**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Aug 01 02:59:56 2008 Aug 01 05:17:37 hey, I've opkg install task-openmoko-games, and it worked fine but I can't seem to find any of the icons for the new stuff any suggestions where they would be? Aug 01 07:43:11 what gui are you running? Aug 01 07:50:45 qtopia on openmoko Aug 01 07:51:26 hi Aug 01 07:56:19 anything 'openmoko' will not be compatible with the qtopia iamges from qtopia.net, unless its system upgrade stuff Aug 01 19:40:49 lpotter: do you know, which bootloader for the greenphone is the latest one ? I think, I have "300407" Aug 01 19:44:20 yes thats the latest Aug 01 22:02:48 hmm. well, i lasted in kde 4.1 for two days Aug 01 22:04:54 impressive Aug 01 22:05:05 it won't be so bad next time you do it Aug 01 22:05:39 until is started using up all my swap Aug 01 22:08:18 lpotter: you have kde4.1 too ? Aug 01 22:11:48 yes, kubuntu Aug 01 22:12:31 back to kde3 Aug 01 22:55:01 lpotter: i just lost my task bar twice... and also lost my desktop + lost 1.9Gb on hardrive in 10min... don't know where :( Aug 01 23:16:58 hmm Aug 01 23:22:28 I use gnome Aug 01 23:22:30 :) Aug 01 23:22:33 on ubuntu Aug 01 23:22:41 it works great Aug 01 23:53:41 ya, but gnome is stil version 1 or something Aug 01 23:53:53 and has a broken filedialog :) Aug 01 23:53:59 versions numbers are arbitrary and mean nothing Aug 01 23:54:03 what's broken about it? Aug 01 23:54:20 gnome is on version 2.22 Aug 01 23:54:25 if you go to the website Aug 01 23:54:31 oh ok. Aug 01 23:54:34 but as I said that really doesn't mean a whole lot Aug 01 23:54:45 i hate the gnome file dialog. I curse it everytime I use gimp Aug 01 23:55:08 why? Aug 01 23:55:16 doesnt remeember where I am. doesnt rememebr where I am going. Aug 01 23:55:22 I don't use GUIs much Aug 01 23:55:29 I rarely do image editing Aug 01 23:55:31 cant type in a path Aug 01 23:55:39 hmmm Aug 01 23:55:53 although I heard they fixed that or something Aug 01 23:56:26 it remembers where I have been Aug 01 23:56:40 I just tested it w/ the gimp Aug 01 23:57:01 cant use bookmarks of common places Aug 01 23:57:04 I actually "like" the spatial metaphor and usually turn off the "normal" file dialog Aug 01 23:57:12 all this crap is configurable though ith some gconf hacking Aug 01 23:57:21 wrong Aug 01 23:57:28 has bookmarks/places Aug 01 23:57:45 * lpotter fores up gimp Aug 01 23:57:48 fires Aug 01 23:57:52 even has a location bar if you click the "edit" button Aug 01 23:58:15 hmm. ok. i am wrong Aug 01 23:58:21 they must have fixed it Aug 01 23:58:32 the bookmarks thing is done through the file manager Aug 01 23:58:38 then they are available in the dialog Aug 01 23:58:58 all things you complain about are fixed...when was the last time you used it? ;P Aug 01 23:59:32 i use it often at work. but am stuck with suse 10.3 Aug 01 23:59:50 for many years they filedialog was broken :) Aug 02 00:00:00 the, that is, not they Aug 02 00:00:25 the cleaned a lot of thing up when they started doing the whole HIG guides and such Aug 02 00:01:11 they even stole some things from OS X I believe Aug 02 00:01:19 and simplified the interface greatly Aug 02 00:01:24 some people hate that Aug 02 00:01:25 good. they needed some usability :) Aug 02 00:01:39 KDE has options of the wazoo Aug 02 00:01:40 simple is not always better Aug 02 00:01:45 I like it Aug 02 00:01:51 so does windows Aug 02 00:01:55 