**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Sep 18 02:59:56 2009 Sep 18 03:00:55 * oil is actually 40 some mins into it right now Sep 18 03:01:10 palm dude gave everyone in the audience a touchstone, weather they had a pre or not Sep 18 03:02:28 lol Sep 18 03:03:08 they could sell it for like $30 Sep 18 03:03:15 lol Sep 18 03:03:40 itll be a win-win. $30 buck for the person selling and $40/$10 less for the person buying Sep 18 03:05:49 heh, "are you the knife in the back of folio?" Sep 18 03:10:25 yeah Sep 18 03:10:46 after the interview when the other engadget guys are out there they keep making jokes about palm and what not Sep 18 03:16:31 lol Sep 18 03:16:35 20 mins in now Sep 18 03:39:15 the last section is basically a video form of their podcast Sep 18 03:39:17 lol Sep 18 03:42:05 45 mins in, yeah Sep 18 03:42:16 perhaps i should subscribe to their podcast Sep 18 03:42:25 always looking for good podcasts Sep 18 03:42:35 2 hours of commuting a day Sep 18 03:42:50 how do you do it ? Sep 18 03:43:00 bpadalino: the T and audiobooks and podcasts Sep 18 03:43:14 i commute 10 minutes each way .. and i probably can't handle a 25 minute commute each way Sep 18 03:43:15 bpadalino: an hour each way, not two hours each way Sep 18 03:43:27 still ... Sep 18 03:44:07 lol Sep 18 03:44:53 i can take a nap on the train as well, which i tend to do on a regular basis... Sep 18 03:46:33 yeah that may be better Sep 18 03:55:22 Has anyone tried the new Google Voice app? Sep 18 03:55:30 P2GoogleVoice Sep 18 03:55:51 PorkchopExpress: not very new, just new to the app catalog. :) Sep 18 03:56:11 rwhitby: how to make a executable binary link to libs in /opt/lib Sep 18 03:56:25 ameng: -rpath /opt/lib Sep 18 03:56:46 I don't like the whole google voice thing. What people consider to be 'features' like transcribing of phone calls I call 'invasion of privacy' Sep 18 03:57:14 punzada: or targetted advertising fodder Sep 18 03:57:33 what i like is that 1 number -> many phones Sep 18 03:57:33 (which is the real motivation for absolutely everything that Google does) Sep 18 03:57:44 indeed Sep 18 03:57:47 in fact, you can choose which phones reach you at which times Sep 18 03:58:00 also, i like my google voice phone number 573GKATSEV Sep 18 03:58:45 google doesn't care what you do - they have no interest in invading your privacy. it gains no business outcome for them. they only care about getting more revenue from advertisers that think that their ads are more likely to be clicked by you due to what google knows about you. Sep 18 03:59:14 For the time being. Sep 18 03:59:34 what's the business case for invasion of privacy? Sep 18 03:59:36 but then they get a supena from a federal agency Sep 18 03:59:45 and hand over entire transcripts of conversations Sep 18 03:59:46 lol Sep 18 04:00:10 heh - the agency can get those things from any number of places, including your current phone company or voip provides. Sep 18 04:00:13 I'm not saying they're out to do it, but it's walking a very thin scary line. Sep 18 04:01:08 you're concerned about the federal agency invading your privacy. google is just a tool that they use. Sep 18 04:01:21 they have many other alternative tools I expect :-) Sep 18 04:01:39 well of course, but I dont like to volunteer for them :P Sep 18 04:01:52 you already have - you're talking here :-) Sep 18 04:02:15 I'm aware of my expectation of privacy on a public irc network :) Sep 18 04:02:36 at least it's not unreal running m_spy Sep 18 04:02:37 lol Sep 18 04:02:50 Decimation: no Sep 18 04:04:01 god damnit i keep losing on level 9 of topple ball Sep 18 04:05:38 punzada: ah, you just have unrealistic expectations of privacy on phone lines then :-) Sep 18 04:05:48 that could be Sep 18 04:06:48 I thought it was the law in the US that a federal agency could tap any means of voice communication at any time, and all carriers were forced by law to incorporate technology to allow that? Sep 18 04:07:23 no - it's not legal Sep 18 04:07:43 oh, given a court order that is Sep 18 04:07:53 given a court order or warrant, then yes Sep 18 04:08:01 tapping it is one thing, having an indefinite stack of transcribed logs is another Sep 18 04:08:04 but the technology is already in place, right? Sep 18 04:08:17 but you can't even record someone's voice without telling them Sep 18 04:08:48 unless you're the NSA ... Sep 18 04:08:50 yes - they have the technology in place to track and will do so if ordered by the courts with a warrant Sep 18 04:09:43 the NSA is an interesting organization Sep 18 04:10:10 I'm quite sure that the NSA records and stores any phone call I make when in the US, and any electronic IP packets from me that terminate or transit through the US, and act accordingly. Sep 18 04:10:30 you specifically ? Sep 18 04:10:36 woo hoo I beat level 10. Sep 18 04:10:37 finally. Sep 18 04:10:47 now you can beat level 11! Sep 18 04:10:51 bpadalino: any foreign national I expect - isn't that their job? Sep 18 04:10:52 there is no level 11. Sep 18 04:11:01 not any foreign national Sep 18 04:13:12 we have so many foreign nationals that come in for radio training ... we have to tell the NSA they're coming, but i doubt they record or track their movements around the city Sep 18 04:23:19 we always have FN's wear bright yellow badges when they come to visit to help make sure we don't have export violations Sep 18 04:34:13 we have red badges for the same purpose Sep 18 04:34:43 whats good Sep 18 04:34:52 we waterboard them Sep 18 04:35:49 btw, bpadalino, the laws regarding voice recordings are different from state to state. In NY, for example, only one party in a conversation needs to know it's being recorded. Sep 18 04:36:30 geist, do you ever pretend to be a foreign national just for the experience ? Sep 18 04:36:46 hey, people pay good money for that Sep 18 04:37:03 jackie, i thought the opposite was true with NYS in that both parties have to know .. Sep 18 04:37:11 i knew it was a state jurisdiction Sep 18 04:37:22 definitely not Sep 18 04:37:24 geist, oh yeah? how much? Sep 18 04:37:44 i dunno, but there's a pretty thriving market up in the city, i bet Sep 18 04:38:08 I don't know about other states, though. Sep 18 04:39:28 jackie, from this page: http://www.pimall.com/nais/n.recordlaw.html Sep 18 04:39:36 "The Federal Communications Commission goes further into details on recording telephone conversations and states that the party recording must give verbal notification before the recording and that there must be a beep tone on the line to indicate that the line is being recorded." Sep 18 04:40:08 unless you're the NSA Sep 18 04:41:07 geist, sounds like we need to convince you to put in the anti-NSA driver into the modem code .. which negotiates a secure channel Sep 18 04:42:05 ameng: what version of DirectFB are you working with and how are you handling input from the keyboard? Sep 18 04:42:18 a special red pre which can be used for up to top secret #webos-internals conversatio Sep 18 04:42:19 s Sep 18 04:44:16 ha, destinal i htink has a 2hours 1 way trip Sep 18 04:44:25 maybe i am wrong Sep 18 04:44:47 that sounds terrible Sep 18 04:44:49 damn, my log was way up and that last comment was way out of context Sep 18 04:45:02 i can't imagine 4 hours of commuting Sep 18 04:45:04 per day Sep 18 04:47:17 yeah, thats crazy Sep 18 04:47:32 oil: go back to your mojo Sep 18 04:47:33 :D Sep 18 04:48:03 lol Sep 18 04:59:00 PuffTheMagic: i use the directfb-1.2.8. the key event is caught by the plugin and sent to dfb lib Sep 18 04:59:28 ameng: ahh Sep 18 05:00:50 PuffTheMagic: heh, only half that long -- 1 hr each way Sep 18 05:01:04 still bad Sep 18 05:02:16 I tend to listen to audiobooks, technical presentations, podcasts, etc, so at least the time isn't wasted Sep 18 05:02:48 that is good Sep 18 05:05:01 bpadalino: in one party consent states you can record covertly Sep 18 05:05:09 sneaky Sep 18 05:05:50 not too surprising that MA and CA have two party consent lawls Sep 18 05:05:57 s/awl/aw/ Sep 18 05:05:58 destinal meant: not too surprising that MA and CA have two party consent laws Sep 18 05:06:22 38/50 have good sense at least Sep 18 05:07:22 so what do you make of that FCC rule about verbal notification and the beep ? Sep 18 05:09:06 oil: I had to download stuff with the new preware, and so just played blocked for the first time. great work. unfortunately now I have something else to waste time playing :P Sep 18 05:09:20 thanks Sep 18 05:10:57 oil: I wish I knew javascript half so well.. so many things to learn... Sep 18 05:11:06 lol Sep 18 05:12:56 PuffTheMagic: good job on your site and all.. but your feed clutters my preware with too many categories! Sep 18 05:13:20 1 extra category? Sep 18 05:13:36 uh, I don't know, I have Luna and Libraries at least Sep 18 05:13:47 Oh... Sep 18 05:13:51 category not type Sep 18 05:13:53 yeah well Sep 18 05:14:00 types and categories are non-restricted Sep 18 05:14:02 however Sep 18 05:14:07 preware needs fixing Sep 18 05:14:28 cause right now it shows all categories in one view Sep 18 05:14:32 Also, Editors could be under Productivity Sep 18 05:14:36 no Sep 18 05:14:39 not at all Sep 18 05:14:52 ? Sep 18 05:14:53 the problem is that categories are a sub filter of type Sep 18 05:15:01 but preware shows all categores together Sep 18 05:15:05 and its mixing types Sep 18 05:15:13 and oil only has so much time Sep 18 05:15:16 Editors is a category of Linux Application Sep 18 05:15:24 Luna is a Category of Service Sep 18 05:15:51 Productivity is a Cagegory of Applications Sep 18 05:16:29 Ah, I get you Sep 18 05:16:46 dont forget Mojo Applications Sep 18 05:16:58 i feel sorry for that guy who put his app on your site Sep 18 05:17:04 unless people change that option they dont see it Sep 18 05:17:50 yes your prejudice app installer Sep 18 05:17:59 :D Sep 18 05:18:00 the categories were already set Sep 18 05:18:10 you just love being stubborn Sep 18 05:18:12 categories were never fixed Sep 18 05:18:17 they were in preware Sep 18 05:18:37 well the rest of the world was told they can use what ever they want Sep 18 05:20:37 Cool! Toppleball seems to prove that accelservice isn't really needed to get good responsiveness in practice from accelerometer Sep 18 05:21:10 destinal: the presketch program shows its pretty responsive Sep 18 05:32:03 precentral has an article about webos security -- I think they give it a pass far too easily (without really looking at it) Sep 18 05:33:02 destinal: tharris should do a follow-up article Sep 18 05:38:15 i wish toppleball had maze-style Sep 18 05:38:28 destinal: how so? (curious) Sep 18 05:39:47 freakout: it's impossible to say briefly.. I think palm is working on improving webos security significantly as time goes on, but I have concerns with where it's at now. Sep 18 05:40:08 and precentral just basically suggests that, oh, it's linux, it must be secure. Sep 18 05:40:18 yes, I did raise an eyebrow at that myself Sep 18 05:40:50 If you've got the time and inclination, PM me with your thoughts. Always helps to have background info on this stuff :) Sep 18 05:40:59 or if you've got any good links Sep 18 05:41:01 ... Sep 18 05:43:05 it's late, but I'd be glad to go into more detail when I have time. as a quick example, think of the impact of things like cross-site-scripting / HTML injection in a locally running web-technologies-based application