**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 03 02:59:58 2015 Oct 03 04:25:47 _trine: not yet, waiting on paulfertser to provide a more all inclusive patch for pkgconfig stuff. I looked over svn and it really is not that bad that I would rush this. Oct 03 04:27:10 someone with rights please merge this https://github.com/openwrt/packages/pull/1831 Oct 03 08:33:48 <_trine> Zero_Chaos, its been fixed Oct 03 08:35:01 <_trine> Zero_Chaos, http://patchwork.ozlabs.org/patch/525244/ Oct 03 09:40:34 build #104 of cobalt is complete: Failure [failed shell_10] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/cobalt/builds/104 Oct 03 09:43:15 build #104 of cns21xx is complete: Failure [failed shell_10] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/cns21xx/builds/104 Oct 03 09:46:06 build #104 of orion is complete: Failure [failed shell_10] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/orion/builds/104 Oct 03 09:50:52 jow r47103 trunk/include/toplevel.mk * toplevel.mk: drop LD_LIBRARY_PATH overrides Oct 03 10:11:04 build #104 of ramips.mt7621 is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/ramips.mt7621/builds/104 Oct 03 10:14:08 build #104 of brcm47xx is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/brcm47xx/builds/104 Oct 03 10:15:08 build #104 of ramips.mt7628 is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/ramips.mt7628/builds/104 Oct 03 10:17:53 build #105 of brcm47xx.legacy is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/brcm47xx.legacy/builds/105 Oct 03 10:18:13 build #103 of pxa is complete: Failure [failed shell_10] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/pxa/builds/103 Oct 03 12:23:12 how can I get the installed size of a package? Oct 03 12:23:26 the size reported by "opkg info" seems to be the compressed size Oct 03 12:56:42 zorun: opkg list --size , 3rd column Oct 03 13:03:30 jow_laptop: is this a new option? it doesn't seem to work on CC Oct 03 13:03:39 zorun: ah right, trunk only Oct 03 13:03:46 on CC you can extract the info manually Oct 03 13:03:50 ah, right Oct 03 13:03:51 how? Oct 03 13:04:01 Installed-Size in the control file? Oct 03 13:06:33 zcat /tmp/opkg-lists/* | sed -ne "/Package: foo$/ { n; n; n; n; n; n; s/Installed-Size: //p; }" Oct 03 13:06:44 replace "foo" with the desired name Oct 03 13:07:29 cool, thanks Oct 03 13:07:37 and I suggest a "q" after ...//p; Oct 03 13:07:45 to end the sed program after the first match Oct 03 13:09:22 hmm, is Installed-Size accurate? Oct 03 13:09:34 its detemrined from the gzip compressed contents Oct 03 13:09:44 since jffs2 transparently compressed Oct 03 13:09:51 ok Oct 03 13:10:05 that's why binaries take more size than what Installed-Size suggest :) Oct 03 13:10:13 Installed-Size: 4726 Oct 03 13:10:13 -rwxr-xr-x 1 zorun users 8,3K 23 sept. 2014 usr/sbin/mini_sendmail Oct 03 13:10:41 so actually, the size of the ipk file is a pretty good indication already? Oct 03 13:10:44 thanks jow_laptop Oct 03 13:11:17 zorun: yes Oct 03 13:11:44 zorun: for fun you could "gzip" usr/sbin/mini_sendmail and see how large it is after Oct 03 13:12:43 4534 Oct 03 13:12:45 quite close :) Oct 03 13:13:01 (of course it depends on the compression level of gzipĆ  Oct 03 13:26:04 * zorun has revamped http://wiki.openwrt.org/doc/howto/smtp.client Oct 03 14:19:58 <_trine> another openwrt GPL violator http://www.chaneve.cn/ Oct 03 14:20:21 <_trine> but no one cares ! Oct 03 14:34:02 Looks like even OpenWRT devs don't care. :( Oct 03 14:35:13 we can't care about every shit Oct 03 14:35:22 Too bad. Oct 03 14:35:38 especially try suing the chinese over intellectual property Oct 03 14:35:52 yeah, China .. Oct 03 14:35:53 no time, no money, no interest, no chance of success Oct 03 14:36:03 they made a copy of BMW X5 Oct 03 14:36:05 BMW sued Oct 03 14:36:09 = waste of sparse resources Oct 03 14:36:10 and lost Oct 03 14:37:45 Later on, emerging countries from 3rd