, I believe. Marketing materials mention it. Apr 30 02:13:12 the issue the wiz has in this department is that it can take 5 or 6 seconds of loading with a black screen and spinning hour glass before the image is displayed (even longer over wireless). So doing a slideshow is pointless as most of the show is watching a black screen with hourglass Apr 30 02:13:49 I can't believe they can' do something to pre-load & cache the image somehow while keeping the frame buffere of the previous image up Apr 30 02:14:02 wow, typos galore Apr 30 02:14:03 tonymy01: That is definitely possible! Apr 30 02:14:27 but focussing on jpg is lame, but one area where many people complain Apr 30 02:14:31 The trouble is the sample apps don't do that, and everyone just uses the sample apps instead of using the SDK properly. Apr 30 02:14:42 It would require programming effort for what is very little market value. Prime candidate for 3rd party developers to fix using open source. Apr 30 02:15:13 It's not worth their while financially to fix it, but there are plenty of people out there willing and able to fix the problem. Apr 30 02:15:16 Yes, I agree. Nobody has the energy to fix all the annoyances and poor looking features by themselves, but with a bit of collaboration.... Apr 30 02:15:30 Especially as all the Sigma chips are nearly identical as far as I can see. Apr 30 02:15:48 Just variations in speed and switch from ARM to MIPS :-) Apr 30 02:15:57 But otherwise, where it matters with video etc., the same. Apr 30 02:16:22 the other issue they have is the DVD playback is pitiful Apr 30 02:16:23 C/C++ code abstracts the CPU architecture switch. Apr 30 02:16:37 You can actually pre-load a few JPEGs and cross-fade or other fancy transitions :-) Apr 30 02:16:53 there are a LOT of sigma based DVD players out there, and they work a whole lot better than the Beyonwiz effort Apr 30 02:17:35 I guess it is because they primarily focussed on the PVR side of things, and used the sample tools for everything else due to the time and effort they didn't want to use. Apr 30 02:18:35 Really the right thing would be to use the SDK along with an open source shell like Videolan, Xine or Mplayer, using the SDK as a decoding back end. Apr 30 02:19:07 But they (Sigma) got so in trouble for ripping Xvid code some years ago, I guess that's far too scary :-) Apr 30 02:21:42 The other issue with the wiz is that it has run out of flash space to do much more. But someone clued up could write a loader that works from the HDD to fire up f/w images off the HDD instead I would say. There have been a lot of people doing the same for the Topfield 5K (no sigma based) and it can do a lot of things now thanks to the development efforts from German, UK & Finland, with a spashing of help from an Aussie or two. Apr 30 02:24:07 Flash storage space is a not a huge issue - RAM is a bigger problem. Apr 30 02:24:14 anyway, lunch time for me Apr 30 02:24:28 I should have some breakfast. Apr 30 02:24:32 :-) Apr 30 02:24:32 bed time for me - 3:30am here. Apr 30 02:24:34 :-) Apr 30 02:24:55 I'm out of coffee beans, so I can't do anything else Apr 30 02:25:02 let us know how you get on jamie Apr 30 02:25:04 Need to walk to shop... **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 30 02:59:57 2009