**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 08 02:59:56 2010 Apr 08 03:00:25 also log in with novaterm as soon as you can to set the settings, that seemed to help me Apr 08 03:02:00 ok Apr 08 03:02:17 i'll play with it tomorrow. i'm beat... lots of kernel builds and reboots today :) Apr 08 03:02:24 *grin* Apr 08 03:02:37 I'm just working with phil_bw and then I'm off too... thanks for all your help :-) Apr 08 03:02:53 thanx to your for playing with preempt Apr 08 03:03:00 you Apr 08 03:03:11 just glad it's working :-) Apr 08 03:03:18 now, when I can finally get -rt going.... Apr 08 03:03:24 that would rule! Apr 08 03:03:33 as well as fix pulseaudio! Apr 08 03:04:56 i can't believe you guys are still at it Apr 08 03:05:32 i have a faster build VM ;) Apr 08 03:06:43 haha Apr 08 03:06:53 how much faster did it get? Apr 08 03:07:25 noticeably faster Apr 08 03:08:10 its impressive Apr 08 03:09:04 new kernel seems to help things out ? Apr 08 03:09:20 yup Apr 08 03:09:36 neato Apr 08 03:24:20 hi - never used this b4, but im having trouble getting the xp preware install to work. it doesnt see my pre. i have 1.4.1.1 installed on the pre Apr 08 03:24:42 it_tek: is dev mode enabled? what install guide are you following? Apr 08 03:25:12 yes it is. the windows one on preware.org Apr 08 03:25:24 I'm not certain if those are kept up to date or not. Apr 08 03:25:49 You could try downloading webos quickinstall 3.02 Apr 08 03:25:58 is there a very recent one or a youtube maybe Apr 08 03:26:06 install.preware.org Apr 08 03:26:11 oh where is that Apr 08 03:26:16 oh thanks ill try Apr 08 03:26:44 come back if you need help :) Apr 08 03:26:53 will do thanks Apr 08 03:28:02 Lotta webchatters tonight.. Apr 08 03:28:10 is there anyway to send internet from your laptop to the palm pre through the usb cable? have ethernet but no wifi here vacationing and was hoping to update some things on the pre Apr 08 03:28:59 Volcom45: there is a method some call "reverse tethering" Apr 08 03:29:09 it /is/ possible, but there's no preconfigured way to do it Apr 08 03:29:25 use novaterm and ssh out from your pre Apr 08 03:29:50 sbromwich: i'm not sure what's what he meant by "hoping to update some things" Apr 08 03:29:58 lol ya Apr 08 03:30:02 want to update some apps Apr 08 03:30:06 etc. Apr 08 03:30:13 your pre has no data connection at all, huh ? Apr 08 03:30:27 Probably more like, enable usbnet, bridge the connection from your laptop.. set ip tables to forward uh.. in reverse Apr 08 03:30:30 well, it has wifi but i'm in airplane mode Apr 08 03:30:31 i wonder if usbnet would work if your laptop acted as the router Apr 08 03:30:32 zsoc: WFM :-) Apr 08 03:30:33 dont want major charges Apr 08 03:30:35 Volcom45: wait, doesn't your laptop have a wifi card in it? Apr 08 03:30:41 no Apr 08 03:30:46 oh, hm Apr 08 03:30:49 i'm plugged into ethernet Apr 08 03:30:59 Volcom45: right, but is there a wifi card in it at all Apr 08 03:31:07 you could use it to connect to your Pre (maybe) Apr 08 03:31:26 yes there is a wifi card in it Apr 08 03:31:31 at any rate, destinal is probably the one to ask and i don't see him here at the moment Apr 08 03:31:34 and i have mytether Apr 08 03:31:38 think it reverse tethers somehow Apr 08 03:31:40 haven't ever tried it Apr 08 03:31:54 you could try bridging your ethernet connection on your laptop to your wifi card, but that would be adhoc (and i don't think the pre can connect to adhoc networks) Apr 08 03:32:11 anyway, i gotta jet Apr 08 03:32:21 thanks Apr 08 03:32:52 it will do ad-hoc but you have to do it to the command line Apr 08 03:36:03 it's bad when you get into bed and the first thing you do it open wirc Apr 08 03:36:38 zsoc_wirc, haha, I know what you mean Apr 08 03:36:46 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html Apr 08 03:36:52 thanks phil_bw! Apr 08 03:37:11 and of course thanks to unixpsycho, without whom... Apr 08 03:37:39 np sbromwich, if anyone else needs any hosting on a pro server under my cf3n.com domain name just let me know Apr 08 03:38:47 sbromwich: video seems to be 0 bytes Apr 08 03:39:13 indeed it is... lemme redownload and reupload Apr 08 03:39:14 stupid windows Apr 08 03:39:41 hosting page says 20040407 .. guessing it should be 20100407 ? Apr 08 03:39:58 it's late, give me a sec Apr 08 03:40:09 take your time - :) Apr 08 03:40:11 hi im back, when i try using webos quick install 302 it runs and tries to install novacom and i get a system error, system information has encountered and error and needs to close...then novacom continues to run and remove the service and reinstall and then i get nothing. it doesnt see the device Apr 08 03:40:49 blah, windows keeps screwin up the vid Apr 08 03:42:47 vid should be fixed Apr 08 03:42:52 as well as year Apr 08 03:43:11 how I wound up in 2004 is beyond me Apr 08 03:43:26 heh Apr 08 03:44:11 morning Apr 08 03:44:17 sbromwich: nice work on the kernel Apr 08 03:44:25 rwhitby, gday Apr 08 03:44:30 sbromwich: we really need to give you git access to the kernel/patches.git repo Apr 08 03:44:41 Interesting issue. On my newly replaced Pre I paired my Jawbone Bluetooth headset, pairing went just fine. The only issue is no call audio will come through the headset. The headset can control the phone volume, redial, answer, hang up, even rings when I get a call. But the audio just will not come through the headset while I am on a call Apr 08 03:44:55 You guys are brave putting up a PreCentral forum post Apr 08 03:45:39 phil_bw, sbromwich (& others) - we could use the webos-internals google groups mailing list as a means of communicating amongst a more technical audience Apr 08 03:46:07 rwhitby, didn't know it existed Apr 08 03:46:20 I love "I was careful to make the launcher scroll up and down" :-) Apr 08 03:46:38 phil_bw: we don't advertise it :) Apr 08 03:46:52 (especially not on PreCentral) Apr 08 03:46:55 thanks rwhitby but I don't usually have the free time to justify it Apr 08 03:47:07 quite a few freesmartphone.org guys on that list Apr 08 03:47:16 nice video Apr 08 03:47:24 good idea posting just the raw uImage too Apr 08 03:47:32 scrolling the launcher up and down seems to be the benchmark that everyone does Apr 08 03:47:34 *shrug* Apr 08 03:47:54 me, I use preware alpha processing the feeds because I prefer to see something making the cpu work, but hey... Apr 08 03:48:20 sbromwich: preware alpha is already twice the speed of preware classic processing a full feed set Apr 08 03:48:22 I preferred your earlier methods of benchmarking ;) Apr 08 03:48:48 I've beenusing preware alpha to test my different kernels ;-) Apr 08 03:49:00 I don't think there's anything else on there that stresses the system so much Apr 08 03:49:14 hmm - the video is only about 5 secs on my mac - must be something wrong at my end Apr 08 03:49:33 ah, that's better Apr 08 03:50:37 scrolling the list of everthing is a good benchmark Apr 08 03:50:46 is it? Apr 08 03:50:56 I was just looking for something useful to install Apr 08 03:51:12 failed, so I just installed the most recently updated app... someone got a free ad out of the deal ;-) Apr 08 03:51:28 sbromwich: you should set your second line prefs to price and feed Apr 08 03:51:40 I should? Apr 08 03:51:42 are we going to throw a Preware launch party for 1.0? Apr 08 03:51:51 I prefer to have the date on it Apr 08 03:52:03 hmmm.... Apr 08 03:52:07 i suggest preware launch party for 1.0 at rwhitby's house Apr 08 03:52:07 I wonder... Apr 08 03:52:09 Checkbook is supported by Save/Restore, so it's a good choice Apr 08 03:52:22 I am a timelord so dates are more interesting than cost to me ;-) Apr 08 03:52:22 yeah, preware 1.0 launch party is in the Outback Apr 08 03:52:32 how hard it would be to make a wprime type app for webos Apr 08 03:53:12 as in prime numbers? Apr 08 03:53:14 BUT one thats capable of being distributed through the app store using the PDK as well Apr 08 03:53:16 yeah Apr 08 03:53:16 sbromwich: so version, date & feed ? Apr 08 03:53:23 yup Apr 08 03:53:37 sbromwich: I'll add that option Apr 08 03:53:40 thanks :-) Apr 08 03:53:54 if you had commit access, you could add it ... ;) Apr 08 03:54:01 I don't know enough about the PDK to make it though Apr 08 03:54:09 how fortunate it is that I don't then ;-) Apr 08 03:54:19 hell, I could do it in JS I guess..... maybe.... Apr 08 03:54:35 halfhalo_T400: theoretically quite simple, I could knock up a naive implementation in about 5 minutes in perl Apr 08 03:55:01 what a shame there are no perl bindings for webos. Apr 08 03:55:21 (are there any palm devs still around to hear that hint clanking to the floor?) Apr 08 03:55:43 Well, I'm thinking that making it using the PDK would be best in this case since it lets EVERYONE see how there pre is doing compared to others... Apr 08 03:56:10 I think glxgears might be better suited Apr 08 03:56:51 specially if GL is indeed supported Apr 08 03:58:43 ha, running preware and preware alpha at the same time makes me giggle Apr 08 03:58:50 also, it's ridiculously fast Apr 08 03:59:43 that's the plan :-) Apr 08 04:01:06 anyone else want any additional second line preference values while I'm there adding one? Apr 08 04:02:32 would I be pushing my luck to ask if it would be possible to mark gpl licensed code? Apr 08 04:02:32 sbromwich: there is a License option Apr 08 04:02:32 and Price & License Apr 08 04:03:11 I think I might have put that wrong... not list it as GPL per se but to mark it as an icon or something Apr 08 04:03:34 it would give me warm fuzzies to see GPL/BSD software marked as preferential :-) Apr 08 04:03:39 you'd need to contribute code directly for that one ;) Apr 08 04:04:01 bah! Apr 08 04:04:23 we'd need a tiny icon (like the arrows) to overlay the app icon too Apr 08 04:04:24 let me know when the perl bindings are ready ;-) Apr 08 04:04:52 ohhhh... Apr 08 04:04:56 I just thought of something Apr 08 04:05:08 ok, I've added "Version, Date & Feed" - do you want "Version, Date & License" too ? Apr 08 04:05:27 I don't know if I'm approaching this the wrong way, but wouldn't it be possible to have an app that is all php code with php executing on the back end and just spitting out html? Apr 08 04:05:48 feed is enough for me but license as well would be nice for completeness :-) Apr 08 04:06:34 I should just find someone who can contribute some sort of mult-option selection widget for it, so you can build your own combination Apr 08 04:06:52 yeah, that'd be easiest Apr 08 04:07:00 a list of toggle buttons that you can reorder would do it Apr 08 04:07:31 or 3 dropdown lists sorted by order of presentation Apr 08 04:13:01 yeah, I can do that in the existing scene, just add a separate group for it Apr 08 04:20:12 Ok, I'm bored so I started looking over Preware's JS files Apr 08 04:20:32 lol Apr 08 04:22:26 and and just wondering why you are pushing two items onto a list model in the help-assistant.js file instead of either doing it all at once, which is the better idea, or just not use a list widget and use the palm-list class with html Apr 08 04:24:44 uh Apr 08 04:24:51 thats your only comment? Apr 08 04:25:00 lol Apr 08 04:25:04 I only looked at that page so far Apr 08 04:25:15 its like that because thats just how it is? Apr 08 04:25:30 the help scene was copied from elsewhere Apr 08 04:25:36 ... Apr 08 04:25:51 Well, I also see an opportunity to get rid of duplicate code there Apr 08 04:26:08 lol Apr 08 04:26:22 Yes, that bugs me. Get over it Apr 08 04:26:25 i doubt 2 pushes to array vs doing it all at once really makes all that much difference Apr 08 04:26:57 and if the items are pushed seperately Apr 08 04:27:05 logic could be added to decide what is in the list Apr 08 04:27:12 like a place for help for another language Apr 08 04:27:16 that only is pushed if needed Apr 08 04:27:24 if the app is in that language* Apr 08 04:27:38 doing it at once would remove that possibility :) Apr 08 04:27:42 * oil just made that up Apr 08 04:27:45 Not really Apr 08 04:27:47 there really isn't any reason Apr 08 04:28:19 but feel free to change it Apr 08 04:28:30 then we'll call you a preware developer, and send users asking for help your way :) Apr 08 04:28:44 brb Apr 08 04:32:24 lol Apr 08 04:32:31 a lot of the other scenes have multiple pushes too Apr 08 04:32:44 I saw Apr 08 04:32:47 haha Apr 08 04:38:31 hello Apr 08 04:38:49 hi Apr 08 04:38:56 ok, back to making my app faster Apr 08 04:40:02 not preware? Apr 08 04:40:13 Not at the moment Apr 08 04:40:33 I re-wrote my app from scratch again to speed it up even more Apr 08 04:40:38 saved package list) Apr 08 04:40:38 its fast... Apr 08 04:41:15 meh Apr 08 04:41:47 let me try that again... Apr 08 04:42:24 I was wondering if anyone was familiar with the new preware feature... Apr 08 04:42:43 I'm going to guess yes Apr 08 04:43:02 mostly since the people who wrote it are here Apr 08 04:43:32 that's what I was hoping to hear... Apr 08 04:43:50 now for the total noob question... Apr 08 04:44:27 how do I save a package list and load it later? Apr 08 04:44:50 or , where is th fine manual so I can read it? Apr 08 04:45:27 pawnshop88: http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew Apr 08 04:45:55 pawnshop88: your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to take that can write up better instructions on the Preware wiki page Apr 08 04:46:02 s/can/and/ Apr 08 04:46:03 rwhitby meant: pawnshop88: your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to take that and write up better instructions on the Preware wiki page Apr 08 04:46:14 rwhitby, you need to teach infobot that so we can all remember it. Apr 08 04:46:48 infobot: HGoH is the Holy Grail of Homebrew, which can be found at http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew Apr 08 04:46:49 okay, rwhitby Apr 08 04:46:54 ~HGoH Apr 08 04:46:55 i heard hgoh is the Holy Grail of Homebrew, which can be found at http://bit.ly/holy-grail-of-homebrew Apr 08 04:47:26 * phil_bw wanders off Apr 08 04:47:29 nice Apr 08 04:48:48 of course I've been outof the IRC sceene for a few years now... So maybe I'm just easily impressed... But I am impressed. Apr 08 05:20:00 Erm. Why would my Jawbone be paired to my Pre but no audio will come out of the headset? Apr 08 05:20:31 Magic? Apr 08 05:20:42 Heh... don't think so Apr 08 05:21:39 I got this replacement Pre today and I paired my jawbone no problem, Pre says it's connected etc... I can even change the volume on the Pre via the headset, answer, hang up, anything... just no sound will come out while on a call Apr 08 05:22:18 Any troubleshooting help would be greatly appreciated :) Apr 08 05:25:52 TheInvsbleMan: Try turning off the jawbone, conneccting it to the charger for a moment, removing from charger, and turning it back on. Apr 08 05:27:33 Mercury: Thanks. But no dice... hmmm Apr 08 05:27:56 I have 2 Jawbones... I have tried them both, and I get the same thing on both of them. It must be the Pre Apr 08 05:37:26 dtzWill: So, Debian chroot - what are our options? Apr 08 05:37:57 Well I don't have all the options, hopefully we can find one that hasn't been done already, or some combination Apr 08 05:38:25 the simplest is simply shipping a base chroot and just asserting that's "big enough for anyone" Apr 08 05:38:27 repartitioning LVM is out from my perspective - too hard for general users Apr 08 05:38:56 I agree, and wouldn't that cause issues with doctoring/etc? Ideally we could maintain compatibility with what palm's doing Apr 08 05:39:16 don't want to have to design all this later/per update :) Apr 08 05:40:23 we DO have a resize2fs on the pre, but running it is a terrible idea, at least it was for me Apr 08 05:40:26 so palm solved it using crptofs mount from a .palm dir on vfat Apr 08 05:40:50 but that still only gives vfat semantics, and I doubt we can do a debian chroot with vfat semantics Apr 08 05:41:26 so what other filesystem choices do we have for mounting from a file that grows and shrinks, and the mount can do ext3 semantics? Apr 08 05:41:27 oh cryptofs can't emulate other semantics? bah Apr 08 05:41:46 cryptofs is file based, not image based Apr 08 05:42:06 I wonder if there is anything in fuse we can use Apr 08 05:42:07 rwhitby: that's the question, and I agree with your requirements list Apr 08 05:42:35 rwhitby: ah but it wasn't clear to me that one couldn't fake it with some hackery, shrug Apr 08 05:46:03 doesn't answer our questions really but worth looking at perhaps: http://wiki.maemo.org/Easy_Debian <-- how maemo guys are handling this Apr 08 05:53:02 Who knows about PmLogCtl/ Apr 08 05:53:39 specifically, does it just toggle a syslog logging level and where then should I look for output, eg if I ran "PmLogCtl set LunaSysMgrJS debug" Apr 08 05:56:07 lingfish: /var/log/messages Apr 08 05:57:51 rwhitby: yeah, just discovered that... I think we've picked the wrong context... not getting a lot from LunaSysMgrJS Apr 08 05:58:17 Not a whole lot on the dbus that's relevant either. Apr 08 06:35:44 phil_bw: you're leaving/joining! :) Apr 08 06:36:12 whooo Apr 08 06:36:17 phil_bw: whoooo Apr 08 06:36:28 auto joined but got too many cards open Apr 08 06:36:36 can't sleep, on wirc Apr 08 06:37:16 anyhow, with my lack of sleep I decided to install abiword Apr 08 06:37:39 all I can say to that is *screw* openoffice Apr 08 06:38:23 it runs sooo smooth on the Pre. opened my same test doc and apart from the chart not loading up it worked very well. Apr 08 06:39:16 phil_bw: TOLD YOU :) Apr 08 06:39:24 phil_bw: ...I had to say it ;) Apr 08 06:39:24 abiword on the pre? Apr 08 06:39:37 RagingMind: believe it! :) Apr 08 06:39:39 told me? you sure it was me? Apr 08 06:40:06 with a pre interface or is this with the little x server? Apr 08 06:40:26 I honestly didn't know abiword did doc files. I thought it was it's own word processor (native format% Apr 08 06:40:28 phil_bw: yes, you wanted openoffice, i said that sounds expensive particularly with the way debian has it loading a jre and that abiword was better Apr 08 06:40:35 well performed better Apr 08 06:40:43 I assumed it was for features, name recognition, etc Apr 08 06:40:51 ah Apr 08 06:40:51 phil_bw: so we need to sort out how to do this chroot fs Apr 08 06:41:21 openoffice is definitely for the "wow" factor - no-one will use it by choice ;) Apr 08 06:41:35 I've been rackin my brain. the *easiest* way would be a bandwidth hig Apr 08 06:41:35 (unless in an emergency) Apr 08 06:42:14 yeah, I'm one of few who can say they've run openoffice on their pre Apr 08 06:42:41 *shudders* Apr 08 06:42:47 phil_bw: haha. try KDE next ;) Apr 08 06:43:00 don't tempt me Apr 08 06:43:10 phil_bw: it's just an apt-get away... overnight... :) Apr 08 06:43:14 it's like an addiction Apr 08 06:43:34 bind-fs on Fuse might work. Apr 08 06:43:46 "what totally unorthadox program can I install next on my pre" Apr 08 06:43:48 phil_bw: haha. i stopped at x-forwarding kde from my desktop for shits and gigles Apr 08 06:43:48 how do i download preware to my palmpre Apr 08 06:43:48 ka6sox: does it do symlinks? Apr 08 06:44:04 navygirl: http://install.preware.org/ Apr 08 06:44:48 I cant find the tools on my phone can someone help me Apr 08 06:45:33 rwhitby, looking Apr 08 06:46:04 navygirl: http://install.preware.org/ Apr 08 06:47:15 ka6sox, dtzWill, phil_bw: I'm currently looking at metf Apr 08 06:47:17 metfs Apr 08 06:47:34 * phil_bw googles Apr 08 06:47:51 rwhitby: well the paragraph i've read so far is pretty exciting Apr 08 06:47:58 rwhitby: seems to paraphrase our requirements from before :) Apr 08 06:48:40 it seems to use a tar underlying infrastructure somehow Apr 08 06:49:39 well then Apr 08 06:49:55 if we can make that work I think we've got a winner Apr 08 06:50:22 the only hassle is usb drive mode Apr 08 06:50:46 what about? Apr 08 06:52:05 well, /media/internal (the vfat partition) is unmounted during USB mode Apr 08 06:52:23 controlled by /usr/sbin/storaged Apr 08 06:52:37 which sends USR1 and USR2 signals to the cryptofs process Apr 08 06:52:47 two questions: a)how stable is it and b)can we get reasonable performance out of it? tar-based PLUS the encryption layers (coupled with slow flash to begin with) might be an issue Apr 08 06:52:54 maybe that's why this thing never lets me go into usb mode Apr 08 06:53:21 I always leave debain mounted Apr 08 06:53:35 dtzWill: we'd rip the encryption out Apr 08 06:53:40 exactly Apr 08 06:53:46 its written in C Apr 08 06:54:05 it's 800 lines on C Apr 08 06:54:06 16seconds slower than EXT3 on a 1.6GB file is pretty quick. Apr 08 06:54:18 it uses mmap and pread/pwrite Apr 08 06:55:16 ka6sox: oh is that the speed? that is acceptable Apr 08 06:55:21 well this is fabulous news but it's pretty much midnight here so I'm off to bed. er already in it. going to close my eyes now. 