world will copy from China to flood the market with their couterfeits, too. Oct 03 14:38:04 so let me rephrase (was a bit angry, sorry) - its futile to care for or even try to sue against random chinese backyard producers when it comes to gpl violations Oct 03 14:38:52 we could stop buying their shit, but ... :) Oct 03 14:39:11 what would we have to gain by attempting to sue GPL violators like this? Oct 03 14:39:41 and I'm increasingly getting annoyed by people demanding stuff from us, calling us names or complaining about us not caring about their personal problem of the day Oct 03 14:39:50 maybe because I'm getting older ;) Oct 03 14:39:55 haters gonna hate ;) Oct 03 14:40:25 That's too bad. Oct 03 14:41:05 <_trine> pehaps we should ban the whole of China from accessing the forum and wiki Oct 03 14:41:05 <_trine> perhaps* Oct 03 14:41:16 Why not. Oct 03 14:41:20 that doesn't help Oct 03 14:41:25 it's the same with IRC and ban evasion Oct 03 14:41:33 any kid can use a proxy or VPN Oct 03 14:41:43 or something else Oct 03 14:41:55 <_trine> stintel, yes but it sends a message Oct 03 14:42:02 also, we'd probably screw over more people with legitimate interest than people trying to rip us off Oct 03 14:42:02 Sure, but that will add a layer of deterence. Oct 03 14:42:15 _trine: unfortunately it send the wrong message Oct 03 14:43:02 <_trine> nbd, then let the ones who have been screwed complain in their own language to the suppliers Oct 03 14:43:22 agree, Oct 03 14:43:41 <_trine> I dont notice any Chinese users complaining about chinese GPL violations Oct 03 14:44:20 so people in china with no connections to dodgy manufacturers that would get screwed over by us blocking access are supposed to complain to other chinese companies and blame them for making us do a futile attempt at preventing them from screwing us over? Oct 03 14:44:30 that logic seems a bit twisted to me Oct 03 14:44:48 yeah the world doesn't work that way Oct 03 14:44:49 <_trine> nbd, it sounds quite logical to me Oct 03 14:44:53 they would just use dd-wrt instead Oct 03 14:44:55 probably Oct 03 14:45:00 <_trine> stintel, lol Oct 03 14:45:54 May be, even http://www.sveasoft.com/ Oct 03 14:46:09 <_trine> Oh James could make a come back Oct 03 14:46:27 anyway, sending a message to all chinese users "screw you for being chinese" will not happen on my watch Oct 03 14:46:33 especially since it wouldn't help anybody Oct 03 14:47:03 <_trine> nbd then we get what we deserve Oct 03 14:47:29 which is? Oct 03 14:47:58 <_trine> jow_laptop, screwed Oct 03 14:48:12 <_trine> let him without sin bend over first Oct 03 14:48:29 by cheap plastic routers that otherwise wouldn't be on the marked in the first place? Oct 03 14:48:34 btw, did you read about that cubic bug that google found and fixed? Oct 03 14:48:41 _trine: what do you think would be the effect of banning chinese users? Oct 03 14:49:09 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09/29/google_cubists_fix_congestion_control_for_faster_tcp/?mt=1443883745559 Oct 03 14:49:41 _trine: and i mean actual measurable effect aside from just 'having sent a message' Oct 03 14:49:46 <_trine> nbd, an upsurge in complaints made by Chinese people to Chinese suppliers relating to the reason of GPL violations Oct 03 14:50:06 i think that's a bit naive Oct 03 14:50:36 <_trine> at the moment none of the Chinese as far as i can see are complaining in fact they might well be condoning it all Oct 03 14:50:46 https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/patch/516122/ and https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/patch/516123 Oct 03 14:50:54 even still, users that care about openwrt are not going to be happy with devices where they just get a binary build from the manufacturer Oct 03 14:51:02 maybe they should be added to openwrt ? Oct 03 14:51:04 regardless of whether they're chinese or not Oct 03 14:51:21 _trine: "as far as i