in fact I turn the spatial file manager stuff on Aug 02 00:02:06 not that kind of simplicity Aug 02 00:02:23 if to omany choices is a problem, what gnome even existing for :) Aug 02 00:02:53 it's about user experience....I don't suppose you'd understand as you have too much bias ;) Aug 02 00:04:08 lpotter: I am just razzing you some anyway Aug 02 00:04:27 lpotter: are you guys planning on making any improvements to the responsiveness of the touch screen in 4.4? Aug 02 00:04:30 my bias starts with not liking gnome Aug 02 00:04:36 somtimes I have to hit buttons several times Aug 02 00:04:49 you mean the responsiveness of qtopia? Aug 02 00:04:53 yes Aug 02 00:04:59 on the freerunner Aug 02 00:05:12 with your finger? Aug 02 00:05:15 yep Aug 02 00:05:24 also Aug 02 00:05:37 it would be nice to have more "visual" feedback with the widgets Aug 02 00:05:55 not all of them provide nice visual feedback to keep me from pressing buttons too many times Aug 02 00:06:05 just some suggestions anyway Aug 02 00:06:34 yep. Aug 02 00:06:38 thanks for that. Aug 02 00:06:41 I don't know if the touchscreen responsiveness things is hardware related Aug 02 00:06:55 probably not that much Aug 02 00:07:05 I wouldn't think so either Aug 02 00:07:21 lots f places qtopia is slow. like answering a call. its better in 4.4, but not totally great Aug 02 00:07:27 soon I will fill out a billion bug reports....I am trying to keep a list of things that I notice Aug 02 00:07:31 :P Aug 02 00:07:38 yea Aug 02 00:07:39 ok. awesome! Aug 02 00:07:44 and I've hit that button too many times Aug 02 00:07:50 and hung up on people because of it Aug 02 00:07:52 ;P Aug 02 00:08:43 the SMS notice thing doesn't always work either Aug 02 00:08:50 I click "yes" and it does nothing Aug 02 00:08:57 then I have to manually go into the inbox Aug 02 00:09:01 or Aug 02 00:09:17 I click "no" and click on the envelope icon and it takes me Aug 02 00:09:18 there Aug 02 00:09:23 but not always Aug 02 00:09:38 it rarely takes me to the inbox when I "ask" it to Aug 02 00:09:54 usign either method Aug 02 00:09:57 using too Aug 02 00:09:58 heh ya Aug 02 00:11:06 I've been getting crummy cell signal lately too Aug 02 00:11:13 but I am not sure that's related to software Aug 02 00:11:19 AT&T's network blows Aug 02 00:11:25 probably all the stupid 3G iphones ;) Aug 02 00:11:30 thats not software Aug 02 00:11:46 the neo is not very good at getting a signal Aug 02 00:11:50 well sometimes it does not behave very nicely when resuming from suspend Aug 02 00:11:54 and I have to reboot it Aug 02 00:12:11 oh and then it does not keep my volume settings or my voicemail number setting Aug 02 00:12:16 thats kernel/hardware Aug 02 00:12:28 ok Aug 02 00:12:35 ya, i need to hook up saving the volumes :) Aug 02 00:12:51 not sure about the voicemail thing Aug 02 00:12:55 have you seen issues with accepting calls after being in suspend? Aug 02 00:13:06 oh ya. Aug 02 00:13:14 thats not qtopia's fault Aug 02 00:13:26 I know Aug 02 00:13:30 the file dialog is still broken Aug 02 00:13:33 that's more of a low level kernel thing Aug 02 00:13:56 sometimes to select the "dir you are in" you have to click the white space in the list (not another directory icon becaues that will just "open" that dir) Aug 02 00:14:34 it makes keyboard input useless cause you have to click in empty white space before enter key will work Aug 02 00:15:05 file a