'night Apr 08 06:55:30 night phil_bw Apr 08 06:55:44 we'll call it webosinternalsfs Apr 08 06:55:45 * phil_bw wanders off... to sleep Apr 08 06:55:50 nite phil_bw Apr 08 06:57:21 the fact that its dynamic helps us. Apr 08 06:57:36 ka6sox: you mean dynamically sized? yeah, that's _huge_ Apr 08 06:57:51 * dtzWill hopes this works as well as it looks like it might Apr 08 06:57:55 grows *and* contracts based on usage. Apr 08 06:58:01 dtzWill: I've been searching since I mentioned it to you :-) Apr 08 06:58:13 rwhitby: good work, and thanks :). not that you did it for me, but you know :):) Apr 08 06:59:11 the stock kernel supports Fuse? Apr 08 07:02:51 yep, cryptofs uses it Apr 08 07:02:58 oh right Apr 08 07:04:35 with the encryption stuff torn out this should be really fast. Apr 08 07:05:24 Pretty sure cryptofs is only used in the event of usb mounts Apr 08 07:08:14 chrisa: cryptofs runs continuously, and receives the USR1 and USR2 signals to tell it to stop and start accessing the underlying /media/internal/.palm filesystem while USB mode is active Apr 08 07:09:02 ah, gotcha Apr 08 07:09:11 I hadn't looked at the final impl, my mistake Apr 08 07:10:18 hopefully there's a dbus service we can subscribe to so we can do the same Apr 08 07:10:35 otherwise we'll have to wrap pkill or cryptofs and intercept the signals and tee them Apr 08 07:10:53 (which would be far less convenient) Apr 08 07:11:49 looks like this FS supports symlinks Apr 08 07:13:32 com.palm.storage to the rescue Apr 08 07:21:47 ok, I'm removing the encryption code from metfs now Apr 08 07:27:41 ok, metfs is no good Apr 08 07:27:48 rwhitby: oh no! why not? Apr 08 07:28:01 basically, it does the following: Apr 08 07:29:13 while mounted, it untars a tarball into a real filesystem, and relies on the semantics of the filesystem in which it is extracted Apr 08 07:29:29 then when unmounted, it tars it back up again, and wipes the working area Apr 08 07:29:58 rwhitby: why would it need fuse to do any of that? :/ Apr 08 07:30:43 so basically, it's a dead end Apr 08 07:31:30 I wonder if we can modify cyptofs so that instead of encrypting a file, it just stores the file meta-data and then the file contents Apr 08 07:31:48 or maybe just puts the meta-data in a separate place Apr 08 07:32:18 then if sematics that are not supported by VFAT are accessed, you look in the separate place Apr 08 07:32:33 but for normal file access, it's just a vfat filesystem underlying Apr 08 07:33:14 then for editing plain files in the chroot, you can just access them via vfat Apr 08 07:33:37 but when accessed through the fuse mount, it supports symlinks and permissions Apr 08 07:34:05 * rwhitby removes the metfs untar, and untars cryptofs instead Apr 08 07:34:16 rwhitby: that sounds possible, but basically you're saying "how about we write our own filesystem FUSE driver to do what we want" Apr 08 07:34:19 :) Apr 08 07:34:27 maybe we can get palm to accept our patch ... Apr 08 07:57:10 oh, if we call our process cryptofs too, then we'll get the USR1 and USR2 signals at the same time as the real one ;) Apr 08 09:14:52 mh, "notification repeat"-patch for messaging is broken since preware 0.9.33 Apr 08 09:53:34 hucksy: patches are unrelated to Preware versions Apr 08 09:54:05 hucksy: a patch is a self-contained item - Preware treats them no different to any other package Preware installs Apr 08 09:54:43 sbromwich: seems your kernel post got the attention of some people Apr 08 09:58:00 rwhitby: ok, then ists the patch itself Apr 08 09:59:05 hucksy: yep, it's either the patch, or an aupt bug, or a conflict with another patch or manual modification Apr 08 10:32:14 hrm, posted this in #webos without joy: Apr 08 10:32:14 < lingfish> Ok, stupid question time. I'm having an issue with the FB beta app -- it won't download, after I had removed it. I'm thinking the Apr 08 10:32:17 next step is a "Erase Apps & Data", but I cannot find a definitive list of what is lost and what isn't. Apr 08 10:32:20 < lingfish> I get that all apps (official) come back... but what about 3rd party app data... and what about SMS's etc? Apr 08 10:32:24 < lingfish> In short, what are all the gotchas when doing a Erase Apps & Data? Apr 08 10:36:45 rwhitby: ok thanks, i have to check the logs whats going wrong Apr 08 10:37:11 lingfish: Save/Restore :) Apr 08 10:37:23 ? Apr 08 10:37:36 rwhitby: this your latest concoction? ;) Apr 08 10:42:50 hi Apr 08 10:43:02 how many of you are coming from the zaurus? Apr 08 10:43:17 rwhitby: ok... so basically it only does 3rd party app stuff.... still doesn't answer the other bits.... ie what will I lose exactly by doing the above etc... Apr 08 10:45:50 oh, you'll lose everything :) Apr 08 10:46:26 it will delete /var and /media/internal/.palm (which is the underlying storage for /media/cryptofs/apps) Apr 08 10:48:18 right... but then restore brings apps back etc, I get that... what about SMS's, etc? Apr 08 11:00:55 nothing brings SMS's back Apr 08 11:01:02 Save/Restore only exports them Apr 08 11:01:37 rwhitby: is there a chance that save/restore will support restore of messaging-data in the future? Apr 08 11:02:08 hucksy: not until Palm adds an API to do so. at the moment, it's just too complex to do safely. Apr 08 11:02:17 rwhitby: heh... not what I'm asking. I'm asking what damage, a thorough list, that a Erase Apps & Data does... Apr 08 11:03:00 lingfish: all that stuff is in /var - you will lose it all Apr 08 11:03:31 As far as I can tell... all apps are torched, and their data... then, most stuff is then restored... but what... apps? yes. Data of those apps? Dunno... and what constitutes "data" :) Apr 08 11:06:09 just apps from app catalog, and some profile data. most things are torched. all third party app data is torched Apr 08 11:06:33 some palm data that you would expect to be saved in the profile is torched Apr 08 11:07:11 k... time for some emu testing then. As I think this is the only fix for my FB beta issue. Apr 08 11:42:54 rwhitby: you'd think palm profile would store the sms/libpurple data :) Apr 08 11:43:16 Lumiere: you'd think so, but I guess they are concerned with privacy issues Apr 08 11:44:37 I am amazed that they're using an sqllite db for the information instead of just logging it to folders and doing some basic text processing to re-display it Apr 08 11:45:26 That's Synergy for you :-) Apr 08 11:46:02 sqlite is fater than doing text processing from files Apr 08 11:46:12 s/fater/faster/ Apr 08 11:46:13 en0x meant: sqlite is faster than doing text processing from files Apr 08 11:47:00 folks Apr 08 11:47:19 * bhuey thinks that the GC system is more screwy than it was before in 1.3.5 Apr 08 11:47:22 bah Apr 08 11:47:36 i find it better Apr 08 11:47:52 better in some ways, worse in others Apr 08 11:48:12 I'm getting weird leaks that are more recoverable, but they happen at a quicker rate Apr 08 11:48:20 don't know what's causing it Apr 08 11:48:29 en0x: it may be faster, but is the speed difference really enough to justify the obsfuscation of the data and the difficulty of moving it? Apr 08 11:49:59 Lumiere: well, Palm has no reason to make accessing the data easy for us Apr 08 11:50:03 come on man... text files to store all the info? it's so 70s Apr 08 11:50:30 I wasn't even alive in the 70s and it'd be my preference Apr 08 11:50:40 Lumiere: and don't worry if palm is teaming up with some company they will give them all the info to get the data from database Apr 08 11:50:56 well I'm Mr Bleeding Popular today, ain't I? Apr 08 11:51:31 also: do they teach literacy in schools these days any more? Apr 08 11:52:26 sbromwich: they try Apr 08 11:52:48 sbromwich: but they're forced to teach so many different things that there's no focus to learning (at least in the US) Apr 08 11:53:02 that and they teach to tests and not for people to learn Apr 08 11:53:15 sbromwich: I'm hoping the discussion can get back to technical in that thread. Apr 08 11:53:20 Lumiere: I've had a pre now for... 2 weeks? and I'm managing just ducky. Apr 08 11:53:21 me too. Apr 08 11:53:38 hopefully the diff and kernel config will get people actually thinking Apr 08 11:54:07 I just lurk on precentral at this point Apr 08 11:54:39 public forums tend to become cess pools of idioticness with some gems Apr 08 11:54:56 so read what you think will help and ignore people who don't Apr 08 11:55:34 I definitely want to hold the ground of keeping the distinction between pure technical experimentation, and things that are packaged for end-user installation Apr 08 11:55:39 I'm just posting up useful stuff for other hackers on the sub-forum that specifically mentions it is for, amongst others, hackers Apr 08 11:55:50 rwhitby: definitely. Apr 08 11:56:21 Perhaps I should update my profile to say "I am a nasty sysadmin and not your mother" or something similar. Apr 08 11:56:31 I'd suggest it would almost be better to have a webos-internals hacking forum separate from precentral Apr 08 11:56:47 Lumiere: it's bad enough that I have to use *one* forum ... Apr 08 11:56:51 rwhitby: lol Apr 08 11:57:04 I really can't argue with that Apr 08 11:57:21 we can ask Dieter for a sub-forum area though Apr 08 11:57:30 Low-Level Linux Hacking or something Apr 08 11:57:33 what is a "viral marketing"? Apr 08 11:57:44 en0x: make a youtube video or blog post Apr 08 11:57:50 en0x: that's where a company saves money by getting the customers to do the marketing for them Apr 08 11:57:51 then try to get it to 'go viral' Apr 08 11:57:53 yep Apr 08 11:58:00 oh ok thanks Apr 08 11:58:10 or to get customers to share their marketing all over the place Apr 08 11:58:14 without doin' any work Apr 08 11:58:29 kk got the point Apr 08 11:58:35 it's apparently more cost effective than traditional advertising, so companies are paying big buck to consultants to teach them how to do viral marketing Apr 08 11:59:02 coz i'm reading an article with John on cnn Apr 08 11:59:07 at which point it's not cost effective Apr 08 11:59:09 and he says that they will be going viral Apr 08 11:59:26 sbromwich: BTW, we do have a WebOS Internals sub-forum Apr 08 11:59:27 and viral marketing is totally dependent on being something that people are interested in Apr 08 11:59:52 and people have a level of trust to your company Apr 08 12:00:12 Lumiere: yeah, the big bucks are in making the public trust you when you are not trustworthy Apr 08 12:00:27 rwhitby: we do? Apr 08 12:00:31 is it hidden? Apr 08 12:00:49 http://forums.precentral.net/webos-internals/ Apr 08 12:01:14 I'd love to have lost more technical discussion in there Apr 08 12:01:21 s/lost/lots/ Apr 08 12:01:21 rwhitby meant: I'd love to have lots more technical discussion in there Apr 08 12:01:51 ah I see it nicely hidden at the bottom list Apr 08 12:03:09 sbromwich: just means less people being idiots in your threads ;) Apr 08 12:03:25 wouldn't that be nice? Apr 08 12:08:50 oh this is delicious irony... FOAF is "Senior Director, Core OS" at Palm. Apr 08 12:10:58 oh, and according to his facebook page he likes trailer park boys too Apr 08 12:11:05 rock on. Apr 08 12:11:59 Sr Director... as in Apr 08 12:12:07 Can't Code... but directs people who do? Apr 08 12:13:55 most probably Apr 08 12:14:15 "recently built and ran the iPhone's Bluetooth and WiFi Team from the start of the project to shipping 1.0 (and the first updates)." Apr 08 12:14:15 "Prior to that was involved in prototyping a fully product ready version of Embedded Linux for use in the iPod and other embedded projects at Apple. The iPod Platform Team built a Apr 08 12:14:15 better-ipod-then-ipod running Linux." Apr 08 12:14:35 could be management, could be coder. Apr 08 12:21:52 caj2008: to make it clear, I am not part of the webos-internals team, nor am I advocating anyone use my kernels if they are not skilled enough, and I have trapdoored it enough that getting it to the point of being ready to boot the kernel is itself an IQ test. Apr 08 12:26:59 I have had many reports thinking I am to blame. I will be glad to continue this discussion on gtalk Apr 08 12:27:26 I have no gtalk Apr 08 12:27:50 caj2008: just tell them to talk to the author of the thing they are using Apr 08 12:28:37 just like I tell people to talk to Jason for WOSQI stuff, and he tells people to talk to me for Preware stuff. Both are installers. Apr 08 12:28:44 or alternatively "if you need to ask you're probably not qualified to run it" Apr 08 12:28:54 stay out of this rod, I saw what you wrote. I have sent Steve a number to reach me (he will be surprised of who complianed Apr 08 12:29:17 caj2008: "saw what I wrote" ? Apr 08 12:29:27 caj2008: unless it was my boss complaining, I really don't care who complained Apr 08 12:29:31 who complained? Apr 08 12:30:58 you keep on telling people wosqi is antiquated. It is a great tool Apr 08 12:31:18 no, I tell people that wosqi is no longer needed to install Preware Alpha. Apr 08 12:31:33 I agree it is a great tool, and say so often on PreCentral Apr 08 12:31:35 No not true Apr 08 12:31:54 Jason even knows this Apr 08 12:32:12 um, Jason and I chat almost every day Apr 08 12:32:20 me too Apr 08 12:32:54 seriously caj2008, I don't understand why you seem to be taking all this so personally Apr 08 12:33:19 it's open source development - people build on the results of others, and then share their results back for the others to build upon again Apr 08 12:33:33 kernel development especially is like that Apr 08 12:33:37 BTW-how did I know of the update the day before to warn people and how did I know OS1.4.1.1. had been tested for a month by Palm Apr 08 12:34:16 excellent, I'm glad Palm has many interactions with wide ranging parts of the homebrew community Apr 08 12:34:22 steve please call and I can explain more Apr 08 12:35:22 I love open source and whoheartedly endorse it but everything should be done with safety of new users in mind Apr 08 12:35:46 caj2008: agreed. will you be interested in leading the testing of the output of these new kernel developments when they are ready for that stage? Apr 08 12:36:17 caj2008: I don't do phones. Apr 08 12:36:42 your loss....complaint was from a Palm guy Apr 08 12:36:51 Chuq or Brian? Apr 08 12:37:05 no comment Apr 08 12:37:09 or Chris? Apr 08 12:37:41 too bad you are afraid of the phone Apr 08 12:37:55 caj2008: what part don't you understand about me not caring about anyone else's phones but my own? Apr 08 12:38:14 caj2008: I have certain disabilities that make it suboptimal for me, I apologise for that. Apr 08 12:38:24 sounds like a holocaust to me Apr 08 12:38:44 caj2008 I am offended by that comment Apr 08 12:38:57 I am polish and lost much of my extended family in concentration camps. Apr 08 12:39:09 have a phone die is *not* anywhere near as bad. Apr 08 12:39:22 you said you only care about your phone anot others. I deliberately frakk my phone to help others..knowledge to help Apr 08 12:39:34 yes. Apr 08 12:39:41 I also posted that other users do it at their own risk. Apr 08 12:39:43 repeatedly. Apr 08 12:40:06 caj2008: yep, that's the two prongs that I've been referring too - leading edge experimentation in a developers forum, and testing and packaging for end-users in a end-user forum Apr 08 12:40:13 Do you know I bough an oven to find out thermal liability of these devices. They are safe up to 50C so far Apr 08 12:40:35 I have four phones I test Apr 08 12:40:57 caj2008: there's no question that you are going to incredible efforts to support the deployment of finished products to end-users Apr 08 12:41:07 caj2008: I don't understand though how that is releated to this thread Apr 08 12:41:10 sbromwich: polish? oh Apr 08 12:41:13 I write easy to use instructions but still take the time help new users Apr 08 12:41:25 en0x: on my mother's side... I'm a grzywna Apr 08 12:41:30 caj2008: and do a great job I must say Apr 08 12:41:32 sbromwich: czesc ;D Apr 08 12:41:48 nice to meet someone from the right side of the world ;-) Apr 08 12:41:54 caj2008: I still don't understand how that relates to open technical discussion thread Apr 08 12:42:01 hehe :) Apr 08 12:42:09 I just wanted a few days of testing before it was publically downloaded thats all Apr 08 12:42:24 it's not in a publicly downloadable form Apr 08 12:42:37 it's not in an end-user forum Apr 08 12:42:40 it is...that was what the complaint was about Apr 08 12:42:51 caj2008: you do not own the linux kernel. Apr 08 12:42:51 there's no instructions to cut and paste Apr 08 12:43:04 theres enough info there to cause issues Apr 08 12:43:13 if you want to get linus in here to tell me to stop, I'll stop. Apr 08 12:43:22 otherwise you and I are both random arseholes on the internet. Apr 08 12:43:25 linus?? Apr 08 12:43:35 torvalds Apr 08 12:43:38 torvalds Apr 08 12:43:43 he's the person who started writing linux. Apr 08 12:43:46 oh Apr 08 12:44:02 or alan cox, the person who taught me unix, I respect his opinion as well. Apr 08 12:44:16 caj2008: if a script or ipkg had been posted, you would have a valid argument. Apr 08 12:44:19 I was trained on unix Apr 08 12:44:53 I don't know you from adam though, so your level of training is irrelevant to me Apr 08 12:44:53 I am not the only one who feels this way...should be on WIKI page Apr 08 12:45:11 how arraogant Apr 08 12:45:12 I could also bring up how I used to work for USR, 3Com, Novell, mi2g and others but that too has no bearing Apr 08 12:45:14 wiki pages are not for discussions Apr 08 12:45:27 wow I am so impressed Apr 08 12:46:15 I don't think you're getting my point caj2008 Apr 08 12:46:21 let me repeat it again Apr 08 12:46:24 I like open source but I think new users have to be protected more Apr 08 12:46:29 you and I are both random arseholes on the internet. Apr 08 12:46:33 that is my only point Apr 08 12:47:21 FatElvis :-) Apr 08 12:47:40 sbromwich :) Apr 08 12:47:46 ?? Apr 08 12:47:52 I hear you're stirring up a bit of poo. :) Apr 08 12:48:05 no more than usual Apr 08 12:48:26 you like trouble more than I steve Apr 08 12:48:27 at least this time around I'm not likely to get arrested for it Apr 08 12:48:47 neemn arrested in the past? Apr 08 12:48:48 caj2008: I am a hacker of the old school from before the never ending september Apr 08 12:49:01 no, I was never caught. Apr 08 12:49:17 back in the day when I was cracking not hacking Apr 08 12:49:42 Palm was not upset because we were as safe as possible...my take. I only did this to help them Apr 08 12:50:11 I grew up with that comapny and am loyal to them Apr 08 12:50:15 caj2008, you *do* realise that all that needs to be done to get back to original state is take the battery out and the original kernel boots? Apr 08 12:50:32 of course Apr 08 12:50:59 so what exactly is your point? Apr 08 12:51:29 I just wish we all had a common system of a few days of alpha testing before release on the forum to prevent confusion Apr 08 12:51:54 why? Apr 08 12:52:15 I follow the open source standard of release early, release often Apr 08 12:52:18 I spend alot of time helping new users to get interested in palm products...I am biased I grew upm with them Apr 08 12:52:29 this kernel is not intended for end-users to install, so what's the alpha testing for? Apr 08 12:52:57 It was placed where it could be done by new users Apr 08 12:53:06 my only issue Apr 08 12:53:12 in a developer forum. Apr 08 12:53:26 they dont read it like that Apr 08 12:53:33 any user in a developer forum that tries to do dev stuff does it at their own risk. Apr 08 12:53:35 so? Apr 08 12:53:49 you're not getting it, I DON'T CARE ABOUT END USERS Apr 08 12:53:55 I wish it were that simple then I would agree with you Apr 08 12:54:17 I have posted plenty of disclaimers so they are doing it at their own risk. Apr 08 12:54:38 too bad Apr 08 12:55:47 Enogh people gets frakked and they will associate all cpu related programs with it Apr 08 12:56:11 This is what I learned from the eraly days on P/C Apr 08 12:56:11 then maybe they'll learn they'll get burnt if they're not careful about putting their fingers in the fire. Apr 08 12:56:39 took me alog time to get by bad issues not caused by us from the past Apr 08 12:56:55 IMHO: People who get bitten by 'cpu-related programs' and complain afterwards _should_ keep their fingers off exactly those Apr 08 12:57:30 too slow... Apr 08 12:57:37 all the good can be erased in a heartbeat by public opinion Apr 08 12:57:40 * sbromwich is with asmw Apr 08 12:58:41 me myself, I'd been happy enough with patches... I don't like running random kernels of the internet :) Apr 08 12:58:43 yeah, I can also (unless rwhitby fixed the bug I reported already) put up a feed address that just by inputting will wipe the palm Apr 08 12:58:58 does that mean preware alpha should be pulled too? Apr 08 12:59:19 Mobile phone enthusiats are waaaay too trusting running random stuff on their phones anyway Apr 08 12:59:26 asmw: the core patch is in the git tree, check the irc logs for the exact location Apr 08 12:59:34 yeah, I know Apr 08 12:59:36 the necessary extra patches I posted up on the forums Apr 08 12:59:41 I still believe in a short alpha testing protocol Apr 08 12:59:51 asmw: that's why we're going to transparently build kernels for the feed - then you can build your own if you don't trust the ones we build Apr 08 12:59:55 it's a simple diff just to disable the preempt string to dummy the modules Apr 08 13:00:25 That's why I bought a Pre, so I _can_ build my own stuff Apr 08 13:00:28 caj2008: I am not interfering with your beliefs. Apr 08 13:00:44 yeah, asmw, I'm taking the view it's my phone and I'll do what the hell I feel like Apr 08 13:00:49 I believe in a long alpha testing protocol for anything destined for end user installs Apr 08 13:01:03 I have promoted Number1Pete on all threads because he had a testing protocol so I am not a hypocrite Apr 08 13:01:19 * sbromwich doesn't feel the need for any promotion at all Apr 08 13:01:26 I was impressed by the way he cares Apr 08 13:01:27 I am putting this information up for hackers Apr 08 13:01:32 caj2008: BTW, the personal comparisons against other developers are really not appropriate Apr 08 13:01:50 praising number1Pete is fine Apr 08 13:01:54 if end users want to play that's great but as I repeatedly, repeatedly, many times over and over said: if the phone breaks the user's recourse is to keep both pieces. Apr 08 13:02:35 FatElvis do you have this problem in the moto and winmo worlds? Apr 08 13:02:48 caj2008: there is no need to take what is a rational technical discussion and make it personal Apr 08 13:03:40 sbromwich: Not really, but in the WinMo area it's even more "trusting" as you don't have the source to look at. Apr 08 13:03:53 You always seem to make things personal. I have no emotion on this...only logic if you knew me better. I do take issues with newbie insults Apr 08 13:04:07 sbromwich: With the Milestone/Android stuff, well, one guy bricked his phone ON PURPOSE just to further the development. Apr 08 13:04:08 I checked again, the forum title is 'web OS Development', maybe the whole forum should have a disclaimer page on first usage Apr 08 13:04:15 caj2008: what newbie insults? Apr 08 13:04:25 frankly, I think it's a stretch to think that your average end user would get anywhere with what sbromwich posted. Apr 08 13:04:38 caj2008: I talked about two groups of people - kernel developers and end users. the two groups are not mutually exclusive Apr 08 13:04:41 someone already did Apr 08 13:04:48 idw2k|wirc: that's precisely what I have been aiming at Apr 08 13:04:54 why do you think I respeonded Apr 08 13:05:06 caj2008: and please show me one place where I've been personal in that thread Apr 08 13:05:26 caj2008: a user broke their phone? Apr 08 13:05:45 Enough of this. I have said enough...do what you want I am done with this Apr 08 13:05:47 caj2008: (apart from the places where I have genuinely praised your work on the end-user installable items) Apr 08 13:06:01 caj2008: why the emotion? Apr 08 13:06:01 an average end user figured out how to boot a custom kernel from a ramdisk? Apr 08 13:06:42 after putting his phone in dev mode! Apr 08 13:07:00 asmw: could have been a her. Adora runs overclocked Apr 08 13:07:06 I care about Palm surviving and I care that newbies have all the info they can get to make running there phone, gadgets and surfing the web as easy as 12Pre (not to make a pun but it is tru) Apr 08 13:07:09 damn...i must be a below average user, cause I would have to research that and I have some linux experience Apr 08 13:07:12 and JenP runs Preware Alpha Apr 08 13:07:33 caj2008: are you recommending newbies should be running in dev mode? Apr 08 13:07:42 sorry, didn't mean to be rude... Apr 08 13:07:54 asmw: just pulling your leg ;) Apr 08 13:08:05 so a user bricked his/her phone after putting it in dev mode? Apr 08 13:08:07 Preware alpha is no big deal to run and I like the idea very much of removing packaage manager Apr 08 13:08:20 I do think caj2008 's heart is in the right place, fwiw. Apr 08 13:08:46 idw2k|wirc: I agree. the trouble is that he's extending those good intentions into a raw developer area where they are not appropriate Apr 08 13:08:50 but maybe overreacting in this instaance Apr 08 13:08:59 My 11 year old son intsalled the kernel by all methods, that is why I know it is as easy as 12pre Apr 08 13:09:15 those intentions are absolutely required for the items intended for end-user installation Apr 08 13:09:32 but closed development is absolutely abhorrent to kernel developers Apr 08 13:10:02 I just want to see some alpha testing or a WIKI page before that kind of posting, thats all Apr 08 13:10:17 I did alpha testing last night Apr 08 13:10:26 it's a discussion thread - you don't discuss things on a wiki Apr 08 13:10:27 kernel compiles and boots on my phone. Apr 08 13:10:29 end. Apr 08 13:10:44 I hate apple because they are closed source, just want to see safety that's all Apr 08 13:11:08 rwhitby: did you get my PM last night? Apr 08 13:11:11 about preware alpha? Apr 08 13:11:27 VincentLaw: probably, but I've forgotten what you said Apr 08 13:11:38 safety and open source kernel development are mutually exclusive, aren't they? collateral damage is inevitable Apr 08 13:11:41 (it's been a long day at work) Apr 08 13:11:42 [09:54:51] Upon updating multiple packages at once, and getting a "Luna Restart Required" message, in that popup, it says: Apr 08 13:11:42 [09:54:54] "Packages Installed:" Apr 08 13:11:42 [09:55:08] I imagine it's supposed to actually say the packages that were installed, but it doesn't. Apr 08 13:12:31 no they arent. I uses testers other than myself from all walks of life during a short trial then open it up to the public...doesnt take very long at all Apr 08 13:12:48 idw2k|wirc: it needn't be like that for the end user Apr 08 13:13:09 idw2k|wirc: but end-users MUST NOT put anything into dev mode or lurk in dev forums. Apr 08 13:13:13 my last message was for idw2kl Apr 08 13:13:16 caj2008: I don't accept that end-users on PreCentral that use things that are not marked as appropriate for end-user installation should be able to push technical kernel development discussion away from PreCentral Apr 08 13:13:27 asmw: : exactly Apr 08 13:13:35 rwhitby ++ Apr 08 13:13:45 wait, whats the big news going on now? Apr 08 13:13:59 Palm will die by these mighty hands Apr 08 13:14:04 yours Apr 08 13:14:20 VincentLaw: http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html Apr 08 13:14:24 holy hyperbole, batman Apr 08 13:14:26 I promote palm wherever I can Apr 08 13:14:44 and I would not teach my gf to overclock hers :) Apr 08 13:14:53 I know personally Palm appreciates good safety Apr 08 13:14:57 caj2008: the effect of the 1000 or so PreCentral device users is irrelevant to Palm's market success Apr 08 13:15:02 caj2008: then I will talk to my friend at novell who bought suse to see if he wants to buy palm as well Apr 08 13:15:24 Wow steve you are so powerful Apr 08 13:15:24 even the effect of the 200,000 Preware users is not important Apr 08 13:15:42 * rwhitby bbiab (kids to bed) Apr 08 13:15:57 I have already asked him to get some of his kernel developers to look into getting -rt running on the pre. Apr 08 13:16:35 and again, I am doing this *for myself*, and anyone else who finds it useful and gets it to work is just plain lucky Apr 08 13:16:57 no issue with the ends just the means Apr 08 13:17:23 then we shall agree to disagree. Apr 08 13:17:49 Nothing more makes me happy is toos ee new cpu and other tools available by all developers to public with provision they are safe enough Apr 08 13:18:41 we agree on that. good thing this thread was not about providing things to the public Apr 08 13:19:05 every person on this earth effects another in small way and the sum of the parts has a lasting effect on the whole Apr 08 13:19:35 yep, and all of this is just ones and zeros Apr 08 13:19:54 Gates said that too Apr 08 13:20:00 I still don't get how posting an awesome piece of software in a developer forum hurts anybody... Apr 08 13:20:16 it is pubically available, thats all Apr 08 13:20:18 asmw: apparently it will be the death of Palm Apr 08 13:20:47 Rod that is beneath you. My point was clear Apr 08 13:20:53 caj2008: and will continue to remain so, in a form that cannot be used by the average end user Apr 08 13:21:19 an average user already has Apr 08 13:21:24 caj2008: my point is that you need to have some perspective Apr 08 13:21:27 and failed Apr 08 13:21:36 caj2008: anyone who logs into PreCentral is already not an average user Apr 08 13:21:41 The bonus side effect is that perhaps, just maybe, some "average end user" will actually learn something, even if they fail. :) Apr 08 13:22:08 FatElvis: bricking is not learning, it is losing a piece of equipment. Apr 08 13:22:12 * nt4cats wishes that irc had a scrollback feature so you could see what the discussion was 2 minutes before you logged in Apr 08 13:22:19 Frakking is nothing to promote, all the kernels can do in worst case is a reversible feeze (remeber my first thread Apr 08 13:22:30 nt4cats: that's why we have public logs of this channel Apr 08 13:22:39 sorry, an average user wouldn't even understand steve's post, much less be able to implment it Apr 08 13:22:41 EdLin: I disagree. For one thing, you'll quickly learn how to un-brick. Apr 08 13:22:41 nt4cats: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt Apr 08 13:22:44 rwhitby: yes, but those aren't 'live' are they? Apr 08 13:22:48 it is amazing how little people read Apr 08 13:22:52 nt4cats: absolutely they are Apr 08 13:22:52 take a look at the bottom nt4cats Apr 08 13:23:09 you have a wildly inaccurate idea of what an"average user" is Apr 08 13:23:13 btw, I 100% agree with rwhitby in that thread. The mere fact that the average user will find it impossible to install the kernel in the first place, combined with the warnings and the location of the thread, is more than enough protections Apr 08 13:23:30 if a user STILL messes up their device, that is their own fault and their own responsibility. Apr 08 13:23:41 yeah, I'd agree with that much. Apr 08 13:23:49 oh so how did a new user already have a problem then?? Apr 08 13:23:57 [09:23:17] if a user STILL messes up their device, that is their own fault and their own responsibility. Apr 08 13:24:04 woke me up from a sound sleep Apr 08 13:24:05 wow, I broke one of Tony's (my Dad's) Golden Rules: #1) Assume Nothing Apr 08 13:24:34 "never underestimate the cleverness of fools?" :-) Apr 08 13:24:37 the phenomenon of users with just enough knowledge to get themselves in trouble cannot be prevented Apr 08 13:25:02 its not a matter of underestimating what newbie users are going to do. its a matter of they were /warned/ thoroughly. Apr 08 13:25:06 I have tried my best to help, thats all I can do Apr 08 13:25:11 nt4cats: see also: sturgeon's law Apr 08 13:25:21 rwhitby: I browse the channel logs from previous days somewhat regularly ... I never noticed the live one. Apr 08 13:27:26 VincentLaw: agreed...as long as users are warned adequately, it's fair game. messing with something you don't really understand and getting burned is something we all have experienced at some point Apr 08 13:27:37 * VincentLaw wonders if there is some other underlying reason caj2008 is /really/ annoyed about here Apr 08 13:27:45 seems to me he has other motivations for his anger Apr 08 13:27:56 VincentLaw: I believe caj2008's motives are true Apr 08 13:28:00 and hopefully emerged from the experience wiser for it Apr 08 13:28:27 VincentLaw: he has invested a lot of time into making the current round of overclocking packages safe for end-users, and I hope he will do the same for the next round Apr 08 13:28:45 I am not one with an agenda and resent the implication Apr 08 13:29:02 if it is safety then I am guilty Apr 08 13:29:16 no need to be so defense Apr 08 13:29:19 *defensive Apr 08 13:29:21 Someone (sbromwich) once told me briefly (and correctly) how to install linux along-side of Windows 98. I broke my machine terribly. I was a total newbie. That pretty much started my path to non-newbie. I didn't hold that person responsible for my own failings. Apr 08 13:29:29 speaking of safe overclocking, what would you say would be the average lifespan reduction (because there is one due to overvoltage) of the overclocking to 720 or 800MHz? Managable? Apr 08 13:29:34 safety for end-user installable items is not in question here. Apr 08 13:29:53 EdLin: based on some tech specs, the life expectancy of the chip at 800mhz is ~5 years Apr 08 13:29:56 as opposed to 10+ Apr 08 13:30:04 I have found undervoltage to be equally if not more damaging Apr 08 13:30:26 EdLin: 500MHz to 600Mhz is 100K hours to 50K hours for 0.08v increase. 600MHz to 720Mhz (no voltage increase) reduces it to 44K hours. Apr 08 13:30:29 ]5 years is a long time Apr 08 13:30:34 idw2k|wirc: I recall reading a little blurb in a business mag about the someone asking Jack Welch or Warren Buffet how they're able to do so well, and [business magnate] said 'I dont' make mistakes'. The person then asked [magnate] 'How is it that you are able to not make mistakes?' The Magnate replied 'Well, I learned by making a lot of mistakes.'" Apr 08 13:30:46 720MHz to 800MHz is another 0.07v increase - you do the math. Apr 08 13:31:29 but those are guaranteed figures, so individual devices are likely to exceed Apr 08 13:31:50 I did and apllied a complex algorithm, theleifetime is longer than the average user will ever use the phone before upgrading. Apr 08 13:31:51 you may even be lucky and get a 800MHz specced part due to inventory shortages of lower-specced parts Apr 08 13:32:04 caj2008: I used my Treo 650 for 6 years Apr 08 13:32:10 rwhitby: and since it voids the warrenty, will doctoring erase most of the proof of the changes you've made? Apr 08 13:32:20 you should state "the average US subsidised phone user" Apr 08 13:32:27 I run four phones and each one behaves the same. Several have problems when undervolted to 125MHz Apr 08 13:32:35 * nt4cats has never used a phone for more than 2 years Apr 08 13:32:43 me either Apr 08 13:33:01 I used my Centro for about a year, thanks to Sprint's Premier program. Apr 08 13:33:12 EdLin: if you can doctor the phone, it will erase any evidence of software modifications Apr 08 13:33:22 I get an upgrad free every year too Apr 08 13:33:33 Sprint thing Apr 08 13:33:35 I've never had a phone last for more than a year. they either break or get stolen Apr 08 13:33:38 I'll probably get the EVO when it comes out this year. relegate my pre to develop-only status Apr 08 13:33:39 * nt4cats is hoping there is a new webOS device for my next upgrade announced sometime before June Apr 08 13:33:46 rwhitby: other than the scorch marks, no physical evidence either, eh? ;-) Apr 08 13:33:49 me too Apr 08 13:34:05 I'll be itching to upgrade in June. If there is a webOS device on the horizon I'll wait. If not, I'll probably EVO Apr 08 13:34:22 how the spring premier thing works... if you are qualified to upgrade your phone every year does it extends your contract to? Apr 08 13:34:23 EdLin: however, since Palm gets an upload from your Pre daily, there's likely to be something in there which gives it away Apr 08 13:34:23 I put my phones in an oven at 45C running background apps and they held up just fine Apr 08 13:34:33 caj2008: did you freeze spray them after? Apr 08 13:34:44 en0x: yes. Apr 08 13:34:51 nah...intersting Apr 08 13:34:52 en0x: another 2 years Apr 08 13:34:57 EdLin: oh that sucks :( Apr 08 13:34:58 EdLin: e.g. the presence of an overclocking control app like CpuScaler is known by Palm on each device on which it is installed Apr 08 13:35:18 they are working on this I am told Apr 08 13:35:23 caj2008: to be fair, the issue is the temp on the die, not necessarily the ambient pre temp Apr 08 13:35:28 EdLin: Palm even knows how often you run it, and every time you start and stop it Apr 08 13:35:39 I measure internal temp Apr 08 13:35:54 caj2008: internal die temp, or temp internal to the battery? Apr 08 13:36:04 die Apr 08 13:36:07 I'm kind of hopeing that Palm's overclocking patent will come to fruition in an official update. Apr 08 13:36:20 that was a joke Apr 08 13:36:29 they are really working on it though Apr 08 13:36:48 dont need to support kernels much longer Apr 08 13:37:05 caj2008: if you are testing for thermal stress you need to heat then freeze spray Apr 08 13:37:17 caj2008: so you've published how you access the internal die temperature openly then? Apr 08 13:37:22 viz spiral death syndrome on the old sportster modems Apr 08 13:37:35 lack of funds..but will do so in the future Apr 08 13:37:44 sbromwich: you're dating yourself there. Apr 08 13:37:54 we are all old here Apr 08 13:38:00 caj2008: or are you topping the chips and somehow keeping the memory attached? Apr 08 13:38:05 * EdLin is 40, he is ancient Apr 08 13:38:05 caj2008: I take offense to that >.> Apr 08 13:38:15 sorry lol Apr 08 13:38:20 don't you know that assumptions make an ass out of u and mptions? Apr 08 13:38:22 EdLin: youngster Apr 08 13:38:29 EdLin: that's right, rub it in ;-) Apr 08 13:38:40 this is getting funny Apr 08 13:38:43 edlin: you irc handle is a hint at your age Apr 08 13:38:57 I am old I admit it Apr 08 13:39:02 * nt4cats wore his "OS/2 - Programmer's Productivity Platform" t-shirt to work yesterday Apr 08 13:39:10 my son is 11 do the math Apr 08 13:39:16 caj2008: and I thought "2008" was your birth year.... Apr 08 13:39:27 caj2008: seriously, are you measuring internal die temp, or just the internal battery temp or PMIC temp sensor? Apr 08 13:39:28 I wish, year I joined Apr 08 13:39:30 am I older than EdLin now? Apr 08 13:39:38 that old?? Apr 08 13:39:58 ttyl Apr 08 13:40:04 I wish I had Palm Pres to put linux on when I was 11... That's gonna be one hacker one day Apr 08 13:40:12 I should have used the nick ED.COM or DOS3.2.1, but nobody would have gotten those at all. Apr 08 13:40:20 ok, I'm assuming internal battery temp based on the non-answer Apr 08 13:40:22 * sbromwich is wearing is brainshare presenter's shirt from 2000 Apr 08 13:40:42 EdLin: or CPM Apr 08 13:40:51 rwhitby: the internal battery temp is REALLY CLOSE to the cpu! really! :p Apr 08 13:41:08 * rwhitby thinks I used wordstar to edit on CPM on Z80 Apr 08 13:41:24 rwhitby: PIP, leave it to digital research to copy the world's most user-hostile way to copy a file from RSX-11. Apr 08 13:41:31 me too, rwhitby Apr 08 13:42:08 my first editor was notepad/wordpad back on Win 3.1 + Tabworks. *sigh* Apr 08 13:42:14 same device I soldered my first memory upgrade onto Apr 08 13:42:16 I still remember when I nuked a WordStar disk by putting source and destination backwards. Apr 08 13:42:28 or frontwards, actually Apr 08 13:43:22 you guys really are old...the first "hacking" I did was trashing a days worth of my dad's work on a lotus 1 2 3 spreadsheet cause I wanted to play Reader Rabbit on our XT Apr 08 13:43:28 * nt4cats just checked -- FreeDOS comes with edlin ;) Apr 08 13:44:58 MS-DOS 5.0 was probably Microsoft's best engineered operating system anyway, of course, that's because it did nothing but object loading, but they finally got rid of DOS 4's bugs and DOS 2-3's limitations at once. Apr 08 13:45:20 drdos was my favourite Apr 08 13:45:33 639k free low memory, boy was I proud Apr 08 13:45:40 drdos had some compatibility problems, but I do admit I rooted for Digital Research. Apr 08 13:45:54 oh yeah, that was microsoft buggering about with windows code against it though Apr 08 13:46:15 "Windows isn't done until Lotus doesn't run" Apr 08 13:46:31 heh Apr 08 13:47:21 last time I irced while on an interstate was 10 years ago, and involved tethering my sanyo 5300 to a laptop Apr 08 13:47:28 wirc is much more convenient Apr 08 13:47:46 zsoc_wirc: if you're driving, let me know so I use a different route. Apr 08 13:47:53 I remember someone at one of the tech magazines ran Win 3.1 in a debugger and found a code segment that was loaded as a dynamic overlay, decrypted, and then exexuted that basically said "if detect_os() == "DR Dos" then print "Illegal Register Operation in {other B.S. cooked-up techincal crap}"" Apr 08 13:47:53 * phil_bw wakes up and wanders by Apr 08 13:48:39 phil_bw: thanks again for the hosting :-) Apr 08 13:48:56 sbromwich: no problem Apr 08 13:48:59 nt4cats: Microsoft played dirty, that's for sure. Apr 08 13:49:25 still do really. Apr 08 13:49:44 though since billg left, they're somewhat kinder and gentler. Apr 08 13:49:54 phil_bw: out of curiosity can you see from the logs how many downloaded the kernel vs how many watch the video? Apr 08 13:50:00 also sprint navigation works ridiculously well while mutitasking Apr 08 13:50:12 yeah but everybody does now. back then bill was the wolf among the sheep Apr 08 13:50:23 zsoc_wirc: have they fixed the memory leaks in sprintnav yet? Apr 08 13:50:41 EdLin: well I'm running wirc and texting and on sprint nav Apr 08 13:50:53 zsoc_wirc: ... and driving ? Apr 08 13:50:54 zsoc_wirc: do that for an hour and let me know if it still works Apr 08 13:50:55 sbromwich: I'm not entirely sure, I know my host has some sort of logging but I'm not sure if it's on or how to access it. I use different logging for my sites. Apr 08 13:51:06 so far so good, but I'm on 800mhz Apr 08 13:51:23 one annoyance for me in sprint nav is you can't copy any text in it. especially annoying when you bookmark a place you don't know, and it tells you the address but won't let you copy it out Apr 08 13:51:38 phil_bw: OK np, I was just mildly curious Apr 08 13:51:54 nt4cats: of course I'm not driving :p Apr 08 13:52:01 sbromwich: I'll proke around when I get to work Apr 08 13:52:12 the miracle isn't the multitasking webos is doing, it's the multitasking zsoc is doing if he's driving. Apr 08 13:52:25 ha Apr 08 13:52:29 translation: <+zsoc_wirc> nt4cats: of course I'm not driving :p .... I already crashed! Apr 08 13:52:34 that would literally be impossible Apr 08 13:53:11 zsoc_wirc: okay, I feel better. I used to be a serial "CrackBerry while highway driving" guy, I'm lucky I didn't kill myself or someone else (I'm a bit wiser now) Apr 08 13:53:17 I kind of want to turn pandora on, but that's just asking for a luna restart Apr 08 13:53:51 * nt4cats does Pandora + Sprint Nav all the time Apr 08 13:54:01 as do I Apr 08 13:54:05 I frequently run pandora, navigation and several messenger conversations at once Apr 08 13:54:11 in fact, that's the most common usage for when sprint nav is up. it + pandora Apr 08 13:54:34 * phil_bw wanders off to work Apr 08 13:55:01 I find the best way visually for sprint nav + pandora is to leave sprint nav up, and then tap the pandora notification so that it expands. it'll stay that way, and gives you most of the pandora controls on the sprint nav screen, for easy no-looking access Apr 08 13:55:02 it kills the battery, though Apr 08 13:55:07 oh thats for sure Apr 08 13:55:10 it overheats my pre Apr 08 13:55:23 oh, one other random fact for the hackers, running the phone at 800mhz with high cpu usage will drain the battery faster than 500mA port can charge it Apr 08 13:55:27 sometimes it will drain even sitting on the touchstone Apr 08 13:55:29 the battery stops charging when I have sprint nav + pandora running for longer than about ~30 min Apr 08 13:55:37 it has to do with heat Apr 08 13:56:12 VincentLaw: are you using ondemand frequency scaling? Apr 08 13:56:20 no Apr 08 13:56:30 standard kernel? Apr 08 13:56:30 it happened on 500mhz, and also happens on 800mhz Apr 08 13:56:51 yeah, the 500mhz was stock Apr 08 13:57:08 if you get cpu frequency running with one of the enabled kernels and start incrementing powersave_bias that should clock things to keep it cool Apr 08 13:57:28 but will that cause pandora to stutter or sprint nav to die? Apr 08 13:57:55 mmmm... possibly Apr 08 13:58:12 it's a tuning thing to play with until you hit the sweet spot for your workload Apr 08 13:58:20 I think I'd rather take my pre off the incar touchstone and blast the AC on it for a minute instead :p Apr 08 13:58:27 reducing up_threshold will make it ramp up quicker Apr 08 13:58:32 that's the other option ;-) Apr 08 13:58:59 I'm just not confident enough in playing with the kernel outside of the easy-peasy 800mhz patch Apr 08 13:59:17 aka I'm the sort that read your thread about the custom kernel and said "over my head" :p Apr 08 13:59:44 VincentLaw: then you are intelligent enough to know your limits and I commend you for being careful Apr 08 13:59:47 I get the geek-driven interest in overclocking, but (speaking for myself only), with 1.4.1.1 the Pre is 'fast enough' for me, so I don't have much incentive to having to deal with any of the caveats associated with overclocking Apr 08 13:59:54 if only everyone else were like you and RTFA :-/ Apr 08 14:00:24 I like the 800mhz patch because, besides the life expectency, there are no caveats. Apr 08 14:00:51 i don't see much speed boost between stocked 1.4.1.1 and 720mhz Apr 08 14:00:55 stupidly simple to install with the ipkg/.sh script, minor hit to battery life, no major heat Apr 08 14:01:11 it's my belief that 800MHz with frequency scaling will (a) extend the battery life and (b) depending on workload extend the CPU life Apr 08 14:01:12 I know there's a difference with 800mhz. it is most noticible in web browsing. Apr 08 14:01:19 VincentLaw: I'm terming 'life expectency' one of the caveats ;) Apr 08 14:01:19 *nod* Apr 08 14:01:30 the problem is that idiots don't read... regardless of caveats :) Apr 08 14:01:40 nt4cats: yeah I don't mind as long as it doesnt die in the next 3 months :p Apr 08 14:01:51 but let the idiots stand in line at a repair shop Apr 08 14:01:53 the single biggest boost to reduce latency that I found was disabling syslogging Apr 08 14:01:58 and pay $750 for the replacement Apr 08 14:01:59 or whenever the EVo comes out Apr 08 14:02:03 that's what makes a lot of things jerky Apr 08 14:02:14 VincentLaw: well, I'll probably give this Pre to my wife, so I'm happy to have it live for another 18 months or so Apr 08 14:02:17 besides I have the $7 warranty Apr 08 14:02:45 Lumiere: as long as they're contributing money to boost the economy out of the recession I am happy for the numpties to be doing something useful ;-) Apr 08 14:03:13 800mhz patch does insane things to the Pre as far as benchmarking goes Apr 08 14:03:18 it beats the Nexus One Apr 08 14:03:38 it even beats the ipad in the Google V8 benchmark, haha Apr 08 14:03:53 sbromwich: I like that thought Apr 08 14:04:14 VincentLaw: I got the $7 Total Coverage during the March open enrollment Apr 08 14:04:46 thankfully my repair was warranty covered (resistive screen failure) Apr 08 14:05:00 VincentLaw: have you got a link to that test? I'd like to try my kernel on it Apr 08 14:05:58 it's frightening to think how webOS will perform on next generation hardware Apr 08 14:06:04 I can't believe I let the open enrollment pass without signing up. Not very smart (some may call it quite dumb) Apr 08 14:06:14 it wasn't *advertised* Apr 08 14:06:18 sbromwich: uhm sure, but a google of "google v8" should take you to it :p Apr 08 14:06:19 I think it will blow Android out of the water Apr 08 14:06:27 Lumiere: I knew about it, though. I kept putting it off Apr 08 14:06:29 ah Apr 08 14:06:38 http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2010/04/ipad-review.ars/17 this is the Ars review page with the iPad scores, FYI Apr 08 14:06:43 VincentLaw you are making me do some work? How... awful of you ;-) Apr 08 14:06:44 I only did it cause I had to drive to pentagon city to get the replacement done Apr 08 14:06:45 if you want to compare :p Apr 08 14:06:50 Lumiere: .. and I probably could have just dialed *2 on my phone any time to add it Apr 08 14:06:55 lol Apr 08 14:07:04 http://v8.googlecode.com/svn/data/benchmarks/v3/run.html there geez, so needy Apr 08 14:07:04 :p Apr 08 14:07:09 ... but I had this idea in my head I would stop into the Sprint store near my office ... Apr 08 14:07:25 I really wish that webos had hardware that would do hd video and zoom Apr 08 14:08:15 I just want autofocus camera :/ Apr 08 14:08:29 current camera is useless for closeup pics, like for barcodes Apr 08 14:08:31 *grin* Apr 08 14:08:32 yea Apr 08 14:08:35 autofocus would be nice Apr 08 14:08:39 poking my way through now Apr 08 14:08:40 sbromwich: what did you score ;) Apr 08 14:08:53 69 Apr 08 14:08:55 I want real optics too Apr 08 14:08:59 oh thats not that good >.