framework (especially where XSS basically means code execution and talking to services, reconfiguring your device, reading your email, etc) Sep 18 05:43:30 there are unique concerns for this type of platform that don't exist on, say, the iphone. Sep 18 05:44:29 * destinal is a security geek. (can you tell?) :) Sep 18 05:45:30 * freakout had an inkling, destinal ;) Sep 18 05:46:45 And yes, with the amount of web browser vulnerabilities that pop up on every platform, I figured that something as heavily reliant on browser tech & languages as webOS would have its own unique security issues Sep 18 05:47:41 bbl Sep 18 05:47:47 hmagoo: so you want to turn Preware into a launcher ... Sep 18 05:48:55 freakout: the other thing worrisome in precentral's discussion of webos security is pointing out that open source magic means peer review means more secure code Sep 18 05:49:22 freakout: they're totally overlooking that luna and various other key pieces of webos are totally black box palm proprietary software Sep 18 05:50:09 I'm a lot more worried about framework, browser, GUI, service, vulnerabilities than I am about the kernel Sep 18 05:50:34 the former occur far more often in any operating system Sep 18 06:01:57 is it just me, or do all the apps released/updated today in the catalog list all the tags twice? Sep 18 06:08:08 * rwhitby bbl Sep 18 06:22:48 oil: not just you Sep 18 06:30:24 thats good Sep 18 06:31:13 * oil tries not to lol @ tip calc app with ads Sep 18 06:35:17 lol Sep 18 06:35:31 what on earth do you advertise in a tip calculator?! Sep 18 06:35:53 according to the reviews Sep 18 06:35:57 blackberry and verizion ads Sep 18 06:36:06 lol Sep 18 06:36:34 Who would find themselves at a restaurant, sorting out the bill, and think "Gee, now's the perfect time to check a website?" Sep 18 06:36:49 Your dining companions would slap you Sep 18 06:37:06 lol Sep 18 06:38:06 ...of course, such a person might not *have* dining companions Sep 18 06:38:17 xD Sep 18 07:51:19 anybody got a link to the old mytether Sep 18 13:05:36 what's the easiest way to test a javascript function that does a complex comparison of two complex strings? Sep 18 13:05:58 I basically want to call it giving it two strings, and see whether the result is true or false. Sep 18 13:06:09 and be able to single step through the function to debug any problems. Sep 18 13:09:56 rwhitby: I'd guess using firebug? Sorry, my typical "debugging" method is Mojo.Log.error... Sep 18 13:10:56 well, actually I just need a very simple framework in which to run this piece of code. Sep 18 13:11:57 so like, http://writecodeonline.com/javascript/ ? Sep 18 13:14:03 yeah, that'll do :-) Sep 18 13:16:28 I fail at javascript Sep 18 13:17:08 On my my icons is still "themed" even after uninstalling the theme and also installing the "uninstaller", is webos doctor the next step? Sep 18 13:17:40 if so, I'll just wait until 1.2... just curious Sep 18 13:17:57 I would have thought debugging why would be the next step ... Sep 18 13:18:01 One of my* Sep 18 13:18:12 drnull: can you take a look at something for me? Sep 18 13:18:29 aye Sep 18 13:18:36 http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=applications/preware.git;a=blob;f=version-compare.txt Sep 18 13:18:48 rwhitby, that would be the logical next step, I just don't have the time right now Sep 18 13:19:07 There is a C function at the top. I need a javascript function which does the same thing. I've made a start at the bottom, but don't know how to easily test it. Sep 18 13:19:29 looks like fun... give me a few minutes. :) Sep 18 13:20:02 This is to allow Preware to comprehend the complete complexity of ipkg version numbers which can look like 5.2.89+svn20090806-1.4.5~rc7 Sep 18 13:21:29 drnull: hopefully my comments in the code give enough info to follow what it's meant to do ... Sep 18 13:23:38 mrjcarter: here's the tip - there is a file in /var/usr/lib/ipkg/info/.list which lists all the files that the theme ipkg should have changed. when you install it, it moves each of those files to filename.bak if a filename.bak file does not exist already. when you uninstall it, to moves the filename.bak file back to filename. Sep 18 13:24:44 mrjcarter: determine which icon has been overwritten. see if it is in that file. see if a .bak file exists. re-install the theme, and make sure a .bak file is created for that icon, and make sure that .bak file is restored when the theme is removed. Sep 18 13:25:10 rwhitby, thanks :) Sep 18 13:30:30 * rwhitby think drnull has taken one look at his code and run away ;-) Sep 18 13:36:46 rwhitby: haha, no, it was two looks. Sep 18 13:38:20 morning Sep 18 13:38:30 whasshappenin Sep 18 13:39:35 rwhitby: I do, however, LOVE usage of l (L) as a iterator variable. ;) Sep 18 13:40:06 j, k, l, ... I'm not very creative ... Sep 18 13:40:31 aye, j,k, all good. p1[l] though.... depending on your editor, well... Sep 18 13:40:49 indeed. Sep 18 13:42:33 drnull: file updated Sep 18 13:44:04 so just to start off with a few things I noticed, is the test function (lines 129 and following) part of prototypejs? It didn't work in the online javascript runner. match did though. Also, line 132 p2 pattern has a leading slash Sep 18 13:44:50 I'm very excited today... going to go see Douglas Crockford speak here Sep 18 13:45:37 drnull: yeah, the test should be match() Sep 18 13:46:42 drnull: file updated Sep 18 13:47:19 FreeTim: ask him to fix my version comparison function :-) Sep 18 13:48:00 psshhhh, I know more javascript than he... er... wait. Sep 18 13:49:18 line 143: get rid of the ^ for those two tests, line 150, switch i2/i1 Sep 18 13:51:13 drnull: why swap i2/i1 ? Sep 18 13:52:36 compareVersion(1, 2), i1=1, i2=2, ... 2-1 = 1. if (1 > 0) return true else return false, logic is backwards Sep 18 13:53:56 function should return true if second arg is larger than first arg Sep 18 13:54:18 heh, I was reading it backwards Sep 18 13:55:08 rwhitby: Ok will do (although i have no idea what you are talking about.) Sep 18 13:55:22 ah, the return value logic of the C function is not actually what we want in the javascript. what we want for the javascript is in the comment at the top of the javascript Sep 18 13:55:31 FreeTim: I was joking. Sep 18 13:56:06 Is the example version you gave about as complex as it gets? I'm just throwing different variations of that at it and seeing what happens... Sep 18 13:56:44 Did he come up with the json standard? I can't find much about who wrote it on the site Sep 18 13:56:59 drnull: there's missing functionality in the innermost alpha loop Sep 18 13:57:05 right Sep 18 13:57:29 yeah, that version I gave is a fairly complex one Sep 18 13:57:59 a simple on is 1.0.0 vs 1.0.0a or 1.0.0-4 vs 1.0.0-6 Sep 18 13:58:29 1:2.4.3c-7 Sep 18 13:58:31 :D Sep 18 13:58:49 1:2.4.3c-rc8-7 Sep 18 13:59:00 that looks like fun Sep 18 13:59:47 89+svn20090806 things start to break with this part. Since the code assumes that things are a non-num followed by num (lines 110 & 111), we can't compare those two dates. Sep 18 14:00:31 wait... the code doesn't assume that, why is javascript interpreting the regex that way? Sep 18 14:00:33 oh yeah is + no - or _ for the pre/rc/svn/git/alpha stuff Sep 18 14:00:39 drnull: won't the * allow any ordering of numeric and non-numeric? Sep 18 14:01:45 drnull: my intent on lines 110 and 111 was to return an array of non-numeric and numeric substrings, no matter what order they appear in. Sep 18 14:02:42 understood, I misread the regex. However, what javascript is giving is an array with 2 elements. first, an alpha part, second whatever is left. Sep 18 14:03:00 all this code was completely untested, since I didn't have a good javascript testing environment. Sep 18 14:06:34 drnull: does a ? after each paren set help? Sep 18 14:07:27 I think the real problem is that "".match(/(...)(...)/) will only ever return an array of max 2 elements. Sep 18 14:07:46 what we need is a tokenizer that splits based on number/non-number boundaries. Sep 18 14:08:12 drnull: even with the /g on the end? Sep 18 14:09:11 drnull: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Global_Objects/String/match says /g will return all matches Sep 18 14:12:57 drnull: I'll take another look at it tomorrow - heading towards midnight here. thanks for your help! Sep 18 14:13:15 yep, I'll pastebin if I come up with anything else. Sep 18 14:13:56 * rwhitby bbt Sep 18 14:32:17 anyone know a mirror for saurik svn? I'd like to get the rooter but the svn is down Sep 18 14:53:36 rwhitby: so, what you had was fairly complete, looks like just the regex needed massaging some. I've highlighted lines I know I changed... might have missed some. http://webos.pastebin.com/m18820f7a Sep 18 14:54:52 those version numbers are just stupid... Sep 18 14:54:59 lol Sep 18 14:55:06 I threw some test cases in at the end, you'll definitely want to throw more at it, I'd imagine. Also, as I noted, "rc" handling seems a bit sketchy. Sep 18 14:57:08 hmm, quick correction http://webos.pastebin.com/m3d8370af Sep 18 14:57:34 So yeah, for rc stuff. Is "1.rc1" really newer than "1"? Sep 18 14:57:44 anyone know a mirror for saurik svn? I'd like to get the rooter but the svn is down Sep 18 15:01:17 drnull: NO Sep 18 15:01:23 1.rc1 is before 1 Sep 18 15:03:11 PuffTheMagic: I kinda figured as much. Sep 18 15:03:22 well you asked Sep 18 15:03:50 yes, thanks for the answer. I wasn't trying to be snarky. Sep 18 15:06:52 wsuppp Sep 18 15:07:50 whats new this morning Sep 18 15:11:52 who has the emulator setup and working? Sep 18 15:12:13 who doesn't? Sep 18 15:12:21 i dont Sep 18 15:12:28 why not? Sep 18 15:12:39 thats not the important issue right now Sep 18 15:12:43 how has emulator and ssh ? Sep 18 15:12:46 lol Sep 18 15:12:48 s/how/who/ Sep 18 15:12:48 PuffTheMagic meant: who has emulator and ssh ? Sep 18 15:13:02 i do Sep 18 15:13:11 but im leaving for work Sep 18 15:18:54 so about luna/dbus and the private bus and palm.com Sep 18 15:19:01 i think any app can be on the private bus Sep 18 15:19:07 but Sep 18 15:19:19 only apps with same reverse dns can talk to each other Sep 18 15:19:30 i dont think its palm specific Sep 18 15:20:02 so, the 3 pichunt games could talk to each other, for example? Sep 18 15:34:15 gkatsev: probably Sep 18 15:40:42 geist: Haiku beta release stuff slashdotted. That'll teach you to write an operating system and let it escape into the wild. never know where pieces of it will appear :) Sep 18 15:41:06 isnt it an alpha? Sep 18 15:41:33 err, yes, alpha. my mistake Sep 18 15:42:30 hey PuffTheMagic you up Sep 18 15:42:30 ? Sep 18 15:42:36 yeah Sep 18 15:42:36 and looks like the original slashdotting (that I missed) was Monday, but yet another article about it yesterday Sep 18 15:42:52 atlanta: i've made no progress on fceux Sep 18 15:42:59 oh thats fine lol Sep 18 15:43:07 idk why it works in debian chroot but not with the stuff i built from soruce Sep 18 15:43:08 i just coulding get the inputcfg to work right Sep 18 15:43:22 it works just not the mapping Sep 18 15:43:55 atlanta: right idk why Sep 18 15:43:56 BUT Sep 18 15:43:57 but do you know how to turn a image into binary in java Sep 18 15:43:57 ? Sep 18 15:44:06 atlanta: an image? Sep 18 15:44:08 why type of image Sep 18 15:44:16 yea like a jpg or png Sep 18 15:44:30 atlanta: it really seems pointless to spend any more time on fceux