**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 13 02:59:56 2010
Jun 13 11:25:57 <Guest74477> Hello, I'm using rootstock and am using --matchbox-desktop for a seed but I don't get a bootable desktop in qemu.
Jun 13 11:26:10 <Guest74477> Is there other seeds I need to use?
Jun 13 11:26:22 <Guest74477> x.org possibly?
Jun 13 11:28:35 <Guest74477> ^?
Jun 13 11:32:23 <Guest74477> ogra, ?
Jun 13 11:55:18 <cwillu> Guest74477, matchbox-desktop isn't a full desktop environment
Jun 13 11:56:32 <Guest74477> I downloaded the matchbox-panel, matchbox-window-manager , libmatchbox
Jun 13 11:56:43 <Guest74477> matchbox-common
Jun 13 12:02:57 <Guest74477> Its for an embedded device
Jun 13 12:03:46 <cwillu> yes, but some assembly is required with that package
Jun 13 12:04:11 <Guest74477> Do I need to build from source?
Jun 13 12:04:32 <cwillu> no, you need to play with it in an otherwise already working machine (virtual or otherwise), and learn how the pieces fit together
Jun 13 12:04:55 <Guest74477> Im running it in qemu so I can
Jun 13 12:05:13 <Guest74477> The device is buttonless so Im having to design etc in a vm
Jun 13 12:05:25 <cwillu> okay, but don't bite off more than you can chew
Jun 13 12:05:45 <cwillu> your first step should be to get a completely standard install of some common distro working
Jun 13 12:06:07 <Guest74477> use ubuntu-desktop as the seed?
Jun 13 12:06:25 <Guest74477> It would be too heavy for the device (iPhone 3f
Jun 13 12:06:28 <Guest74477> g)
Jun 13 12:06:29 <cwillu> once you know that you've got boot loaders, kernels, drivers, and so forth handled, then you can start more adventurous things
Jun 13 12:07:08 <Guest74477> We have OpeniBoot idroid kernel and almost all the drivers working on the kernel
Jun 13 12:07:29 <cwillu> 'we' means you've actually had everything working yourself?
Jun 13 12:07:43 <cwillu> if not, then that's your first step
Jun 13 12:07:49 <cwillu> duplicating what's already been done
Jun 13 12:08:04 <Guest74477> I've had Android up and running, someone else has had debian running but isnt releasing inscrtuctions
Jun 13 12:08:37 <Guest74477> I have the boot loader and kernel and have them both running
Jun 13 12:09:11 <cwillu> in the vm, how far have you gotten?
Jun 13 12:09:14 <Guest74477> The idroid kernel passes off to android kernel where as the person who installed debian used only the idroi kernel
Jun 13 12:09:23 <Guest74477> I've gotten it to boot to cli
Jun 13 12:09:31 <Guest74477> Logged in and used apt-get etc.
Jun 13 12:09:41 <cwillu> did you set anything up to start x?
Jun 13 12:09:45 <Guest74477> Adde other port repo's to sources.list
Jun 13 12:10:09 <Guest74477> I got x installed and started x it just loaded a black screen
Jun 13 12:10:17 <cwillu> (typically you wouldn't use gdm on an embedded device, which is why matchbox-desktop doesn't depend on it)
Jun 13 12:10:19 <Guest74477> There wasn't an xinitrc
Jun 13 12:10:27 <Guest74477> There wasnt a gdm
Jun 13 12:10:32 <Guest74477> It was a text base login
Jun 13 12:10:41 <cwillu> yes, that's what I just told you :p
Jun 13 12:10:45 <Guest74477> But that can be disabled
Jun 13 12:11:03 <Guest74477> Or should I remove it and keep it single user?
Jun 13 12:11:22 <cwillu> not sure how that's relevant :)
Jun 13 12:11:35 <cwillu> your problems with x aren't related to what users you have
Jun 13 12:11:36 <Guest74477> <cwillu> (typically you wouldn't use gdm on an embedded device, which is why matchbox-desktop doesn't depend on it)
Jun 13 12:11:49 <Guest74477> Should I remove gdm :p
Jun 13 12:11:50 <Guest74477> ?
Jun 13 12:11:58 <cwillu> is it installed?
Jun 13 12:12:14 <Guest74477> No, it's just text based, I thought gdm was graphical
Jun 13 12:12:33 <cwillu> okay, lets try a different approach to educating you :)
Jun 13 12:12:40 <cwillu> what os are you running on your desktop?
Jun 13 12:12:50 <cwillu> linux of some variety?