> Apr 08 14:09:15 I just got 112 Apr 08 14:09:35 I got a 96.8 Apr 08 14:09:43 it averages in the mid 90's for 800mhz Apr 08 14:09:49 that's frequency scaling and powersave_bias in effect ;-) Apr 08 14:10:39 there needs to be a "benchmarking_detector" daemon that informs the CPU to run full tilt, totally throwing the results :D Apr 08 14:10:41 I got 3819 Apr 08 14:10:44 running now locked to 800 Apr 08 14:10:59 oh.. I'm not running the latest benchmark, it would appear Apr 08 14:11:07 nt4cats: for real? Apr 08 14:11:08 no you should be running v3 Apr 08 14:11:12 v5 doesn't work on the pre Apr 08 14:11:16 its the right one for you to use Apr 08 14:11:19 idw2k: on my laptop, yes Apr 08 14:11:36 mm, no, it doesn't Apr 08 14:11:38 how the hell did you manage 3800? Apr 08 14:11:41 I only get 700 on my pc Apr 08 14:11:46 and my desktop is not that old >.> Apr 08 14:12:06 123 Apr 08 14:12:10 nice :p Apr 08 14:12:19 VincentLaw: newest Google Chrome, model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T7700 @ 2.40GHz Apr 08 14:12:41 newest google chrome here as well, Core 2 Duo E8500 @ 4.01ghz Apr 08 14:12:44 92.3 on the second try...oddly large variation Apr 08 14:12:55 slowest was deltablue at 89.7, fastest earleyboyer at 200 Apr 08 14:13:10 VincentLaw: running again ... Apr 08 14:13:18 nt4cats: oh wait, I was looking at the firefox window haha Apr 08 14:13:22 firefox gets 700 Apr 08 14:13:31 chrome on my system gets 7100 Apr 08 14:14:02 I wonder which browser /this/ benchmark favors lawl Apr 08 14:14:12 VincentLaw: that sounds congruent (by the way 'latest' is dangerous, I have Chrome beta 5.0.342.9 for Linux x86_64) Apr 08 14:14:12 har, my netbook scores 62.5 Apr 08 14:14:16 Interesting issue... Any help would be greatly appreciated: I am trying to add a photo uploading account in the photos app on my Pre. When I try to add a Facebook account it rejects my username and password even though it is correct. Any ideas? Apr 08 14:14:27 the 800mhz pre has faster js than my atom 1.66. Apr 08 14:14:34 (in firefox) Apr 08 14:14:36 nt4cats: indeed, I'm running the same though. beta channel Apr 08 14:14:52 actually forgot I was still running the beta, as a matter of fact Apr 08 14:15:29 sbromwich: run it in chrome see what you get. firefox bombs on it apparently Apr 08 14:15:33 bbl Apr 08 14:15:52 I need to get my linux box up and running. it's been collecting dust for three years now Apr 08 14:15:55 TheInvsbleMan: typically that's because your username and password are incorrect. did you use your email address for username? Apr 08 14:16:00 :p Apr 08 14:16:29 VincentLaw: haha, yes of course Apr 08 14:16:35 my facebook works seemless ;] Apr 08 14:16:42 Just did a google search... apparently it's a bug Apr 08 14:16:50 Gonna try the fix reccommended Apr 08 14:16:54 last I remember it had gentoo up and running Apr 08 14:17:07 I had gentoo running on an old celeron 400 HP box Apr 08 14:17:17 hacked together frankenbox Apr 08 14:17:34 though I could never get the video driver to work Apr 08 14:17:35 had a 450W psu hanging out the side because it didn't fit the case Apr 08 14:17:38 It seems that chromium is a teeny bit faster than google-chrome-beta (not surprising, it is 5.0.365.0 -- and I am assuming that the version numbers are 'related' between the two projects) Apr 08 14:18:32 yea Apr 08 14:20:29 VincentLaw: I have a franken laptop -- when the startup I worked for was running out of money (and sadly letting people go) I literally had a stack of 30 laptops on my desk. I took the best parts from each and made myself the box I'm still using today (they let me keep it) Apr 08 14:20:44 hah nice Apr 08 14:21:29 I have a frankendesktop... I built it as a hardcore gaming machine a while back. Now it sits in my closet as a half baked hackintosh Apr 08 14:22:14 to get the 800MHz overclocking to work, when the instructions say I need to power off the machine, is a reboot enough or do I need to do a shutdown and battery pull? Apr 08 14:22:27 reboot is enough Apr 08 14:22:38 log in through novaterm and run shutdown -r now Apr 08 14:22:48 that WFM Apr 08 14:22:49 thought so, cpufreq says it's going 800MHz already. :-) Apr 08 14:22:53 sbromwich: u can use reboot command as well ;] Apr 08 14:22:57 the keyboard shortcut = shutdown -r now FYI Apr 08 14:23:03 en0x: I'm too lazy to use the gui ;-) Apr 08 14:23:13 sbromwich: in a novaterm Apr 08 14:23:16 Erm... the 800Mhz script I have already has reboot built into it Apr 08 14:23:22 I'm too lazy to use novaterm, I have an ssh daemon. :-) Apr 08 14:23:26 Is mine special? Apr 08 14:23:27 orange + sym + r = reboot :p Apr 08 14:23:43 TheInvsbleMan: all of them do... even the ipk Apr 08 14:23:51 VincentLaw: is there a webos internals wikipage that lists all of those Apr 08 14:23:54 There is an ipk now? Apr 08 14:24:12 Lumiere: probably :p Apr 08 14:24:12 TheInvsbleMan: of course :P Apr 08 14:24:13 ah right... yeah force of habit from other falvours of *nix en0x ;-) Apr 08 14:24:13 I knew it was being worked on... But I haven't been able to find it Apr 08 14:24:42 sbromwich: i thing reboot now is an alias to shutdown -r now in all systems... Apr 08 14:24:42 also, TheInvsbleMan, I think you need to reboot again after it auto-reboots for you Apr 08 14:24:48 sbromwich: even solaris has reboot ;D Apr 08 14:25:08 en0x: Any idea where I can find that ipk? And I always reboot afterwards anyways as per the instructions, just to be safe Apr 08 14:25:27 TheInvsbleMan: on the forum Apr 08 14:25:41 for 1.4.1.1? Apr 08 14:25:42 TheInvsbleMan: i'm not gonna do the search for u coz i'm lazy Apr 08 14:25:47 haha ok Apr 08 14:26:08 TheInvsbleMan: there is no specific 1.4.1.1 kernel because the source and patches were not published by palm yet Apr 08 14:26:19 TheInvsbleMan: they still use 800mhz and 720mhz kernel from 1.4.0 Apr 08 14:26:38 Ok cool. Apr 08 14:26:46 I don't think reboot is an alias of shutdown Apr 08 14:26:49 it seems to do more Apr 08 14:26:55 VincentLaw: [; Apr 08 14:26:59 Has it been updated from the original script at all? Or is it essentially the same thing? Apr 08 14:27:05 its a set of 3 programs: halt, reboot, poweroff Apr 08 14:27:11 I found the ipk btw thanks en0x Apr 08 14:27:27 although by default they will call shutdown, they don't always do so, and it can be skipped and force a reboot/halt using -f Apr 08 14:27:39 (read the effing manpage :D) Apr 08 14:28:25 vorpal:~# uname -a Apr 08 14:28:26 AIX vorpal 3 5 0005FC9FD600 Apr 08 14:28:26 vorpal:~# which reboot Apr 08 14:28:26 which: 0652-141 There is no reboot in /usr/bin /etc /usr/sbin /usr/ucb /home/itssab/bin /usr/bin/X11 /sbin .. Apr 08 14:28:26 vorpal:~# Apr 08 14:28:33 not all nixes are created equal ;-) Apr 08 14:28:44 VincentLaw: why read a manpage when somebody can read it for you and give you a command with arguments? :> Apr 08 14:28:50 oh oh ah Apr 08 14:28:57 AIX?! Apr 08 14:29:01 * en0x runs and hides Apr 08 14:29:15 the phux box got turfed a while back so I can't check that Apr 08 14:29:17 mmm Apr 08 14:29:18 * loot- assembles the villagers Apr 08 14:29:20 I work in healthcare Apr 08 14:29:24 * loot- passes out pitch forks and flaming torches Apr 08 14:29:27 GET EM! Apr 08 14:29:48 heh Apr 08 14:29:49 it [~]% uname Apr 08 14:29:49 SunOS Apr 08 14:29:49 it [~]% which reboot Apr 08 14:29:49 /usr/sbin/reboot Apr 08 14:29:51 :) Apr 08 14:30:04 hah en0x your prompt is similar to mine Apr 08 14:30:10 Is anyone here familiar with the bluetooth stack? Apr 08 14:30:20 hehe Apr 08 14:30:25 %[root@bpl-oracle2]%[2]%[~]# uname;which reboot Apr 08 14:30:25 SunOS Apr 08 14:30:25 /usr/sbin/reboot Apr 08 14:30:42 loot-: oh no no no Apr 08 14:30:47 uname && which reboot Apr 08 14:30:48 ;D Apr 08 14:30:51 lol Apr 08 14:31:01 that's how u should use it Apr 08 14:31:01 :p Apr 08 14:31:26 no no i should create a hexidec payload and then eval execute it with tcl Apr 08 14:31:33 haha Apr 08 14:31:36 lol Apr 08 14:32:45 my prompts are sexy too... color coded for production, development, and desktop/misc by red green and blue themes Apr 08 14:32:55 and then the host name appears as a different color based on the current load Apr 08 14:33:16 You guys all see the interview with Rubenstein about the recent buyout rumors? Apr 08 14:33:17 all my sun boxes have lots of login checks too Apr 08 14:33:30 loot-: I misread that as "my parents are sexy" and that just came out all so very wrong. Apr 08 14:33:33 like checking iostat -En and prtdiag's $? Apr 08 14:34:01 lol Apr 08 14:34:02 my aix boxes report root logins to #unix on the irc server I run at the hospital Apr 08 14:34:08 loot-: nice nice nice Apr 08 14:34:17 my freebsd boxes are like that too kinda Apr 08 14:34:19 sbromwich: i have an IDS for that :P Apr 08 14:34:30 loot-: IDS is external Apr 08 14:34:39 no... not really Apr 08 14:34:43 hybrid IDS Apr 08 14:34:46 that sucks in data from ********** Apr 08 14:34:49 not just NIDS Apr 08 14:34:52 I have my systems reporting nagios issues, user adds, root logins, etc to irc Apr 08 14:34:58 it gets syslogs from everything on the entire network Apr 08 14:35:02 v. handy for knowing almost immediately when things hit the fan Apr 08 14:35:27 heh Apr 08 14:35:43 in the healthcare world... apps are DAABOR and haven't the foggiest about syslog Apr 08 14:35:45 i dont bother with irc... i have an external CDMA modem and just SMS all my problems directly to my phone Apr 08 14:36:01 I only get critical stuff going to my phone Apr 08 14:36:03 that's how i'm doing too loot- Apr 08 14:36:07 even then I get 20-30 an hour Apr 08 14:36:25 well we don't care about WARNING state in nagios Apr 08 14:36:26 ;) Apr 08 14:36:29 [; Apr 08 14:36:31 ;] Apr 08 14:36:33 ya Apr 08 14:36:52 plus for anything else i'd rather have access to my NMS boxes anyways Apr 08 14:37:57 I downgraded all the printers to warning and no sms notify... even then I get a warning every couple of minutes another printer's down Apr 08 14:38:17 nurses are the absolute bloody worst at keeping paper trays refilled. Apr 08 14:38:45 sbromwich: they are just hoping you'll spank them Apr 08 14:39:16 right now because our unix admin is not smart enough to take over by himself Apr 08 14:39:21 i have to be the sr unix admin Apr 08 14:39:31 and the security architect and engineer Apr 08 14:39:39 not bloody likely, I try to avoid going into the office as much as possible Apr 08 14:39:49 i know everything that happens on my network within minutes anyways Apr 08 14:40:32 loot-: I'm with you there, when I joined the 2 admins had just been stolen by the province and I had 2 weeks to learn the systems and AIX and keep production running... took 6 months before they could find someone else willing to try to work on aix. Apr 08 14:40:44 pre replacement #5 on the way Apr 08 14:40:47 the OT and pager pay was nice, the lack of life... not so nice. Apr 08 14:40:53 jesus fuck why won't they give me a fucking new phone instead of these refurbished piles of shit Apr 08 14:41:04 i dont get OT or pager pay Apr 08 14:41:12 but my hourly contracting rate is rape ;) Apr 08 14:41:19 heh Apr 08 14:41:22 ill give you a clue... my going non-contract rate is $300/hr Apr 08 14:41:23 yeah I was contracting too Apr 08 14:41:25 hehe Apr 08 14:41:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTtNMX361nA is up Apr 08 14:41:30 sampson: i have a refurb and it's very nice Apr 08 14:41:46 then the hospital offered me enough with enough nice conditions to persuade me to become an employee Apr 08 14:41:57 i'll never be an employee Apr 08 14:42:03 i work multiple contracts at once Apr 08 14:42:09 i've lost count of how many replacements i've had Apr 08 14:42:12 and it's only been 1 month Apr 08 14:42:22 sampson: what have you been doing to your phones? Apr 08 14:42:26 nothing!! Apr 08 14:42:29 they send me broke pieces of shit Apr 08 14:42:36 ive had my pre since a week after its initial release Apr 08 14:42:39 the last two had the oreo effect and the power button doesn't work Apr 08 14:42:41 ive done so much stuff to my phone Apr 08 14:42:42 I'm on flextime and I'm taking august off, to give you an idea of the privs I get ;-) Apr 08 14:42:47 the initial pre i traded in was getting cracks on the usb port Apr 08 14:42:51 the second one flat out didn't work Apr 08 14:42:52 dropped it from 4+ feet high on concrete several times Apr 08 14:42:53 sbromwich: not only is it a kernel video, it's a nice Preware demo too Apr 08 14:42:58 and it works great Apr 08 14:43:00 gps took ~3 hours to lock Apr 08 14:43:06 when i was driving Apr 08 14:43:35 rwhitby: oh ppl still use the launcher button... this button should be obsolete... Apr 08 14:44:32 give me a break en0x I've only had the damn thing a couple of weeks I'm still learning the details of the interface ;-) Apr 08 14:44:45 just swipe up ;) Apr 08 14:44:57 from meta-geture area Apr 08 14:45:02 ah-hah, thanks Apr 08 14:45:15 much more convenient Apr 08 14:45:27 I use the launcher button, and I do know about the swipe-up ... I guess my brain is wired to push buttons Apr 08 14:45:47 or if u have an app open do double swipe up Apr 08 14:45:48 ;] Apr 08 14:45:53 and it will bring u launcher Apr 08 14:46:53 handy tips, ta :-) Apr 08 14:47:12 someone spent a lot of time writing the code that lets you drag the launcher bar up and have it contort itself under your finger as you drag -- I still have no idea why one would actually want to do this Apr 08 14:48:14 i dont use the wave Apr 08 14:48:15 idk why Apr 08 14:48:30 i rather put my app in card view and open new one Apr 08 14:49:06 yeah I thought that wave was a way to stuff extra icons in like on the apple desktop Apr 08 14:49:06 there are plenty of features that I don't use but I understand why someone might use them (e.g. swipe up for the launcher) Apr 08 14:49:11 but indeed the wave is nice :) when u shoiw it to ppl they like "WOW" Apr 08 14:49:14 instead it'll take... 4 icons? Apr 08 14:49:18 rwhitby: Upgrade from Classic to Alpha went without a hitch here. Apr 08 14:49:34 ... but the wave doesn't even make sense to me -- other than it looks cool. Apr 08 14:49:44 rwhitby: Is it safe to use both, or should I stick to only Alpha from here? Apr 08 14:49:49 sbromwich: yap maybe someday in future they will give u an option to change that somewhere in preferences Apr 08 14:50:39 Mercury: since classic and alpha have the same front-end code, and both are now using the same back-end once you've installed alpha, then the only difference between them is the name Apr 08 14:51:05 i still havent tried the alpha yer Apr 08 14:51:07 yet Apr 08 14:51:17 rwhitby: Oh! You just replace the backend entirely, that works. Apr 08 14:52:49 * nt4cats just noticed a line in his '/proc/cpuinfo Apr 08 14:53:07 just the one? Apr 08 14:53:08 that confused him for about 7 seconds, but upon thinking about it, makes perfect sense Apr 08 14:53:15 address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual Apr 08 14:53:31 my 1st thought is 'isn't this a 64-bit processor' -- but now I get it Apr 08 14:54:49 just because it has 64-bit registers doesn't mean it can address 18 billion gigabytes of memory Apr 08 14:55:12 nobody got there yet Apr 08 14:55:13 (2^64 is approximately 18 billion gigabytes) Apr 08 14:55:41 Mine is a 40 / 48 bit split there. Apr 08 14:56:10 my friend at novell is going to talk to his guys to see if anyone's interested in getting -rt running on the pre Apr 08 14:56:26 36 bits gives 68 gigs of addressable space, that should last me for a bit Apr 08 14:56:45 haha Apr 08 14:56:45 (certainly longer than this laptop will last) Apr 08 14:57:04 (... and this laptop tops out at 4G RAM anyway) Apr 08 14:57:13 am i brave or stupid for using my vacation time out of town to finally doctor up my phone again so i can resume kernel hacking Apr 08 14:57:31 loot-: you should use your vacation time to do what you enjoy doing Apr 08 14:57:31 loot-: possibly both? ;-) Apr 08 14:57:47 lol well i dont have time to do it normally Apr 08 14:57:54 and cant have downtime on my phone really Apr 08 14:58:00 but when im officially "unavailable" status Apr 08 14:58:09 i can shut my phone off... but unfortunately ill be on vacation Apr 08 14:58:14 loot-: I'd personally recommend trying to get people who are aligned with your preferences to unclothe themselves, but it is really up to you Apr 08 14:58:24 ill probably end up doctoring the phone in the airport with my laptop Apr 08 14:58:25 lol Apr 08 14:59:29 im going to visit some high school friends over the long weekend Apr 08 14:59:44 so getting laid wont really be challenging im sure Apr 08 14:59:54 lol Apr 08 15:00:00 lol Apr 08 15:00:10 what long weekend? Apr 08 15:00:16 i took tomorrow off Apr 08 15:00:31 en0x: it is International Loot day, didn't you know? Apr 08 15:00:41 indeed Apr 08 15:00:47 i plan to be intoxicated by noon tomorrow Apr 08 15:00:48 haha Apr 08 15:00:54 [; Apr 08 15:01:10 hey, when you work for 3-6 months solid working day/night Apr 08 15:01:18 when you finally take time off for vacation you a little crazy Apr 08 15:01:27 go a little crazy* Apr 08 15:02:44 i just hope i can doctor the phone before boarding my flight Apr 08 15:02:59 they might get a little mad at me if im flashing my phone when they're trying to take off Apr 08 15:03:58 screw them Apr 08 15:04:29 it's been proven that radio signal do no harm to airplane equipment Apr 08 15:04:41 actually Apr 08 15:05:00 on myth busters they showed that cell phones actually do interfere with navigation equipment if they are close enough Apr 08 15:05:17 define "close enough" Apr 08 15:05:42 well they were doing it from a fake prop built cockpit with unshielded cabling Apr 08 15:05:55 but on a real plane the gear is scattered all over the place Apr 08 15:06:06 My viewpoint on that is actually fairly straight forward. Apr 08 15:06:36 loot-: i've seen that episode... they used fairly old cockpit equipment, too. Apr 08 15:06:41 Either they built the plane right to remove that attack vector, or they are saying that a terrorist doesn't need a flipping bomb, just some noisy electronics in their backpack that they don't actually turn off. Apr 08 15:07:03 Mercury: they have so many different types of navigation equipment now Apr 08 15:07:04 plus Apr 08 15:07:10 GPS soon will take over radar nav Apr 08 15:07:19 which cell phones absolutely will not affect at all Apr 08 15:07:33 i think the conclusion was around the lines: "we can make a plane, that will be harmed by radio waves, but that is different from a normal modern plane" Apr 08 15:08:04 loot-: radar isn't affected by cell phones, either... Apr 08 15:08:05 but... FAA regulations still say no cell phones in flight Apr 08 15:08:08 so either way im screwed Apr 08 15:08:08 lol Apr 08 15:08:35 All in all, it's my great hope that the FAA regulations are simply, technically inaccurate about the dangers, instead of giving lots and lots of room to do bad things to planes. Apr 08 15:09:00 "better safe than sorry"... Apr 08 15:09:12 (or - better paranoid than sorry) Apr 08 15:09:37 meh... FAA regs and TSA dont bother me all that much Apr 08 15:09:51 dthought: Damn straight, they need to make sure that every plane flying in the US can take off, navigate, and land correctly with someone on board _actively_ trying to screw up the electronics with radios. Apr 08 15:10:01 i have nothing to hide and the only thing that annoys me about all the new security is having to pay $8 for a red bull or $5 for a cup of coffee at the airport Apr 08 15:10:50 Mercury: someone who actively tries to screw up smth will allways find a hole... Apr 08 15:11:12 now... the day customs tries to force me to provide them my AES pass phrases to confidential corporate materials... that will abruptly change Apr 08 15:11:26 loot-: they can do that now Apr 08 15:11:32 sbromwich: they can but never have Apr 08 15:11:39 if they did it would bug me Apr 08 15:11:51 but they never have so i dont really care atm Apr 08 15:11:59 prof down in .au did some nice work to get around that with dual encryption layers Apr 08 15:12:39 give customs the key for your "innocent" encrypted data and keep the "private" stuff separate Apr 08 15:12:50 dthought: Security is all about finding those holes, and making them as small as is practical. If they are worried about the transmitter in my cell phone screwing up the plane, or just what EM my PDA gives off with all radios turned