**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 04 03:00:01 2010 May 04 14:37:43 ogra, NCommander: poke May 04 14:37:54 ogra, NCommander: Do you guys have any specs which are pending approval? May 04 14:38:05 NCommander: I'd like to discuss softboot loader (mukluk) with you May 04 14:38:19 NCommander: Does mukluk actually need *discussion*, or does it need implementation? May 04 14:38:23 lool, i submitted two for me and one that persia didnt want to run the BOF for May 04 14:38:37 ogra: Could you list them here? May 04 14:38:45 just digging May 04 14:38:51 mukluk mostly just needs implementation. Not a lot to discuss. May 04 14:39:04 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/userspace-loop-mounting May 04 14:39:39 * ogra looks for the panel one May 04 14:39:49 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/userspace-loop-mounting 404s May 04 14:40:01 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-userspace-loop-mounting May 04 14:40:19 https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-lightweight-panel-for-efl May 04 14:40:29 ogra: The spec doesn't say why you'd want to loop mount an image? May 04 14:40:35 yeah, someone (i think asac) renamed it May 04 14:40:57 ogra: can you fill out summary? ;M)( May 04 14:41:01 arm-m-userspace-loop-mounting > I'd like this to be worded towards the use case we're trying to solve May 04 14:41:23 lool, editing images you mean ? and running build tools as non-root ? May 04 14:41:28 arm-m-lightweight-panel-for-efl > sounds relatively good (except typos :-) but do we have a replacement software, do we intend to write it? May 04 14:41:34 * ogra can rephrase it indeed May 04 14:41:45 lool: both are already in the summit system fwiw May 04 14:41:47 lool, i suspect a bit of both May 04 14:42:03 ogra: It could be: "Building images as non-root" or "Remastering images" May 04 14:42:06 i'D suppose to pick something existing and modify it May 04 14:42:20 asac: You mean scheduled? May 04 14:42:37 persia: Any spec / session from you I should be aware of? May 04 14:42:41 since if we want to use the indicators we need applet support and most of the small panel imaplementations that exist dont have it May 04 14:42:47 but thats for the discussion May 04 14:42:48 asac: Do you know of any other spec/session from the mobile team which needs attention? May 04 14:43:02 lool: NCommander's softbooloader spec May 04 14:43:09 asac: Ok, I pinged him earlier on this May 04 14:43:16 I dont think it needs to be scheduled for UDS May 04 14:43:16 lool: i wanted to approve it, but it just was gone from the url it previously had May 04 14:43:23 right, there schouldnt be any others May 04 14:43:26 lool: yeah. we unscheduled it ... but he came back May 04 14:43:34 asac: Lets get this straight with NCommander May 04 14:43:36 and explicitly asked to have that session still ... i am indifferent May 04 14:43:46 I'm fine if this is targeted for maverick, but I want to understand the need for a time slot at UDS May 04 14:43:55 my argument was that there was enough discussoin and we should rather implement May 04 14:44:00 asac: +1 May 04 14:44:02 lool, i'D also happily run https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-soc-i.mx51 and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-soc-omap May 04 14:44:16 but he said he wanted to solicit more input now that we have more professional attention on arm May 04 14:44:21 which is a valid argument imo May 04 14:44:24 ogra: What I'd love for arm-m-soc-i.mx51 and arm-m-soc-omap is if you could gather input from Freescale and TI May 04 14:44:24 and as i sadi before, any other one i subscribed to May 04 14:44:28 ogra: those are vendor sessions May 04 14:44:45 ogra: Ideally, they'd run the session with what they want to achieve in maverick, or in the future, or give a status update on where things stand -- whatever May 04 14:44:48 both are in the process to appoint a lead for that esssion ... but definitly subscribe you May 04 14:44:49 lool, though imx51 should probably be 53 May 04 14:44:59 ogra: imx5x May 04 14:45:00 ;) May 04 14:45:03 yeah ! May 04 14:45:04 ++ May 04 14:45:19 ogra: lets not change it now, because fsl has that url to think about May 04 14:45:27 ok May 04 14:45:29 asac: IMHO, softbootloader is a pre-production developers solution; not going to be deployed on production systems due to the boot time impact May 04 14:45:32 and then it would be gone (or are there automatic rediects) May 04 14:45:47 lool: right. it clearly falls in the developer (tools?) part May 04 14:45:57 asac: As such, I dont think it needs attention from another round of people; it should be one of these nice tools we use while we want to stay open in terms of boot options May 04 14:46:02 asac: Ack May 04 14:46:35 yeah. i think we are on the same page. lets make ncommander understand that its approved for maverick implementation, but that we probably dont want a session May 04 14:47:28 lool, description changed (for the loop stuff) May 04 14:48:43 * persia doesn't see why mukluk wouldn't be a production solution in the future: coreboot seems popular with many. Mind you, mukluk is insufficiently mature to be used now. May 04 14:48:58 persia, its slooow May 04 14:49:39 imagine 10secs from u-boot plus 3 seconds for booting an initial kernel plus 5 seconds for second kernel and initramfs May 04 14:49:51 ogra: coreboot isn't. The demo I heard about from a couple weeks ago wasn't. May 04 14:50:02 persia, i was talking mukluk May 04 14:50:06 mukluk just isn't yet mature enough. May 04 14:50:40 and its slow by design :) May 04 14:52:35 ogra: I updated the description again May 04 14:52:41 thanks May 04 14:53:36 persia: One way we could have mukluk is as a fallback bootloader May 04 14:53:49 But let's walk before we run May 04 14:53:55 heh May 04 14:54:00 crawl rather :) May 04 14:54:05 ogra: Happy with the new description? May 04 14:54:11 yup, fine May 04 14:54:12 ogra: I think I will rename the blueprint as well May 04 14:54:17 fine too May 04 14:54:30 ogra: what about lightweight panel? May 04 14:54:32 it was registered before we had ubuntu-arm or any naming scheme May 04 14:54:37 16:41 < lool> arm-m-lightweight-panel-for-efl > sounds relatively good (except typos :-) but do we have a replacement software, do we intend to write it? May 04 14:55:20 lool, i suspect a bit of both May 04 14:55:22 i'D suppose to pick something existing and modify it May 04 14:55:27 since if we want to use the indicators we need applet support and most of the small panel imaplementations that exist dont have it May 04 14:55:28 but thats for the discussion May 04 14:56:10 ogra: Is it really ARM specific? May 04 14:56:11 (from above) May 04 14:56:27 I'm fine discussing it in the ARM track, but I wonder if it's going to impact desktop or whether they have differing plans May 04 14:56:32 lool, well, specific to efl using images with low RAM i'd say May 04 14:56:36 I'd hate ending up with one panel for ARM and one panel for rest or such May 04 14:57:13 not so much for ARM as a hardware, but very much for the possible ARM hardware that might be supported in the future May 04 14:57:34 and i doubt desktop has *any* plans in that direction May 04 14:57:43 ogra: It doens't sound like a too good idea to have multiple implementations of the panel; moving parts, multiple code bases to maintain, ... May 04 14:57:53 lool: certainly. I'm not advocating mukluk is ready now, just that the concept shouldn't be rejected for production in a general way. May 04 14:57:55 ogra: So I think you should involve desktop and find a way which works for everybody May 04 14:58:13 well, but you dont need the majority of things the current panel pulls into your memory May 04 14:58:14 New name https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-image-builds-without-root May 04 14:58:30 at least on efl May 04 14:58:32 ogra: So if you dont need them with ARM, you dont need them for other hardware May 04 14:58:39 right May 04 14:58:53 but other hardware might have less speed/size constraints May 04 14:59:05 ogra: Could you make sure you discuss this with didrocks and the plans are agreed upon on