**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 21 02:59:59 2012 Dec 21 07:59:34 good morning Dec 21 11:06:25 hi Dec 21 11:07:23 how can i search for / browse the availbable packages for ubuntu for arm? like 'apt-cache search' but online? Dec 21 11:08:27 I want to search a bit before I replace my Angstrom with Ubuntu Dec 21 11:10:15 tempin: packages.ubuntu.com Dec 21 11:10:16 tempin: 99% of what you find in apt-cache on x86 will also be there on arm. Dec 21 11:10:25 persia: packages.ubuntu.com doesn't list ports. Dec 21 11:10:38 someone should kill the very idea of ports :/ Dec 21 11:10:49 tempin: rmadison will work, if you're curious if ports are in sync for something specific. Dec 21 11:11:21 persia: This isn't actually about the "ports" split at all, it's just that Rhonda hasn't gotten around to making it do all arches (I've asked). Dec 21 11:11:49 persia: packages.ubuntu.com isn't an "official" service in any meaningful way. Dec 21 11:12:39 tempin: Generally, unless you happen to have a deep love of haskell bits, you won't find anything missing on ARM that you care about, I imagine. Dec 21 11:12:57 tempin: "Ubuntu for ARM" is about as meaningless as "Ubuntu for i386", it's all just Ubuntu, built for many arches. Dec 21 11:17:29 infinity: thanks, didn't know that! I got a beaglebone as a gift and this is all completely new to me :) Dec 21 11:18:49 tempin: It's one of the nicer things we inherited from Debian. The idea that you can bounce from arch to arch and, other than some just inherently unportable or broken software, the rest is all there, in the same versions, and works exactly the same. Dec 21 11:19:34 So, once you get past bootloaders, installers, and kernels being slightly different (sometimes), and you've logged in, you'll find it's indistinguishable from your Intel box. Except slow. :P Dec 21 11:21:00 * persia has intel machines that are slower than some arm machines with Ubuntu installed Dec 21 11:21:51 I don't have any PPros that old (nor any A15s) Dec 21 11:22:03 Mine's an A100 Dec 21 11:22:12 I used to have slow Intel kit running Ubuntu (P200MMX), but we dropped support. :/ Dec 21 11:22:27 I think at 450MHz, but it might be 600. Used to run lpia, back when folk thought that was a good idea. Dec 21 11:22:49 Ahh, yeah, a decent A9 would outperform that. Dec 21 11:23:08 That said, the current crop of A15s will outperform a fair chunk of Intel hardware we support. Dec 21 11:23:15 The gap is closing faster than I thought it would. Dec 21 11:24:01 I'm actually getting pretty excited to see functional aardvarch64 silicon. Dec 21 11:24:01 You underestimate the volume of underclocked ia32 chips with limited featuresets used in the embedded world. Dec 21 11:24:55 Define "limited"... We don't support anything << 686 anymore. Dec 21 11:25:18 It's doesn't require that much power. An 800MHz i.MX51 handily outperformed 600MHz A100. Dec 21 11:25:18 But yeah, even in the 686 world, there's a ton of variety out there, I know. Dec 21 11:25:58 Much of "lpia" claimed i686, and could handle enough of it that we've only lost a few processors (including the A100: one needs at least an Atom to run Ubuntu) Dec 21 11:26:32 Really? What instruction is missing? Dec 21 11:26:39 IIRC CMOV Dec 21 11:27:04 Oh, we may have gone cmov by default, I forgot about that. Dec 21 11:27:29 Right, we did with karmic, and lots of folk with that big tablet that had the split keyboard complained it wouldn't boot. Dec 21 11:27:31 That's not "686", mind you, that's a conscious decision to be 686+cmov and screw a few CPUs. Dec 21 11:27:59 Indeed, which is why I say your claim we need 686 isn'5 sufficient, but we're well off topic. Dec 21 11:28:19 In summary, don't claim ARM is slow because it's ARM: that's not the case (except in certain very special circumstances). Dec 21 11:28:31 Oh, I was doing no such thing. Dec 21 11:28:41 Claim that a *given specific* chip is slow because it has a low clock rate, or because it has some design feature that requires lots of overhead. Dec 21 11:29:07 ARM is slow at the top end because of its historical target market. That's the gap I was talking about closing faster than I thought it would. Dec 21 11:29:14 Except slow. :P!" :p Dec 21 11:29:31 persia: A beaglebone is slower than most people's desktops. Just sayin'. Dec 21 11:29:43 That's not really fair, but yeah :) Dec 21 11:29:59 (even I don't have any Intel kit which works and is that slow) Dec 21 11:30:35 thanks all for the quick info/help! byebye