off, then I worry about the size hole they are leaving in stuff. Apr 08 15:13:00 i dont think customs would even know how to use my computer Apr 08 15:13:07 * Mercury leaves for work. Apr 08 15:13:17 because it has an encrypted filesystem on an SSD Apr 08 15:13:31 and i dont even have windows installed on it Apr 08 15:13:50 so they'd probably be sitting there scratching their heads for hours trying to figure out what its even doing Apr 08 15:14:02 yeah, I found a dog simple fix for all that crap Apr 08 15:14:06 I don't fly anywhere any more Apr 08 15:14:32 customs can only examine your laptop like that if you are flying internationally Apr 08 15:14:52 domestic flights they dont even have customs officials Apr 08 15:15:11 hah Apr 08 15:15:25 what if you encrypted your internal media partition on the pre Apr 08 15:15:36 would they even know that its encrypted? lol Apr 08 15:15:42 lol Apr 08 15:15:51 loot-: there is that cryptfs mounted on the pre... Apr 08 15:16:14 im just talking for mass storage type stuff Apr 08 15:16:35 encrypt all your movies/mp3s/files and as far as they know your phone appears to be entirely open and unencrypted Apr 08 15:16:43 loot-: yeah Apr 08 15:17:06 or just have an LV that isn't mounted by default, the typical customs officer would just plug it in and access the phone as a usb drive and see nada Apr 08 15:17:14 Note: U.S. citizens do not have the 'right' to travel internationally. Many E.U. (and probably other) citizens have a specific right that guarantees them that right, we do not. It would be strictly legal for the US customs service to not allow you to leave the country just on a whim. Apr 08 15:17:34 lol w00t Apr 08 15:17:53 really, nt4cats? I didn't know that... is there a right to travel internally at least? Apr 08 15:18:24 I didn't know that either Apr 08 15:19:16 good to have another citizenship ;) Apr 08 15:19:24 sbromwich: I'm not saying that the US government does restrict people from leaving the country ... but an interesting difference between our (US) consitutional rights and that of our European friends, is that many EU countries thought it was sufficiently important to guarantee the citizens' right to leave the country Apr 08 15:19:42 loot-: look at /media/internal/.palm/ Apr 08 15:19:55 interesting Apr 08 15:19:56 I'm not a lawyer, I just remember this coming up in a college course (too many years ago) Apr 08 15:20:02 thats the source that is mounted to /cryptofs Apr 08 15:20:04 *nod* Apr 08 15:21:13 sbromwich: did you see earlier that we might look into extending cryptofs to emulate symlinks and permissions even though it's on vfat ? Apr 08 15:21:40 sbromwich: then we can put the debian chroot directly in /media/cryptofs (or in a sibling mount) Apr 08 15:22:11 rwhitby: that sounds awesome (extending cryptofs) Apr 08 15:22:28 what'd I miss? Apr 08 15:24:08 rwhitby: I'd prefer to have it on a plain ext3 fs so there's fewer layers of code to go through to access the files, but that's just my personal preference Apr 08 15:24:19 does cryptofs gain you anything of note? Apr 08 15:26:35 rwhitby: where does the key for the cryptofs come from? Apr 08 15:27:52 dthought: that was my next question ;-) Apr 08 15:28:21 i just ordered 2 Polk TSi300's Apr 08 15:28:36 spend some amazon gift cards Apr 08 15:32:41 one of the few drawbacks to working at this startup -- cheap&crappy DSL connection at the office. It has been a bouncing betty for 2 days now. Apr 08 15:33:31 has anyone figured out how to mess with the bitpool range on the palm pre A2DP? Apr 08 15:34:08 I have a Linux computer set up as an A2DP sink and it looks like the bitpool is 32, which is probably not high enough Apr 08 15:34:24 the bitpool from the pre source that is Apr 08 15:37:47 rwhitby: are you explicitly syncing in preware alpha after removing a package? Apr 08 15:38:18 I just removed checkbook and got to success and then it hung for ~5 seconds while (presumably) it synced to disk Apr 08 15:38:42 sbromwich: no, that's a call to the webOS 'rescan' service method Apr 08 15:38:48 ah ok Apr 08 15:38:53 we don't really know what it does then Apr 08 15:39:20 dthought: the key for cryptofs is based on the nduid for the device, and is easily calculable Apr 08 15:39:24 it just looked like it had hung saying SUCCESS... maybe follow it up with "rescanning webos, please wait" or something? Apr 08 15:40:11 the cryptofs is not intended (as far as I can see) to be encryption. Just a layer of obfuscation so a casual observer plugging the device in as USB does not see plaintext app files. Apr 08 15:40:12 okay...I've had it Apr 08 15:40:33 this Vista laptop will be an Ubuntu laptop in a few hours Apr 08 15:40:44 lol Apr 08 15:40:53 i havent run windows on bare metal in at least 3-4 years Apr 08 15:41:00 sbromwich: I'm off to bed. I posted a goodnight notice in the thread :) Apr 08 15:41:11 ok rwhitby sleep well :-) Apr 08 15:41:27 rwhitby: still interested in all the usb enumeration stuff even if it breaks must-have stuff like usb charging and novacom? Apr 08 15:41:55 i dont care about those things because i have terminal installed and touchstone charging still works Apr 08 15:41:57 loot-: sure. just tell it to someone here and I'll see it in the logs tomorrow Apr 08 15:41:59 idontwan2know: I'll get some flack for this... but... I cured pretty much all of my Vista woes with an upgrade to Win7 Apr 08 15:42:04 and i have an external battery charger with an extra battery Apr 08 15:42:11 * rwhitby bbt Apr 08 15:42:11 but the average person may cry about losing that stuff Apr 08 15:42:24 rwhitby: ok, cya Apr 08 15:42:49 phil_bw_work: I considered that, but I'm cheap. Also considered going the Hackintosh route, but I'm lazy Apr 08 15:44:16 idontwan2know: I hear ya on that. The upgrade goes quite well though I must say, if you find the money that is. Apr 08 15:44:27 loot-: just remember that if you find a way that makes you lose the usb charging and novacom Apr 08 15:44:32 someone else might find another way Apr 08 15:44:38 related that doesn't :) Apr 08 15:44:46 ... yes, so as I was saying, Palm and all of its employees are my absolute favorite. Apr 08 15:45:08 Lumiere: doubtful Apr 08 15:45:18 the problem is 2 sided Apr 08 15:45:28 omap3 and the kernel Apr 08 15:45:44 so unless they hack their omap3 with some kind of daughter board usb headers or something Apr 08 15:45:47 its unlikely Apr 08 15:46:42 got a ?, I have 3 pathches that wont update since 1.4.1.1, from the forums, I read that I shoudl run the WOS repair utility w/override. This will wipe all my patches, the other 60, if I backup using Save/Restore my preware settings, would I then be able to use this to restore my 60 other patches w/.o having to manually install all 60? Apr 08 15:46:43 hah bluetooth to usb enumeration would be sexy Apr 08 15:46:57 i wonder if anyone makes bluetooth devices that would bridge a usb hub Apr 08 15:48:24 mikePre: if you get on preware .9.35 I believe you can get a list of all the apps too... Apr 08 15:50:37 i just loaded .9.35, I will take a look at that Apr 08 17:02:48 wow, that kernel thread is good fun Apr 08 17:04:25 In a Jerry Springer kind of way, yeah Apr 08 17:04:40 lol Apr 08 17:06:37 good grief, is it still going on? Apr 08 17:07:00 i dont know, i only just found it Apr 08 17:07:03 and skimmed through it Apr 08 17:07:06 I thought it was interesting when rwhitby hit that guy over the head with a chair ... Apr 08 17:07:07 I gave up after it became necessary to START SHOUTING and people still didn't pay any attention Apr 08 17:07:10 heh Apr 08 17:07:55 nt4cats: but the bouncers always stop the fights before anyone bleeds Apr 08 17:08:37 * ka6sox can never find anything in forums :P Apr 08 17:08:37 yeah. I'm still trying to figure out what precentral forums are good for. Apr 08 17:08:47 if jerry springer were real Apr 08 17:08:47 ha ha Apr 08 17:08:54 someone would have snuck a gun or a knife on that show by now Apr 08 17:09:01 ka6sox: howdy - were you looking for me yesterday? Apr 08 17:09:25 jacques, ya... Apr 08 17:10:04 jacques: the precentral forums are awesome. any mistake you can make, it's guaranteed somebody there has made it first Apr 08 17:10:30 lol Apr 08 17:10:36 and made a post declaring that their Pre is junk and they're getting a hero/iPhone/whatever Apr 08 17:12:49 * jacques doesn't have time for trolls. Apr 08 17:13:01 apple is presenting iphone os 4 ... they have to talk about numbers... how many they sold up to day... app store etc Apr 08 17:13:14 I've stopped reading forums/comments at slashdot, engadget, and precentral Apr 08 17:13:24 en0x: yah, I'm watghing it Apr 08 17:13:27 watching Apr 08 17:13:34 wow calendar access Apr 08 17:13:35 ;D Apr 08 17:13:47 "one more thing"? Apr 08 17:13:50 camera access Apr 08 17:13:51 rotfl Apr 08 17:13:57 webos had it long time ago :p Apr 08 17:14:01 jacques: tiny funloving trolls (like me) are occasionally amusing. I argued that 'bogomips are the only useful benchmark' with someone (sbromwich) here for about 30 seconds yesterday ... Apr 08 17:14:15 that should say "(sbromwich?)" Apr 08 17:14:26 indeed you did Apr 08 17:14:27 nt4cats: heh. :-) Apr 08 17:14:34 you naughty little troll, you Apr 08 17:15:17 I'm one of those "Kill you in your sleep for lulz" trolls Apr 08 17:15:18 hehe Apr 08 17:15:23 we even have "shoe bomber" trolls now Apr 08 17:15:42 that's just how Quatari diplomats get their kicks Apr 08 17:15:54 it would have been funnier Apr 08 17:15:56 sbromwich how were you switching the kernels so fast when you were testing? Apr 08 17:16:00 if his shoe had a cigarette in it Apr 08 17:16:05 and thats how he made the joke Apr 08 17:16:20 sad thing is, they'll probably use the latest incident as an excuse to make things even worse when travelling Apr 08 17:16:24 jacques: multitasking! Apr 08 17:16:30 Yeah... Apr 08 17:16:47 jacques: jeremy piven in the goods proved that real americans can smoke on planes Apr 08 17:16:53 lol Apr 08 17:17:11 Well, at least iphone's multitasking will force palm to make their better Apr 08 17:17:13 I hope Apr 08 17:17:23 I don't think so Apr 08 17:17:25 ka6sox: booting from mem Apr 08 17:17:36 if it's what I've heard, it won't compare to WebOS Apr 08 17:17:46 its via a dock thingie Apr 08 17:18:03 yes...which is stupid Apr 08 17:18:05 over usb, that is Apr 08 17:18:20 Well, Its better than 99% of the stuff out there Apr 08 17:18:28 en0x: the rumor was true (about multitasking) I guess Apr 08 17:18:43 so far his example looks like it's just checkpointing/suspending the background app. Apr 08 17:18:51 wow Apr 08 17:18:55 jacques: yap Apr 08 17:19:05 That's their brilliant "we're gonna do it better" multitasking? Apr 08 17:19:09 cards = best handheld multitasking Apr 08 17:19:18 if they dont do cards, they're shooting themselves in the foot Apr 08 17:19:20 “We figured out how to implement multitasking for third party apps and avoid those things. That’s what took us a little longer, but I think we nailed it.” Apr 08 17:19:23 oh Apr 08 17:19:27 ;] Apr 08 17:19:39 iphone OS 4.0 developer preview being released today Apr 08 17:19:41 Palm would sue the pants off of anybody who did cards. Apr 08 17:19:56 Even Apple Apr 08 17:19:58 ka6sox: I updated the wiki at http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Research_Pre_Boot_Process with working details on how to boot mem Apr 08 17:20:26 sbromwich: nice Apr 08 17:20:48 http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/iphone40software/iphone40software107.jpg wow open apps... it looks like shit Apr 08 17:20:53 I'm contributing sweat equity as I don't have a credit card to donate $$$ Apr 08 17:21:27 PANDORA! Apr 08 17:21:29 rwhitby bottles your sweat and sells it on the black market Apr 08 17:21:34 Wow, cutting edge! Apr 08 17:21:48 yap Apr 08 17:22:14 7 apis for background Apr 08 17:22:17 "We're providing seven multitasking APIs to developers" Apr 08 17:22:20 cutting edge again! Apr 08 17:22:32 "Pandora can continue to play music in the background while you switch to apps. And you can use a controller in the lock screen to control Pandora." Apr 08 17:22:35 where have i seen that before Apr 08 17:22:35 xD Apr 08 17:23:10 7?! Apr 08 17:23:19 what's wrong with just using fork()? Apr 08 17:23:35 “It took developers just one day to make Pandora fully background aware.” Apr 08 17:23:38 :D Apr 08 17:23:49 Maybe cause they had already done it on another OS... Apr 08 17:23:52 and I bet they didn't helicopter in any apple engineers at *all*. Apr 08 17:24:17 no just steve jobs Apr 08 17:24:23 and he parked the helicopter in a handicapped spot Apr 08 17:24:36 lol Apr 08 17:24:45 and pushed an old lady with a walker out of his way walking in the front door Apr 08 17:25:13 the dock sucks Apr 08 17:25:16 have u seen it? Apr 08 17:25:17 :> Apr 08 17:25:25 honestly i dont understand the crapple craze Apr 08 17:25:40 its crappy crap thats expensive Apr 08 17:26:01 They make a very nice notebook if price is no object. Apr 08 17:26:07 they over engineer it for stupid people... Apr 08 17:26:10 Other than that? None of their stuff interests me. Apr 08 17:26:10 i guess thats why its popular Apr 08 17:26:36 even their laptops... whats so great about them? Apr 08 17:26:40 horrible quality Apr 08 17:26:42 heat problems Apr 08 17:26:49 twice as expensive as others with equivalent specs Apr 08 17:26:52 its just thin Apr 08 17:26:54 big deal... Apr 08 17:27:17 thin matters to me :-p Apr 08 17:27:25 I want my laptops portable Apr 08 17:27:29 pixi is thinner than iphone :( Apr 08 17:27:30 so do i Apr 08 17:27:30 Let's see...AT&T's network can't even handle regular voice radio calls in major cities. Apr 08 17:27:35 but dell does just fine Apr 08 17:27:36 Let's add skype! Apr 08 17:27:39 for 1/3rd the price of a crapple Apr 08 17:27:41 and! Apr 08 17:27:48 i dont have that stupid logo for everyone to see Apr 08 17:27:56 LOOK AT ME GUYS IM TRENDY WITH MY CRAPPLE Apr 08 17:28:01 what's so great about them is they're good enough for a numpty user to use easily and it's not running windows so the f*****rs don't come whining to me complaining their windows machine keeps dying/getting infected/just plain doesn't work Apr 08 17:28:06 * loot- writes code in public places so people can see him writing Apr 08 17:28:09 haha Apr 08 17:28:10 Apr 08 17:28:38 lol...now they're talking about finding a restaurant while on a phone call Apr 08 17:28:43 the ONLY redeeming quality crapple has in my eyes... they have a unix variant OS and frown on microsoft Apr 08 17:28:46 other than that Apr 08 17:28:58 they've been running tv ads describing doing that very thing on the existing phone for a year now Apr 08 17:29:00 if i was offered a choice Apr 08 17:29:03 a fully decked out Apr 08 17:29:10 $20,000 mac pro with dual quad core xeons Apr 08 17:29:18 every trimming including dual 30" cinema displays Apr 08 17:29:22 or punching steve jobs in the face Apr 08 17:29:28 i think i'd pick punching steve jobs in the face Apr 08 17:29:29 :P Apr 08 17:29:46 I'd take the mac pro and put some other flavour of *nix on it Apr 08 17:29:59 osx's multitasking is still a bit onthe sucky side Apr 08 17:30:12 that's the price of buggering about with graphics so much Apr 08 17:30:23 i think i would get more enjoyment Apr 08 17:30:32 knocking some sense into steve jobs Apr 08 17:30:36 but steve jobs said that multitasking = evil Apr 08 17:30:44 than i would from the ~6 months of using a mac pro before it self destructs Apr 08 17:30:46 *shrug* it's looking like he doesn't have long left on this world anyway Apr 08 17:30:47 :P Apr 08 17:30:49 id sell the pictures of me punching him in the face for millions Apr 08 17:31:15 haha Apr 08 17:31:17 apple can only buy organs for him on the black market so many times before his body goes into rejection Apr 08 17:31:23 make a face while doing it Apr 08 17:31:24 like Apr 08 17:31:24 lol Apr 08 17:31:26 somebody wake me when they get to something that some other phone doesn't already do and do better Apr 08 17:31:28 tongue out Apr 08 17:31:32 one hand doing the bull horns Apr 08 17:31:34 hahaha Apr 08 17:31:47 next they're going to introduce a wireless charging device Apr 08 17:31:57 where you just set hte phone on it and it charges Apr 08 17:32:03 lol Apr 08 17:32:14 i want to do a parody video Apr 08 17:32:20 make a commercial about the ipad Apr 08 17:32:26 hinting that its a maxipad but never saying it Apr 08 17:32:46 and having women in a public bathroom one asking the other if she has any tampons... and the other saying "you have an ipad right? theres an app for that!" Apr 08 17:32:48 haha Apr 08 17:33:22 i love how its like all this stuff is new again Apr 08 17:33:23 "Now you can get them in the background, you can even listen to music, and it's still giving you directions." Apr 08 17:33:34 my pre has been doing that since i took it out of the box Apr 08 17:33:35 oilsworkn: microsuck has been doing that for years with security technology Apr 08 17:33:38 my palm pre had it since day one Apr 08 17:33:39 remember how Apr 08 17:33:48 DEP and ASLR were "new" and microsoft invented them? Apr 08 17:33:49 haha Apr 08 17:34:02 not like nx bit and ASLR have been around for... oh i dunno 2 decades? Apr 08 17:34:07 its new because microsuck did it! Apr 08 17:34:17 and did a horrible job implementing both so they'er entirely useless Apr 08 17:34:56 wow Apr 08 17:34:59 Wow...they haven't done anything to fix iPhone OS's terrible notifications Apr 08 17:35:04 notifications when an application asks for your location? Apr 08 17:35:08 :/ Apr 08 17:35:09 It's still act on it now or lose it forever. Apr 08 17:35:52 i feel bad for iphone users... they're oppressed from all sides Apr 08 17:36:06 their manufacturer hates them and thinks they know whats best for them Apr 08 17:36:10 so does their provider Apr 08 17:36:43 and god damn that itunes Apr 08 17:36:45 * loot- shakes fist Apr 08 17:37:01 omg Apr 08 17:37:03 folders! Apr 08 17:37:06 you sure take this stuff personally Apr 08 17:37:07 idontwan2know: those notifications are so pissing me off when i used my friends iphone Apr 08 17:37:20 lol Apr 08 17:37:24 they're only on 2 of 7! Apr 08 17:37:32 Is it 1987 again? That folders is a new idea? Apr 08 17:37:50 it is when jobs says it is Apr 08 17:38:05 Folders is pretty cool though... Apr 08 17:38:13 oh man... who brought up the iphone... Apr 08 17:38:22 You Apr 08 17:38:25 mdklein_: i do because its offensive to me as a computer professional Apr 08 17:38:26 I already do the same thing with launcher pages Apr 08 17:38:29 You can have two separate images for the wallpaper and the lock screen. Apr 08 17:38:31 wow Apr 08 17:38:31 :D Apr 08 17:38:59 * oilsworkn goes to get snacks Apr 08 17:39:07 well they need folders because there is no good universal search like webOS has Apr 08 17:39:10 ;] Apr 08 17:40:01 that, or they have way more apps they need to organize ;-) Apr 08 17:40:03 Well, you need to keep your 13 fart noise apps organized, man! Apr 08 17:40:29 unified inbox Apr 08 17:40:46 hmm i thought that some other os was doing it already for almost a year Apr 08 17:40:47 they should just make the iphone kill its user and get it over with Apr 08 17:40:53 lol Apr 08 17:40:55 and threads Apr 08 17:40:55 and threaded messaging! Apr 08 17:41:09 like Apr 08 17:41:16 when you slide to unlock Apr 08 17:41:25 it hits you with 250,000 volts Apr 08 17:41:34 and checks to see if you have a pulse Apr 08 17:41:38 if so... repeat Apr 08 17:42:07 like the suicide booth in futurama Apr 08 17:42:12 i could see apple making those in the future Apr 08 17:42:29 i bet all of the tech blogs will write: "Iphone OS 4 so revolutionary that u can't even imagine" Apr 08 17:43:26 oh shit, you can open an attachment with an app? Apr 08 17:43:30 well, to be fair the tech blogs were pretty lukewarm on the iPad. Apr 08 17:43:51 it wasn't until close to launch day that they suddenly went nuts for it Apr 08 17:48:01 i wish someone would give me a free ipad Apr 08 17:48:21 so i can make a video of me pulling it out of the box and immediately smashing it into a thousand pieces Apr 08 17:48:34 didnt that one guy do that? Apr 08 17:48:44 yap with a baseball bat Apr 08 17:48:45 :D Apr 08 17:48:46 lol the FCC video? Apr 08 17:48:49 got donations to buy some apple product only to instantly smash it Apr 08 17:48:51 oh theres a different vid? Apr 08 17:48:53 haha thats awesome Apr 08 17:49:03 i would put $5 towards you making a video of smashing it Apr 08 17:49:04 that guy is my hero Apr 08 17:49:12 i wouldnt smash my Apr 08 17:49:15 i should put up a paypal Apr 08 17:49:15 imagine how many other people would throw 5 on it Apr 08 17:49:15 i would piss on it Apr 08 17:49:15 haha Apr 08 17:49:16 ;] Apr 08 17:49:32 i'd piss on it but i wont make anyone on the internet watch that Apr 08 17:49:44 people enjoy things exploding into a million tiny fragments though Apr 08 17:50:20 i remember watching hte vid Apr 08 17:50:22 he bought it Apr 08 17:50:26 the only down side to that is that regardless of how good it would make us feel to smash one... in the end we're only paying apple Apr 08 17:50:28 and right outside the store in the mall Apr 08 17:50:37 he takes it out of hte box and just chucks it at the floor Apr 08 17:50:43 hahaha Apr 08 17:50:49 thats exactly what i was thinking Apr 08 17:50:55 thats funny someone beat me to it Apr 08 17:51:10 it was either with an ipod or iphone Apr 08 17:51:13 i wanna say ipod though Apr 08 17:51:16 before the touch Apr 08 17:51:21 hmm...what file system should I use for my ubuntu install? Apr 08 17:51:30 imagine if you smashed it IN the apple store right at the counter Apr 08 17:51:34 like seconds after paying for it Apr 08 17:51:39 right in front of the staff Apr 08 17:51:40 haha Apr 08 17:51:40 they wouldn't like that too much Apr 08 17:51:48 and jobs would smite you Apr 08 17:51:56 and lightning would come out of the sky Apr 08 17:52:01 iPhone OS4 - Catch-up Edition. Now with MORE ADS! Apr 08 17:52:05 and hit the guy next to you Apr 08 17:52:06 10 ads in 30 minutes sounds a little intrusive Apr 08 17:52:21 iAd, LOLS Apr 08 17:52:23 ads at all sounds intrusive Apr 08 17:52:49 apple telling me what i can and cannot do with someone i just purchased also sounds intrusive :P Apr 08 17:52:56 s/someone/something/ Apr 08 17:52:57 loot- meant: apple telling me what i can and cannot do with something i just purchased also sounds intrusive :P Apr 08 17:53:16 heh, nice slip .. "someone i just purchased" Apr 08 17:53:20 GM doesn't harass me and threaten to shut off my on-star because i put an intake on my car Apr 08 17:53:23 lol Apr 08 17:53:47 * oilsworkn never knew loot was a