**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 08 03:00:02 2012 May 08 05:37:26 any modern arm netbooks? May 08 05:37:40 is it still all TABLET TABLET TABLET May 08 05:38:44 or is the AC100 still the cutting edge? with only 512MB ram May 08 05:44:09 and where can i buy the ac100? May 08 05:45:05 scientes: I use TF101 as a netbook May 08 05:45:20 Otherwise you only have those shitty samsung and nanonotes and stuff May 08 05:45:41 what about this one http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/products/touchbook.htm ? May 08 05:45:51 eek single-core May 08 05:46:09 It looked good but it's one of those "hey I made this in my basement" products May 08 05:46:24 like the pandora May 08 05:46:35 oooh T101 looks good May 08 05:46:37 1GB ram May 08 05:46:50 scientes: TF101 is a cunt to actually support all the peripherals like bt tho. May 08 05:46:52 does it have the non-free nvidia driver? and does nouveau run on it? May 08 05:46:54 lilstevie has been working on it May 08 05:47:28 how about that 5MP camera? May 08 05:47:35 I've never even tried to use the camera May 08 05:47:39 is there some reasonable camera software? May 08 05:47:52 Um, I'm running ubuntu on mine May 08 05:48:04 eek $600 is a bit big on the pricetag May 08 05:48:23 well, i guess i've never tried debian/ubuntu as A camera May 08 05:48:29 only managing photos from other camera May 08 05:48:36 I got mine to the point where it would give me an xterm and ssh and 802.11 and then I stopped caring about doing it "right" May 08 05:48:56 lol, why not just use a dev board then , thats alot cheaper May 08 05:49:09 scientes: because dev boards do not have 10hr battery life May 08 05:49:11 soooo again, what about nvidia prop, + nouveau May 08 05:49:27 scientes: AFAIK you cannot get accelerated graphics on it unless you run ChromeOS kernel May 08 05:49:30 so is the price still $600? May 08 05:49:41 But there was some progress being made around 3.3 or 3.4 IIRC May 08 05:49:44 twb, how about nouveau on ARM? May 08 05:49:47 NFI May 08 05:50:01 and does the nvidia prop have a open-source shim too? May 08 05:50:05 Re price, it's now about two gens behind current, so probably it's $400 new May 08 05:50:14 ok, where can i get it? May 08 05:50:30 scientes: random netbook vendor? I got mine in officeworks or JB Hifi May 08 05:50:37 im actually just going to recommend it to my dad May 08 05:50:48 Oh, so he's going to run android on it? May 08 05:50:55 not sure May 08 05:51:07 id much rather something that is OSS May 08 05:51:35 If you care about freedom, you might look at the efika mx or the yeloong loongson May 08 05:51:56 You can't walk into a store and get them, and they're crap hw, but they're very free May 08 05:51:57 the yeloong is sure interesting May 08 05:52:16 Yeeloong is a stone cold bitch to get. I have someone in china that has been trying to buy me one for like two years. May 08 05:52:24 the only arm device i have is the sheevaplug which is extremely free May 08 05:52:34 sheevaplug is shite, I have one May 08 05:52:39 yep May 08 05:52:44 * scientes really wants armv7 May 08 05:52:50 And the pogo burns out if you use both nics May 08 05:53:02 honestly you dont need two nics May 08 05:53:18 If you want to run debian armhf or current ubuntu, you *need* armv7 anyway May 08 05:53:21 people dont understand that MAC layer and ip layer are seperate May 08 05:53:31 yes, armhf is really where it is out May 08 05:53:39 and this oneis too slow for alot of things May 08 05:53:40 scientes: physical separation is a Good Thing though, e.g. for a router May 08 05:53:49 however it makes a great mail server May 08 05:53:56 twb: The pogo could have been a useful router, but if it burns out when you use the 2 NICs... May 08 05:54:13 TheMuso: if you use them at gige speed IIRC May 08 05:54:17 twb, well, i've done it without that, which people dont understand that they can do May 08 05:54:28 I just turn on transparent bridging mode in the "modem" May 08 05:54:49 * scientes of which every one ive seen for a while is a rebranded ar47 mips May 08 05:54:52 TheMuso: passively cooled May 08 05:54:54 twb: Right, and I would want to do that, given I have 100mbps cable, which is actually