**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Nov 10 03:00:00 2014 Nov 11 00:45:44 hey folks. the info on the wiki pages seems outdated. is there still a supported arm port? Nov 11 00:46:26 i'm thinking if ubuntu's still supporting arm, it might be nice to get lubuntu arm images. i was thinking about buying a board and doing testing. Nov 11 00:46:41 specifically, i'm leaning towards a beaglebone black or a riotboard. Nov 11 00:47:44 of the two, i'm a little more excited about the riotboard, especially given the freescale chip. i have a buddy that works for them and i'd like to support them! Nov 11 00:49:22 what is outdated? Nov 11 00:49:53 there should be the same support like it was for 13.10/14.04 Nov 11 00:50:15 well the only thing that was mentioned on the Ubuntu/Arm page is 12.04 Nov 11 00:51:20 also there's no mention of the i.MX 6 Nov 11 00:51:52 beagleboard is supported Nov 11 00:52:26 the original from what i can tell Nov 11 00:52:34 not the black which uses a differnent chip Nov 11 00:52:35 but its not like you put a cd into a arm device and its all fine. most times you need some work Nov 11 00:52:49 please elaborate Nov 11 00:53:45 the driver situation is worse on arm. its not like we have generic or open drivers as fallback. in most cases you need to get the drivers and that can be a showstopper Nov 11 00:54:28 you're referring to the drivers for non-processor components? Nov 11 00:55:48 meh maybe i should just give a shot Nov 11 01:00:46 wxl: http://elinux.org/BeagleBoardUbuntu Nov 11 01:02:05 well that's promising Nov 11 01:02:16 i guess tl;dr i need to just go hunting :) Nov 11 01:02:22 which is fine Nov 11 01:03:11 dont expect the situation as with a modern laptop, where you just put in a ubuntu.iso and you are fine to go. Nov 11 01:05:20 wxl: Building full lubuntu images isn't worth the effort, as we'd need to build a different one for each target platform just to be able to boot them. Nov 11 01:05:43 wxl: Telling people to use the d-i images and then install lubuntu-desktop as their last step would work much better, and is already supported today. Nov 11 01:05:54 infinity: oh! Nov 11 01:06:06 infinity: by d-i you mean.... netboot? Nov 11 01:06:11 wxl: Right. Nov 11 01:06:14 right. Nov 11 01:07:03 wxl: No guarantees that the generic kernel has all the right options turned on (or builds the DTB) for your platform, but we don't have every board in the world, so the only way we can support everyone is for you to fiddle a bit and let us know what works, and we can fix up our configs to work there. Nov 11 01:07:06 infinity: so is there any likelihood that there WILL be full *ubuntu images for arm? Nov 11 01:07:40 wxl: No, because a "full" image can't be bootable on more than one system, and building 40 of them would be ridiculous. Nov 11 01:07:54 wxl: Welcome to the world of platform differentiation. Nov 11 01:08:17 infinity: this is due to all the different instruction sets and such? Nov 11 01:08:46 wxl: This is why, say, Cyanogen builds images for dozens of targets. But that's their business, and their userbase, it's not ours, so not worth our time to even try. Nov 11 01:08:59 wxl: No, the instruction sets are the same, or the general userspace wouldn't work. Nov 11 01:09:18 wxl: It's the base platforms being different, needing different early bootloader setups, etc, etc. Nov 11 01:09:26 ic Nov 11 01:09:27 wxl: There's no generic BIOS-like standard on ARM. Nov 11 01:09:31 OH Nov 11 01:09:35 that explains a lot then Nov 11 01:10:22 wxl: just think about we needed own ubuntu iso for every intel or amd cpu mixed with the intel, amd, nvidia video card setup. Nov 11 01:10:32 yeah that's stupid Nov 11 01:10:55 so the arm world has a lot more work ahead of them if they