untill ameng gets his code out Sep 18 15:44:34 my idea was to make a twitpic app that does the native upload Sep 18 15:44:45 twitpic? Sep 18 15:45:04 twitpic.com Sep 18 15:45:16 allows you to upload pic then post to twitter Sep 18 15:45:18 atlanta: im still not following what you mean by turn an image into a binary... the image already is binary Sep 18 15:45:20 unless its svg Sep 18 15:45:38 well convert it into an binary output Sep 18 15:46:03 so basically heres the idea have the mojo allow you to select the image send the path of it to the service Sep 18 15:46:10 then the service will send back the binary data Sep 18 15:46:22 i still dont get what you mean Sep 18 15:46:26 then just send it to the twitpic api as a ajax request Sep 18 15:46:43 let me see if i can get you an example Sep 18 15:49:27 PuffTheMagic: http://twitpic.com/api.do Sep 18 15:49:30 theres the api Sep 18 15:50:44 basically when you call the api you have to send the post up as binary data which mojo doesn't support Sep 18 15:51:05 that gives no more detail Sep 18 15:51:20 maybe im saying it wrong Sep 18 15:51:20 lol Sep 18 15:51:24 idk what binary is referring to here, actual 1's and 0's Sep 18 15:51:32 or like a normal image file Sep 18 15:51:40 I was thinking about writing just such a service for flickr Sep 18 15:51:45 if you get it working, I'd love to steal it :) Sep 18 15:52:00 normal image file i believe Sep 18 15:52:27 atlanta: then just read the file like normal Sep 18 15:52:39 the serialize it Sep 18 15:52:44 s/the/then/ Sep 18 15:52:45 PuffTheMagic meant: then serialize it Sep 18 15:52:52 and include it in the form Sep 18 15:53:06 lala got any good java tut sites Sep 18 15:53:07 ? Sep 18 15:53:32 just google reading files Sep 18 15:53:36 ok Sep 18 15:53:43 FileReader FileWriter Sep 18 15:53:51 BufferedReader Sep 18 15:53:56 PrintWriter Sep 18 15:54:00 atlanta, lmorchard: have either of you intercepted a POST from an app that uses this API? Sep 18 15:54:00 ^^ good starts Sep 18 15:54:02 The fun part, at least for Flickr, is composing the multipart/form-data request Sep 18 15:54:03 * atlanta is off to learn io in java and then studing the servers Sep 18 15:54:18 just to get a real world example of a successful upload to start with? Sep 18 15:54:22 destinal_work: Yup Sep 18 15:54:22 destinal_work: nope but going to now ill report back Sep 18 15:54:35 I've written Flickr API clients in other languages too Sep 18 15:55:07 yea thing is just getting mojo to put it in the form it needs to be Sep 18 15:55:21 lmorchard: you're sure the posted file isn't encoded in any way by the client? Sep 18 15:55:23 You can either use an HTTP proxy to capture, or failing that, edit your /etc/hosts and run netcat to receive the request Sep 18 15:55:39 destinal_work: That's actually the problem. WebKit's XHR UTF-8 encodes all requests Sep 18 15:55:45 which garbles image binaries Sep 18 15:57:21 firefox is your friend Sep 18 15:57:29 yea it gobbles it to ÿØÿà Sep 18 15:57:33 Ah, yeah, twitpic's API is similar to flickr's, at least in the uploading Sep 18 15:57:38 which is pretty much the raw iamge Sep 18 15:57:45 not base64encoded or anything Sep 18 15:58:17 lmorchard: do you know how to code in java to make it output the raw form Sep 18 15:58:19 lmorchard: it wants it sent as multipart/form-data Sep 18 15:58:26 lmorchard: why use xmlhttprequest at all? Sep 18 15:58:27 destinal_work: yea Sep 18 15:58:40 destinal_work: How else would you do it programmatically? Sep 18 15:58:43 destinal_work: because thats the only thing mojo uses Sep 18 15:58:48 just populate a form in js and post it Sep 18 15:59:04 You can't programmatically change the file in input type="file" elements Sep 18 15:59:06 destinal_work: mojo doesnt have io capablities Sep 18 15:59:32 It's been a year or so since I last did serious Java work, but I could probably figure it out... might poke at it this weekend Sep 18 16:00:04 Also, I think Palm's disabled file uploads in forms for their version of webkit Sep 18 16:00:10 But I haven't tried it Sep 18 16:00:25 they did Sep 18 16:00:28 \brb lunch time Sep 18 16:01:02 There's a fun Palm forum thread going on it - http://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=550&start=10 Sep 18 16:01:09 and by fun I mean not Sep 18 16:03:57 wow: http://benfirshman.com/projects/jsnes/ Sep 18 16:04:03 I wonder if that could be ported to webOS Sep 18 16:04:13 NES emulator written in JavaScript. Sep 18 16:06:01 tlp: try it :P Sep 18 16:06:28 I bet it would be more rewarding to get a framebuffer working in a card and port a native vmu :) Sep 18 16:06:33 yeah Sep 18 16:06:35 s/vmu/emu/ Sep 18 16:06:35 lmorchard meant: I bet it would be more rewarding to get a framebuffer working in a card and port a native emu :) Sep 18 16:06:35 probably Sep 18 16:07:10 still, pretty cool Sep 18 16:08:55 I've seen an MSX and Spectrum emulator in JS too Sep 18 16:25:36 It requires Chrome to even play smoothly, so I'm guessing WebKit probably won't cut it. Sep 18 16:29:41 Well... oddly enough webOS relpaced webkit's JavaScriptCore with V8 from chrome Sep 18 16:34:45 ah Sep 18 16:46:32 lmorchard: anything useful in the thread Sep 18 16:46:32 ? Sep 18 16:46:39 Not really :/ Sep 18 16:46:47 Mostly more confirmation of the problem Sep 18 16:48:38 gotcha Sep 18 16:48:54 yea i know if you base64 it probably will work but the sites dont want them that way Sep 18 16:49:09 would have to make a server side script to middle man it but more work than needed Sep 18 17:01:42 lmorchard: did doing file:/// allow you to read the file Sep 18 17:01:42 ? Sep 18 17:09:52 rwhitby: just pointing the launcher thing out, heh. Sep 18 17:21:27 atlanta: Oh, yeah, file: URLs read fine Sep 18 17:22:45 rwhitby: it does.. launch. ;) Sep 18 17:25:08 cool cool i guess ill just make a base64 work around for now Sep 18 17:33:34 anyone here been able to get the sdk to install on a 64bit linux system? Sep 18 17:45:19 jcrawford: yeah Sep 18 17:45:41 jcrawford: you just have to have the proper 32-bit libraries to support running the 32-bit binaries Sep 18 17:45:58 thats what i said. :) Sep 18 17:46:10 yea i found the page explaining how but the rpmbuild command keeps saying this Sep 18 17:46:10 rpmbuild -tb alien_8.78.tar.gz Sep 18 17:46:17 in debian you just apt-get install ia32-libs Sep 18 17:46:17 error: File /home/jcrawford/Download/alien_8.77.tar.gz: No such file or directory Sep 18 17:46:25 yea i am on fedora 11 Sep 18 17:46:27 :D Sep 18 17:47:09 jcrawford: maybe here http://www.metztli-it.com/blog/blog12.php/2009/05/09/providing-32-bit-application-support-und Sep 18 17:47:47 http://paste2.org/p/429119 Sep 18 17:47:50 that shows the file exists Sep 18 17:47:57 reading Sep 18 17:48:55 lmorchard: not odd that they use v8, it's done for a major performance boost Sep 18 17:49:37 tlp: I'm not sure that an NES emulator written in javascript would run fast enough on a mobile cpu Sep 18 17:49:41 Oh, just odd in that they ripped out the normal JS core and used that. Or course chrome does that too, so maybe not so unprecedented Sep 18 17:49:58 destinal_work: probably not. I like the directfb plugin idea better; any news about that? Sep 18 17:51:41 tlp: ameng's working on it Sep 18 17:51:58 for the browser plugin to talk to directfb and the directfb system module to talk to the plugin Sep 18 17:52:13 is there a git repository or anything for it? Sep 18 17:52:26 hah the issue was that alien had the wrong version in the spec file or something Sep 18 17:52:29 tlp: I don't think he's released his code yet Sep 18 17:52:37 (or binary or anything) Sep 18 17:52:38 because the file version is 8.78 but the error says it cannot find 8.77' Sep 18 17:52:46 so i renamed the file to 8.77 and it worked fine' Sep 18 17:53:10 jcrawford: so you're using alien to install ia32-libs then? Sep 18 17:53:23 guess so Sep 18 17:53:27 reading the wiki how to now Sep 18 18:02:35 OMG you have got to be kidding me Sep 18 18:02:40 this walk-through does not work :( Sep 18 18:02:56 simply because the novacom package palm offers is missing required files Sep 18 18:03:06 there is no /opt directory when extracted Sep 18 18:05:43 Does it require optware to be setup? Sep 18 18:09:37 nope Sep 18 18:09:39 ok i figured it out Sep 18 18:09:43 now about legalities Sep 18 18:10:06 can you not point to a palm file directly? I ask because the version of novacom on palms download site will not work with that walk-through Sep 18 18:10:13 however another site hosts the proper version that will work Sep 18 18:10:23 http://www.codemonkies.net/linux/index.php/2009/07/30/debian-palm-novacom-package/ Sep 18 18:10:34 they link to the file that will work, so should I add notes to that page about this or not? Sep 18 18:10:40 jcrawford: there's another URL Sep 18 18:10:49 on palm's site Sep 18 18:10:50 destinal_work, where? Sep 18 18:11:12 the wiki page directs you to this page http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1585 Sep 18 18:11:21 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Installing_novaterm_on_ubuntu_64-bit Sep 18 18:11:28 and the novacom linked there is not the proper one Sep 18 18:11:51 get 0.3 -- the link is on the wiki page I just sent Sep 18 18:13:41 yea i just changed the link on the wiki page to point to that wiki page Sep 18 18:13:54 so at-least people trying to build will get the proper version file :) Sep 18 18:14:02 all is working great on fedora 64 now :D Sep 18 18:15:09 jcrawford: excellent Sep 18 18:18:31 however still one thing Sep 18 18:18:45 i do not see the novacomd service in my services panel, hopefully it will restart on it's own Sep 18 18:18:49 going to reboot and test brb Sep 18 18:19:56 wooo tethering :-p Sep 18 18:19:59 i mean.... Sep 18 18:20:00 shhh Sep 18 18:24:32 sportman: just be careful they hold the right to cut your service at any time. hehe. :) Sep 18 18:25:24 if you dont use it too much and you do basically what you do on your phone anyway, they are very unlikely to notice Sep 18 18:25:53 Of course, but some people go overboard hehe. Sep 18 18:27:10 yea Sep 18 18:27:13 im not like watching netflix Sep 18 18:27:14 or anything Sep 18 18:27:17 just irc Sep 18 18:27:37 basically i need to just email a client, i could do it on my phone Sep 18 18:27:41 but i wanna check other shit too Sep 18 18:28:01 * sportman has automated processes in palce, always like to check on them when orders go through Sep 18 18:28:35 i wish the myteather had a wep setting though Sep 18 18:28:41 im worried ppl will just piggyback onto it.. Sep 18 18:28:55 i dont see anyone else on the boat with a laptop out though, so hopefully im fine... Sep 18 18:29:15 * Templarian facepalms Sep 18 18:29:30 sportman: use bluetooth Sep 18 18:29:43 does my teather use bluetooth? Sep 18 18:29:45 im using myteather 1.5 Sep 18 18:30:20 Flick the little bluetooth option in the settings panel. Sep 18 18:31:03 ok i tunred pre bluetooth on Sep 18 18:31:04 next? Sep 18 18:31:05 :-[p Sep 18 18:31:07 :-p Sep 18 18:32:29 you pair it with your compute. nebula had a script for doing ipforwarding but its not online anymore Sep 18 18:33:22 ahhh Sep 18 18:33:23 ok Sep 18 18:33:29 so this would be without the mytether app Sep 18 18:33:29 cool Sep 18 18:33:38 ill brb Sep 18 18:33:41 cant mytether do bluetooth tethering as well? Sep 18 18:33:50 perhaps 2.xx can Sep 18 18:36:57 destinal_work, fyi that walkthrough worked perfect even