bug report ;) Aug 02 00:15:59 they tell me i don't know what I'm doing Aug 02 00:16:09 i hate using firefox because of it Aug 02 00:16:15 i wish they'd go back to the old one Aug 02 00:16:27 they cannot reproduce it? Aug 02 00:16:36 no they can Aug 02 00:16:42 thats how its supposed to be Aug 02 00:17:06 just use qtwebkit browser Aug 02 00:17:07 lpotter: will qtopia ever integrate with the FSO apis/? Aug 02 00:17:16 arora i think its called Aug 02 00:17:33 chillywilly: doubtful. FSO is python Aug 02 00:17:42 talking to a gnome dev is about as useful as yelling at a brick wall thats fell over onto the ground Aug 02 00:17:50 lpotter: it's a dbus api Aug 02 00:17:56 lpotter: i use arora also. I love it Aug 02 00:18:04 so simple, so clean, no bloat Aug 02 00:18:13 chillywilly: it uses python, so youd need pythin installed Aug 02 00:18:21 so? Aug 02 00:18:50 the idea is that you're supposed to talk to a dbus api which is language agnostic Aug 02 00:19:26 chillywilly: then theres nothing to integrate with qtopia. Aug 02 00:19:31 chillywilly: dbus already exists Aug 02 00:19:48 they are writing open source phone apis Aug 02 00:19:52 qtopia does everything itself anyway. I suppose a device configuration could talk to it. Aug 02 00:20:12 i.e., an abstraction for the low level things Aug 02 00:20:20 but qtopia doesnt need anything else extra. Aug 02 00:20:42 just seems like all the nice hardare/device fixes are going into the FSO effort Aug 02 00:20:50 device driver/low level stuff Aug 02 00:21:17 ya Aug 02 00:21:32 fso is a middle layer though. Aug 02 00:22:04 it would be better if FSO talked to qtopia, not the other way around :) Aug 02 00:22:30 taht seems silly Aug 02 00:22:51 the UI should talk to the hardware services "api" shouldn't it? Aug 02 00:23:01 qtopia is more than just the ui Aug 02 00:23:08 it does _everything_ Aug 02 00:23:11 that way you are abstracted and all you need to do is add to this api Aug 02 00:23:20 well, besides system level stuff Aug 02 00:23:32 well yes, but it doesn't have to if you use the hardware "api" layer Aug 02 00:23:54 I have no idea what the qtopia architecure looks like, but I like the idea of the FSO apis Aug 02 00:24:17 personally, i think python on a phone is silly :) Aug 02 00:24:26 I don't Aug 02 00:24:39 they are mostly using it as a prototyping language Aug 02 00:24:42 like like i think java on a phone is silly Aug 02 00:25:01 well java is statically typed Aug 02 00:25:05 and you have to compile it Aug 02 00:25:09 it is not interpreted Aug 02 00:25:14 remember? :) Aug 02 00:25:32 there are lots of java applets still out there.... Aug 02 00:25:36 yes, of course, which is why python is not suited for embedded handhelds.phones Aug 02 00:25:40 like the one they use at work with citrix Aug 02 00:25:46 too slow and takes too much resourecs Aug 02 00:25:56 there Aug 02 00:26:00 there's an optimizer Aug 02 00:26:22 interperted languages get faster and hardware does too Aug 02 00:26:30 qtopi ahas an optimizer too.. its call prelink Aug 02 00:26:59 I am planning on doing a prelink neo image Aug 02 00:27:21 you're talking about a big fat monolithically linked image? Aug 02 00:27:30 no, prelink Aug 02 00:27:47 not familiar with what that actaully entails Aug 02 00:27:51 http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.2/tut-prelink.html Aug 02 00:28:13 ok, it's some shared lib tricks Aug 02 00:28:21 yea I am not