the two teams (desktop and May 04 14:59:08 mobile) May 04 14:59:17 asac was initially proposing to actually enhance the efl launcher May 04 14:59:27 to be able to embed the bits and pieces we want May 04 14:59:36 possibly thats a better idea, not sure May 04 14:59:37 I added didrocks as participation essential May 04 14:59:43 ok May 04 15:00:55 ogra: You might want mterry? May 04 15:01:03 added him May 04 15:01:30 A little OT: Do you know if there's there an ongoing effort to make a new (upgraded) version of the beagle board? May 04 15:01:50 I can't imagine there isn't, but I'd recommend asking in #beagle May 04 15:01:50 lool, ++ May 04 15:01:57 sveinse: as in hardware? May 04 15:02:07 sveinse: Google Beagleboard XM May 04 15:02:28 lool, yes. Specifically one with SATA May 04 15:02:39 Thanks, I'll check it out May 04 15:02:44 i dont think there are plans for SATA support May 04 15:03:09 but there are several addon boards that might enable you to attach a self built SATA solution May 04 15:03:34 prpplague might be someone who can point you to any May 04 15:03:48 omap has no sata so the only practical way for sata support would usb-sata bridge.. May 04 15:03:51 * prpplague looks in May 04 15:04:03 No SATA on OMAP3 May 04 15:04:16 prpplague: see I told you guys was asking for SATA :-) May 04 15:04:16 join #beagle May 04 15:04:20 sveinse: The SoC doesn't provide SATA; the only ARMv7 one I know of is the Dove one May 04 15:04:51 a standard PATA->SATA bridge can be added to the omap3 gpmc , problem is that the beagle doesn't bring it out May 04 15:06:47 Interesting though... Maybe TI has something like that in its pipe. The generic base board of my AM3517 eval kit (a Zoom2 kit) has a SATA connector. But for OMAP3 its NOOP :( May 04 15:16:24 sveinse: interesting, i'd like to see the schematic on tat May 04 15:16:25 that May 04 15:21:04 prpplague: It's just routed to some GPIO on the SoC. May 04 15:22:21 prpplague: This is the OEM mfg which makes the evalkit for TI: http://www.logicpd.com/products/development-kits/zoom-am3517-evm-development-kit May 04 15:22:22 sveinse: hmm, the AM3517 has Sata ? May 04 15:23:00 prpplague: No. It does not. It only routed on the common baseboard which they obviously share between a number of SoCs May 04 15:23:35 prpplague: I was speculating if newer cores (OMAP4 perhaps?) had SATA May 04 15:23:47 hey folks May 04 15:23:57 prpplague: ..since they have added it to the board I mean May 04 15:24:01 rootstock is failing for me on a current lucid system May 04 15:24:18 sveinse: oh so the base board has a sata connector but no sata support? May 04 15:24:41 the error message is "/usr/bin/rootstock: 792: Bad substitution" May 04 15:24:51 which seems a bit weird May 04 15:25:55 prpplague: yes. The SoC is on a daughter board (which they name SoM) and then you plug it into a base board. The pins connected to the SATA is simply routed to some GPIO pins on the SOM. No PHY or anything May 04 15:26:00 is there any way of telling rootstock to not delete downloaded files? May 04 15:27:20 sveinse: ahh ok May 04 17:16:46 Sorry for off-topic: Are there someone TI employee here? May 04 17:17:06 abogani: you can find a bunch of TI folks at linux-omap May 04 17:17:22 #linux-omap that is May 04 17:17:52 abogani: yep. May I help? May 04 17:17:59 ojn: Thanks and sorry again :-) May 04 17:18:48 vstehle: May I disturb you for a simple question in private? (it is really off-topic here) May 04 17:19:15 abogani: Sure. May 04 17:33:18 kblin, that 792: is a bashism i introduced, fix is waiting for review: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~beagleboard-kernel/+junk/rootstock-bashism/revision/96 May 04 17:37:37 NCommander: Hey you got our pings earlier? May 04 17:38:42 rcn-ee: ${KERNEL_IMG_REL%%_*} might be nicer (no fork) May 04 17:38:45 and isn't a bashism May 04 17:39:03 KERNEL_IMG_REL=foo_bar_bas May 04 17:39:07 echo ${KERNEL_IMG_REL%%_*} May 04 17:39:08 => foo May 04 17:39:17 cool, that's a lot nicer lool.. May 04 17:43:29 yeah, that works sweet.. keeps learning new things.. lool, have you had