after a reboot aside from that link change :) Sep 18 18:37:28 gkatsev, i beg to differ, check the webosboston.com site it's posted there just not telling exactly what it is :) Sep 18 18:37:32 jcrawford: which walkthrough, is there one for fedora specifically? Sep 18 18:37:42 destinal_work, yes there is Sep 18 18:37:45 jcrawford: ok, i mustve missed it... i was looking for it Sep 18 18:37:58 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/MojoSDK_on_Fedora_11 Sep 18 18:38:47 oh he must have pulled it from the site Sep 18 18:38:48 crap Sep 18 18:39:28 yep someone deleted that post :( Sep 18 18:40:35 jcrawford: what I don't get is .. can't alien make an rpm instead of tgz? Sep 18 18:40:55 alien always left a bad taste in my mouth Sep 18 18:40:58 the deb file is just an ar'd tgz anyway, you don't need alian Sep 18 18:41:01 But that might be unfair, I really dislike rpm Sep 18 18:41:01 alien Sep 18 18:41:06 destinal, not sure, I used it as the walk-through said to :) Sep 18 18:41:11 rpmbuild Sep 18 18:41:35 destinal_work, i didn't write the walk-through :) maybe you should go through and revamp it haha Sep 18 18:42:00 hmm are themes new? dont remember those listed on preware before Sep 18 18:42:27 you should be able to ar -x the .deb, and then cd /; tar xvzf it Sep 18 18:42:29 much simpler Sep 18 18:42:44 can_: yea they are Sep 18 18:43:28 jcrawford: how'd you get the 32 bit libraries to support novacomd ? Sep 18 18:43:48 just installed Sep 18 18:43:49 how do i switch to an existing theme? Sep 18 18:43:52 seemed to work fine Sep 18 18:44:01 oh, so they must already have been there Sep 18 18:44:37 well i had to install the 32bit libusb Sep 18 18:44:38 yum install libusb.i586 Sep 18 18:44:52 oh, right, that's in the walkthrough already Sep 18 18:44:53 ok Sep 18 18:44:56 yep Sep 18 18:45:14 I installed 2 themes and I want to go back to the first one i installed, but it is no longer in the preware list. its in the 'existing apps' list on preware, but it will only let me remove it. Sep 18 18:47:13 so yea... Sep 18 18:47:15 i dont have mytether 2 Sep 18 18:47:17 and i paired my bluetooth device for shits and giggles Sep 18 18:47:21 and it auto tethered with my mac Sep 18 18:47:24 for about 2 minutes Sep 18 18:47:34 then an error message on my phone said my service provir doesnt allow teathering Sep 18 18:47:34 l Sep 18 18:47:34 ol Sep 18 18:47:57 can_: you are supposed to remove themes before installing a new one Sep 18 18:48:07 http://www.prethemer.com/help Sep 18 18:48:22 ahh Sep 18 18:48:33 i guess preware doesn't know better (yet).. ;) Sep 18 18:48:57 haha yeah Sep 18 18:58:47 so here is a question i have been muilling over in my head Sep 18 18:59:03 sprint is rolling out their whole wimax deal Sep 18 18:59:12 wimax is supposed to be 802.11 right? Sep 18 19:00:27 so would wifi capable phones eventually support wimax? Sep 18 19:01:12 I don't think it is 802.11 Sep 18 19:02:06 lol Sep 18 19:02:09 darm Sep 18 19:02:14 wimax is a celluar phone signal Sep 18 19:02:20 ah my mistake Sep 18 19:02:29 im hungry Sep 18 19:02:43 i think sprint might go LTE anyways Sep 18 19:02:54 as of now they are supposed to go wimax Sep 18 19:02:58 all the other companies are going LTE Sep 18 19:03:07 VZW is going LTE I don't know about Sprint Sep 18 19:03:15 Sprint bought clearwire Sep 18 19:03:30 anyone know if you can still slide out the keyboard with this case on? : http://store.precentral.net/seidio-innocase-surface/4A123A5675.htm Sep 18 19:05:48 dam computer battery Sep 18 19:05:50 is gonna die soon Sep 18 19:05:50 :/ Sep 18 19:14:34 anyone know of a pre app for identi.ca? Sep 18 19:14:43 (the open source twitter) Sep 18 19:15:12 so what's new and exciting today Sep 18 19:15:43 back in a jiff Sep 18 19:15:47 gotta find a power outlet Sep 18 19:56:28 Mousey: Spaz is both a Twitter and identi.ca / laconi.ca client I think` Sep 18 19:56:50 cal@castle:/media/internal/wallpapers$ sudo chmod 777 tux.jpg Sep 18 19:56:50 cal@castle:/media/internal/wallpapers$ ls -l tux.jpg Sep 18 19:56:50 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Sep 18 15:51 tux.jpg Sep 18 19:57:08 that makes no sense.. Sep 18 20:03:03 destinal_work: I looked at how the termplugin handle key event, I want to use that schema for directfb keymap, any ideas? Sep 18 20:04:09 ameng|home: I'm not familiar with directfb's keymap Sep 18 20:05:05 ameng|home: me and Zuchmir have played with termplugin Sep 18 20:05:13 ameng|home: so feel free to ping us with questions too Sep 18 20:05:28 ameng|home: i am very much interested in the things you are doing Sep 18 20:05:44 try 077? Sep 18 20:06:05 s/077/0777/ Sep 18 20:06:07 AnOutsider__ meant: try 0777? Sep 18 20:06:50 PuffTheMagic: I am pleased if you can help Sep 18 20:07:01 ameng|home: is it a matter of translating key input from luna's key codes to directfb's? Sep 18 20:07:17 thats what i would imagine Sep 18 20:07:53 yes, I want to map as many as keys that dfb can support Sep 18 20:08:30 ameng|home: I was thinking, better than using keys for mouse buttons might be the gesture area Sep 18 20:08:57 destinal_work: is the gesture area split into left and right? Sep 18 20:09:04 or is it just one tap area Sep 18 20:09:29 PuffTheMagic: you can supposedly read coordinates on it but primarily acts like a key Sep 18 20:09:48 destinal_work: well if we can read coords then that would be perfect Sep 18 20:09:51 left middle right Sep 18 20:09:54 tap it and it sends a key event, release and another Sep 18 20:09:55 the button could be middle :D Sep 18 20:10:28 but I remember rick_home saying that you can read coordinates on it, only downside is I seem to remember saying it didn't start reporting them unless you dragged from above the gesture area down onto it Sep 18 20:10:33 destinal_work: I now use keys for mouse buttons only on emulator , but pre has a touch screen :) Sep 18 20:11:56 lmorchard: thanks Sep 18 20:12:14 ameng|home: sure but what extra data do you get from the touchscreen that is useful for mouse buttons that you can't use on the emulator? Sep 18 20:12:19 the gesture area, perhaps.. Sep 18 20:12:40 cool Sep 18 20:13:06 multitouch, maybe, but I haven't really tried that much with it really Sep 18 20:13:26 maybe you could right click by holding down and tapping somewhere else Sep 18 20:14:08 I think luna doesn't really pass that much there unfortunately Sep 18 20:14:16 tap on the screen -> left mouse button. what about the middle and right? Sep 18 20:14:45 ameng|home: get the coords from the gesture area Sep 18 20:15:05 PuffTheMagic: again, if it works without dragging onto it each time Sep 18 20:15:12 destinal_work: oh yeah Sep 18 20:15:22 destinal_work: i forgot they are more like vectors Sep 18 20:15:29 destinal_work: i cant beleive that though Sep 18 20:15:34 there has to be a way to get abs pos Sep 18 20:15:41 for a tap Sep 18 20:16:14 well the thing is, I think the starting x,y matters for whether a tap or drag is reported Sep 18 20:16:29 by luna Sep 18 20:17:59 Quick Question: Anyone know the luna-send cmd to reboot the phone? Sep 18 20:18:26 the key and mouse mapping should be well defined Sep 18 20:19:03 zinge: is it "reboot" like in linux? Sep 18 20:19:34 PuffTheMagic: its great if you can look at the dfb input code and help Sep 18 20:20:28 (guess not, it's probably in the wiki somewhere) Sep 18 20:20:43 ameng|home: i would have to understand a little big more about how the mojo/browser plugin interacts with your directfb module Sep 18 20:21:05 ameng|home: i am assuming you have a way of relaying events from the plugin to directfb... Sep 18 20:21:22 ok, I'll answer your questions Sep 18 20:22:21 when the plugin get a input event it writes it into a fifo, and dfb lib listen on that fifo Sep 18 20:24:20 PuffTheMagic: did you get the code? Sep 18 20:25:11 ameng|home: ok so we just need to make a function to translate the mojo keycodes into dfb keycodes Sep 18 20:26:03 now the keycodes is not from mojo , it is from plugin Sep 18 20:26:55 from NPP_HandleEvent Sep 18 20:29:05 ameng|home: yeah, but the plugin gets those directly from mojo Sep 18 20:29:11 it is weird that NPP_HandleEvent can not get pen up (down) event , so now I get these events from mojo (npruntime) Sep 18 20:30:39 Sorry to ask this twice, but java crapped out on me. Can anyone point me to a luna-send cmd that will reboot the phone? thanks. Sep 18 20:31:59 PuffTheMagic: I mean on the emulator, I do not test that on pre Sep 18 20:32:34 zinge: just restar the phone? Sep 18 20:32:49 ameng|home: no i never cloned the repo with your code, i was told i had access but i dont i was told where it was Sep 18 20:33:16 Yeah, just restart the phone. Sep 18 20:34:34 zinge: I mean why can't you just restart the phone why do you need the luna-send command hehe. Sep 18 20:35:05 Templarian: That's what I asked them. :-) There are a couple people who want me to make a "toggle app" that reboots the phone. Sep 18 20:35:23 Templarian: I told them you can just hit orange sym r, but I think they want the launcher button anyway Sep 18 20:35:33 Doh! Sep 18 20:35:44 Nevermind. I forgot that device manager can do it. I'll look there. Sep 18 20:35:46 Thanks. Sep 18 20:36:08 Device Info* Sep 18 20:36:48 Oh. Lazy people. lol. Sep 18 20:36:56 Templarian: yup. Sep 18 20:38:54 While I'm in here... would you happen to have any idea why the center button lights up if you send a "brightness: -1" to the display and turn it off? Sep 18 20:39:02 It seems like an odd side effect... Sep 18 20:44:06 ameng|home: did you checkout keyman.cpp from termplugin? Sep 18 20:44:58 PuffTheMagic: yeah , I think I can reuse it Sep 18 20:45:50 but all the stuff should be well defined , cause seemed the termplugin has little to do with mouse Sep 18 20:46:26 ameng|home: yeah it doesnt involve the mouse at all Sep 18 20:46:39 ameng|home: i havent really thought about mouse stuff Sep 18 20:46:45 havent had a need up uptil now Sep 18 20:52:55 PuffTheMagic: for directfb side input handling you can look at systems/pbp/pbpinput.c Sep 18 20:53:52 ameng|home: i was gonna ask you... when you create modules for directfb like phpinput.c..... do you have to touch any of the other directfb code... or is that module self contained Sep 18 20:54:13 ameng|home: what im getting as is, can you build this module for directfb 1.1.0, and then just drop it onto the Pre userland? Sep 18 20:54:24 or would the whole libdirectfb.so need to be rebuild Sep 18 20:54:41 no need, it's self contained Sep 18 20:54:53 it's a .so Sep 18 20:55:09 directfb load it at startup Sep 18 20:56:43 driver_open_device is the entrypoint called by directfb first Sep 18 20:56:58 ok cool Sep 18 20:57:37 directfb is wonderfully designed Sep 18 20:57:38 ameng|home: well the directfb on the Pre has a special hidd input module... it would need to be reverse engineered, but maybe using that for input would be easier Sep 18 21:00:33 yeah, but I think that is from the app exclusively own the screen, but if there are many card, we need get events from plugin Sep 18 21:00:44 that is for Sep 18 21:04:35 ameng|home: I think hidd has no requirements on exclusive access, but it will register keys even when not focused, so plugin may be cleaner Sep 18 21:04:39 dfb talk; exciting :) Sep 18 21:06:47 yeah, because there is only one active card at one time Sep 18 21:07:21 imm back Sep 18 21:07:45 but reversing need more time, how do you think? Sep 18 21:08:57 on a side note Sep 18 21:09:05 libipkg.so <== SUCKS! Sep 18 21:12:29 destinal_work: how about your hacking on hidd? Sep 18 21:13:44 ameng|home: haven't really done much lately, sadly Sep 18 21:14:04 * destinal_work wishes he had more time Sep 18 21:14:14 ;-) Sep 18 21:27:30 destinal_work: PuffTheMagic: have to go to bed , it is too late in my TZ. you have more experience with input on webos than me , if you can figure out the stuff for key, mouse and whatever else , it is really great for the project Sep 18 21:28:26 good night ,all Sep 18 22:06:55 Are any of you guys able to use Ampache Mobile over EVDO successfully? Sep 18 22:24:37 drnull: actually, according to ipkg, "1.rc1" is a larger version than "1" because the latter has fewer sections delimited by [.