slaver Apr 08 17:53:49 Apple will sell and host the ads, and will give developers 60% split of the revenue. Apr 08 17:53:52 i knew it! Apr 08 17:54:08 every other corporation in the world when they encounter unauthorized modifications will just void any warranty... not try to rape you Apr 08 17:55:18 I never was threatened with rape for jailbreaking my ipod :-o Apr 08 17:55:42 mdklein_: steve jobs must have been busy raping crippled old ladies for handicapped parking that day Apr 08 17:55:48 * bpadalino|work sighs Apr 08 17:56:02 work again Apr 08 17:56:07 lol Apr 08 17:56:08 'cept Palm, they're just like "bring it back the way you got it and you're good" Apr 08 17:56:26 it's a really nice day in nyc Apr 08 17:56:29 go outside Apr 08 17:56:43 phil_bw_work: palm is one of those companies that knows they have die hard users that want to squeeze every single ounce out of their devices Apr 08 17:56:50 sounds like a trap Apr 08 17:57:05 exactly Apr 08 17:57:15 ... no. Apr 08 17:57:36 nyc stinks Apr 08 17:57:58 its nice and sunny here Apr 08 17:58:03 I can take a video of me relaxing on a bench at the zoo :p Apr 08 17:58:11 It's Apr 08 17:58:15 please dont Apr 08 17:58:15 its nice and sunny in seattle too Apr 08 17:58:28 mousey is in seattle? Apr 08 17:58:33 normally Apr 08 17:58:35 it's nice in boston too Apr 08 17:58:38 it's trying to be nice here south of Portland Apr 08 17:58:40 * oilsworkn is like 2 hours east Apr 08 17:58:53 spokane? Apr 08 17:59:01 spokane is like 6 hours from seattle Apr 08 17:59:02 lol Apr 08 17:59:08 yakima Apr 08 17:59:13 ah, a few of us northwesterners here Apr 08 17:59:22 how is that ad considered "in the app" it like takes over the entire screen, that's exactly like clicking a banner ad imo... :-/ oh well Apr 08 17:59:25 i was in oregon last week actually Apr 08 17:59:25 oil you're in yakima? Apr 08 17:59:27 PuffTheMagic: go outside, it's a beautiful day Apr 08 17:59:30 yeah Apr 08 17:59:31 it's sunny and nice in Iowa today too Apr 08 17:59:38 I get to yakima myself from time to time Apr 08 17:59:48 wife's grandma lives there Apr 08 17:59:53 i went to lincoln city with family last week Apr 08 17:59:57 in oregon Apr 08 18:00:09 I'm about an hour from lincoln city Apr 08 18:00:13 lol Apr 08 18:00:14 i've never been to spokane Apr 08 18:00:21 or yakima Apr 08 18:00:35 oil: you probably drove right through newberg on your way there Apr 08 18:00:37 my sister lives in spokane Apr 08 18:00:50 phil_bw_work: probably Apr 08 18:00:50 sunny and 80 here Apr 08 18:00:52 your sisssssster Apr 08 18:01:07 ka6sox: bah, its always sunny and 80 there, doesn't count! =P Apr 08 18:01:11 Mousey: hahaha Apr 08 18:01:45 Mousey, we are going to have a Cold Trough on saturday...60! Apr 08 18:02:15 lol Apr 08 18:02:37 120miles west of LA. Apr 08 18:03:32 i don't ever remember it being as warm as 60 here since last summer Apr 08 18:03:51 iphoneos 4 not until fall... that's a ways off Apr 08 18:04:02 apple could fold by then! Apr 08 18:04:09 lol Apr 08 18:04:24 pre-announce 6months ahead to drum up expectation :P Apr 08 18:04:24 palm will come out with webOS 1.5 and it will have a lot of new features! Apr 08 18:04:36 [; Apr 08 18:04:46 i keep finding pre owners who've never heard of preware! Apr 08 18:04:53 man, that doesn't last long Apr 08 18:04:54 oh, the 3g doesn't get multitasking? Apr 08 18:05:02 oilsworkn: nope ;( Apr 08 18:05:10 lol Apr 08 18:05:44 wait, iphones get it in summer, ipads in fall? that makes no sense. Apr 08 18:06:11 :( My Pre just hit some concrete. Was pretty scratch free until this point... Apr 08 18:06:44 iphone 4.0 OS: now containing faux-multitasking. Apr 08 18:06:55 and FOLDERS! Apr 08 18:07:02 and ADS Apr 08 18:07:07 and AIDS Apr 08 18:07:07 the dock to see all ur open apps is a joke Apr 08 18:07:08 :D Apr 08 18:07:20 and things my pre has been doing forever Apr 08 18:07:38 you don't get it oilsworkn... apple is doing it "right"! Apr 08 18:07:41 hahahaha Apr 08 18:07:45 Palm: Multitask while you multitask. (as in I've ran 2 X apps in one card while running 2 more apps) Apr 08 18:07:49 lol Apr 08 18:08:21 let's see iPhone pull that off Apr 08 18:08:47 okay...ubuntu is officially the most stupid simple IS install I've ever seen. Apr 08 18:09:09 well, at least the game-specific stuff was cool Apr 08 18:09:22 achievements/matchmaking/etc from xbox live Apr 08 18:09:25 should be interesting to see how it compares to winmo7's live anywhere Apr 08 18:09:28 stealing that was a good idea Apr 08 18:10:16 teh Q&A is starting off funny Apr 08 18:12:30 winmo7...I heard a rumor that might be out sometime. Apr 08 18:13:27 you mean windows phone series 7 phone? Apr 08 18:13:32 xD Apr 08 18:13:32 ka6sox: you mean this fall? >.> Apr 08 18:13:46 it's called Windows Phone 7 now btw Apr 08 18:14:00 don't release..just change the name. Apr 08 18:14:04 windows 7 word salad phone Apr 08 18:14:10 microsoft can't keep a name for long Apr 08 18:14:31 "not vista phone" would have been good enough Apr 08 18:14:59 I tried to follow a timeline of Ms. devices once when I was thinking of developing for them. got a bad headache Apr 08 18:15:39 in MS. world A =B, and B = C, but A != C Apr 08 18:16:22 oh well...at least we have weboOS Apr 08 18:16:38 indeed Apr 08 18:17:04 <3 Apr 08 18:18:42 with a nick like iSmite I wouldnt' think he's a fan of Apple. Apr 08 18:19:12 im a she and im an admin of an iphone site with 400, 000 people. Apr 08 18:19:18 bit wrong there lol Apr 08 18:19:30 lol Apr 08 18:19:32 400,000, aren't you special Apr 08 18:19:33 see how wrong one can be assuming? Apr 08 18:19:45 assumptions make an ass out of u and mptions. Apr 08 18:19:57 he he Apr 08 18:20:26 * oilsworkn wonders what this iphone site is Apr 08 18:20:57 so iSmite, what are you more broken-hearted about? iAds? fake multitasking? Lack of multitasking on 3G/2G? iPad not getting 4.0 till fall? Apr 08 18:21:37 multitasking mainly. useless apps, and the phone itself is too big and the keyboard lags Apr 08 18:21:41 I'm here to argue about the safety of complicated experimental kernels, have I come to the right place :) Apr 08 18:21:42 i sold it. Apr 08 18:21:50 i may get the next one when it comes out Apr 08 18:21:58 how dare you say that iSmite about iphone! steve will punish u ;( Apr 08 18:22:05 i don't work for him lol Apr 08 18:22:29 FuMan: yes, but about 4 hours late Apr 08 18:22:35 i think Apple have made a lot of bad decisions. I do insist on using a Mac though Apr 08 18:22:42 FuMan, thats why they call them "Experimental"...use at your own risk. Apr 08 18:22:57 ka6sox must have not seen that thread xD Apr 08 18:23:25 oilsworkn, where? hopefully not in some hard to find forum thread. Apr 08 18:23:39 oh you know it Apr 08 18:23:51 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html Apr 08 18:23:55 why on mac? is it the broken OpenGL? The lockdown of GPU in browsers? broken software like Quicktime X? :p Apr 08 18:24:05 VincentLaw, damn. Apr 08 18:24:22 lol Apr 08 18:24:23 i haven't seen that kinda rage on the forums in awhile Apr 08 18:24:27 quite the pissing contest :> Apr 08 18:24:38 ka6sox: be sure to skim all the pages Apr 08 18:24:52 it keeps going, like its runing on energizers Apr 08 18:25:04 Ok children, don't make me play every side here Apr 08 18:25:09 overclocked and ondemand energizers Apr 08 18:25:10 Get along or I'll explain why every platform is awful Apr 08 18:25:31 even your platform? Apr 08 18:25:38 lol Apr 08 18:25:42 lol Apr 08 18:25:43 that could take a while Apr 08 18:25:49 Oh I can list plenty of awful things about our platform Apr 08 18:26:00 (many of which are nearly fixed hoho) Apr 08 18:26:12 start pointing Apr 08 18:26:25 no shazam :> Apr 08 18:26:45 especially tell us about whats being fixed :) Apr 08 18:26:57 who needs shazam?! they tell u in radio what kind of song they are plaing FuMan Apr 08 18:26:59 they're fixing that annoying developer access bug~ Apr 08 18:27:11 tell me you're adding folders! Apr 08 18:27:11 heh Apr 08 18:27:13 haha Apr 08 18:27:18 you must have much better radio that I've got :> Apr 08 18:27:25 FuMan: with RDS! Apr 08 18:28:09 HD Radio helps with knowing what's playing as well Apr 08 18:28:15 FuMan, 80% of the radio stations aren't using RDBS for what it was meant to do. Apr 08 18:28:17 To solve the problems with rendering and not supporting 3d acceleration we've actually turned luna into a very thin rdesktop client Apr 08 18:28:28 interesting Apr 08 18:28:28 and it interfaces with your luna session running on our servers here Apr 08 18:28:40 So everything is over vnc basically Apr 08 18:28:40 hahaha Apr 08 18:28:42 chrisa++ Apr 08 18:28:46 oh Apr 08 18:28:57 i thought that 3g is not fast enough for this :( Apr 08 18:29:00 skyfire liked the idea :> Apr 08 18:29:22 so probably that's why we have a big lag on webOS Apr 08 18:29:24 :( Apr 08 18:29:30 ;p Apr 08 18:29:31 lol Apr 08 18:29:33 vnc...don't let Puff know that will owrk. Apr 08 18:29:46 * oilsworkn sends that quote to precentral as whats coming in 1.5 Apr 08 18:30:00 lol Apr 08 18:30:06 Mousey, there, we can leave the phone in our pocket now. Apr 08 18:30:14 he he Apr 08 18:30:25 chrisa, that would have been a great April Fools day "leak" for webOS 2.0 Apr 08 18:30:36 We've also determined that push is much easier to implement if we roll a random die to see if you should get a notification. This way we never have to turn the radio on Apr 08 18:30:55 The power savings is astronomical Apr 08 18:30:59 haha Apr 08 18:31:02 I'll bet Apr 08 18:31:07 what? it works? Apr 08 18:31:11 where do i sign up? Apr 08 18:31:14 the other way.... Apr 08 18:31:21 not serving yet. Apr 08 18:32:02 chrisa: I found I got awesome battery life if I took the battery out. I think it will last for *months* off just one charge. Apr 08 18:32:17 ah, sbromwich Apr 08 18:32:25 i didn't miss out on the unethical nit wit Apr 08 18:32:42 oh Apr 08 18:32:49 sbromwich, A+ to you, and whoever the new open kernel developers are Apr 08 18:32:58 thanks :-) Apr 08 18:33:00 looks like fun, promising stuff :) Apr 08 18:33:20 but dont talk about it in the forums Apr 08 18:33:25 xD Apr 08 18:33:28 not a word. Apr 08 18:34:08 That's it! I'm ditching this junky Pre and getting a Moto RAZR. Apr 08 18:34:30 useful hint for males: do not leave your pre on vibrate in your front pocket when you go for a piss. Apr 08 18:34:31 lol Apr 08 18:34:43 haha Apr 08 18:34:56 it... interrupts the flow. Apr 08 18:35:03 specially when I got 4 text messages in a row. Apr 08 18:36:08 You'll be happy to know that we disabled text messaging features to cut down on customer celluar bills in 1.5 Apr 08 18:36:19 We care about the consumer Apr 08 18:36:22 chrisa is on point today Apr 08 18:37:30 chrisa, also to cut down on guys pissin on themselves right? Apr 08 18:37:42 That wasn't in the metrics we collected Apr 08 18:37:52 People act weird when you use the stall next to them Apr 08 18:38:52 * Mousey certainly does Apr 08 18:40:06 people with no urinal etiquette are jerks Apr 08 18:40:26 indeed Apr 08 18:40:31 oh, nanplayer has ads? Apr 08 18:40:33 gay Apr 08 18:41:38 oilsworkn: it will when it will be released as homebrew Apr 08 18:42:08 it will have adds... Apr 08 18:42:17 s/adds/ads/ Apr 08 18:42:17 oilsworkn meant: it will have ads... Apr 08 18:42:47 im seriously going to make my own music app Apr 08 18:43:05 with 2 buttons Apr 08 18:43:06 and thats it Apr 08 18:44:32 dead silence. Apr 08 18:44:43 just how i like it Apr 08 18:44:57 when we are workin ya. Apr 08 18:45:13 so basically, multitasking on the iphone is not really multitasking Apr 08 18:45:25 lol Apr 08 18:45:37 then there are a few apis for actual multitasking Apr 08 18:45:45 like audio and location Apr 08 18:45:48 for pandora and tomtom Apr 08 18:46:09 lol Apr 08 18:46:16 I don't really see how what they're doing is any different than the way it was before, except now you can choose from recent apps in the dock, rather than going back to the home screen Apr 08 18:46:24 oilsworkn: did u know that you can't close the app when you are multitask? Apr 08 18:46:33 the app is always running Apr 08 18:46:33 yeah, i read ther qa Apr 08 18:46:38 tis not Apr 08 18:46:44 the state is saved when its not active Apr 08 18:46:57 its off Apr 08 18:47:01 hmm Apr 08 18:47:03 waiting for you to launch it Apr 08 18:47:10 and it just goes right back to where you were Apr 08 18:47:18 but its not actually running in the background Apr 08 18:47:23 what about resources? Apr 08 18:47:28 which is why there is no task manager Apr 08 18:47:32 the Crackberry is pretty much the same....some apps work in the background and other don't Apr 08 18:47:34 because still only one app at a time Apr 08 18:47:42 right Apr 08 18:47:46 if i need a tcp/ip connection to stay active, does the background app keep it open or not ? Apr 08 18:47:50 which is 100% perfect for most apps Apr 08 18:47:56 bpadalino|work: i dont think it does Apr 08 18:48:09 i thought there was only a handfull of "background apis" Apr 08 18:48:22 like music and location Apr 08 18:48:43 bpadalino: it usually fails for me but if you set tcp keepalives or ping the gateway that might keep it active Apr 08 18:49:58 so, they still can't have an irc client as awesome as wirc :) Apr 08 18:50:17 heh Apr 08 18:51:00 which lets face it, is pretty awesome Apr 08 18:51:04 lol Apr 08 18:51:12 Realistically, most people won't know the difference between what the iPhone is doing versus "real" multitasking Apr 08 18:51:35 idontwan2know: but ill know Apr 08 18:51:43 that was interesting. my UPS just beeped and my workstation rebooted. Apr 08 18:51:48 and ill use that against any fanbois in my path Apr 08 18:51:58 I just find it hilarious that after four years of waiting for it, and other OSes showing them how to do it, this is what they come up with. Apr 08 18:52:15 So much for Apple waits longer, but then does it better. Apr 08 18:52:21 well, they were waiting to do it right, right? Apr 08 18:52:27 haha Apr 08 18:52:40 is anyone having a problem with getting through the Palm-catalog part after first installing Preware? Apr 08 18:53:15 Guys, can someone sum up the Apple stuff for Mercury ? Apr 08 18:53:26 * oilsworkn would try to help, but is leaving for lunch Apr 08 18:53:27 I've had my update going for hours and it always gets stuck there. Apr 08 18:53:27 s/mercury/me/ Apr 08 18:53:48 anyone here familair with the Databsae for PreWare Alpha? I am trying to re-install my 60 patches using the saved patches, but there is one patch in the saved list that is not valid, an old one I used WOSQI to install and it keeps hanginig on it. I want to remove it from the saved list in the DB and reload preware alpha if possibel Apr 08 18:53:57 Brittany: have you done a hard reboot of your phone since installing preware? Apr 08 18:54:51 I've tried restarting and reinstalling it and still doesn't work. Apr 08 18:55:06 restarting lunsysmgr or restarting the whole phone? Apr 08 18:55:17 thewhole phone. Apr 08 18:55:44 can you novaterm in to the phone? Apr 08 18:56:18 don't think so. Apr 08 18:56:52 do you get an error message if you try? Apr 08 18:56:53 hey sbromwich Apr 08 18:56:57 hey chrisa Apr 08 18:56:59 "No, Palm do not know about this" Apr 08 18:57:02 Um Apr 08 18:57:17 I meant palm as a generic company, not specific engineers Apr 08 18:57:21 There are a good number of us in here, in case you weren't aware :) Apr 08 18:57:31 and a large number of them are from the kernel group Apr 08 18:57:45 big brother is watching! Apr 08 18:57:53 * idontwan2know puts on his tinfoil hat Apr 08 18:57:55 I realise that there's engineers here but if some numpty installs and buggers up their phone and calls palm tech support they're just going to get a whole load of wtf Apr 08 18:58:06 I don't have it on my phone. I don't have a problem with it when I instaled Preware. The WebOs doctor didn't work either. Apr 08 18:58:13 oh right, it's not supported. But we certainly know about it Apr 08 18:58:21 By large we watch homebrew pretty closely Apr 08 18:58:36 I was also trying to drive the point home that this is not for end users, but unfortunately most people failed to read my post Apr 08 18:58:38 chrisa and geist are very interested in delicious beers Apr 08 18:58:47 Brittany: it should be on your computer if you have it Apr 08 18:59:00 I don't know where it goes if you installed on windows I'm afraid :-( Apr 08 18:59:03 oh it's on my laptop Apr 08 18:59:19 I can check. Won't be too hard to find. Apr 08 18:59:24 I like beers too, my doctor has prescribed me to go to the pub every day for lunch when I'm at work Apr 08 18:59:34 sounds delicious Apr 08 18:59:46 *nod* Apr 08 19:00:00 he said he thought it was a "cultural requirement" for me and would help with some other issues Apr 08 19:00:20 chrisa, how goes the kernel development there at palm? having fun ? Apr 08 19:00:33 so I ride into work around 11am, do some work, then head down the pub for lunch and then stay there till hometime around 6 Apr 08 19:01:11 Depends on the day Apr 08 19:01:13 one of the local microbreweries has a *very* nice imperial stout at the moment Apr 08 19:01:24 wow, I already have at least 90% of what iPhone 4 has Apr 08 19:01:51 svn commit -m "Requirements doc for new sapxfer script" Apr 08 19:01:54 an iPhone fanboy who I work with is gushing right now .. I'm listening and thinking/saying "I can do that already" Apr 08 19:01:57 *sigh* Apr 08 19:01:58 sorry Apr 08 19:02:01 nt4cats: yap u r only missing threaded email :D Apr 08 19:02:08 good evening everybody. Apr 08 19:02:21 and i hope it will get added soon ;) Apr 08 19:02:33 chrisa, do you have nice hardware debuggers hooked up to your hardware ? Apr 08 19:03:08 Actually, we rarely use jtag on the apps processor side of things Apr 08 19:03:09 oh, chrisa, I noticed serial console is enabled... is there a way to get at that without getting into the world of jtag? Apr 08 19:03:14 We'd like to, but just haven't gotten around to it Apr 08 19:03:27 sbromwich: find the right pads to solder to? Apr 08 19:03:41 thought so ;-) Apr 08 19:03:47 thanks anyway :-) Apr 08 19:03:48 Actually, I can't remember how uart worked on castle Apr 08 19:03:53 er pre Apr 08 19:04:00 zsoc_wirc: i am on my porch Apr 08 19:04:14 There is a lot of angst in this kernel thread Apr 08 19:04:20 allegedly it's an 8250 so I should theoretically be able to tape on rx/tx wires off of a serial cable Apr 08 19:04:27 ANGST ANGST ANGST Apr 08 19:04:29 once I disassemble the buggery out of the phone Apr 08 19:04:42 there's a lot of people not reading my first post either, chrisa Apr 08 19:04:50 Disassembling something with flexes and sliders is not recommended Apr 08 19:04:50 "you should warn people this is dangerous!" etc. Apr 08 19:04:56 It's a nightmare to get back together Apr 08 19:04:59 heh Apr 08 19:05:11 Whereas pixi is a single mainboard basically. It's a joy to take apart Apr 08 19:05:19 Just reconnect some antennas Apr 08 19:05:19 I had to disassemble several hundred worldport modems back in the day, heat stress them, then reassemble Apr 08 19:05:47 *those* were a right sod... pcmcia cards with more hardware crammed in than there should have been. Apr 08 19:06:46 those two copper springs below the battery... are they case open sensors? Apr 08 19:07:22 I don't think so, but I'm sticking to my "I don't know pre hardware as well" disclaimer Apr 08 19:07:29 *grin* Apr 08 19:07:30 okies Apr 08 19:07:35 sbromwich: IIRC, touchstone back connectors? Apr 08 19:07:37 again just vaguely curious Apr 08 19:07:46 oh right! Apr 08 19:07:50 that makes sense Mercury Apr 08 19:08:00 I wondered how that worked Apr 08 19:11:35 magick Apr 08 19:17:38 * jacques cannot help himself and starts reading http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html Apr 08 19:18:11 jacques: nice try, we all know you don't know how to read Apr 08 19:18:23 looks like I ran into an issue with reinstalling all my patches using the saved package list feature of preware...it found a bad patch, and its at the Letter E, so it will not move past , gonna have to do the other 40 manually Apr 08 19:19:02 lol how many patches u use? Apr 08 19:19:02 100? Apr 08 19:19:16 nt4cats: :-( Apr 08 19:19:40 i have like 4 Apr 08 19:20:03 I had 65 before I had to EPR it because of 3 that stopped after 1.4.1.1 Apr 08 19:21:18 lol thats a lot of patches Apr 08 19:22:30 well if the pre did all the things "correctly" I wouldnt need any....I just would like to remove this one thats holding me up so I can move on to the others..... Apr 08 19:24:01 there are better io scheds that noop Apr 08 19:24:26 mikePre: right Apr 08 19:27:41 chrisa, interesting about the jtag .. do you ever use a 'picasso' setup - with the boards all splayed out and big connectors for the hard to reach places ? Apr 08 19:27:58 it seems that's what we use here constantly between baseband and rf boards Apr 08 19:28:17 I usually work with bare boards if I can help it Apr 08 19:29:42 i should take a picture of the development boards we put together for stuff .. Apr 08 19:30:47 i also look at all the boards laying around collecting dust and just cry a little inside :( Apr 08 19:31:02 lots of processors and FPGA's just sitting there unused Apr 08 19:33:02 isn't there a command-line util (aplay?) to play a sound on your pre? Apr 08 19:33:03 yeah, I have a few little pastic bags full of 8 or so pre boards Apr 08 19:33:24 we early on put it as a requirement that they can run naked off just usb Apr 08 19:33:27 with no modem, etc Apr 08 19:33:41 geist, was it an intentional design decision to only populate one side of the board ? Apr 08 19:33:42 thinking it would be fun to put together a cluster or something one of these days Apr 08 19:33:47 yeah Apr 08 19:33:49 that would be pretty slick Apr 08 19:33:54 makes the Z smaller Apr 08 19:34:02 remember, the main board is just behind the display Apr 08 19:34:06 ah right Apr 08 19:34:12 so XY isn't as much of a big deal as Z in that case Apr 08 19:35:05 very slick .. you should definitely put together a cluster of pre boards together Apr 08 19:35:24 and take a picture Apr 08 19:35:29 trouble is they're not particularly fast at anything Apr 08 19:35:38 like that matters Apr 08 19:35:42 i wander to build a render farm out of them, but the NEON unit on the cortex-a8 stinks Apr 08 19:35:52 wow, does it? Apr 08 19:35:58 yeah Apr 08 19:36:15 it's put as an afterthought, has terrible latency problems Apr 08 19:36:29 well that sucks Apr 08 19:36:32 generally beats nothing, but it's why the pixi is sometimes faster at certain things, even though it's a lesser technology Apr 08 19:36:59 especially since the NEON stuff doesn't change with