set at 120mbps by Telstra. May 08 05:55:03 from TI May 08 05:55:24 AR47 huh? Is that a mashup of Kalashnikov and Stoner rifles? ;-) May 08 05:55:42 TheMuso: you lucky bastard May 08 05:55:58 twb: yes I am fortunate enogh to be able to get that. May 08 05:56:15 Did you suck trujillo off or something May 08 05:56:21 No. May 08 05:56:28 twb, http://paste.debian.net/167804/ May 08 05:56:30 he is no longer involved with Telstra. May 08 05:56:38 they all have root telnet enabled by default from LAN May 08 05:56:43 If he was, I doubt I'd have 100mbps cable. May 08 05:57:34 http://paste.debian.net/167805/ May 08 05:58:03 oh wait, ar7, little freudian slip May 08 05:58:42 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-AR7 May 08 05:59:24 twb, so is the TF101 fairly well supported by ubuntu? May 08 05:59:30 scientes: not really May 08 05:59:34 scientes: but talk to lilstevie_ May 08 05:59:45 scientes: ARM is not like x86 where you can just buy a box and most stuff will work May 08 06:00:02 scientes: ARM is more like you buy a box and *maybe* you can actually install *something* and it'll even boot, after six months May 08 06:00:41 twb, well I guess my exp with sheevaplug mainline-ness has me a little diff on expectations May 08 06:00:58 Shrug May 08 06:01:01 I am aware that there are plenty of non-free drivers on arm May 08 06:01:14 The situation is plenty better if you pick a box that lots of devs are also running May 08 06:01:26 of course, thats why i ask here... May 08 06:01:34 something like the vivaldi May 08 06:01:44 But AFAIK that only one like that atm is the panda May 08 06:01:48 And that's not a netbook May 08 06:01:54 however a keyboard is kinda nice, i guess you can always use a usb keyboard May 08 06:02:09 scientes: not always :-) May 08 06:02:33 USB is master/slave (not peer/peer, like 1394), so if the tablet is set up as a slave, you can't hook up slave HIDs to it May 08 06:02:33 twb, worked with the sheevaplug :) May 08 06:02:49 oh yeah, usb gadget ports i see May 08 06:03:08 1394 also happens to support instant root..... May 08 06:03:11 via DMA May 08 06:03:28 If you care about that you might as well avoid all EFI and ACPI too May 08 06:03:32 Good luck with that May 08 06:03:43 and System Management Mode May 08 06:04:19 http://www.cyber.com.au/~twb/doc/tf101.txt are some old notes when I was actually trying to get my tf101 working fully May 08 06:04:55 There are newer models, e.g. TF Prime May 08 06:05:51 classy quote of May 08 06:05:52 http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_on_Trusting_Trust :) May 08 06:06:27 twb, the thing with 1394 is that you can easily reprogram an iPod May 08 06:06:59 and if you HAVE firewire and someone just wants to sync their iPod you would be an asshole to refuse (of course they all just use usb now, so its kinda moot) May 08 06:07:24 so id rather not have 1394 at all May 08 06:07:28 Well I don't know about that, but 1394 is IMO a categorically better protocol than USB May 08 06:07:35 When USB starts up, it has to fucking POLL for devices May 08 06:08:06 And I get the impression that USB 2 and 3 just layer more cruft on, instead of paring it down May 08 06:09:22 http://www.hermann-uwe.de/blog/physical-memory-attacks-via-firewire-dma-part-1-overview-and-mitigation May 08 06:10:31 Shrug. You fix that by downgrading MUST to SHOULD in the spec. May 08 06:11:41 Presumably the MMU should be preventing the 1394 device from speaking DMA to an arbitrary hunk of RAM May 08 06:11:45 or by using an IOMMU May 08 06:11:53 Right May 08 06:11:58 twb, you can't do it with a MMU, you need an IOMMU May 08 06:12:13 Aren't they standard these days? May 08 06:12:21 not even on x86 May 08 06:12:32 in the CPUs they are standard, but few chipsets support it May 08 06:12:38 I thought AMD included them all the time May 08 06:12:45 Fair enough May 08 06:13:28 I wonder how, as a hardware buyer, I could check if a part would speak to my IOMMU May 08 06:13:55 yeah, i've been excited about them for a while, whichout getting one, May 08 06:14:20 I think telling people they can run windows in a VM and forward a whole GPU is a good selling point for those that play alot of games May 08 06:14:51 I