familiar with all the options there Aug 02 00:28:29 http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3/tut-prelink.html Aug 02 00:28:34 I was reading some article on libtool and trying to grok that earlier today Aug 02 00:28:52 it was an issue of FSM Aug 02 00:28:57 heh libtool. what a waste of 1's and 0's :) Aug 02 00:29:48 do you bash everything GNU? Aug 02 00:29:50 ;P Aug 02 00:29:59 how about gcc...oh we don't need that either ;) Aug 02 00:30:25 brb Aug 02 00:31:44 nope. dont need gcc. just give me g++ is the world will be peaceful Aug 02 00:31:57 gcc == the gnu compiler collection Aug 02 00:32:02 which includes g++ Aug 02 00:32:04 :D Aug 02 00:32:21 actually there are far better compilers out there. Aug 02 00:32:28 my first language was c++ Aug 02 00:32:35 sure there is Aug 02 00:32:47 intel's compiler is supposed to be pretty good Aug 02 00:33:07 oh it worked Aug 02 00:33:08 yay Aug 02 00:33:14 took me to the inbox this time Aug 02 00:33:18 must've been lucky ;) Aug 02 00:34:04 I want to run a lisp machine for a phone ;) Aug 02 00:34:10 that would be sweet Aug 02 00:34:34 emacs Aug 02 00:34:46 gsm.el :) Aug 02 00:34:50 emacs lisp is not the same as say ANSI Common Lisp Aug 02 00:34:51 3g.el Aug 02 00:37:32 lpotter: so is it fair to say that the only cooperation point betweent he OM project and qtopia is at the kernel level? Aug 02 00:38:11 no, the system too.. give me a running system with a command console and I cna give you qtopia Aug 02 00:38:21 qtopia talks to the modem itself Aug 02 00:38:49 that and OM is using qtopia on x Aug 02 00:39:02 ok, so kernel + normal userspace utils Aug 02 00:40:20 interesting, so there's a prelink daemon that maintains a cache or is that a one-time invocation of a utility? Aug 02 00:42:02 prelink gets run once over binaris and libraries. but you will want to run it again if you add stuff or update the system Aug 02 00:42:28 what is prelink-rtld? Aug 02 00:42:40 runtimelinker i think Aug 02 00:42:48 ok Aug 02 00:42:48 not sure Aug 02 00:42:55 have you tried this yet? Aug 02 00:43:03 greenphone was prelinked Aug 02 00:43:06 how is the performance? Aug 02 00:43:11 i have not tried on the neo yet Aug 02 00:43:18 yea I wish I could've bought one of those... Aug 02 00:43:20 it will be faster Aug 02 00:43:32 it has an actual key pad ;) Aug 02 00:43:50 but has an ancient kernel Aug 02 00:43:52 doe the greenphone work in the US? Aug 02 00:44:09 think so Aug 02 00:44:22 they are out of stock? Aug 02 00:44:40 are you working right now? ;P Aug 02 00:44:56 if so I should stop bugging you Aug 02 00:45:02 it's 7:45 PM on a Friday here Aug 02 00:45:22 no longer sold. you can sometimes find them on the qtopia.net forums Aug 02 00:45:35 we use them for development, cause we have two each :) Aug 02 00:45:49 I was going to ask you if you had one :) Aug 02 00:45:55 its 10:45 saturday here Aug 02 00:46:01 I assume you also own a freerunner Aug 02 00:46:06 ;P Aug 02 00:46:18 can you steal me a greenphone ;) Aug 02 00:46:20 j/k Aug 02 00:46:23 i personally dont. but there are several on my desk Aug 02 00:47:33 does the greenphone have a stylus holder? Aug 02 00:48:14 looks like it has a camera Aug 02 00:49:18 could i build a 4.4 snapshot right now? Aug 02 00:51:11 I found snapshot tarballs Aug 02 00:51:22 hmmm Aug 02 00:51:27 looks like 4.3.2 Aug 02 00:53:27 yes it has a stylus Aug 02 00:53:35 damn... Aug 02 00:53:40 