Jun 13 12:13:09 <cwillu> spend some time learning how it's actually put together, which pieces are responsible for which tasks
Jun 13 12:13:27 <Guest74477> I've been using linux on my desktop for a few years and have built by own x86 distro's I know a fair bit about building a distro it's just Im new to arm
Jun 13 12:13:42 <cwillu> okay;  none of your issues are really arm related at the moment
Jun 13 12:13:51 <Guest74477> I appreciate the help but that was a bit patronising
Jun 13 12:13:53 <cwillu> i.e., if you can get x up at all, and so on
Jun 13 12:14:22 <cwillu> you're aware that gdm is typically responsible for starting X on a desktop?
Jun 13 12:14:52 <Guest74477> Gnome display manager?
Jun 13 12:14:55 <cwillu> yes
Jun 13 12:15:08 <cwillu> it's the part that actually runs X on a desktop
Jun 13 12:15:17 <Guest74477> It isn't installed
Jun 13 12:15:22 <Guest74477> Niether is gnome
Jun 13 12:15:38 <cwillu> yes, so what do you have to actually start x?
Jun 13 12:15:50 <Guest74477> x.org and the startx comman
Jun 13 12:15:50 <Guest74477> d
Jun 13 12:15:57 <cwillu> matchbox isn't a session, it's a bunch of pieces you use to make the exact pieces you need
Jun 13 12:16:28 <cwillu> iirc, there's an /etc/matchbox-session (or something like that, it might actually be in /usr/bin) which is a simple script which you need to edit
Jun 13 12:16:35 <Guest74477> Right, wouldnt it be best to use a lightweight window manager/ desktop like openbox to start a session?
Jun 13 12:17:16 <Guest74477> Then add matchbox components to xinit after they've been configured?
Jun 13 12:17:18 <cwillu> sorry if I sound patronizing, it's just tricky figuring out what a given person knows vs considers obvious vs knows nothing about
Jun 13 12:17:29 <Guest74477> It's ok, thsnk
Jun 13 12:17:46 <cwillu> Do you have anything in /etc/init or /etc/init.d (the first is preferred) to start x?
Jun 13 12:18:15 <Guest74477> thank you for continuing to help after I said that most wouldn't :)
Jun 13 12:18:59 <Guest74477> I've had to delete the img I made with rootstock due to an ext2 error, I didnt have the applications in the vm to fix it
Jun 13 12:19:28 <Guest74477> I'll get it set up and add all the programs again. (Making a backup with time)
Jun 13 12:19:58 <cwillu> most of the scripts you'll need to work with would be identical between x86 and arm
Jun 13 12:20:24 <cwillu> what you might want to do is make a normal x86 server install in a vm, and build it up inside the vm
Jun 13 12:20:34 <cwillu> once you know what pieces you need, it'll be easier to poke rootstock in the right way
Jun 13 12:21:34 <cwillu> you'll need something to start X, http://pastebin.com/qSaxR3xh is a copy of what I use (just dump it in /etc/init)
Jun 13 12:21:46 <Guest74477> I've done that before with x86, I started with ubuntu minimal, got a booting system installed blackbox and I was away. I can imagine it's same process with this now, but arm and embedded is still new waters, I'll let you know how iBuntu goes
Jun 13 12:22:01 <cwillu> arm doesn't affect any of this though
Jun 13 12:22:13 <Guest74477> ok
Jun 13 12:22:22 <cwillu> all the same packages are available
Jun 13 12:22:44 <cwillu> there might be an occasional bug that's in x86 that isn't in arm, or vice verse, but in general it works exactly the same
Jun 13 12:22:49 <Guest74477> What does the -- vt7 -nr variables do for startx?
Jun 13 12:22:58 <cwillu> man startx :)
Jun 13 12:23:15 <cwillu> -- is the divider between parameters for the session vs parameters for the x server
Jun 13 12:23:22 <cwillu> vt7 tells it to start on vt7
Jun 13 12:23:42 <Guest74477> virtual terminal ie ctrl alt f7?
Jun 13 12:24:10 <cwillu> -nr tells it not to blank the screen when x starts, so that the splash screen stays running;  that probably won't work for you though, as I had to patch the omapfb driver and I don't think that change has made it into ubuntu yet
Jun 13 12:24:13 <cwillu> yes, exactly
Jun 13 12:24:51 <cwillu> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ is the next place you want to look
Jun 13 12:25:03 <cwillu> startx will fire off those scripts in the actual x instance
Jun 13 12:25:29 <Guest74477> That sounds like what I was doing wrong, Is the the command you send me to be saved as initrd?