can see" is the relevant part Oct 03 14:51:31 _trine: how do you know if people are complaining to the manufacturer or not? Oct 03 14:51:44 <_trine> nbd the main thing it could do is to bring the shining light of publicity on what these manufacturers are doing Oct 03 14:52:00 and you think they give a fuck? Oct 03 14:52:31 <_trine> I think they might depending on how bright the light got Oct 03 14:52:57 i think you're overestimating the relevance of this in the big picture Oct 03 14:53:01 <_trine> and there is only one way to find out Oct 03 14:53:42 <_trine> its just my twopeneth anyway Oct 03 14:53:58 you can create as much of a fuss as you want, bringing the shining light of publicity to them, but here's a practical reason why we will not block chinese users: Oct 03 14:54:03 I contacted the seller of this (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/NEW-1200Mbps-802-11-AC-Router-MT7620A-2-4GHz-5GHz-OPEN-WRT-Router-WIFI-Router-CE/32329796053.html) and the response I got was: Oct 03 14:54:05 Hello, Oct 03 14:54:05 are you need the router's firmware?If so we can provide, but as a manufacturer, our engineers are not willing to provide the source code.I hope you can understand. Oct 03 14:54:05 thank you Oct 03 14:54:10 we've been getting good patches and good test feedback from several chinese developers Oct 03 14:54:27 <_trine> I certainly shall not be falling out with anyone over it that's for sure Oct 03 14:54:27 and to me that's much more important than a bunch of crappy freeloading chinese vendors Oct 03 14:57:13 <_trine> nbd, why dont we have a message about Chinese GPL violations at the top of each forum page as a line of embarrassment Oct 03 14:57:35 +1. Oct 03 14:57:40 pfft Oct 03 14:57:47 there are enough non-chinese vendors that do it too Oct 03 14:57:57 exactly Oct 03 14:58:22 <_trine> stintel, are there ? Oct 03 14:58:25 sure Oct 03 14:58:28 <_trine> who Oct 03 14:58:29 sagem -> french Oct 03 14:58:33 ubiquiti Oct 03 14:58:34 mikrotik Oct 03 14:58:37 afair Oct 03 14:58:40 to name a few Oct 03 14:58:59 I tried to do something about sagem with help from gpl-violations.org Oct 03 14:59:08 they told it would be difficult Oct 03 14:59:18 Mazilo, _trine: why don't you start by creating a "OpenWrt GPL Violation Hall of Shame" in the wiki? Oct 03 14:59:22 and in the end completely ignored the rest of my mails Oct 03 14:59:48 Mazilo, _trine: preferably with quoted responses of how they try to explain that they won't release the source code Oct 03 14:59:50 nbd: Not a bad idea. Oct 03 15:00:02 <_trine> stintel, then I wonder why there is such a thing as a GPL in the first place Oct 03 15:00:19 if I ever win euro millions I'll hire an army of lawyers to go after each of them :) Oct 03 15:00:21 <_trine> whats the point if its not defended Oct 03 15:00:51 _trine: the point is that even if it's not defended, there is strong incentive to cooperate Oct 03 15:00:56 obviously not strong enough for everybody Oct 03 15:01:01 but strong enough for most Oct 03 15:01:11 bigger companies usually play nice Oct 03 15:02:15 <_trine> nbd, but my guess it those that do cooperate would do so in disregard of whether or not a GPL existed Oct 03 15:02:27 <_trine> /s/it/is Oct 03 15:03:23 stintel: I reckon Walmart is one example that always plays nice. Oct 03 15:03:24 _trine: my guess is that the GPL made a big contribution in shaping that kind of cooperation Oct 03 15:03:53 <_trine> nbd, well your guess is as good as mine I guess Oct 03 15:03:54 <_trine> :) Oct 03 15:04:02 lot's of guessing going on :) Oct 03 15:04:11 why don't we stop this discussion and start fixing bugs instead Oct 03 15:04:12 ;P Oct 03 15:04:33 there's certainly evidence that many big western companies don't like to risk import bans or copyright lawsuits by willfully infringing on the license rights Oct 03 15:04:43 so there's evidence that the GPL helped there Oct 03 15:05:07 I can see