-] than the former. Sep 18 22:27:55 hmagoo: yeah, the launcher thing is an interesting idea Sep 18 22:31:14 rwhitby: barely anyone has touched on that functionality Sep 18 22:31:48 AHS was still unaware of user-installed apps, last thing I knew Sep 18 22:36:11 hmagoo: homebrew apps should be indistinguishable from app catalog apps once installed on the device Sep 18 22:37:00 AHS wasn't even reading, just guessing AFAIK. but that is moot Sep 18 22:38:06 tlp: yeah. Sep 18 22:38:18 even with a 368kbps upload Sep 18 22:38:24 (from my home server) Sep 18 22:40:31 well, I guess that is enough.. Sep 18 22:41:24 drnull: the requirement that non-alphanumerics or any kind sort greater than alphanumerics is the reason why we can't just do a simple string compare in that version checking code Sep 18 22:41:56 drnull: nice work on the regexp though - great idea. Sep 18 22:42:12 * rwhitby is referring to http://webos.pastebin.com/m3d8370af Sep 18 22:42:36 drnull: the check for both == needs to stay, otherwise you get a false true Sep 18 22:55:51 err, I hope WebOS updates do not "install" apps so that they "will not install because of too many apps".. can't phrase today Sep 18 23:05:21 rwhitby: launcher functionality? Sep 18 23:05:58 destinal_work: hmagoo is suggesting that since Preware already has all the applications he has installed neatly grouped into categories - it could almost be a replacement launcher. Sep 18 23:09:10 hmagoo: OTA updates use a completely different mechanism Sep 18 23:11:40 rwhitby: ah, I see Sep 18 23:12:21 I don't think it's an ideal launcher though Sep 18 23:12:36 I agree :-) Sep 18 23:12:54 and we won't be putting launcher "bling" in preware Sep 18 23:13:14 one could be made rather similarly, even based on the same code, but it would be best if it can read the appinfo.json information Sep 18 23:13:47 and maybe ipkg info I suppose Sep 18 23:14:34 a total launcher replacement wouldn't be hard actually Sep 18 23:15:26 That could be a cool launcher if it was all recoded and integrated nicely. Sep 18 23:15:27 and program groups would be nice.. hmm.. -- never mind me, just thinking out loud Sep 18 23:15:55 So I think Palm charging developers to upload to the app catalog is a good thing - it means that freeware apps will remain in homebrew. Sep 18 23:15:59 can you make restarting luna optional in preware? Sep 18 23:16:21 egaudet: oh, you mean an "No" next to the OK button? Sep 18 23:16:29 yea Sep 18 23:16:29 (imagine if Preware were modded into the front screen through a patch since it's empty, overkill but cool) Sep 18 23:16:30 rwhitby: $5 / year isn't that bad, but $99 is insane if you're giving away free apps Sep 18 23:16:36 or do you mean the author removes the Flag from the metadata? Sep 18 23:16:42 a NO next to ok Sep 18 23:16:45 or "later" Sep 18 23:17:05 could look into throwing something in the bottom dash signalling a luna restart is needed Sep 18 23:17:26 I got around it by closing preware Sep 18 23:17:52 egaudet: what's the scenario where you don't want to restart luna for something that needs it to operate correctly? Sep 18 23:18:10 I wanted to remove the keyboard and then install it Sep 18 23:18:11 (i.e. is it a developer-only scenario?) Sep 18 23:18:16 but I didn't want to restart luna after removing Sep 18 23:18:31 or what if I wanted to install 10 independent apps, and then restart luna after Sep 18 23:18:35 not restart luna 10 times Sep 18 23:18:53 sure Sep 18 23:19:27 that's the exact secondary reason why we moved to flags - for when you update apps and their dependencies (not working yet, but before 1.0.0) Sep 18 23:34:21 well I was talking about independent apps not dependencies Sep 18 23:38:00 egaudet: yep, I agree we need that. Sep 18 23:43:02 re the $99 -- Palm is profoundly committed to avoiding apple's race to the bottom on app prices. Sep 18 23:43:26 Selling 99 cent apps when there's an up front charge of $99 is a little scarey. Sep 18 23:43:47 Palm is hoping to get paid apps to stay in the same range they were on the palm-os Sep 18 23:50:14 rick_home: I suspect that avoidance of the race to the bottom is part of the reason Palm is supporting free homebrew :-) Sep 18 23:52:41 And because we are taking care of a lot of the bug filtering. Sep 18 23:52:56 It's like a huge test base for apps. Sep 18 23:58:20 nodnod Sep 18 23:58:28 although, nothing prevents stupid. Sep 18 23:58:48 I have one one-star review for reversi with the crypitc comment "I don't know how to play this game." Sep 18 23:59:11 rick_home: I know selling software isn't exactly a *true* market, once a product is developed, there's no scarcity, and each copyright holder has an artificial monopoly on reproduction of those bits, so supply and demand are different, but apps are worth what the market will bear. Sep 18 23:59:20 the new clickthrough terms for the app catalog tho clearly indicate that palm EXPECTS there to be alternate distribution channels. Sep 18 23:59:41 destinal apps are worth what the market will bear Sep 19 00:00:01 but in the case of the apple app store, developers didn't bother to try to TEST what the market will bear. Sep 19 00:00:37 rick_home: well, the heavier the competition, the lower the prices will get. that's normal. Sep 19 00:00:40 They made a terrible strategic mistake in thinking that the market was PURELY price based, and so a price war _quickly_ drove prices on everything to the bottom Sep 19 00:00:52 destinal that's not what happend on the apple app store Sep 19 00:01:20 I thought there was a glut of apps from the gold rush mentality among developers Sep 19 00:01:21 people introducing NEW categories of apps where, and are, forced to price at silly low prices BECAUSE an expectation has arisen that apple apps are cheap. Sep 19 00:01:39 There was destinal_work but that isn't why the prices crashed. Sep 19 00:01:56 Finally Sep 19 00:02:07 if you look at the history of the pricing in the app store... it's really very interesting. Sep 19 00:02:09 got my access to webos-internals.org back Sep 19 00:02:10 -.- Sep 19 00:02:40 It's _also_ interesting that there are still a FEW categories of app where the price is rational. Sep 19 00:02:46 rick_home: this is one of the dangers of a central exclusive store, you get a monoculture and expectations like that Sep 19 00:02:50 rick_home - new terms say anything about other paid stores though, or does it still say they need "written agreement" from palm? Sep 19 00:03:27 the new app doesn't speak to the subject. It does say that you need agreement from palm to offer a "substantially similar" app through ANY other channel of distribution. Sep 19 00:03:27 especially if apps are viewed as commodoties as opposed to unique art Sep 19 00:03:55 rick_home: there's new language? Sep 19 00:04:43 destinal_work: yes, there is new language. Sep 19 00:04:48 rick_home: sigh. I was hoping they'd strike the exclusivity entirely. Sep 19 00:05:01 it will go live when the new submission process goes live on 9/28 Sep 19 00:05:31 destinal_work: there was for all practical purposes no chance of that. Sep 19 00:05:41 it's arbitrary and controlling and unless they want a reputation as suing their developers, they won't be able to enforce it anyway Sep 19 00:06:05 they can jerk an app. Sep 19 00:06:21 and their distribution channel is ubiquitous -- while all others are smaller game fields Sep 19 00:06:28 so that's a very real threat Sep 19 00:06:37 destinal_work: me too Sep 19 00:06:51 (hoping they'd lose the exclusivity) Sep 19 00:06:58 rick_home: so still incompatible with open source then Sep 19 00:07:08 6K downloads for reversi. 12K downloads for dot game. Sep 19 00:07:15 destinal_work: it isn't open source. Sep 19 00:07:21 It's paid commercial software. Sep 19 00:07:31 rick_home: the two are not exclusive Sep 19 00:07:32 being distributed at retail. Sep 19 00:07:50 destinal_work: at some -distinct- level in fact, they are. Sep 19 00:08:25 rick_home: I disagree -- in fact a central market makes it even more likely you can sell software and allow open distribution of it and its source code at the same time Sep 19 00:08:54 and it has to do with a massive division in the understanding of the nature of intellectual property. Sep 19 00:09:12 rick_home: not sure I follow that last Sep 19 00:09:19 oh dear god. destinal_work -- this has nothing what so ever to do with the distribution of source code. Sep 19 00:09:39 rick_home: I mean the agreement prohibits distributing an app another way. Sep 19 00:09:54 mojo apps -inherently- distribute their source code. Sep 19 00:09:55 say what you want about them looking the other way for homebrew, that's not a legal agreement Sep 19 00:10:34 rick_home: proprietary vs open source has nothing to do with viewing code but everything to do with rights and freedoms Sep 19 00:10:47 let's say "free software" if it makes it clearer Sep 19 00:10:52 destinal_work: it isn't, for several reasons not the same thing as a legal agreement. and that takes us back to the nature of contracts, and an understanding of contracts, and your vision of the nature of intellectual property. Sep 19 00:11:03 nope that doesn't help Sep 19 00:11:14 since there's free as in beer and free as in freedom Sep 19 00:11:42 eh, "software with freedom" Sep 19 00:11:58 the point is it's not about source Sep 19 00:12:02 destinal_work: let me try a pair of questions.... Sep 19 00:12:12 and you CAN sell OSS Sep 19 00:12:20 yes of course you can Sep 19 00:12:25 no disagreement. Sep 19 00:12:33 I said it isn't about that. Sep 19 00:12:33 My objection is that palm's agreement prohibits that Sep 19 00:12:38 let me ask you a question.... Sep 19 00:12:48 who holds the copyright for WINE? Sep 19 00:12:56 rick_home: many people. why? Sep 19 00:13:03 Right. Sep 19 00:13:05 Many people. Sep 19 00:13:36 and the people who contributed the code, did not license the WINE repository folks to negotiate FOR them to ever effect a change in license terms for any reason Sep 19 00:14:09 so, the license for WINE is locked in adamentine -- in unobtanium -- that license is inviolate because you could never contact all the contributors. Sep 19 00:14:20 right, every contributer in effect licenses everyone else's code under that license Sep 19 00:14:33 there's no term in the submission license for any process of modification. No polling, no quorum, nothing. Sep 19 00:14:46 Right. Sep 19 00:14:46 well, same for linux, right? Sep 19 00:14:50 Right. Sep 19 00:14:53 exactly. Sep 19 00:14:58 fine. Sep 19 00:15:00 Now. Sep 19 00:15:16 I have approximately 25 years of work by me and John K in Graphic