Jun 13 12:25:45 <cwillu> note that that includes starting a default window manager, whatever "x-window-manager" happens to link to
Jun 13 12:25:52 <cwillu> :)
Jun 13 12:25:52 <cwillu> no
Jun 13 12:26:07 <Guest74477> initrd is the ramdisk *facepalm*
Jun 13 12:26:18 <Guest74477> xinitrc?
Jun 13 12:26:20 <cwillu> /etc/init/ is where upstart scripts go
Jun 13 12:26:24 <Guest74477> ok
Jun 13 12:26:33 <cwillu> I generally call it /etc/init/xorg.conf
Jun 13 12:30:07 <cwillu> Guest74477, I'm tarring up a copy of my modules.d (customization to rootstock), which contains a bunch of things split out into systems
Jun 13 12:30:43 <cwillu> you won't be able to use it directly really, but it'll give you starting points for configuration, and clues as to where that configuration might happen
Jun 13 12:31:18 <cwillu> Guest74477, http://cwillu.com/files/modules.tgz
Jun 13 12:31:21 <Guest74477> Thanks, I'll resd through them, which window manager and desktop do you use/
Jun 13 12:31:30 <cwillu> er, hang on a sec
Jun 13 12:31:38 <cwillu> not sure I did what I tjhought I did
Jun 13 12:32:08 <cwillu> no desktop, just a bare firefox session with a full-screen-on-startup extension, and a simple window manager (not strictly necessary, but convenient)
Jun 13 12:32:41 <Guest74477> You use Web apps?
Jun 13 12:33:52 <cwillu> ya, I've been doing the ipad thing since before there was an ipad :p
Jun 13 12:34:23 <Guest74477> Heh, all you needed to do was to build a device
Jun 13 12:34:30 <cwillu> mainly, I find it a very convenient to quickly make ui's, with the added bonus that the application is network-aware for free
Jun 13 12:34:45 <cwillu> I actually do industrial datacapture and similar
Jun 13 12:34:57 <Guest74477> And easily portable, compatibilty with any os with a browser
Jun 13 12:35:04 <cwillu> more or less
Jun 13 12:35:14 <cwillu> really only care about firefox, but yes
Jun 13 12:37:17 <cwillu> Guest74477, okay, download that link now
Jun 13 12:37:32 <Guest74477> I'm just untarring now
Jun 13 12:37:52 <cwillu> did you download it before?
Jun 13 12:38:03 <Guest74477> Yes
Jun 13 12:38:03 <cwillu> if so, you got a few megabytes of random firefox profile that you won't need :p
Jun 13 12:38:27 <Guest74477> Same url for the new file?
Jun 13 12:38:30 <cwillu> yes
Jun 13 12:39:25 <cwillu> frontend is the ony you're probably most interested in
Jun 13 12:39:43 <cwillu> although packages has the omap3 driver with -nr support
Jun 13 12:40:41 <Guest74477> What about backend?
Jun 13 12:40:55 <cwillu> that fires up the webserver;  not much to it though
Jun 13 12:41:01 <cwillu> the actual server code is elsewhere
Jun 13 12:41:13 <cwillu> (gets pulled in from git in a customized rootstock when it builds the image)
Jun 13 12:41:15 <Guest74477> Ok, I just noticed it was /etc/init
Jun 13 12:41:29 <cwillu> yep
Jun 13 12:41:45 <cwillu> basically what you have there is the plumbing to get things running, without any of the actual guts
Jun 13 12:42:34 <cwillu> i.e., the files in frontend/ are basically everything you'd need to change to get a program running under x
Jun 13 12:42:44 <cwillu> in my case firefox, but it could be anything
Jun 13 12:43:00 <cwillu> I use a separate init script for firefox itself so that it'll reopen if it dies or is closed, etc
Jun 13 12:43:11 <cwillu> you could do it from in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ as well, but that just feels ugly to me
Jun 13 12:44:02 <Guest74477> So where does xinitrc fit into this or is that for individual user sessions?