wouldn't know. I don't connect games machines to a network, and I don't dual-boot them as anything other than games machines May 08 06:15:22 you wouldn't have to, networking is optional in virtualization May 08 06:15:33 just means you can run both at the same time May 08 06:16:00 That assumes you trust the virtualization layer May 08 06:16:13 otherwise you need wine for graphics May 08 06:16:16 of course May 08 06:16:18 I certainly don't trust it as much as an air gap May 08 13:54:48 Hey! What type of ubuntu would you recommend for this toughbook ? http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughpad/us/secure-tablet-specs.asp Shall I put some ubuntu-arm on this ? If yes, which version ? May 08 13:59:25 perhaps 12.04 ? May 08 14:10:28 or would it be better to use 11.10 ? May 08 14:42:23 djszapi: i'd start with the latest and only look back if absolutely necessary May 08 14:42:55 what cpu is that running on? May 08 14:43:21 actually, not arm. May 08 14:43:23 I was wrong. May 08 14:43:25 i've only played around with the "normal" toughbooks, never seen an arm-based one May 08 14:43:26 is 12.04 stable ? May 08 14:43:43 12.04 is released and marked as lts May 08 14:44:02 lts = long term support (five years of updates) May 08 14:44:57 imo the best release since 10.10 May 08 14:45:51 shall I use 32 or 64 bit ? May 08 14:45:57 I have been using 64 bit on desktop since ever. May 08 14:46:06 but I am unsure if that is a risky selection for a toughbook. May 08 14:47:43 djszapi: on arm? May 08 14:48:40 ah, it wasn't arm May 08 14:48:40 gildean: it is apparently not an arm, no. May 08 14:49:06 i'd use 64bit then May 08 14:49:10 * djszapi is downloading the "12.04 ubuntu desktop i386" version. May 08 14:49:41 ok, redownloading... May 08 14:50:01 iirc there are absolutelu no reason to use 32bit anymore if your processor is capable of 64 May 08 14:50:16 or afaik more than iirc May 08 14:50:34 as there used to be some problems, but really haven't seen any for years May 08 14:50:44 gildean: if it is memory-contrained (<2Gb) I'd used 32-bit to same some memory, but for almost everything else 64-bit makes sense May 08 14:50:57 yeah, true May 08 14:50:59 *save May 08 14:51:25 but memory is so cheap these days, all of my crappy boxes have at least 4GB May 08 14:51:49 basically you can get ddr2 for free May 08 14:51:58 both dimm and so-dimm May 08 14:52:27 8 GB memory May 08 14:52:37 ddr3 May 08 14:52:58 yeah, with 32bit you would waste 5GB May 08 14:54:04 gildean: not with 32-bit LPAE kernels May 08 14:55:16 I guess this still works nowadays: "sudo dd if=/path/to/ubuntu.img of=/dev/sdX bs=1m " May 08 14:55:34 (having issues with the usb-creator because of the python 2 and 3 mess ;) May 08 14:55:55 amitk: i've never tried, does it actually work well? May 08 14:56:32 gildean: sure May 08 14:56:42 compared to actually having 64bit? May 08 14:57:18 not that there would be any point of running 32bit if the cpu has the instruction set, but anyways May 08 14:57:34 gildean: it is for people that are stuck on 32-bit for some app that doesn't run on 64-bit (used to be Skype, etc., but no longer) May 08 15:00:34 yeah, a thing of the past that i never tried May 08 15:00:44 and prolly never will May 08 15:08:44 gildean: does this version use unity ? May 08 15:09:18 I am just worried about the autohide. May 08 15:09:36 the bar on the left, thati s. May 08 15:09:38 that is* May 08 15:26:29 * djszapi is making "dd if=/home/lpapp/Downloads/ubuntu-12.04-desktop-amd64.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=1M" May 08 15:31:23 djszapi: to a USB key? I use "startup disk creator" in ubuntu May 08 15:37:43 djszapi: unity has been the default desktop since 11.04, but the latest version doesn't have autohide by default May 08 15:39:08 thanks god :) May 08 15:40:02 you can set it under appearances if you want to try May 08 15:40:37 it also has a sensitivity-bar so you can adjust the "pressure" needed to show the launcher May 08 15:41:32 how do i do that May 08 15:41:36 adjust the pressure May 08 15:41:44 i'd like to adjust it to 0 please! May 08 15:43:13 gildean: err....touch does not really work after the "Try Ubuntu" or "Install Ubuntu" screen... May 