that. Oct 03 15:05:54 <_trine> nbd, but how long will that last if suddenly they discover that nothing happens if they decide not to abide by the terms of the GPL Oct 03 15:07:04 <_trine> after all abiding by the terms of the GPL carries a financial cost to each company Oct 03 15:07:26 _trine: don't act like the current situation is new in any way Oct 03 15:07:33 that kind of stuff has been going on for decades Oct 03 15:07:54 <_trine> I know its getting more prevalent in China Oct 03 15:08:09 how do you know that? Oct 03 15:08:50 a few individual cases that you stumbled upon are not evidence that the whole thing is getting more prevalent Oct 03 15:09:31 <_trine> by seeing all the new Chinese vendors advertising new products and how the great majority of them if not all of them refuse to abide by the terms of the GPL Oct 03 15:09:54 how many did you look at and check if they are violating the GPL? Oct 03 15:10:05 and how many were there before? Oct 03 15:10:25 <_trine> can anyone name 1 Chinese vendor who does fully abide by the terms of the GPL Oct 03 15:10:47 <_trine> just 1 Oct 03 15:11:06 <_trine> anyone will do Oct 03 15:11:34 <_trine> I would like to test them Oct 03 15:11:57 http://www.tp-link.com/en/gpl-code.html tp-link? Oct 03 15:12:35 <_trine> even tp-link who are quite reasonable dont fully abide by the terms of the GPL Oct 03 15:12:44 what is missing? Oct 03 15:13:27 <_trine> ask nbd he deals with them Oct 03 15:14:09 i don't remember any specific tp-link gpl violation Oct 03 15:14:16 most of the stuff that i needed, i found in their gpl tarballs Oct 03 15:14:30 <_trine> but is it all there Oct 03 15:14:49 <_trine> what about AC drivers Oct 03 15:14:58 i don't know. maybe some things are not there and you'd have to get them via source code offer Oct 03 15:15:01 AC drivers are not GPL Oct 03 15:15:11 so they're not releasing the source code Oct 03 15:15:29 in fact they can't, since the license that they get those drivers under prevent that Oct 03 15:15:43 <_trine> it was just a question Oct 03 15:16:17 and what i said was just an answer ;) Oct 03 15:16:42 <_trine> sometimes I wonder if the reason for not giving up the source code is that it so damned awful Oct 03 15:17:03 that's sometimes part of the reason, yes Oct 03 15:17:41 another reason is the fairy tale belief in 'intellectual property' (imaginary property) Oct 03 15:18:17 <_trine> nbd, is that why programmers are all destined to be poor people :) Oct 03 15:18:54 <_trine> i suppose they could eat cake Oct 03 15:18:55 the signal to noise ratio in communication (also called substance to bullshit ratio) decreases with every level you go up in the company hierarchy Oct 03 15:19:13 and it has some nasty outliers like legal or marketing department Oct 03 15:20:48 <_trine> not to worry at least we have aired the discussion Oct 03 15:20:49 <_trine> its a start Oct 03 15:21:49 <_trine> every cloud has a silver lining as they say so when the new FCC rules kick in I suppose we will be glad China pays no heed to them Oct 03 16:35:14 nbd: did you hear about the tcp_cubic bug? Oct 03 23:31:26 stintel: didn't you already mention that? Oct 03 23:41:25 build #97 of kirkwood is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/kirkwood/builds/97 Oct 04 01:33:26 build #104 of ipq806x is complete: Failure [failed shell_14] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/ipq806x/builds/104 Oct 04 01:52:08 build #104 of imx6 is complete: Failure [failed shell_14] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/imx6/builds/104 Oct 04 02:08:05 build #95 of ar71xx is complete: Failure [failed compile_5] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/ar71xx/builds/95 Oct 04 02:11:36 build #103 of ppc40x is complete: Failure [failed shell_10] Build details are at http://buildbot.openwrt.org:8010/builders/ppc40x/builds/103 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 04 02:59:58 2015