Activity Tracker. Sep 19 00:15:31 call it 6000 hours. Sep 19 00:16:06 there have been exactly three developers in those 25 years, and one of them a) is dead and b) signed a work-for-hire agreement. Sep 19 00:16:17 Who owns the copyright for GAT? Sep 19 00:16:27 ah. the two of you do Sep 19 00:16:40 and if we decide to change the way it's licensed? Sep 19 00:16:48 If we decide to change the way it's sold? Sep 19 00:16:59 license it however you like to whomever you like Sep 19 00:17:13 (BTW, actually, _I_ do, since John also signed a work-for-hire agreemnt) Sep 19 00:17:19 ah, ok Sep 19 00:17:20 but I wouldn't screw him like that. Sep 19 00:17:36 so, I provide my source code to my customers. Sep 19 00:17:40 100% of them Sep 19 00:17:47 I license them to use that source Sep 19 00:17:50 to modify it Sep 19 00:17:55 but not to redistribute it Sep 19 00:17:59 to do pretty much anything they want with it except redistribute. Sep 19 00:18:02 _and_ Sep 19 00:18:36 if they want to submit modifications back into the main stream code base, they have to sign away their rights to that code change. I do -not- dilute the copyright of my code. Sep 19 00:18:49 Why do you think I am so hard nosed about that? Sep 19 00:19:15 knowing that I am not anti-open-source and that I am not anti source-code and I am not anti open licensing? Sep 19 00:19:21 well, holding copyright is controlling terms, since copyright is the legal basis for that control Sep 19 00:19:35 that's one part. but the smaller part. Sep 19 00:19:40 even if someone grants you a perpetual license, you could never relicense it Sep 19 00:19:57 nodnod. true but still not the heart of the matter. Sep 19 00:20:33 hmm.. not really sure, then Sep 19 00:20:45 the problem is profound, and it is something that the open source people -- do not speak to -- Sep 19 00:20:59 you have, I presume read the Cathedral and the Bazzar ???? Sep 19 00:21:04 nods Sep 19 00:21:07 ok Sep 19 00:21:20 the author of that presumes two things that are not true in the real world. Sep 19 00:21:43 He presumes that in the case of the bazzare that the market is transparent. That is, that you can TELL which offering is better than another offering. Sep 19 00:21:57 he presumes that the better solution "floats to the top" Sep 19 00:22:09 this -only- works in small markets. Sep 19 00:22:34 last year, 25,000 UNIQUE fiction books were published in the US. Sep 19 00:23:16 so if a better product exists but people aren't aware of it, it loses Sep 19 00:23:22 how to tell which ones were any good? Which ones were "best" -- the market is utterly opaque. Buyers for big chains like walmart and costco have MASSIVE influence on purchasing and on public percenption because the market is so OPAQUE Sep 19 00:23:34 exactly Sep 19 00:23:38 or if it's not distributed to those who might buy it Sep 19 00:23:41 Better products fail all the time Sep 19 00:24:03 Ubuntu is CLEARLY a better desktop than Vista. Clearly Sep 19 00:24:30 but the market is utterly opaque -- the vast majority of people have no idea how to GET linux, and how to install it and how to use it. Sep 19 00:24:33 it's hopeless. Sep 19 00:24:46 rick_home: that's very complex, but it's comparable and $0 Sep 19 00:25:14 Liinux -can not- win. Walmart's and the EEE PC experiment with shipping boxes with Linux on them proved this Sep 19 00:25:22 with certain kinds of software there's a lock-in concept that applies though so that's a bit different than with books Sep 19 00:25:24 over 80% of those boxes were reformatted with XP. Sep 19 00:25:58 Now, back to webOS, and Palm's position in this discussion. Sep 19 00:26:04 rick_home: its not hopeless, ubuntu has done a great deal in a short period of time Sep 19 00:26:39 PuffTheMagic: belive what you will, I'm explaining my understanding. I know the numbers. I have formed conclusions based on those. You have different beliefs I accept that. Sep 19 00:26:54 lol Sep 19 00:26:58 so, let's consider PALMs position in this discussion. Sep 19 00:27:01 PuffTheMagic: there's a nonzero switching cost though, the cost of staying with windows only has to be lower than the perceived cost of switching including learning new tools and converting anything that can't work out of the box, etc Sep 19 00:27:22 let's not get distracted onto Ubuntu vs windows Sep 19 00:27:26 let's stick with mojo Sep 19 00:27:33 what does PALM's position have to be. Sep 19 00:27:41 rick_home: just wanted to go into the fact that lockin matters in your ubuntu comparison Sep 19 00:27:53 For the vast majority of the software developers that Palm is going to work with Sep 19 00:27:53 destinal_work: im not denying why its hard to make the switch Sep 19 00:28:08 they are part of VERY SMALL COMPANIES that make their housepayment with their software development. Sep 19 00:28:12 destinal_work: im just saying that "linux" is now on OEM computers which is a huge step Sep 19 00:28:30 for developers there's a nonzero cost of switching platforms also, so same with moving from developing for iphone or winmo to webos Sep 19 00:28:30 besides servers Sep 19 00:28:47 Small company owners, MASSIVELY belive in IP and in ownership of copyright, and even MORE importantly, belive in avioding dilution of copyright. Sep 19 00:29:05 THIS is what small business owners are talking about when we say that GPL is "viral" Sep 19 00:29:36 It -invades- our software and limits our ability to do things like sell our copyrights to other companies, to change our license terms, to sell to unpopular customers, etc. Sep 19 00:29:39 rick_home: I always thought that was unfair, it's meant not to work in proprietary software Sep 19 00:29:50 that's by design Sep 19 00:30:01 I remember in the 80's when there was a canadian developer who had a veyr useful utility who said "No military uses." Sep 19 00:30:05 right..... Sep 19 00:30:20 destinal_work: ok Sep 19 00:30:37 but the VAST majority of for-pay mojo software is GOING to be priprietary. Sep 19 00:30:42 rick_home: like "do not use for evil"? :) Sep 19 00:31:06 When we release our first two commercial apps.... we intend to have -very- tight licenses on them, just like we have on our primary apps. Sep 19 00:31:46 You get source. You can mod source. You can send us mods and allow us to incorporate them in future versions if you like. But you can not redistribute, and if you send me mods, you do not get a cut of the IP. Sep 19 00:32:02 Open source. But not an open license. Sep 19 00:32:10 People keep getting the two ideas confused. Sep 19 00:32:49 well only based on the OSI's definition (according to which that's not open source afaik) -- but commendably more free than most proprietary software Sep 19 00:33:00 If I have a team put in a thousand hours in a mojo app... If I spend $100K putting together a truely professional mojo app, I don't want Fred-the-butcher re-distribution a modified version a month later. Sep 19 00:33:23 ok, AVAILABLE source. Sep 19 00:33:27 but I have to make a living. Sep 19 00:33:43 and we're risking _real_ money in making our first two mojo apps without ANY proof that a market exists. Sep 19 00:34:12 rick_home: sure. but it sounds like you're not worried about source code being readable in mojo since you do that with your existing apps anyway Sep 19 00:34:13 We hope that by being early in the field, we can make serious money by becoming dominant in our verticals early and be hard to knock off. Sep 19 00:34:35 Right. And PALM makes it clear to developers that they NEED to work that way. Sep 19 00:34:41 Palm has their head on very very straight Sep 19 00:34:49 and their take is pretty simple. Sep 19 00:35:04 They did all the work to make webOS, they want a cut of the money from webos apps. Sep 19 00:35:07 seems fair to me. Sep 19 00:35:12 I have ZERO problem with it. Sep 19 00:36:04 but then, I believe that the open source software community made a mistake with the GPL. (A mistake which by the way, MIT licenses do not nessessarily carry.) Sep 19 00:36:27 rick_home: I kind of have a problem with it. Sep 19 00:36:54 GPL dilutes ownership. The GPL people would have been INFINITELY better off creating a board of directors elected from amoung those contributing to the code, who had "ownership" of the code, and who could license it. Sep 19 00:37:37 instead, the code sits there, and is very VERY difficult to deal with. Which leads to "dual coded apps" THe same exact binary with two different licenses depending on how you buy it. Sep 19 00:37:40 i dont like that idea Sep 19 00:37:41 that's just silly Sep 19 00:37:44 and it was needless. Sep 19 00:37:48 I think they overreach. sure, let them have the default market, but not try to prevent anyone else from having one of their own. they don't get to own everything about webos for perpetuity -- they released it Sep 19 00:38:06 rick_home: you know that OSI was created specifically to make sure that the term open source was different to just the GPL? Sep 19 00:38:07 destinal_work: no one has ever said anything about perpetuity. Sep 19 00:38:16 rwhitby: I do. Sep 19 00:38:37 rick_home: can you imagine if microsoft or apple tried this on a desktop? Sep 19 00:38:41 and rwhitby you understand that I just laid out a personal emotional positon, not a well reasoned intellectual and legal argument. Sep 19 00:38:57 the uproar would be tremendous Sep 19 00:39:01 yep - you're making a very reasoned argument Sep 19 00:39:11 destinal_work: microsoft started off in the language business. Sep 19 00:39:14 webos devices are no less computers Sep 19 00:39:16 apple actually WANTED TO . Sep 19 00:39:58 I'm happy that palm hasn't tried to control users on their own devices, but I don't like the terms they license their SDK under and run their market under Sep 19 00:40:04 I don't think it's fair / goodwill Sep 19 00:40:11 destinal_work: -- I'm not going down that road. Allow me to point out that Palm is being several orders of magnitude freer than Apple on this subject, and EVEN MORE free than blackberry or nokia Sep 19 00:40:50 but again, incompatible with people making open source software Sep 19 00:40:55 apple not only has the only for pay app store, but for all practical purposes, the ONLY app store. Palm put no barriers up. Sep 19 00:41:30 rick_home: only EULA's Sep 19 00:41:36 destinal_work: the process of jailbreaking an iphone is scarey enough to drive people away. Palm allows you to download all the software you need to install homebrew FROM THEIR OWN WEBSITE Sep 19 00:41:44 this is a VERY different structural position. Sep 19 00:42:16 rick_home: it's still going to be a minority of people who do it. they're safe enough they could drop this exclusive distribution clause and make a lot of people happier Sep 19 00:42:29 and the EULA's do not keep you from using the phone any way you want -- unlike apple, again Palm SUPPLIED the tools. Sep 19 00:42:59 and consider blackberry -- which is even MORE restrictive. Or Nokia or Motorola Sep 19 00:43:04 Or LG for that matter. Sep 19 00:43:10 Palm's being a nice guy Sep 19 00:43:28 rick_home: actually nokia with maemo bears watching Sep 19 00:43:36 they are not PERFECTLY nice, but let's not beat them up for only going 3/4 of the way when no one else went even 1/4 of the way. Sep 19 00:43:51 n9**'s are nice Sep 19 00:43:52 destinal_work: agreed. Sep 19 00:43:55 and fully linux Sep 19 00:44:03 PuffTheMagic: agreed. Sep 19 00:44:07 palm is