there are no qtopia 4.4 snapshots yet Aug 02 00:53:46 can you pull the source? Aug 02 00:54:19 * chillywilly is browsing through http://doc.trolltech.com/qtopia4.3/index.html Aug 02 00:54:27 pull the source? Aug 02 00:54:48 right, svn or cvs checkout Aug 02 00:55:08 "download" the source Aug 02 00:55:14 whatever term you want to use :) Aug 02 00:56:10 this link does not work -> ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/pub/qtopia/source Aug 02 01:01:43 well I found the source anyway but the link in the getting started guide is bad' Aug 02 01:10:31 bah, my FF has locked up Aug 02 01:10:45 there is a unofficial git of qtopia 4.3.2 Aug 02 01:10:56 see th etopic :){ Aug 02 01:11:13 you can download the neo sdk too Aug 02 01:11:17 where? Aug 02 01:11:21 it doesnt come with source Aug 02 01:11:23 qtopia.net Aug 02 01:11:33 why no source? Aug 02 01:11:49 cause you can download it from ftp.trolltech.com Aug 02 01:12:01 it is mainly for application develoeprs Aug 02 01:12:18 you can also build a binary SDK too, right? Aug 02 01:12:29 I see instructions on the website Aug 02 01:12:44 did you build keypebble yet? ;P Aug 02 01:12:57 ah, there it is Aug 02 01:13:02 nevermind Aug 02 01:13:13 that'll be nice Aug 02 01:13:21 I need a data package Aug 02 01:13:34 I wonder how well VNC will run over GPRS :-/ Aug 02 01:16:06 well, gprs is slow anyway Aug 02 01:16:25 yes, but that's all the phone supports Aug 02 01:16:58 does the greenphone support anything better? Aug 02 01:17:06 nope Aug 02 01:18:14 is there any opensource JVM that runs on qtopia? Aug 02 01:18:30 can the webkit browser run java applets? Aug 02 01:19:12 or any JVM that is freely available Aug 02 01:22:36 work on netscape plugin is still ongoing in webkit Aug 02 01:25:33 wish they would release the 4.4 snapshots so i cold release a neo 4.4 snapshot image Aug 02 01:25:51 ok Aug 02 01:26:10 are you a developer at trolltech? Aug 02 01:31:07 yes Aug 02 01:31:43 I have the source.... Aug 02 01:31:49 it was rather large Aug 02 01:35:25 yep Aug 02 01:35:35 and takes a long time to compile Aug 02 01:40:56 because it's c++ ;) Aug 02 01:41:20 how much disk space will I need to build it? Aug 02 01:42:43 no, because qtopia builds hhost tools and everything Aug 02 01:44:31 how much disk space do you need to build it? Aug 02 01:44:39 596M total Aug 02 01:44:51 ok Aug 02 01:45:34 ok and that's after you have built it? Aug 02 01:46:53 taking forever just to unpack it ;) Aug 02 01:58:56 I don't see any other tarballs like the language pack that is mentioned on the website Aug 02 01:59:06 qtopia-language-en_GB-4.3.0.tar.gz Aug 02 02:02:56 language packs are extra Aug 02 02:05:28 extra what.... Aug 02 02:11:40 lpotter: do I need to create a device profile? Aug 02 02:15:07 for what? only if you are integrating a new device? what do you wnat to compile for? neo? or host desktop? Aug 02 02:23:54 neo Aug 02 02:24:10 I think I misunderstood the point of the profile Aug 02 02:24:20 nevermind Aug 02 02:24:57 do you have a list of config options for the neo? Aug 02 02:25:53 confgure options, rather Aug 02 02:41:18 well it would save some time anyway and I can throw them into a script Aug 02 02:41:51 you guys really should add a "pause" or 2 to the default ring tone Aug 02 02:42:09 otherwise it's really annoying to set the ring to continuous **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Aug 02 02:59:57 2008