Jun 13 12:44:09 <cwillu> I don't use an xinitrc
Jun 13 12:44:35 <cwillu> what I gave you is an overlay
Jun 13 12:44:42 <Guest74477> ok
Jun 13 12:44:44 <cwillu> if you look at the contents of /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ on an actual system, you'll see how all the usual hooks are implemented
Jun 13 12:45:14 <Guest74477> Ill check on my own
Jun 13 12:45:16 <cwillu> i.e., you should be able to look at your own desktop's /etc/X11/Xsession.d
Jun 13 12:45:16 <cwillu> yep
Jun 13 12:45:28 <cwillu> grep and find are your friends :)
Jun 13 12:45:45 <Guest74477> Dont forget locate updatedb and whereis
Jun 13 12:46:00 <Guest74477> And whatis
Jun 13 12:46:15 <cwillu> for this task, grep and find are more important :p
Jun 13 12:46:26 <cwillu> they're how you find out what you should be locating :)
Jun 13 12:46:31 <Guest74477> I use grep anyway
Jun 13 12:46:34 <Guest74477> :p
Jun 13 12:46:35 <cwillu> also apropos and man
Jun 13 12:46:46 <Guest74477> apropos?
Jun 13 12:47:01 <cwillu> a better whatis
Jun 13 12:47:15 <cwillu> it's a index for man pages
Jun 13 12:47:31 <cwillu> so you can say apropos session, and look through the results to see what might be related to sessions
Jun 13 12:48:04 <Guest74477> rootstock is unpacking now
Jun 13 12:48:31 <cwillu> oh, a good speedup for rootstock:  set up apt-cacher, and use it for rootstock
Jun 13 12:48:52 <Guest74477> Do it doesn't need to download?
Jun 13 12:48:55 <Guest74477> so*
Jun 13 12:49:12 <cwillu> it holds a cache of the downloads that happen through it, so that the next time you don't need to
Jun 13 12:49:13 <cwillu> yep
Jun 13 12:50:04 <Guest74477> Ill make a back up of the basic image for now :) If it works I'll probably use it then for distributing
Jun 13 12:50:47 <Guest74477> I think adding touchscreen and wifi are going to be the worst things, but there's people I can ask
Jun 13 12:50:55 <cwillu> pro-tip
Jun 13 12:51:07 <cwillu> don't make an image that you distribute
Jun 13 12:51:12 <cwillu> make a script to generate the image
Jun 13 12:51:20 <cwillu> you'll save yourself alot of frustration
Jun 13 12:51:41 <cwillu> any quick hack you make to an image should be folded into your script, and tested there
Jun 13 12:51:51 <cwillu> otherwise you'll forget you made a change, or forget how you did it, etc
Jun 13 12:52:03 <cwillu> wifi will be easy if the device is supported at all
Jun 13 12:52:08 <cwillu> touchscreen probably as well
Jun 13 12:52:20 <cwillu> just a matter of including the right drivers
Jun 13 12:52:51 <Guest74477> There's kernel drivers and they work in Android
Jun 13 12:53:16 <cwillu> so where's the problem? :p
Jun 13 12:53:28 <Guest74477> I have the kernel and firmware files for both, but they arn't distrobutable, but there's scripts to get them
Jun 13 12:53:50 <Guest74477> So the user will have to add them to the image anyway
Jun 13 12:55:27 <cwillu> all the more reason to make a magic script that just builds the whole image :)
Jun 13 12:55:56 <Guest74477> I've just been reading your blog, what's the pypy jit actually do :) , Is it just in time?
Jun 13 12:57:32 <cwillu> that's what jit stands for
Jun 13 12:58:12 <cwillu> pypy is actually a jit-generator + a python interpreter written in python (actually a subset of python)
Jun 13 12:58:47 <cwillu> the jit-generator takes the python interpreter, and optimizes the hell out of it, such that they're actually faster than normal python in a few cases now
Jun 13 13:01:19 * cwillu considers updating his blog
Jun 13 13:04:04 <Guest74477> In rootstock does update-alternatives: error: no alternatives for rlogin. meen that there's no arm port of rlogin?
Jun 13 13:04:30 <cwillu> why in the name of schneier would you want rlogin!?
Jun 13 13:05:26 <cwillu> and no, it just means you don't have an rlogin in your package list, which is a good thing
Jun 13 13:05:50 <Guest74477> Im installing openssh with rootstock
Jun 13 13:06:04 <cwillu> okay, I wouldn't worry about the error
Jun 13 13:06:43 <cwillu> just checked, I get the same message;  it's not actually an error
Jun 13 14:22:03 <Guest74477> lilstevie, ?
Jun 13 14:30:29 <lilstevie> yes?
Jun 13 14:30:49 <Guest74477> Its James
Jun 13 14:30:53 <lilstevie> ah
Jun 13 14:30:54 <Guest74477> Got it to boot yet?
Jun 13 14:31:05 <lilstevie> im only around for a split second
Jun 13 14:31:45 <Guest74477> ok
Jun 13 14:32:08 <Guest74477> cwillu gave some good advice on booting to x
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 14 02:59:57 2010