any insights to the qemu lockup? May 04 17:48:16 rcn-ee: qemu lockup > I'm afraid not May 04 17:48:36 rcn-ee: I actually wonder whether anybody tried reproducing and then installing a bunch of dbgsym from apt and dpkg and getting a backtrace? May 04 17:48:51 there's also the possibility of offering a gdb server in qemu (-s flag I think) May 04 17:49:08 okay.. what's weird, randomly 1/50 I'll get past that lockup and as soon as apt-get is almost done configuring it'll segfault... May 04 17:49:52 rcn-ee: I wonder whether it could be related to the memory in use May 04 17:50:01 rcn-ee: One thing to try would be adding swap May 04 17:51:07 yeap, tried both those.. added more swap, having qemu access a spare fast hardrive instead of image.. i was playing around with the apt-dbsym's jsut not sure how to change the apt-get call to work under gdb.. May 04 17:51:41 rcn-ee: You dont need to change it May 04 17:51:47 rcn-ee: just attach to the hung process May 04 17:51:59 gdb /usr/bin/apt-get and then "attach 1234" where 1234 is the pid May 04 17:52:36 or hack rootstock to apt-get install the -dbgsym first, and run gdb apt-get -c 'set args install xyz; run' May 04 17:54:10 okay, that's what it is... "-c ; run" I'll fire up another run.. (i have quick hack to get the dbsym's installed first already) May 04 17:57:21 rcn-ee: Sorry, it's -x with an input file, no -c (command) in gdb May 04 17:57:27 rcn-ee: Or --args May 04 17:58:03 * lool disappears May 04 17:58:03 I'm going to have to hold up anyways.. the ddebs's i used previously have disappeared off ddebs.ubuntu.com... May 04 17:58:14 (older versions exist) May 04 17:58:54 lool: pings recieved w.r.t. to ARM softbootloader May 04 18:10:22 NCommander: Ok, so do you agree it doens't need discussion at UDS? May 04 18:10:30 NCommander: But just implementation in maverick? May 04 18:10:51 rcn-ee: Yes, ddebs are large, we only keep the last one May 04 18:11:12 lool: I suspose. I think there are still points that could be discussed such as making it the default boot mechanism, etc. May 04 18:11:46 yeah: http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/pool/main/a/apt/ except it only has karmic's... lucid's is 0.7.25.3 (which was there a week ago.) .;) May 04 18:12:03 lool: BTW, be expecting another spec from me on improved ARM subarch detection so its something a bit less specific than the hardware field; I'll still drafted it however May 04 18:16:55 NCommander, btw any chance can we get an override, (for external kernels that share the same hardware id)? May 04 18:17:12 rcn-ee: that's what we need to fix May 04 18:17:34 ahh. cool.. May 04 18:17:35 rcn-ee: which board is this for? May 04 18:17:42 (and for lucid or maverick?) May 04 18:17:57 pretty much any ti board i work on.. (specificly the beagle and beagle xm) May 04 18:18:19 rcn-ee: I thought beagle XM won't boot a standard OMAP3 kernel (yet) May 04 18:18:24 rcn-ee: can I PM you? May 04 18:19:01 sure no problem... yeap it doesn't boot my or ubuntu's kernel but it does boot on angstrom psp.. although the ram settings are still iffy last i talked to jason and gerald... May 04 18:32:28 rcn-ee, did you forget to push your changed to the branch ? May 04 18:32:33 * ogra doesnt see a change May 04 18:32:46 *changes May 04 18:33:56 ogra, launchpad is error-ring out all morning today for me.. ;) (it's not refreshing any of my branches on the http interface) May 04 18:34:06 ah, k May 04 18:34:24 there was an update today and it was r/o for quite a while May 04 18:34:33 (lp update) May 04 18:35:57 yeap... but i'll try pushing that last diff (lool's version) i emailed you to a branch, or you could apply it as is.. (for an sru do you need a bug report?) May 04 18:36:21 bug would be helpful but i can also file it myself May 04 18:37:56 oh, i missed that there was an attachmendt in the mail, sorry May 04 18:39:14 laughs... that's what happens when i quickly top post'd... ;) heads back to work. May 04 19:02:18 NCommander: Please register the spec ASAP then **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 05 02:59:56 2010