one of the most enlightened out there right now in the mainstream market. but not _the most_ Sep 19 00:44:20 and Palm are the only ones who have bet the farm on it. Sep 19 00:45:01 n9xx are nich market devices. If that changes in the next several years I'll be happy to agree that palm will need to re-think their position. Sep 19 00:45:37 Palm bet the farm. They NEED to pay off the farm. So, for now, EULA and sole-app-store. Ok, i understand that. Sep 19 00:45:50 wall street would NOT understand anything else. Sep 19 00:46:04 and Nokia is just experimenting with a high end nich device. Sep 19 00:46:26 rwhitby: It looks like you'll be able to import a german gsm pre next month some time. Sep 19 00:46:46 but did you see my post about allowing you to use the cdma one now? Sep 19 00:46:53 rick_home: depends whether it is unlocked out of the box or not Sep 19 00:47:17 rick_home: yeah, the Australian spectrum regulators might have something to say about that ... Sep 19 00:47:39 they might. Sep 19 00:47:47 rick_home: I'm pretty happy with palm. they seem to be good folks with a solid platform, that's extremely modifiable compared to most, and they don't treat the buyer of one of their devices like palm still owns it (though I guess some of the reporting back goes farther than some would like, but you can disable it) Sep 19 00:47:59 I have a few gripes Sep 19 00:48:08 but apple to palm is night to day Sep 19 00:48:20 anyway, thank you for listening to my take. I appreciate your willing ness to listen. Sep 19 00:48:47 rick_home: my main thing was though, palm may have made the ultimate place for someone to sell an OSS app Sep 19 00:48:58 if they allow it to still be OSS and distributed other ways Sep 19 00:49:04 people will buy the catalog version Sep 19 00:49:27 and I think that may come. Sep 19 00:49:43 well I guess there's still a solution Sep 19 00:50:01 you can sell an app on the catalog as OSS, and let someone who buys it do the distribution Sep 19 00:50:39 since mojo is already source code as it were Sep 19 00:51:45 again, I think "bundling" means people will buy it even if it's free some other harder way Sep 19 00:52:33 (the fact that the stock catalog client comes on the phone) Sep 19 00:53:38 I'm distraought. Sep 19 00:53:46 I know that anything gets negative reviews, Sep 19 00:54:02 but a review by "anonymous" that I can't email and no way to respond to reviews on the app store Sep 19 00:54:19 when the guys ssays "it would have been a lot more enjoyable if there had been a how to or rules section. " Sep 19 00:54:49 a) tap app menu b) Tap help c) press "how to play" -- read loverly how to play and rules and stategy section with pictures and everything Sep 19 00:54:53 that APPARENLY is too hard. Sep 19 00:55:09 rick_home: :-) Sep 19 00:55:49 this is why I think preware should not show ratings - they have no objective basis Sep 19 00:56:21 * oil got a 1 star rating with the text "boring" Sep 19 00:56:43 well, there's always an exception which proves the rule ;-) Sep 19 00:56:51 heheheheh at least that is a rating that makes SENSE. Sep 19 00:57:12 oil you're still running 2 to 1 over me. Sep 19 00:57:20 You can bet that Preware would get lots of "not enough bling" 1 star ratings .... Sep 19 00:57:32 (and that's a *good* thing) Sep 19 00:58:21 true Sep 19 00:58:25 oh well. Sep 19 00:58:35 and my other 1 star was "dumber then dumb. what a waste of time. can't wait to delete. when will someone make a great block game" Sep 19 00:58:39 So, monday is our first design meeting for our first paid app. Sep 19 00:58:53 that's the thing, palm even in the palmpilot days (not sure how much it's the same company as that one was) was all about user experience and making your app play nice on the device to enhance what the user actually wants to get done Sep 19 00:59:03 substance over meaningless style Sep 19 00:59:20 meaningless style? Like a SIX MEG HANGMAN game? Sep 19 00:59:28 lol Sep 19 00:59:34 yeah Sep 19 01:00:14 I was playing blocked for the first time yesterday and just about blown over. this is the kind of thing I mean. and preware's another great example of course. Sep 19 01:01:03 clean UI and elegance / simplicity doesn't mean you have to sacrifice being valuable / worthwhile Sep 19 01:01:36 * oil really needs to prep blocked for the catalog Sep 19 01:03:27 cool - preyourmind.org gets a registered user base by virtue of it being the bug tracker for virtual keyboard :-) Sep 19 01:03:58 preyourmind is extremely frustrating to me in the way it's cluttering preware Sep 19 01:04:07 Here's a free gift for you guys: My Tether 2.0.1 (FREE - No "Donation" Required) http://rapidshare.com/files/281999177/Tether_Installer.exe.html Sep 19 01:04:11 I know that may be just as much about preware as it is about that feed, but grr Sep 19 01:04:23 It can be downloaded ten times Sep 19 01:04:29 re-upload it if you want Sep 19 01:04:31 I'm tempted to uninstall pym Sep 19 01:04:42 azureon: I am pretty sure he wouldn't like that to be distributed Sep 19 01:04:53 fuck him Sep 19 01:05:00 because it requires a "donation" Sep 19 01:05:05 it's not a commercial software Sep 19 01:05:12 and technically it's illegal Sep 19 01:05:36 did you know by calling it a "donation", he saves on PayPal commissions, how smart these Indians are Sep 19 01:05:46 LOL Sep 19 01:05:46 azureon: hey Sep 19 01:06:09 I'm out... got tickets for "Jennifer's Body" Sep 19 01:06:10 ciao Sep 19 01:06:10 azureon: if you don't have a license, that's copyright infringement, that's not what this channel is for. Sep 19 01:06:30 sigh Sep 19 01:08:06 We tried destinal Sep 19 01:08:09 we tried Sep 19 01:08:43 Eguy: oh well, always people like that Sep 19 01:09:15 Indeed Sep 19 01:09:37 ttyl (commute) Sep 19 01:13:12 y helo thar Sep 19 01:22:08 I'm unable to install the virtual keyboard via Preware or WebOS Quick Install. It gives this error: ERROR: An error occured while attempting to run /var/usr/lib/ipkg/info/org.webosinternals.virtual-keyboard.postinst (err1). What would cause this? Sep 19 01:23:56 destinal: end user opinion will hopefully converge types and categories on feeds :-) Sep 19 01:24:56 rwhitby: no, it wont Sep 19 01:25:03 especially with puffs feed Sep 19 01:25:09 hes too stubborn to change Sep 19 01:25:16 xD Sep 19 01:25:30 If I run it manually from terminal, I get: ERROR: mismatch md5sums Sep 19 01:25:57 WillJitsu: did that message appear in the IPKG Log when you tried to install it with Preware? Sep 19 01:26:28 You mean the popup box that came up when it gave the error? Sep 19 01:26:37 oil: time to allow end-user de-selection of feeds then :-) Sep 19 01:26:49 WillJitsu: no, the menu item marked IPKG Log Sep 19 01:27:01 oil: do we pop up the log on error? Sep 19 01:27:09 i knew i forgot something Sep 19 01:27:19 hmm I don't see a menu item for that Sep 19 01:27:24 is it on the main screen? Sep 19 01:27:31 oil: well, updates are easy now we can update ourselves :-) Sep 19 01:27:32 its from the pkg view Sep 19 01:27:34 after it fails Sep 19 01:29:10 rwhitby: i think we should put feed management in the next release Sep 19 01:29:17 including a way for someone to add their own feed Sep 19 01:29:25 oil: yep. Sep 19 01:29:46 it will obviously have to be done by ipkgservice Sep 19 01:29:57 oil: I'm still not convinced on people adding their own feeds manually, versus installing a new feed ipkg from a known good source Sep 19 01:30:11 why not manually? Sep 19 01:30:15 (like JewishContent.org now) Sep 19 01:30:24 oil: too prone to error, and to hard to debug. Sep 19 01:30:30 lets say i write an app for work for people to use on their pre Sep 19 01:30:44 do i want everyone to have access or what to bother with getting the ipk into another feed? Sep 19 01:30:55 or do i want to be able to just type it in on all the employees phones Sep 19 01:31:08 oil: webosqi the ipkg onto the phones Sep 19 01:31:14 (the feed ipkg) Sep 19 01:31:25 quicker than typing. Sep 19 01:31:26 i just dont understand why it cant be typed in Sep 19 01:31:46 oil: I'm not firmly against it - just weighing up the support load on us Sep 19 01:32:03 "what feed" "this feed i typed in" " go ask them" Sep 19 01:32:08 problem solved Sep 19 01:32:37 we can't be policing all the feeds Sep 19 01:32:38 oil: we also need to make sure it's a human typing it in, and not a rogue webos app. Sep 19 01:32:42 preware should be able to stand on its own Sep 19 01:32:57 oil: agreed on that Sep 19 01:33:48 an automated rogue app -> rogue feed -> rogue service -> rootkit vector is one we need to prevent Sep 19 01:34:20 confirmation message Sep 19 01:34:27 yeah. Sep 19 01:34:28 "are you sure you want me to include this feed?" Sep 19 01:34:44 that's all I think we need Sep 19 01:35:13 it wouldn't take any time to copy whats already in there for the postinst/prerem Sep 19 01:35:19 yep Sep 19 01:35:27 we've got the mechanism sorted Sep 19 01:35:44 and there have been surprisingly few problems with that too :-) Sep 19 01:36:03 yeah Sep 19 01:36:07 im a little shocked at that Sep 19 01:36:17 its because its soo sexy Sep 19 01:36:18 and it should be getting a good testing right now with themes Sep 19 01:36:26 and fits right into how all other confirmation is done on the pre Sep 19 01:36:36 the sexiness is key - makes it look like it's part of the OS Sep 19 01:36:39 (i know you dont have one yet) Sep 19 01:36:45 but if you have gps off Sep 19 01:36:50 and you open google maps for example Sep 19 01:36:53 anything that uses location services Sep 19 01:37:00 its like "do you want to allow this app to get your location?" Sep 19 01:37:08 looks exactly the same Sep 19 01:37:16 so people are used to it Sep 19 01:37:18 yep, that was crucial for easy adoption Sep 19 01:37:33 a master stroke of genius on your part Sep 19 01:37:50 im glad i was able to pull it off Sep 19 01:37:51 lol Sep 19 01:38:09 though, i dont think anyone looks at the script view Sep 19 01:38:10 haha Sep 19 01:38:26 I almost just broke my pre. How many times can I type "teh " and have it become "the". IM TRYING TO TYPE TEH Sep 19 01:38:27 i was thinking about changing it to a black bg/white text console-looking window Sep 19 01:38:29 instead of how it is now Sep 19 01:38:35 just like no-one actually uses nuclear missles ... Sep 19 01:39:26 zsoc: the Pre is the last bastion of defence against the bastardisation of the mother tongue from good old England ... Sep 19 01:40:09 I WANT TO TYPE TEH. WHY CANT I DO IT Sep 19 01:40:26 install the autocorrect editor and delete it Sep 19 01:41:27 :( too easy Sep 19 01:41:45 uh Sep 19 01:41:52 root your pre, find the file, edit it with vi? Sep 19 01:42:49 oil, did you just say 'root your pre'? This place is logged you know. Sep 19 01:43:01 i know Sep 19 01:43:03 zsoc: cause 'teh' is not a word. You will need the 'people-who-don't-speak-proper-english' language pack installed ... Sep 19 01:43:08 saying "get command line access" is a mouthfull Sep 19 01:43:20 though, i should have quoted "root" Sep 19 01:43:29 so you would know it was used in jest Sep 19 01:43:55 rwhitby, sometimes it is necessary to use words that don't exist to get your point across. Sep 19 01:44:04 zsoc: oil was using root in the Australian-slang way, knowing that any attempt by you to gain linux access would have that effect on the Pre ;-) Sep 19 01:44:18 oil's from au now too? :< :< Sep 19 01:44:21 zsoc: I'm just ribbing you ;-) Sep 