08 15:43:18 on my toughbook, that is. May 08 15:43:28 booting from the usb flash drive... May 08 15:44:00 * djszapi already sees ubuntu's poor hardware support for even installing that :( May 08 15:44:25 jhobbs: under appearance->behavior May 08 15:44:48 djszapi: did you "try ubuntu" first? May 08 15:44:58 like I said, I cannot even touch stuff May 08 15:45:04 no touch input accepted. May 08 15:45:16 ok, so the touchscreen doesn't work ootb May 08 15:45:29 right May 08 15:45:32 you'll need a mouse May 08 15:45:45 I do not have yet another usb port on the device May 08 15:45:46 just one, for the installation media May 08 15:46:04 no bt mice or usb-hubs around? May 08 15:46:25 no, sorry. May 08 15:46:42 toughbook should come with a usb-hub May 08 15:47:23 ok found a hub, but not related to the toughbook though May 08 15:47:40 interesting that I was able to remove the usb flash drive for putting the usb hub in there without loosing the ubuntu screen May 08 15:47:44 at least the ones i've seen all had a 2-port hub with rubber cap May 08 15:47:48 oh, now it complains. May 08 15:47:52 have to reboot, I presume. May 08 15:47:57 yeah May 08 15:49:20 gildean: I do not have the toughbook connected to the internet May 08 15:49:24 will that cause issues ? May 08 15:49:32 I have downloaded an about 700 MB iso. May 08 15:49:45 desktop AMD64 ISO, that is. May 08 15:50:00 if you want to get the touchscreen working, i'm sure you'll ned something from the internet May 08 15:50:00 "Download updates while installing" box is unchecked. May 08 15:50:17 but for installing internet is not needed May 08 15:54:34 gildean: installer crashed :( May 08 16:00:57 djszapi: did you actually run the live-version first? May 08 16:01:21 gildean: nope May 08 16:01:54 maybe just try that first? May 08 16:05:46 gildean: keeps crashing after a reboot :( May 08 16:08:21 gildean: what to do with the try ? May 08 16:08:39 I would need to install the system in the end anyway May 08 16:09:13 i'd start by googling May 08 16:09:29 for ? May 08 16:09:46 the model + ubuntu May 08 16:09:53 nothing found previously. May 08 16:10:10 or something like that May 08 16:10:36 also, you might be better off asking in the general ubuntu-channel instead of here May 08 16:10:41 I am now trying a customized installation May 08 16:18:26 gildean: to be honest, I rarely got help in #ubuntu, but will try there. May 08 16:20:54 djszapi: then maybe on your countrys own channel May 08 16:21:20 usually less people and more eager to help May 08 16:27:54 hi guys, do you know of a cheap arm panel pc as a complete product that you can recommend? I have plenty of beagleboard, pandaboard, igep platform, but for each one you have to develop an enclosure, find a compatible lcd with touch, etc ... May 08 16:29:14 use $SONSUMERGRADETABLET May 08 16:30:55 LetoThe2nd: tablet is not the same, they have not gpio ports easly accessible and generally lacking an ethernet port or an sd card reader, or usb or external monitor... htey are simply tablets, not panel pcs ... May 08 16:31:25 angeloc: but they are cheap and come with an enclusure ;P May 08 16:32:10 LetoThe2nd: yes sure, but they are made for entertain! May 08 16:33:09 angeloc: use http://www.phytec.de/de/produkte/low-cost-pnp-systeme/produktdetails/p/physys.html and put http://www.phytec.de/de/produkte/module-im-ueberblick/phycard/produktdetails/p/phycard-xl2.html inside May 08 16:33:20 angeloc: or generally ask them. May 08 16:33:59 alternatovely just buy a lilliput LCD panel and attach it to one of your boards May 08 16:35:08 ogra_: yes it's what's i'm doing, but for some projects (here in Italy we are very strong with industrial automation) you cannot go wi a board with a monitor attacched May 08 16:36:36 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: and it's really a waste of time to ask for quotations, i'm looking for something well engineered with a clear price that I can order also in quantity of one! May 08 16:38:05 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i'm working for an electronics manufacturing company, we can create our platform, but we prefer to buy something done! May 08 16:39:36 angeloc: well then you can ask