intend to really take over the processor world Nov 11 01:11:04 wxl: No, they've taken over just fine. Nov 11 01:11:17 infinity: in terms of numbers. Nov 11 01:11:17 wxl: If they want to take over the generic desktop world, sure, but they don't care about that market. :P Nov 11 01:11:22 arm is very different in that way, sadly. thats what i meant with dont expect the typical PC experience with just booting a standard iso Nov 11 01:11:30 wxl: In terms of numbers, they took over the world years ago. Nov 11 01:11:36 well this is very educational Nov 11 01:11:44 thank you btoh for taking the time to explain this all :) Nov 11 01:11:55 wxl: I know people with several ARM devices, and not a single x86 device. It's a brave new world. Nov 11 01:12:59 well i think i have more arm devices in the house than not :) Nov 11 01:13:15 Exactly. Nov 11 01:13:19 So, they won when you weren't counting. Nov 11 01:13:24 i think we will get some more generic drivers some day. but that takes some time. Nov 11 01:13:35 Like I said, they don't care about the generic desktop/laptop market yet (they might some day). Nov 11 01:13:52 they seem to be edging closer and closer Nov 11 01:14:00 They do care about the server market, but server systems have burned in firmware and device-trees, and can all boot fine with a generic installer. Nov 11 01:14:15 Dev boards don't have such luxuries. :P Nov 11 01:14:18 And zero standardization. Nov 11 01:14:34 Pretty much intentionally, because most dev boards are NOT meant for desktop/server dev, they're meant to emulate phones. Nov 11 01:14:43 right Nov 11 01:14:47 And phones are as differentiated as people. Nov 11 01:14:49 you've hard of the novena i'm assuming? Nov 11 01:15:37 Was that the one from bunnie? Nov 11 01:15:49 https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop Nov 11 01:15:55 Yeah, that's the bunnie one. Nov 11 01:16:22 It's a fun experiment, but crazy overpriced and bulky. Nov 11 01:16:25 yeah Nov 11 01:16:33 oh there i see bunnie Nov 11 01:16:48 My laptop usecases pretty much demand that I have to wait for a Lenovo or a Dell to make a decent ARM laptop. Nov 11 01:17:07 i guess the real reason for ubuntu-arm to exist is really to support touch then, no? Nov 11 01:17:18 wxl: And ARM hyperscale servers. Nov 11 01:17:27 oh really? Nov 11 01:17:42 wxl: But our pure desktop use case was always sort of proof-of-concept. I mean, no normal non-hacker person was going to buy a Pandaboard and use that as their desktop computer. Nov 11 01:17:44 the server subpage was a bit confusing Nov 11 01:18:01 wxl: The server website copy is crap, it's being rewritten, AFAIK. Nov 11 01:18:07 it seemed to suggest there were no current machines for them Nov 11 01:18:13 Yeah, that's a lie. :P Nov 11 01:18:19 hahahahah Nov 11 01:18:28 Every "server" system in the ARM server ecosystem (and there are a few) runs Ubuntu. Nov 11 01:18:36 very cool Nov 11 01:18:38 EIther ships with it, or can be installed post-ship, and is supported. Nov 11 01:19:12 Personally, I'm waiting for Apple to take the plunge and ship an ARM build of MacOS X running on an ARMv8 laptop. Nov 11 01:19:20 Not because I like Apple, or their hardware, or their OS. Nov 11 01:19:25 eheheheh Nov 11 01:19:32 But because hipsters think they're trendsetters. Nov 11 01:19:33 sounds like something they would do Nov 11 01:19:41 And it'll force the hand of the Lenovos of the world to make an ARM PC. Nov 11 01:19:44 Just to show they can. Nov 11 01:19:45 aaaaaaaaaand then threaten intel that they can get the arms cheaper Nov 11 01:19:53 And we're more ready for that than Microsoft is. Nov 11 01:19:58 just so they can forget the whole arm thing once they strongarm their way to a cheaper price Nov 11 01:20:19 wxl: Historically, Apple hasn't switched tech to hold people hostage, they switch tech out of spite. Nov 11 01:20:25 hahahahah Nov 11 01:20:31 touché Nov 11 01:20:52 wxl: Like, they didn't give Freescale a "scale up clock speed or we switch" ultimatum, Jobs just had a 12yo-style temper tantrum and said "fuck powerpc". Nov 11 01:21:12 yeah Nov 11 01:22:32 Cook seems slightly less, uhm, "passionate" than Jobs, though, so I doubt that sort of thing will happen in the future. Nov 11 01:22:54 yeah but apple's not necessarily all peaches and cream Nov 11 01:23:16 They haven't been either peaches or cream since the Apple ][. Nov 11 01:23:22 That was their last truly open platform. Nov 11 01:23:27 And it all went downhill from there. Nov 11 01:23:33 But meh. Nov 11 01:23:42 They drive the industry a fair bit, I can't complain about that. Nov 11 01:23:53 and hey Nov 11 01:23:56 they ARE unix Nov 11 01:23:59 I just wish Americans weren't so entranced by the idea that "more expensive" means "better". Nov 11 01:24:08 That's not Apple's fault, they just take great advantage ofit. Nov 11 01:24:10 not like most of their clients even know what the "OS" stands for XD Nov 11 01:24:40 i do give them kudos for doing free updates and offering betas within tim's reign Nov 11 01:24:45 MacOSX may be UNIX under the hood, but I find it the most awful unix/unix-like system to actually develop with. Nov 11 01:24:55 oh indeed Nov 11 01:24:57 I honestly don't get people who buy Mac laptop to develop for Linux servers. Nov 11 01:25:05 You basically learn it all twice anywat. :/ Nov 11 01:25:19 and honestly they've messed up a lot of the good parts Nov 11 01:25:32 so i went to oscon and was amazed at how many people had macs Nov 11 01:25:58 but i guess it wasn't linuxcon. it was oscon. different thing. Nov 11 01:26:01 They're amazingly common anywhere in *any* elite field in the US. Nov 11 01:26:07 Less common as you travel abroad. Nov 11 01:26:12 But Apple = Status symbol in the US. Nov 11 01:26:44 yeah it's pretty strange that Nov 11 01:26:46 So, if you're a doctor, lawyer, marketing exec and, yes, high profile software developer, you buy a Mac and an iPhone. Nov 11 01:27:02 They're the BMW (or pick your favourite high end car) of the computing world. Nov 11 01:27:42 Honestly, if the keyboards weren't shit, I'd probably own a MacBook Air. Not for the status, but because they're generally decent. Nov 11 01:27:47 But keyboards are everything for me. Nov 11 01:27:59 i LOVE the magic mouse Nov 11 01:28:03 Which means Lenovo will own my soul until they completely break theirs. Nov 11 01:28:26 which laptop do you have that the keyboard is so fantastic? i've yet to find one i really like. Nov 11 01:28:30 Oh, and the trackpoint. Becoming so rare these days, but so much more efficient than touchpads. Nov 11 01:28:41 ew no thank you Nov 11 01:28:46 you mean the input nipple? Nov 11 01:28:46 wxl: Pretty much any ThinkPad in the last two decades? Nov 11 01:28:54 yeah i've had a lot of thinkpads Nov 11 01:28:57 they're fine Nov 11 01:29:00 Yes, the "nipple". Nov 11 01:29:01 but i don't LOVE the keyboards Nov 11 01:29:27 Well, love is a bit strong, but it's the natural opposite to HATING the Apple/Samsung flat keyboards that give you RSI in about two minutes. Nov 11 01:29:28 but my work computer has a tactile keyboard so i'm a little spoiled Nov 11 01:29:32 heheheh Nov 11 01:30:26 someday when i'm rich i'll get a happy hacking keyboard Nov 11 01:30:29 wxl: My desktop keyboard is a rather expensive mechanical beast that I love dearly, but ThinkPad keyboards are the only thing I can stomach on laptops. Nov 11 01:30:51 yeah mechanical. that was the word i was looking for! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Nov 11 03:00:00 2014