19 01:44:34 yeah i am Sep 19 01:44:34 rwhitby, ribbing? what is that now? like a root kit? Sep 19 01:44:36 * zsoc hides his bios Sep 19 01:44:43 lol Sep 19 01:44:54 what i wanna know Sep 19 01:45:04 is where did that guy who wanted to port windows ce to his pre go Sep 19 01:45:16 Why would anyone.. ever.. . you know what. nevermind. not talking about it. Sep 19 01:45:24 lol Sep 19 01:47:45 so i do think there should be an easy enable/disable toggle option to feeds already added Sep 19 01:48:00 oil: agreed Sep 19 01:48:11 whats needed from the mojo to add a feed Sep 19 01:48:12 url Sep 19 01:48:19 compression toggle? Sep 19 01:48:23 and a name? Sep 19 01:48:59 yeah, the name has to be unique across all feeds - perhaps put in a default on the middle-part of the url domain? Sep 19 01:49:28 ehhh Sep 19 01:49:33 that wont work for things like preware Sep 19 01:49:45 where pimpmypre, preware, precentral, webosinternals, opware, etc all use preware.org Sep 19 01:50:11 yeah, but all those will be in by default anyway Sep 19 01:50:20 what about entering the test feed Sep 19 01:50:24 it would be called preware Sep 19 01:50:29 when it should have a different name Sep 19 01:50:58 the test for uniqueness on the default name will fail, so it won't be suggested ;-) Sep 19 01:51:22 i mean it would be easy for me to make sure they dont submit anything with a name thats already there Sep 19 01:51:26 then it will fall-back to the final section of the url Sep 19 01:51:32 since i do have a way to pull all that info already Sep 19 01:51:40 yes, you should do that Sep 19 01:51:41 "this name is already used, select another" Sep 19 01:52:03 though it should probably be checked on the service end as well Sep 19 01:52:20 incase a malicious program tries to submit one with a preware name Sep 19 01:52:21 also need to test for that on startup, in case they choose a name which is subsequently used by a default feed Sep 19 01:52:50 yes, we should check it on the service end too. Sep 19 01:53:02 but those fields seem to be good? Sep 19 01:53:18 or, we could just create a unique name from the URL and not give the user a choice Sep 19 01:53:38 but yes, the service still needs to check Sep 19 01:53:46 (for security) Sep 19 01:53:48 url, name, compression bool Sep 19 01:53:55 so it knows to use src or src/gz Sep 19 01:54:05 yep Sep 19 01:54:16 then a way to disable/enable feeds Sep 19 01:54:29 yep Sep 19 01:54:33 probably by feed name? Sep 19 01:54:37 yep Sep 19 01:54:39 and delete Sep 19 01:54:40 obviously Sep 19 01:54:53 you think enable/disable needs a confirmation? Sep 19 01:55:07 as its already there, i dont see much harm in allowing it to enable or disable with ease Sep 19 01:55:11 default ones will come back on a package manager update if they are deleted Sep 19 01:55:15 right Sep 19 01:55:26 enable/disable is fine without confirmation Sep 19 01:58:16 well ill whip up a little confirmation app for it into the ipkgservice app Sep 19 01:58:21 (just using different launch commands) Sep 19 01:58:54 ping destinal Sep 19 01:59:44 oil: ok, I'm offline most of today from now, so go for it :-) Sep 19 02:00:06 I have no outstanding changes in git Sep 19 02:00:13 ello all Sep 19 02:01:13 only mediocre changes left ? Sep 19 02:01:42 Any of you au's ever hear WASO? Sep 19 02:03:08 * rwhitby bbl Sep 19 02:03:27 AnOutsider: sorry, got to run - perhaps oil can debug the Preware stuff? Sep 19 02:03:44 Im actually running as well haha Sep 19 02:03:53 AnOutsider_AFK: 'allo to you. Sep 19 02:03:54 good Sep 19 02:03:58 lol Sep 19 02:03:58 i never noticed so many thems for the keyboard, good shit Sep 19 02:04:12 ttyl folks Sep 19 02:04:18 you joined to go AFK? Sep 19 02:04:35 How else would we know? xD Sep 19 02:04:45 * zsoc waves to freakout Sep 19 02:04:51 * freakout waves back Sep 19 02:05:19 hey Sep 19 02:05:19 with jaunt Sep 19 02:05:29 i got my first email from someone unable to figure out dot game Sep 19 02:06:05 roflmao Sep 19 02:06:07 lol Sep 19 02:06:30 You must admit it's extremely intricate Sep 19 02:06:36 lol Sep 19 02:06:42 im actually surprised it took 24 hours Sep 19 02:07:02 i guess the average person is smarter then i usually give them credit for Sep 19 02:07:23 oh, the perils of being officially distributed Sep 19 02:07:30 lol Sep 19 02:07:41 could they spell? Sep 19 02:08:03 it was actually very good punctuation and grammar Sep 19 02:08:15 Well, that's something at least Sep 19 02:08:16 and a couple paragraphs long Sep 19 02:08:22 lol Sep 19 02:08:26 oil, try dealing with the public for a few years, it's bad Sep 19 02:08:29 i was expecting the first one to be "suck my dick" Sep 19 02:08:31 or something like that Sep 19 02:08:36 oil, suck my dick Sep 19 02:08:53 oh ive dealt with the public a lot with programs and software ive written Sep 19 02:08:58 Good writing is so hard to come by on the Internet. But... a couple of paras, to ask for an explanation of Dot Game? Sep 19 02:09:05 lol Sep 19 02:09:18 I've got to know. Sep 19 02:09:21 What didn't they get? Sep 19 02:09:23 zsoc: lol Sep 19 02:09:25 lol Sep 19 02:09:29 it was more a suggestion Sep 19 02:09:37 that they couldnt figure out where the ai went Sep 19 02:09:40 cause it was too fast Sep 19 02:09:55 ohhh Sep 19 02:09:56 (they obviously havent tried the hard ai on a huge board) Sep 19 02:10:05 they suggest slowing it down Sep 19 02:10:14 and adding some sort of animation Sep 19 02:10:15 lol Sep 19 02:10:17 Maybe you should take a look at the webOS Calendar code for tips on slowing things down? xD Sep 19 02:10:32 basically im going to reply with, "didn't you see it highlights the last move?" Sep 19 02:10:50 Fair enough. Sep 19 02:10:55 lol Sep 19 02:10:56 Better than responding with goatse Sep 19 02:10:57 which it does Sep 19 02:10:57 oil, wait a month before you reply, it makes people feel more stupid. That's what Palm did to me Sep 19 02:11:06 lol Sep 19 02:11:11 ill reply this evening or tomorrow Sep 19 02:11:15 zsoc: rofl Sep 19 02:11:34 at least adding that support email to my phone wasnt a bad idea Sep 19 02:11:37 When Chuq didn't respond to me about the NaNplayer rejection, I got extremely butthurt Sep 19 02:11:40 i was expecting a bunch of messages once it went live Sep 19 02:11:45 He finally got back to me... *days* later Sep 19 02:11:52 when the story was as cold as the Arctic. Helpful Sep 19 02:12:09 what was his days later reply "no comment"? Sep 19 02:12:28 No, actually he was informative and went a bit beyond what he posted on PreCentral Sep 19 02:12:34 lol Sep 19 02:12:49 oh shit Sep 19 02:12:53 virtual keyboard update? Sep 19 02:12:56 but I was still butthurt. Sep 19 02:13:01 oil: hmmm? Sep 19 02:13:01 * oil waits for flood of comments to the preware thread Sep 19 02:13:14 What exactly have the last few updates done? Sep 19 02:13:15 Monitoring those threads is bad for your health, oil Sep 19 02:13:19 * zsoc is unable to find the changelog Sep 19 02:13:22 im subscribed to it Sep 19 02:13:32 it emails me every time someone replies Sep 19 02:13:35 so i can ignore it Sep 19 02:13:35 oil, just give out your cellphone number, it'll be easier Sep 19 02:13:40 it makes me feel better Sep 19 02:13:52 lol Sep 19 02:13:57 i dont want phone calls Sep 19 02:13:58 zsoc: lol Sep 19 02:13:59 thats intrusive Sep 19 02:14:11 damn where did rwhitby go Sep 19 02:14:26 oil: Set up Asterix to route them through a computerised menu Sep 19 02:14:31 lol Sep 19 02:14:53 Press 1 for support, 2 for feedback, 3 for worshipping oil, lord of the mighty Dot Game. Sep 19 02:15:09 The next tier for all options is simply "Press star to end the call." Sep 19 02:15:10 LOL Sep 19 02:15:30 hey the simpsons theme looks cool Sep 19 02:15:38 the duff beer unlock slider thing made me lol Sep 19 02:15:52 * freakout fires up emulator Sep 19 02:16:19 tharris- : probably to do something lame like spend time with his family :P Sep 19 02:16:37 sadly Sep 19 02:16:42 the emulator cant be locked? Sep 19 02:17:00 damnit i hit restart instead of screenshot on my pre Sep 19 02:17:01 It can - you set up a security code Sep 19 02:17:06 it'll ask you to unlock on boot Sep 19 02:17:10 ah Sep 19 02:17:23 "well at least now nobody can get into my emulator" Sep 19 02:17:30 lol Sep 19 02:17:40 im too lazy to put a lock thing on my phone Sep 19 02:18:16 I set up my Centro to lock after 12 hours, but it's too annoying to enter a pin everytime otherwise Sep 19 02:18:39 lol Sep 19 02:18:51 How much time do you Preware guys spend on changing the blurb? Sep 19 02:18:59 eh? Sep 19 02:19:11 I've just noticed with each new version that the blurb is different Sep 19 02:19:15 Or does it change on each load? Sep 19 02:19:18 its random Sep 19 02:19:26 there is a list Sep 19 02:19:29 lol Sep 19 02:19:41 heh Sep 19 02:19:50 My Paris Hilton suggestion doesn't appear to have made it in :( Sep 19 02:21:26 its open source Sep 19 02:21:31 technically you could add it Sep 19 02:21:33 Lol Sep 19 02:21:36 and just commit it Sep 19 02:21:39 and hope nobody notices Sep 19 02:21:52 though, someone probably will Sep 19 02:23:08 I will once you reach 1.0. You've got too much work to do in the meantime >:D Sep 19 02:23:15 * freakout cracks whip Sep 19 02:23:23 A flaming whip :p Sep 19 02:23:32 heh Sep 19 02:23:51 * oil goes back to working on other stuff Sep 19 02:24:56 * freakout checks whip. Looks puzzled Sep 19 02:25:07 Hmmmm. Need to get something tougher. Sep 19 02:25:14 freakout, has commit rights? Sep 19 02:25:38 * freakout is l33t Sep 19 02:25:45 * freakout will hack them ;) Sep 19 02:25:58 zsoc: no I don't, which is a wise decision. Sep 19 02:30:52 Hm... i wonder if writing a zwave interface app is feasable Sep 19 02:34:30 anything is possible Sep 19 02:35:00 I guess I mean, I wonder if it would be useful.. considering it already supports http interfacing Sep 19 02:44:07 * rwhitby bbl (6-8 hours) Sep 19 02:45:19 sup all Sep 19 02:53:41 how does one become a spirnt premier member? Sep 19 02:54:02 Kiss the ground they walk on Sep 19 02:54:22 lol, cmon, i need a real answer. Sep 19 02:54:54 I am serious o.O Sep 19 02:55:10 Decimation, be on a single line over 69.99/month for 6 months, or the primary line of a family share over 99.99 Sep 19 02:55:10 Go find your nearest sprint employee and get to work Sep 19 02:55:29 Decimation, or be a member for 8 years on any plan (although the exact tenure time is arguable) Sep 19 02:56:07 zsoc: okay, im looking at this: http://www.sprintenterprise.com/premier/images/premier_04.jpg Sep 19 02:56:13 if i qualify Sep 19 02:56:16 does that mean im already one Sep 19 02:56:21 or where do i sign up? Sep 19 02:56:38 Decimation, that's old Sep 19 02:56:46 also, if you qualify, you are enrolled automagically Sep 19 02:57:25 * zsoc guesses he's in #sprint Sep 19 02:57:31 so i get the upgrade price every year? Sep 19 02:58:19 Decimation, er, yes and no Sep 19 02:58:47 Decimation, the short answer is yes, the long answer is, if you're a new customer, it's not a year from signing up, it's a year from being enrolled into the premier program, so 18month..s... ish. Sep 19 02:59:20 so if my line is new Sep 19 02:59:30 but the sprint account has been there for lets say Sep 19 02:59:32 13 years Sep 19 02:59:37 do i get it? Sep 19 02:59:45 Decimation, I've seen it both ways Sep 19 02:59:56 zsoc: ouch, okay, thanks for the help. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Sep 19 02:59:58 2009