Dec 21 11:30:45 I think we bored him off IRC. Dec 21 11:30:49 Do we win a prize? Dec 21 11:31:16 Dunce hats: it's our turn to sit in the corner and feel guilty. Dec 21 11:32:20 I might just have a dunce nap instead. Dec 21 11:33:41 :) Dec 21 11:35:25 lol Dec 21 13:37:06 is not cmov part of pentiumpro core (first i686)? Dec 21 13:41:46 hrw: I think he was saying it is missing on some lpia cpus Dec 21 13:45:27 x86 is a mess Dec 21 13:45:35 :p Dec 21 13:45:42 although arm is too Dec 21 13:46:04 i486 was last sensible name. i586 had too many options already Dec 21 13:46:11 lilstevie: not so much. Dec 21 13:46:38 hrw: heh Dec 21 13:46:50 but also messy Dec 21 13:47:08 armv4 is one. armv4t had few options (ep93xx vfp for example) Dec 21 13:47:36 armv5t could have iwmmxt if was intel/marvell Dec 21 13:47:43 armv6 had vfp optional Dec 21 13:47:45 ISA designers seem to take 4 generations to discover that there are multiple audiences for their products... Dec 21 13:47:52 yes Dec 21 13:48:00 Versions up to 4 are usually OK, and after tend to be all over the map. Dec 21 13:48:19 IIRC, the split between POWER and PPC was with POWER5 as well. Dec 21 13:48:23 tbh arm problems aren't really related to the ISA though, more the inconsistencies between vendors Dec 21 13:48:54 not that embedded x86 is any better Dec 21 13:49:05 lilstevie: Such inconsistency is partially driven by the presence of optional features in the ISA. With a consistent ISA, software doesn't care as much about implementation differences. Dec 21 13:49:48 persia: except with the boot flow, that is just each vendor doing it their own way Dec 21 13:50:35 Yeah, ARM is special that way. Most architectures agree on a common pre-boot interface and implement solutions to reach a common starting point. Dec 21 13:50:52 * persia blames a big gap in available general purpose consumer devices in the ARM world Dec 21 13:51:15 yeah Dec 21 13:51:27 (the same thing is starting to be more common for ppc too, because there's a lack of general devices, so everyone "optimises" differently playing embedded games) Dec 21 13:51:53 persia: even on x86 you have several booting methods. but much less popular then on arm Dec 21 13:52:38 hrw: Right, but there are (four) standards that are mostly used outside of the embedded market. For true embedded devices, it's *much better* to specialise. Dec 21 13:53:02 * persia remains triumphantly glad that nobody every made any serious effort to make Ubuntu embedded-suitable Dec 21 13:53:24 lol Dec 21 13:54:14 No, really. There was talk about it with the "UME" effort, which was quelled enough that "Ubuntu Mobile" was a normal OS, if tuned a bit for lower power consumption and touch. Dec 21 13:54:41 And every once in a while someone brings it up again, like the folk that wanted to rebuild as much as possible against dietlibc Dec 21 13:55:29 But most folk really want to be able to program in a general purpose environment (and only a few actually understand how to work without automated memory management, or even without automatic garbage collection), so it doesn't happen. Dec 21 14:07:40 dietlibc... Dec 21 14:07:58 it's for those which have cpus with 4K of ram? Dec 21 14:47:21 mfisch: ping Dec 21 14:48:47 is the Raring Nexus 7 image using the Ubuntu kernel now, or still a modified version of the Android kernel? Dec 21 14:49:51 mhall119: it will be a modified version of the android kernel else you would not be able to get acceleration Dec 21 14:54:43 thanks lilstevie Dec 21 14:57:45 mhall119: yeah still android and I believe it still also has some binary drivers Dec 21 15:30:54 what makes it "android" kernel? It is the same yes, but configured differently. It's not missing anything by being an "android kernel". A bit older than what it could be otherwise though Dec 21 15:31:47 also it will always have binary libraries for hw acceleration Dec 21 15:43:23 ogra_: we're screwed! time to go shopping :| Dec 21 17:33:09 janimo: I pushed a linux-ac100-3.8 to my gitorious tree Dec 21 17:33:27 what's the best way to provide patches? Dec 21 18:11:32 hey ubuntu arm Dec 21 18:11:58 i was wondering if anyone know about support for the Avatar AVRA-138A1 Dec 21 18:14:26 marvin24_: janimo is on holidays until 2013... email might be better than irc Dec 21 18:15:37 achiang: ok, thanks Dec 21 18:15:50 * marvin24_ should have guessed that ... Dec 21 18:19:17 or anyone have a resource on determing bootability? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 22 02:59:58 2012