http://www.garz-fricke.de/ or http://www.ultratronik.de/ May 08 16:40:08 angeloc: but saying: "i want exactly one, i want it now, i want it cheap, and it has to offer everything" is usually a bad starting point. May 08 16:41:17 well, i dont know any such device you can buy of the shelf beyond what i could google May 08 16:41:36 ogra_: an ac100 and an usb gpio expander :) May 08 16:41:36 LetoThe2nd: you don't say this when you buy your new shiny laptop! I'm aware of compromises, sure! May 08 16:41:47 haha May 08 16:42:00 ogra_: it even would run ubuntu, then. May 08 16:42:15 but is lacking a touchscreen May 08 16:43:29 angeloc: no, i'm just pointing out that you are very demanding and showing neither own effort nor willingness to trace any possibilities, you only say over and over again "i don't like that because of X, now give me the next suggestion". sorry, but that how you apper to me. May 08 16:43:37 LetoThe2nd: but going trough asking quotation, make a custom design, sign a non disclosure agreement, no this is not our way. Nevertheless we are an electronics manufacturing company, why ask someone else to make what we can do? I want a product, nobody assemble his laptot! May 08 16:44:11 nayways, i have given my ideas, mostly afk then again. May 08 16:44:55 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA5Nzk May 08 16:44:56 heh May 08 16:45:38 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i found this, http://www.developmentboard.net/board-packages/119-tenbyten6410-with-megadisplay7s-with-7pe.html May 08 16:46:50 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: it's like what i'm looking for, but cannot find a great support for linux (or ubuntu) it's a derivative of friendlyarm 6410 May 08 16:47:10 is it v7 ? May 08 16:47:14 ogra_: no. May 08 16:47:21 no ubuntu then May 08 16:48:55 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: yes, no ubuntu May 08 16:51:40 ogra_, LetoThe2nd: i'm falling in love with igep platform, really small and amazing, but we have to make too internal work to make a product May 08 16:54:55 * ogra_ goes for a smoke and then moves to the next UDS session May 08 16:55:07 * LetoThe2nd goes off for the night May 08 18:38:10 marvin24, hi, did you say you had a 3.4 based ac100 tree somewhere ? May 08 19:02:03 janimo`, its somewhere in his gitorious trees May 08 19:02:12 janimo`, i'm running 3.1 here btw May 08 19:02:48 ogra_, I checked the git repo but did not see a branch with 3.4 May 08 19:03:06 if there is one it makes sense to upload that and skip other versin altogether May 08 19:03:10 i have it cloned but not with me atm May 08 19:03:25 only if it fully works May 08 19:03:45 we should test it vs the 3.1 tree May 08 19:09:14 janimo`, http://gitorious.org/ac100/marvin24s-kernel/trees/for-next May 08 19:09:40 ah, for-next May 08 20:04:53 I'm curious what is the ubuntu kernel to be used for the beagleboard-xM? I see linux-image-omap but there are references to x86 in the description. May 08 20:45:11 travalas: The beagleXM kernel is the same rev as the x86/amd64 kernel. It is from the mainline kernel.org stuff (not a dev kernel like the omap4/mx5/ac100 kernels). May 08 20:45:50 So, for 12.04, it is 3.2. Not sure what kernel will ship with 12.10. May 08 21:01:21 GrueMaster: so linux-image-omap is indeed correct? May 08 21:02:13 I believe so, yes. To be sure, give me a sec to remote in to my home network. May 08 21:05:10 i think i was using a nonstandard kernel on my beagleboardXM and i'd like to get back to the "stock kernel" May 08 21:05:33 linux-image-omap is a meta package. You will want linux-image--omap (i.e. linux-image-3.2.0-23-omap). May 08 21:07:09 If your system has the stock kernel installed, you can easily switch with "sudo flash-kernel " (sudo flash-kernel vmlinuz-3.2.0-23). May 08 21:07:31 Look in /boot May 08 21:21:58 travalas: The references to x86 in the package description are just a cosmetic packaging bug, linux-image-omap is indeed the correct package to have installed. May 09 01:32:19 :D May 09 01:33:50 TY for creating a v7 distro. There's hope yet my v4 will run something current yet. :D **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 09 02:59:58 2012