the A9, does it ? Apr 08 19:37:09 pixi is an arm1176, last generation of a long series of cpus. reasonably tweaked. pixi is a cortex-a8, first of a new series, still got some things wrong Apr 08 19:37:16 oh you bet it changes with a9 Apr 08 19:37:25 oh, i didn't realize! Apr 08 19:37:27 a8 and a9 are clearly designed by different teams at arm Apr 08 19:37:40 they share pretty much no architectural dna Apr 08 19:38:02 a9 is arms first shot at atom Apr 08 19:38:15 interesting that they didn't rename it if it's a completely new architecture Apr 08 19:38:21 must be a marketing thing Apr 08 19:38:22 it is. a9 Apr 08 19:38:34 yeah, everything is going to be called cortex from now on out Apr 08 19:38:49 yeah, with the A, R and M differnt types Apr 08 19:38:53 a family are the big guys, r is the realtime ones, M is the little ones Apr 08 19:39:01 i think they're going to introduce some lower as Apr 08 19:39:07 definitely interesting to hear about the A9 differences .. i know we've got an A9 chip here .. Apr 08 19:39:11 like a5 or something, essentially arm11 class performance, arm9 class size, etc Apr 08 19:39:12 but i am not involved in the development of it Apr 08 19:39:51 my experience with a9 is that it's about 30% faster per clock, has a much better cache controller (or the a8's L2 cache controller stinks basically), and the neon unit is like 5x faster Apr 08 19:40:05 wow Apr 08 19:40:10 the latter two were mostly because the a8 has a terrible cache controller and terrible neon unit Apr 08 19:40:17 but still ends up matching at least an arm11 Apr 08 19:40:21 since it's dual issue, etc Apr 08 19:40:42 that bodes well for the 4430 we have here then Apr 08 19:40:58 yeah Apr 08 19:41:46 the neon/fpu unit is particularly bad on the a8 because it basically gets issued at the end of the integer pipeline Apr 08 19:41:51 it's not really integrated into the a8s core Apr 08 19:42:01 ah, definitely an afterthought then Apr 08 19:42:01 basically it does about 11 cycles of regular decoding and *then* gets handed to the fpu Apr 08 19:42:08 lame Apr 08 19:42:23 essentially it's decoded via the actual coprocessor interface Apr 08 19:42:41 newer designs, a9 or even scorpion does it the right way and dispatches neon/fpu stuff right away Apr 08 19:42:48 about 3 stages in Apr 08 19:42:57 and can simultaneously decode with integer Apr 08 19:43:06 when i see the palm presentations with the pre's connected up out the back, i always think of the video interface and wish i could wire in an hdmi/dvi connector up in there for video output Apr 08 19:43:13 the way the a8 works it has bad latency for the first string of neon, but if you can keep up a string then your'e set Apr 08 19:43:32 but the writeback of any integer registers is basically an 11 cycle penalty, sinc eit has to dump the entire integer pipeline Apr 08 19:43:48 ah, so if you fill the neon pipeline with instructions, it will get better, but just a one or two shot thing is going to be terrible Apr 08 19:44:18 right, and moving into an out of fpu regs from integer regs is automatic stall Apr 08 19:44:28 made worse by the fact that EABI calls for fpu regs to be passed in GP regs Apr 08 19:44:31 FatElvis: quick reply from chrism there Apr 08 19:45:06 eh? Apr 08 19:45:11 but neon is better than no neon. the piranha guys put together a pretty good scaling pipeline on the neon unit. works much better than pixi Apr 08 19:45:45 i think they managed to get the pixi blitting stuff under control because it's a smaller screen by a bit and they went to nearest neighbor for scaling, instead of actual bilinear Apr 08 19:45:53 doesn't look much worse Apr 08 19:46:03 ah, yeah - that'll make the computations significantly easier .. Apr 08 19:46:18 surprising the DSS on the OMAP can't handle the scaling by itself ? Apr 08 19:46:31 unless you're not using the DSS layers since they're a little gimpy Apr 08 19:46:36 they are Apr 08 19:46:48 actually pixi has some built in 2d blitting, we use it a bit Apr 08 19:46:52 omap has no such hardware Apr 08 19:46:52 ah nice Apr 08 19:47:02 but it can't scale in hw Apr 08 19:47:26 invoking hardware for an internal operation like that isn't necessarilly always a win Apr 08 19:47:26 we ended up using our FPGA for a scaler in our system since the OMAP was sucking at it Apr 08 19:47:39 since yo uhave to deal with mapping the ram into the hws space, starting the operation, waitinf for it to complete, etc Apr 08 19:47:59 indeed Apr 08 19:48:02 doesn't necessarily buy you anything unless you can do something in parallel with it and it makes up for the overhead of setting it all up Apr 08 19:48:23 anyhoo, gotta go. meeting Apr 08 19:48:26 later Apr 08 19:54:42 is anyone running my alpha kernel at the moment? Apr 08 19:55:09 lol Apr 08 19:55:25 sbromwich: noop is retarded Apr 08 19:55:27 apparently DVFS is not supposed to work the way I have it set up Apr 08 19:55:33 why is noop retarded? Apr 08 19:55:55 the seek time on flash is, how can I put it, quite low Apr 08 19:56:15 cause it trades off faster throughput for more latency Apr 08 19:56:18 have you done any benchmark testing yourself to prove which is best? Apr 08 19:56:25 interactivity goes does Apr 08 19:56:26 down Apr 08 19:56:34 yes, that would be why you have to apply all the other settings I references Apr 08 19:56:40 ^s$^d$ Apr 08 19:56:59 sbromwich: i've been a kernel ricer for years... Apr 08 19:57:14 whats defaul in the kernel 99% of them time best for everything Apr 08 19:57:17 there's more to it than just the kernel, don't obsess over one thing Apr 08 19:58:02 99% of users have hard drives with spinning platters, too, which doesn't make any difference here Apr 08 19:58:16 I say again: have you got any benchmarks to prove either way? Apr 08 19:58:32 * oil gets popcorn? Apr 08 19:59:39 sbromwich: no benchmarks on the pre, but i've does plenty on normal desktops to know that everything you change creates a new negative effect somewhere Apr 08 19:59:58 and that it makes no sense to mess with the defaults unless you have a really good reason Apr 08 19:59:59 yes, PuffTheMagic, thankyou for stating the obvious. Apr 08 20:00:01 benchmarks. Apr 08 20:00:04 on flash. Apr 08 20:00:14 i've done them with ssd's Apr 08 20:00:16 or your complaint doesn't count. Apr 08 20:00:22 show them. Apr 08 20:00:27 I want to see the numbers. Apr 08 20:00:49 i think phoronix has done this too Apr 08 20:01:01 i dont need to prove it you Apr 08 20:01:06 cause i know the truth Apr 08 20:01:06 lol Apr 08 20:01:21 then perhaps don't complain at me and compile your own kernel? Apr 08 20:01:24 dedicated years of my life running a kernel patch set Apr 08 20:01:30 sbromwich: been there, done that Apr 08 20:01:45 * dtzWill is reading through various entries here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ricer . Is there a positive meaning somewhere? Apr 08 20:01:54 dtzWill: haha Apr 08 20:02:02 then why exactly are you complaining at me for compiling a kernel that matches my own workload and generously making it available to others? Apr 08 20:02:29 i just dont think the io sched is wise for the pre which is already laggy Apr 08 20:02:36 if you are compiling your own kernels on the pre you can compile it with whatever scheduler you desire Apr 08 20:02:39 u are gonna make it more laggy Apr 08 20:02:39 good grief. Apr 08 20:02:48 do you know *why* it's laggy? Apr 08 20:03:00 java Apr 08 20:03:07 "Ricer: from the latin word Ricarius meaning to suck at everything you attempt" Apr 08 20:03:08 haha Apr 08 20:03:11 keep trying Apr 08 20:03:17 oil: that site is awesome Apr 08 20:03:22 sbromwich: why dont u tell me Apr 08 20:03:28 dtzWill: I think I came up with a decent idea to distribute the custom fvwm setup. Apr 08 20:03:35 because I want to see what your conclusion is. Apr 08 20:03:42 another pair of eyes is always useful. Apr 08 20:04:01 and you appear to have compiled your own kernel for the pre so you *must* have seen the issue I have Apr 08 20:04:31 PuffTheMagic: I'm really really not trying to start anything but I assume you've seen http://funroll-loops.info/ too then? haha Apr 08 20:04:44 sbromwich: to be the only issue with the pre is how much mem is wasted with java shit Apr 08 20:04:49 dtzWill: yeah Apr 08 20:04:52 priceless Apr 08 20:04:58 PuffTheMagic: to be completely clear there is nothing personal, there are stupid people in every group haha Apr 08 20:05:01 :) Apr 08 20:05:10 dtzWill: i called my self an ex kernel ricer Apr 08 20:05:13 i know what the term means Apr 08 20:05:18 i run gentoo too Apr 08 20:05:28 and still think funroll-loops is hilarious Apr 08 20:05:29 PuffTheMagic: I know you do Apr 08 20:05:35 PuffTheMagic: good :) Apr 08 20:05:44 if by "java shit" you mean lunasysmgr, I will admit that it's not the speediest piece of code around, but it's doing a lot; it's also not the root cause of the lagginess. Apr 08 20:06:10 sbromwich: the laggyness is all is the userland Apr 08 20:06:15 is has nothing to do with kernel settings Apr 08 20:06:28 PuffTheMagic: I didn't see the 'ex' part which is why I was looking for a positive meaning. anyway don't mean to keep bringing it up Apr 08 20:06:30 *now* you're getting closer. Apr 08 20:06:31 is there roller coasters in userland? Apr 08 20:06:34 phil_bw_work: oh?? what's this now? Apr 08 20:06:36 i like roller coasters xD Apr 08 20:06:59 so what is it in userspace that could be causing the lag, if lunasysmgr is excluded? Apr 08 20:07:18 * PuffTheMagic is not playing 20 questions Apr 08 20:07:30 just pointless bitching? Apr 08 20:07:44 well, the .config is out there for you to come up with a better kernel Apr 08 20:07:56 *do* let me know when it's compiled, I would be interested to see your approach Apr 08 20:08:02 i would just go back to cfq Apr 08 20:08:10 and/or apply the new bfq Apr 08 20:08:19 and i would include compcache Apr 08 20:08:26 ah, so you're not *actually* doing any cross compilation? Apr 08 20:08:55 who doesnt cross compile? Apr 08 20:09:20 well, I'm trying to understand what you're telling me; either you are compiling kernels for the pre yourself, or you are not. Apr 08 20:09:26 any europeans here that can actually get into the app catalogue? Apr 08 20:09:31 I just finished several cross compiles Apr 08 20:09:41 dtzWill: this came to me while on the can. we setup our own debian repository to host the custom fvwm package (and any other custom stuff we do). Then a user can simply type apt-get install fvwm-pre and since it'll depend on fvwm it'll do all the work for them. Apr 08 20:09:42 sbromwich: i did months ago Apr 08 20:09:45 is that where jesus helps? Apr 08 20:09:49 sbromwich: it was the first projects i played with Apr 08 20:09:56 but found it boring Apr 08 20:10:00 and switch to other things Apr 08 20:10:00 * sbromwich gives chrisa a present from his remaining pile from the festival of cheap chocolate Apr 08 20:10:25 so... what's your point exactly PuffTheMagic? Apr 08 20:10:49 i thoght that my point was clear, i dont think noop is a good choice Apr 08 20:11:16 Recommending cfg over noop Apr 08 20:11:21 phil_bw_work: interesting. yeah building our own set of packages on top of debian is an option, although we still need to figure out how to integrate them with the device Apr 08 20:11:25 and I thought my point that you were welcome to compile your own kernel was a valid response, since noop works with my particular workload quite well Apr 08 20:11:39 chrisa: did u mean cfq... then yea Apr 08 20:11:46 er yes, cfq Apr 08 20:11:56 chrisa did you bench it? Apr 08 20:12:01 phil_bw_work: chroot is fixed size (either wastes space or you run out of it), LVM stuff is not a good idea for avg joe, and we're playing with some other ideas Apr 08 20:12:54 sbromwich: you are free to play with yours however u want, but even i made the kernel for you, there is no benchmark that could prove its better or worse Apr 08 20:13:02 dtzWill: yes there is still a missing step in between but this would still work in the interim as well. also as we update it a user could update on the fly with apt-get Apr 08 20:13:03 cause just about all benchmarks are worthless Apr 08 20:13:58 which ones aren't? Apr 08 20:14:47 idk know of any that are good Apr 08 20:14:51 but i didnt want to say all Apr 08 20:14:54 cause there could be Apr 08 20:15:10 so I'm new to the metadoctoring stuff, so be gentle: I have a used device, metadoctor'd past the first-use app, but still the device info refers to someone's phone number and addr, etc Apr 08 20:15:21 is that an issue, and/or is there some way to nuke that information? Apr 08 20:15:38 dtzWill: can u have 2 phones activated on the same esn? Apr 08 20:15:42 so that both ring? Apr 08 20:15:50 PuffTheMagic: I have no idea, I doubt it? Apr 08 20:15:54 i bet u can Apr 08 20:16:18 PuffTheMagic: I really don't know though, seems like that would cause issues? lol. wouldn't mind having two 3g devices though :P Apr 08 20:16:20 sprint messed my brother and dads phones a few months back Apr 08 20:16:23 switched up the numbers Apr 08 20:16:26 and when they put them back Apr 08 20:16:28 messed up Apr 08 20:16:37 and i think my brothers number was on both Apr 08 20:16:48 dtzWill: i think u should try it Apr 08 20:17:03 i cant see what harm it would cause Apr 08 20:17:08 or what rule it would break Apr 08 20:18:19 lol also should my phone be going "phone activated!" when i turn it on? feel like it shouldn't have been able to do that when I bought it Apr 08 20:18:30 presently I'd like to first make sure this isn't still tied to previous owner Apr 08 20:18:53 don't want to deal with that, even if he's at fault for selling a device not cleared properly Apr 08 20:19:04 * oil goes back to work Apr 08 20:21:37 VM improvements backported from 2.6.33? Are they available in the kernel / patch for the 1.4.0 release? Apr 08 20:21:54 PuffTheMagic: isn't playing with ESN's.. /very/ illegal? fraud, etc? Apr 08 20:22:07 its your esn Apr 08 20:22:13 just changing them is not illegal Apr 08 20:22:15 PuffTheMagic: http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=operations_5&id=cellular etc Apr 08 20:22:30 commiting fraud by changing/cloning them is illegal Apr 08 20:22:54 yeah u arent commiting fraud Apr 08 20:22:58 since u are just using your esn Apr 08 20:23:11 ah, I am definitely treading on water I'm not sure of--not that I don't trust you all but ... if this was an issue not like I can say "but Puff told me it was okay!" :) Apr 08 20:23:50 well a more technical question is how the devil would you even go about it Apr 08 20:24:05 dtzWill: when I got mine on a friday afternoon I was told not to turn it on until I told it to as it would try to autoprovision and cause issues Apr 08 20:24:43 sbromwich: interesting. well I got mine off ebay so i have no such instructions--when i got my real phone last summer I was told similar things--actually I was told it would turn itself on Apr 08 20:24:44 so I turned it on anyway, it was stuck complaining it couldn't activate for the weekend, monday it took a hard reboot and then it acquired Apr 08 20:25:02 this is with bell aliant, or whatever they're calling themselves these days Apr 08 20:25:33 sbromwich: curious, thanks for sharing. I should figure out these various pieces, although LOL that I called the guy that this number is for haha Apr 08 20:25:35 I still have the original packaging downstairs if you want me to dig it out? Apr 08 20:26:08 sbromwich: no, thanks. I think the issue is that I'm not trying to activate it, I just want to make sure it's not going to somehow cause issues with the previous owner's account, etc. Apr 08 20:26:12 I don't know how useful it would be to you since it's a cdn phone though Apr 08 20:26:17 *nod* Apr 08 20:26:36 sbromwich: unless you have information on that, in which case yeah, but I imagine you mean w/e documentation came with your..activated phone from your carrier Apr 08 20:26:40 from what I understood all that stuff is provisioned at the carrier side automatically Apr 08 20:26:48 sbromwich: thanks for offering though Apr 08 20:27:06 the box and packaging from the not-yet-activated phone, as was ;-) Apr 08 20:27:06 yeah, I should bug rwhitby or someone who worked on metadoctor, etc, about these details Apr 08 20:27:09 np :-) Apr 08 20:33:31 testing Apr 08 20:35:15 make mrproper... bye bye alpha kernel. Apr 08 20:35:53 always read that as "make mr proper" and feel sad there's no "ms proper" Apr 08 20:35:57 :P Apr 08 20:36:09 *grin* Apr 08 20:36:48 ISTR linus saying there is a cleaning product in .fi called mrproper (or something meaning that in finnish), hence the name Apr 08 20:37:03 their equivalent of mr clean or something I hazard Apr 08 20:37:23 hahaha i hope that's true Apr 08 20:37:59 http://www.tarunsadhana.com/index.php?entry=entry091027-151532 Apr 08 20:38:05 it would appear so Apr 08 20:44:53 current experiment: compile with io tracing disabled Apr 08 20:45:33 and, for the whingey whiners, all IO schedulers are enabled for them to do benchmark testing with for their own personal workload Apr 08 20:46:25 sbromwich: do u know how to apply patches and merge code fro git repos or do u just build? Apr 08 20:47:19 oh, I just spend all my time building for fun because I have nothing better to do with my life. Apr 08 20:47:35 http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/iphone_agreement_bans_flash_compiler for anyone looking for a giggle on the iphone kerfuffle. Apr 08 20:47:59 sbromwich: u should attempt to merge compcache Apr 08 20:48:04 that the pre could definately use Apr 08 20:48:17 what about the 2.6.33 backports? Apr 08 20:50:19 compressed cache? oh, PuffTheMagic, you're so very close to seeing what I see as the root cause with that. Apr 08 20:54:25 sbromwich: lol @ flash deal Apr 08 20:55:25 sbromwich: the same thing that dooms all pcs Apr 08 20:55:41 it's amazing how much like microsoft circa mid-90s Apple is now Apr 08 20:56:16 hmm, that makes me speculate on who the next apple is, idontwan2know Apr 08 20:56:26 Palm, hopefully Apr 08 20:56:40 who could possibly be making hardware that looks so nice and works so smoothly and has such a passionate fanbase? Apr 08 20:56:46 haha Apr 08 20:56:50 oh idontwan2know don't give the game away so soon! Apr 08 20:57:55 it's unfortunate that the market and the financial situation doesn't allow it, cause I know Palm could produce a tablet that would make the iPhone look like an etch a sketch Apr 08 20:58:44 I'm still prodding my veep friend at novell to get his guys involved Apr 08 20:59:00 the synergy stuff on the pre side would be a perfect fit for nds Apr 08 20:59:18 * mdklein_ pukes Apr 08 20:59:24 aww, that moderator is putting an end to your thread Apr 08 20:59:27 sorry, don't like nds :-p Apr 08 20:59:33 at least this post made it in there: http://forums.precentral.net/2368912-post48.html Apr 08 20:59:41 heh Apr 08 20:59:51 old nds did indeed suck arse Apr 08 20:59:56 it's waaaaay better now Apr 08 21:00:03 specially the integration with suse for provisioning Apr 08 21:00:27 yeah, aairman23 deserves a gold star Apr 08 21:01:42 I think I'm going to post on the webos-internals forum instead Apr 08 21:01:51 I suspect I might get more sane responses there Apr 08 21:02:03 not muppet users complaining about a thread in a dev forum Apr 08 21:06:10 http://venturebeat.com/2010/04/08/apple-bans-flash-to-iphone-conversions-in-apps/ Apr 08 21:06:13 fun Apr 08 21:06:32 old Apr 08 21:06:42 :) Apr 08 21:06:45 amused Apr 08 21:07:39 if i was adobe Apr 08 21:08:09 id pull photoshop off osx Apr 08 21:08:34 nah... just release new versions for windows first Apr 08 21:08:57 and lag the mac behind by a couple of months as "well, it's not as big of a market so there's no point us putting effort in", etc Apr 08 21:09:43 lol Apr 08 21:09:44 once all the graphic designers start going over to wintel en masse I suspect things will change Apr 08 21:09:54 or would change, at any rate Apr 08 21:10:21 "we'll bring photoshop back to mac when the iphone/pad get flash" :) Apr 08 21:11:06 compiled! (so obviously it must work) Apr 08 21:11:24 release it to users! Apr 08 21:11:29 12 hours on an alpha kernel, obviously time to change Apr 08 21:11:31 *grin* Apr 08 21:13:02 sbromwich: just put the kernel in preware Apr 08 21:13:22 sbromwich: in fact i can patch compache into the kernel git repo we have Apr 08 21:13:26 yeah, that should get it nicely tested Apr 08 21:13:29 and u can pull from that and build it with your kconfig Apr 08 21:13:36 Is there a driver that i need to install in order for my Pre Plus to be recognized by my computer? I am trying to install the Preware software/webos doctor. Apr 08 21:14:15 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Thu Apr 8 18:11:32 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 08 21:14:18 ftw Apr 08 21:15:29 hey, i just cleared ticket #1 from preware trac :) Apr 08 21:17:36 * halfhalo_T400 gives oilsworkn a cookie Apr 08 21:17:58 * oilsworkn eats it like cookie monster Apr 08 21:18:23 which means 99% of it just flys out in pieces Apr 08 21:18:40 * sbromwich has a box at work called omnomnomnom. Apr 08 21:20:14 how do i configure dropbear or other optware items i've installed through preware? Apr 08 21:20:48 i had some optware packages installed (like ez-ipupdate) using the command line and got it working Apr 08 21:21:09 but i'm trying to get the same one working that i installed through preware Apr 08 21:23:12 * oilsworkn hears crickets Apr 08 21:23:28 yeah, i think i might see crickets, too :) Apr 08 21:23:52 i don't suppose you've played with that stuff, oil? Apr 08 21:24:02 ipkg configure package Apr 08 21:24:20 nope Apr 08 21:24:25 and now i gotta go do real work Apr 08 21:24:39 sbromwich: wouldn't that be ipkg-opt ... ? Apr 08 21:24:59 sorry, yes, you're right, matt Apr 08 21:25:47 it's hatt, hehe, okay, thanks, i'll give that a shot Apr 08 21:25:57 would it matter that i already installed it through the command line? Apr 08 21:26:03 jesus I need new glasses, sorry Apr 08 21:26:21 mmm, not sure, I usually install stuff through command line anyway Apr 08 21:26:53 yeah, i just wanted to see the items without going through the command line :/ Apr 08 21:26:59 i may not be able to do that Apr 08 21:27:10 i just tried the configure and got "nothing to do" Apr 08 21:27:32 what are you trying to do? Apr 08 21:27:41 i want to get dropbear working again Apr 08 21:27:51 hrm Apr 08 21:27:53 and i figured since it was in the preware list, i'd give it a shot Apr 08 21:27:57 I use openssh myself Apr 08 21:28:10 i like the smaller footprint of dropbear Apr 08 21:28:18 but i may do openssh here soon Apr 08 21:28:26 palm-webos-device / # ipkg-opt list | grep dropbear Apr 08 21:28:27 dropbear - 0.52-5 - Lightweight SSH client and server system Apr 08 21:28:41 remove it and reinstall it maybe? Apr 08 21:31:05 Sbronowich are you there? Apr 08 21:31:20 me? Apr 08 21:31:33 no, the other one Apr 08 21:31:34 sorry for the spelling I am tired Apr 08 21:31:37 np Apr 08 21:32:08 * oilsworkn gets popcorn and waits for continuation of thread Apr 08 21:32:20 I apologize that this stupid thing got out of hand. I was woken at 6aM from someone I know who messed up there Pre trying to do it and I was upset Apr 08 21:33:14 no problem... I'm irritated more at the people who failed to completely read my posting and then went off at a complete tangent complaining about stuff I had already warned about Apr 08 21:33:24 I removed all posts and I hope this works out well for you, I just was upset I was involved in something I didnt want to be Apr 08 21:33:30 sorry, i think work doesn't like me on irc Apr 08 21:33:48 what did i miss after you suggested removing and reinstalling? Apr 08 21:34:11 I'm going to post in the webos internals sub forum in future, I think that might be more appropriate Apr 08 21:34:19 I sincerely apologize if I was abit PO'd as I am too tired dealing with all of the currenet kernel issues Apr 08 21:34:21 nothing, hatt Apr 08 21:34:29 apology accepted Apr 08 21:34:47 I wasn't impressed to read about people sending you hate mail, that was definitely uncalled for Apr 08 21:34:56 Thank You. If there is anything I can do to make up for my temper, please let me know Apr 08 21:35:18 you already have :-) Apr 08 21:35:25 I am so tired!!!!! Apr 08 21:35:43 I can recommend zopiclone and clonazepam Apr 08 21:35:47 morning Apr 08 21:35:52 lol Apr 08 21:36:12 morning, rod Apr 08 21:36:12 zanex works best...lol Apr 08 21:36:16 my doctor was not impressed at me getting 2 hours' sleep a night and insisted I take zopiclone, then clonazepam Apr 08 21:36:25 rwhitby :-) Apr 08 21:36:27 caj2008: I'm really dismayed to hear that someone sent you nastygrams. that's simply uncalled for. Apr 08 21:36:36 I have not had much sleep in 3 days Apr 08 21:36:50 My fault Apr 08 21:36:53 are you on call or something? Apr 08 21:36:58 any of the above meds works wonders. Apr 08 21:37:15 People know my email and numbver, my fault for being helpful in the past Apr 08 21:37:28 *grin* Apr 08 21:37:46 I think I need an iv drip right about now....lol Apr 08 21:37:51 people know better than to call me, they know I don't answer most of the time Apr 08 21:38:15 hence the reason I'm willing to push the envelope on compiling the kernel as bare as possible Apr 08 21:38:24 I tried to explain this morning but everything just got messed up Apr 08 21:39:15 mornings always suck Apr 08 21:39:54 There is a communication error with the ipk still that creates a 600 MHZ problem in some users. I have verified it. It is only corrected by .sh intsall, uninstall and ipk install then problem disappears Apr 08 21:40:07 forever Apr 08 21:40:26 Hi Jack, nice to seee ya Apr 08 21:41:07 is the installl sh executable by default? I don't recall Apr 08 21:41:39 I am keeping .sh files up. Want to go to an ipk that just has a simple on/off switch (awhile away) Apr 08 21:41:49 yes Apr 08 21:42:09 ok, not the obvious then :-/ Apr 08 21:42:11 how do i configure dropbear (is there a config and where?) Apr 08 21:42:12 hi caj2008 Apr 08 21:42:20 let me know if anyone has any ideas about this, it is a rwal problem and not made up Apr 08 21:42:32 are you getting an actual error message out of it at all? Apr 08 21:43:06 I'm happy to be a set of eyes looking at preinst/postinst scripts if it helps Apr 08 21:43:09 zsoc|away: were you able to help volcom34 with internet connection sharing (was reading back log in channel got sick of the back and fort figured id just ask) Apr 08 21:43:33 even normal install gives an error. I think the LunaSysMgr insalls but somehowe the rest of the file doesnt due to a communication issue so it doesnt go to designated frequency and stays at 600 Apr 08 21:43:45 HattCzech|work: I've never used it but if you've installed the man package maybe man dropbear might help? Apr 08 21:44:19 Can you give ipk a look, I would aprreciate it as I need some firggin sleep (pardon me) Apr 08 21:44:32 otherwise less /opt/lib/ipkg/info/dropbear.list to see what files there are manybe? Apr 08 21:44:44 what's the url for the package you're working on? Apr 08 21:45:13 just download ipk from server and take alook it would be appreciated. It is a real problem effecting 25% of users Apr 08 21:45:45 *cough* I'm just uploading a new kernel at the mo, sec ;-) Apr 08 21:46:13 I will send the ipk's to you, can you send me PM via email (will keep confidential) Apr 08 21:46:31 email vis PM I am tired Apr 08 21:46:42 quick ? anyone having problems with friendsbook ? Apr 08 21:47:24 caj2008: just msged you my email address Apr 08 21:47:27 You can extract the preinst/postinst scripts from the ipk Apr 08 21:47:38 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #9 Wed Mar 17 23:05:35 EDT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 08 21:47:41 kakaboudain Apr 08 21:47:49 something in debug is required Apr 08 21:47:50 no PREEMPT Apr 08 21:47:59 check the date stamp Apr 08 21:48:06 borked Apr 08 21:48:07 Apr 08 21:48:20 oh yeah.... Apr 08 21:49:32 anyone use friensbook in here Apr 08 21:49:59 what's the ipkg name? Apr 08 21:50:00 * oilsworkn doesn't even have a facebook account Apr 08 21:50:13 lol oilsworkn Apr 08 21:50:34 jeez this kernel feels so, so laggy now. Apr 08 21:50:42 and yet before it felt so fast. Apr 08 21:51:07 darn I wished someone did Apr 08 21:51:26 I think you might, DrFunk Apr 08 21:51:55 haha Apr 08 21:52:01 thank you. I hope everything goes smooth for you! Apr 08 21:52:13 sbromwich: thanks for the help Apr 08 21:52:54 DrFunk, you're welcome ;-) Apr 08 21:53:06 caj2008 is the package in the webos internals testing feed? Apr 08 21:53:30 I must be going crosseyed but I can't see any ipkgs that look obvious Apr 08 21:54:47 help I've fallen and can't get up Apr 08 21:55:23 Smubeht: http://www.mediafire.com/?kkymymnmyom <== 720 Apr 08 21:55:48 sbromwich: http://www.mediafire.com/?zmmzooyjl0i <== 800 Apr 08 21:56:00 Sorry last one was to you to sbromwich ;) Apr 08 21:56:03 ahhhh Apr 08 21:56:07 thanks Jack87 :-) Apr 08 21:58:40 sup jack Apr 08 21:59:23 :O Apr 08 21:59:34 that what i think it is jack? Apr 08 21:59:39 is* Apr 08 22:01:06 sorry i'm kind of new :) didn't know a overclock patch was available for 1.4.1 yet Apr 08 22:01:26 its still in the testing phase? Apr 08 22:02:26 the original one still works Apr 08 22:02:29 at your own risk, mind Apr 08 22:02:36 luwangui: the overlocking patch is here: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=kernels/patches.git;a=blob;f=overclocking/opp6-720-opp7-800-min-opp5.patch Apr 08 22:02:43 lol Apr 08 22:02:49 and if you break your phone... you get to keep both pieces! Apr 08 22:02:52 that's how nice we are. Apr 08 22:02:52 hi DrFunk Apr 08 22:03:01 if you're looking for an end-user installable item, there are PreCentral threads that have those Apr 08 22:03:28 the links Jack87 just posted are ipkgs but caj2008 said they fail for 25% of the users Apr 08 22:03:30 wow thanks sbromwich :) Apr 08 22:03:40 I'm just going over the scripts now to see if there's anything obvious Apr 08 22:03:46 rwhitby: you see my comments on preware tickets #3 and #23? Apr 08 22:03:58 Jack87: shouldn't you link to the posts with the disclaimers instead of raw ipkg links? Apr 08 22:04:02 ok, well i've been a little hezitative installing it Apr 08 22:04:27 oilsworkn: yeah, just catching up on overnight email now Apr 08 22:04:41 rwhitby: the links were directed to sbromwich Apr 08 22:04:46 he was wanting the ipks Apr 08 22:04:49 i'd very much like to get into the whole background developing scene Apr 08 22:05:03 i think they can be cleared out, but idk, they deal with the new service Apr 08 22:05:06 besides im not a fan of ipk install anyway at least not in that form Apr 08 22:05:10 but i need to read a bit more i think :) Apr 08 22:05:16 luwangui: have you ever done anything like "./configure && make"? Apr 08 22:06:08 sorry guys im only catching glimse of these conversations as i try to read weeks of back log haha Apr 08 22:06:16 hi, i have aproblem with scrim multi patch for o2. i installed this one with 1.4.0 and now with 1.4.1 i always get "unreversed patch detected! ignore -R? [n] 2 out of 2 hunks ignored -- saving rejects to file usr/palm/applications/com.palm.app.browser/stylesheets/browser.css.rej Apr 08 22:06:34 what can i do to get this patch off my phone? Apr 08 22:06:44 does optware have its own version of sed by any chance? Apr 08 22:06:51 sui: probably Apr 08 22:07:17 you mean compiling? Apr 08 22:07:28 sui: emergency patch recovery, or if that fails, webos repair tool, or if that fails webos doctor Apr 08 22:07:35 is it possible to do this with ipkg from command line? Apr 08 22:07:36 I have a suspicion that the unpathed call to sed may be calling a different version of sed than expected in the ipkg kernel scripts Apr 08 22:08:03 luwangui: if you can tell me what it does you pass the IQ test and I'll tell you how to boot kernels one-shot with no risk to your device Apr 08 22:08:09 sbromwich: it's unlikely that more than 10 people in total have sed installed from optware Apr 08 22:08:13 i'm studying to become an electrical engineer, so must of my programming experience has been directly with hardware Apr 08 22:08:19 ah ok Apr 08 22:08:23 I'd say that suffices :-) Apr 08 22:08:34 hehe Apr 08 22:08:36 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Research_Pre_Boot_Process Apr 08 22:08:45 First, log in with novaterm and run tellbootie recover. Apr 08 22:08:51 novacom boot mem:// < uImage-kexecboot-2.6.24-r50-palmpre.bin Apr 08 22:08:53 rwhitby: when i use epr or doctor i'll lose all my installed patches or data, hm? Apr 08 22:09:08 sui: yes Apr 08 22:09:20 that will squirt the kernel in to a ramdisk over usb and boot that kernel, next time you reboot the device it will reboot the current kernel installed on your pre Apr 08 22:09:42 the next step is to get a kernel image Apr 08 22:09:45 ok neat Apr 08 22:10:00 ar x whatever.ipkg and you should be able to dig the kernel out of those tarballs Apr 08 22:10:25 rwhitby: i don't want to do that. is there any possibility to use "ipkg --force-remove-patch com.scrim-multi.pach? Apr 08 22:10:27 or if you're feeling like being really bleeding edge: http://sbromwich.cf3n.com/ Apr 08 22:10:51 sui: that would remove the record in the ipkg database, but would not modify any webOS files Apr 08 22:10:59 read my posts on precentral.net though, you will probably need to novaterm in as soon as novacomd pops up in /var/log/messages on your pc and set cpu frequency settings Apr 08 22:11:02 your website sucks Apr 08 22:11:21 needs more cat pictures Apr 08 22:11:21 lol Apr 08 22:11:30 rwhitby: thanks for the info Apr 08 22:11:34 http://www.fop.ns.ca/pre/tnb.pl will give you some ideas (don't use the fstab bit, it's broken, but you might want to implement what it suggests) Apr 08 22:12:03 oilsworkn: I shall upload a cat picture of your choice next time I have a useful working kernel Apr 08 22:12:26 hmm i should get more into linux Apr 08 22:12:52 sbromwich: and rounded corners, i hear those are in these days Apr 08 22:13:17 apparently is deprecated now Apr 08 22:13:22 should probably just take the leap and solo-boot it lol.. but alas i am too lazy Apr 08 22:13:51 I'm working my way towards getting a realtime kernel on there Apr 08 22:17:27 a realtime kernel? :D Apr 08 22:21:09 realtime preempt Apr 08 22:21:23 nice :) Apr 08 22:21:31 if it works ;-) Apr 08 22:23:43 so who is going to patch folders into the launcher? Apr 08 22:23:47 xD Apr 08 22:24:21 did that make sense caj2008? Apr 08 22:24:50 yes, I sent you a PM please read when you get a chance and thank you again Apr 08 22:25:06 k, sec Apr 08 22:25:32 ok give me 5 Apr 08 22:26:23 As sdon as the final fixed kernel ipk is served by Preware custom feed I will end my involvement with P/C. I need to focus on my real job and family and this project just consumed me Apr 08 22:26:38 ok, Is Blinking Notifications native to webos now? I'm confused and haven't seen it work since updating Apr 08 22:26:49 but I have the option in Screen and Lock Apr 08 22:26:54 yes blinking is native' Apr 08 22:27:32 * oilsworkn wants patch to turn it off Apr 08 22:27:44 lol Apr 08 22:27:53 lol Apr 08 22:28:19 I was thinking of a patch to turn something off that was an improvement, oh I remember now, to put the battery line back in on a megamix, lol Apr 08 22:28:30 so I can get temperature.... Apr 08 22:28:30 How is everyone today Apr 08 22:29:03 ok, well blinking is working for calls, let me try texts Apr 08 22:29:07 Jason is making a new patch to turn off the Pre when it hits critical temp! Apr 08 22:29:07 supposed to blink right? Apr 08 22:29:24 it is supposed to blink' Apr 08 22:30:13 Rod are you there? Apr 08 22:30:43 caj2008: www.fop.ns.ca/pre/com.unixpsycho.webos141_800MHzkernel_armv7.ipk Apr 08 22:31:07 720 as well? Apr 08 22:31:18 that's just the first one to test it works Apr 08 22:31:40 ok, I'm fine on blinks.... Apr 08 22:31:58 what was the link for 720 again? Apr 08 22:32:01 ok thanks will give it a go Apr 08 22:32:22 unfortunately I dont have that issue need to find testers Apr 08 22:32:36 and I have four Pre's...lol Apr 08 22:32:42 nice! Apr 08 22:32:53 caj2008: yep, I'm here Apr 08 22:33:26 interesting, most of the posts from the kernel thread have been deleted by the moderators Apr 08 22:33:27 I test GSM/cdma and preplus and a backup for me (because I heat pre in oven to find temp limits) Apr 08 22:34:06 I remove my posts and asked them to focus just on Steves new kernel, the way it was supposed to be Apr 08 22:34:15 I just put PATH=/bin:/sbin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin in preinst/postinst/PmPostinstall/PmPreremove Apr 08 22:34:32 I saw...fingers crossed Apr 08 22:34:37 caj2008: fair enough - I respect the moderator's decision on any forums in which I participate Apr 08 22:34:50 I just used to use a hairdryer at USR Apr 08 22:34:50 I should get around to testing it, it is 90F here these days in the shade Apr 08 22:35:13 lucky Apr 08 22:35:24 I was pissed at being woken up over when I had so little sleep. I am sorry about the exchanges with you, uncharacteristic of me Apr 08 22:35:46 np Apr 08 22:36:02 Rod I also apologize Apr 08 22:36:04 it made for a good read :) Apr 08 22:36:10 lol Apr 08 22:36:22 like a soap opera Apr 08 22:36:29 TBH I was more irritated at the people who posted without bothering to read what I wrote in the first place Apr 08 22:37:07 I cant believe someone called me at 6 aM to complian they messed up install. Your instructions were very straight forward Apr 08 22:37:25 I tried to make it obvious for someone intelligent Apr 08 22:37:35 calling you about it is unacceptable though. Apr 08 22:37:39 They thought I was responsible and yelled at me, can ya believe that (need to make my number unmisted now) Apr 08 22:37:57 caj2008: you have no need to apologise to me. you didn't call me names or anything in the thread, it was a robust discussion of differing opinions. one shouldn't be afraid of that in my opinion. Apr 08 22:38:20 also whichever gormy sent you hatemail deserves to be named and shamed Apr 08 22:38:31 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #9 Wed Mar 17 23:05:35 EDT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 08 22:38:32 ISomehow it got out of hand and I should have disengaged immediately...my fault Apr 08 22:38:39 kakaboudain #2 Apr 08 22:39:55 Making a fancy on/off switch install and uninstall for the kernels in the same app as a final project before I leave P?C Apr 08 22:40:00 srsly caj2008 don't worry about it Apr 08 22:40:43 I do want to see it in custom feed before I go. Got over 1000 people who depnd on me and this just took over my life Apr 08 22:41:04 *grin* Apr 08 22:41:18 that would be why I keep turning down rod's offer of commit access ;-) Apr 08 22:41:48 One more month and I am done...still love Palm (have to divorce her though)....lol Apr 08 22:42:02 sbromwich: yet you're still here ;) Apr 08 22:42:16 by force??? lol Apr 08 22:42:27 not allowed # at work at the moment Apr 08 22:42:55 understood, good policy so I understand from this morning now Apr 08 22:43:07 *nod* Apr 08 22:43:47 when I literally (and not figuratively) have the power of life and death over several hundred people the hospital admins want to make sure I'm ready to roll ;-) Apr 08 22:43:56 Wouldnt it be funny if I got the Nexus one after this...sacrilage but never never an iphone Apr 08 22:44:56 I made designed several drugs and my life usded to be like this all of the time. I want to go back to simpler existence Apr 08 22:45:22 *grin* Apr 08 22:45:24 I'm on holidays at the beach starting monday for a week :) Apr 08 22:45:28 I think they call that "retirement" Apr 08 22:45:38 I'm happy not to be in the .com world any more Apr 08 22:45:47 good for you....Iwant to watch my kid grow up more (my plan) Apr 08 22:45:51 nice, rwhitby :-) Apr 08 22:46:28 Running a compnay in Singpaore is worse than this though...lol Apr 08 22:46:52 I would think so Apr 08 22:47:10 I catually like aking vdeos, that is what I enjoyed most believe it or not Apr 08 22:47:22 from this experience Apr 08 22:47:53 video editing is really cool..harder than Linuc and unix I have found to do it artfully Apr 08 22:48:48 be back in a while need to find 600 guinea pigs!! Apr 08 22:48:56 600 MHz I mean Apr 08 22:49:43 good luck Apr 08 22:50:20 sbromwich doesn't bother with that step, he just releases it Apr 08 22:50:29 :) Apr 08 22:51:03 ipk looks like too much hard work to me Apr 08 22:51:07 all that typing and stuff Apr 08 22:53:17 sbromwich: someone should create some sort of installer Apr 08 22:54:20 Hi All Apr 08 22:57:55 hi senor_goose Apr 08 22:58:23 rwhitby that would be *awesome* Apr 08 22:58:37 I think it should be written in C rather than using the java on the pre though Apr 08 22:58:43 can i do vpn over pptp? Apr 08 22:58:44 my guess is you will get a bit of a speed increase Apr 08 22:58:45 sbromwich: yeah, I agree. Apr 08 22:58:47 * sbromwich nods, sagely Apr 08 22:59:02 sbromwich: probably double, by my estimations Apr 08 22:59:12 Mousey: I don't believe MPPE is enabled by default Apr 08 22:59:31 I bet the spinner could run faster too, rwhitby Apr 08 22:59:36 hmmmmmmmmmm Apr 08 22:59:42 faster spinners ftw Apr 08 23:00:23 palm-webos-device /proc # gunzip -c config.gz | grep -i mppe Apr 08 23:00:23 # CONFIG_PPP_MPPE is not set Apr 08 23:00:23 palm-webos-device /proc # Apr 08 23:00:48 if one were to compile a custom kernel with MPPE enabled it would probably work Apr 08 23:00:54 You guys mind if I ask some questions regarding the Pre Plus? Apr 08 23:01:11 the pptp masq module is compiled in by default so if you're doing it tethered it *might* work Apr 08 23:01:29 senor_goose you can ask whatever you like :-) Apr 08 23:02:42 sui generis. Apr 08 23:02:50 I just got a Verizon Palm Pre Plus today - Their promotion for free wireless hotspot was just too good to pass up. I already have a Motorola Droid which I have enjoyed so far so I am trying to decide whihc one to stay with. Apr 08 23:03:16 :-| Apr 08 23:03:58 senor_goose: note that this is the unofficial "-internals" channel - the official Palm channel is #webos. Not forcing you away or anything, just letting you know the context in which any responses will be given. Apr 08 23:04:04 senor_goose the palm is more open than the droid... a friend of mine is working on hacking it and implies it's somewhat of a bugger Apr 08 23:04:12 "it" being the moto Apr 08 23:04:22 Thats OK ... I figured the is a Pro Palm or webos channel :) Apr 08 23:04:53 senor_goose: this is mainly a pro-the-linux-environment-under-webos channel ;) Apr 08 23:05:13 I guess my concern is the future life of the Web OS. Will it continue to be supported? Apr 08 23:05:14 but the frills that Palm put on top are not bad either Apr 08 23:05:34 senor_goose: crystal ball time. Apr 08 23:05:41 I personally think highly of the WebOS. I love the ability to switch between apps and close them. Apr 08 23:06:26 Surely nobodyy can see the future but I was thinking you folks might have a better idea than most on where it could be headed. Apr 08 23:06:45 the phone is open enough that people are getting X running on it Apr 08 23:06:48 i doubt palm is thinking "oh, apple added multi-tasking, might as well take our toys and go home" Apr 08 23:07:01 which means in theory it will be possible to run opie or gpe Apr 08 23:07:25 tellbootie recover Apr 08 23:07:28 That is good to hear. How to you guys like the hardware of the Pre PLus? Does it run WebOS well? Apr 08 23:07:31 gah Apr 08 23:07:38 only have the pre in .ca Apr 08 23:08:43 I have been looking at some threads at Precentral.net that talk about Patching the OS and installing home brew apps Apr 08 23:08:50 damn, bounced again Apr 08 23:09:05 senor_goose: you should Apr 08 23:09:36 oilsworkn: Thanks Apr 08 23:10:19 SHould I let the Palm Pre update to the latest version before attempting patching? Does one need to obtain root access first? Apr 08 23:10:26 senor_goose: I'm currently compiling kernels for the pre, that's how open it is Apr 08 23:10:48 sbromwich: That is pretty open alright :) Apr 08 23:11:03 I would update to the latest version myself Apr 08 23:11:05 senor_goose: haha its simple palm pre plus Apr 08 23:11:16 it's like like an iphone where you have to play silly buggers "rooting" Apr 08 23:11:22 put that droid away for 29 days and see if you can stick with the pre crew Apr 08 23:11:25 I just bought the Pre Plus today and it has not yet updated to the latest OTA update. Apr 08 23:11:45 senor_goose: get in a wifi zone and manually run the update Apr 08 23:11:55 i think verizon is still on 140 Apr 08 23:12:33 (though i could be completely wrong) Apr 08 23:12:35 OK .. so it sounds like it is OK to let the Pre Plus update to the latest version of the Verizon software. Can one proceed with Patches after that? Apr 08 23:12:42 yup Apr 08 23:12:58 Thank you very much all Apr 08 23:13:14 you can in theory patch and then update, but I'm paranoid and would update first ;-) Apr 08 23:13:17 YAMW Apr 08 23:13:24 senor_goose: you jsut got the palm.. only you cant tell what you want to keep but like i said put away the droid for a bit and magically you will know the answer seek Apr 08 23:14:03 senor_goose: go read the forums and wiki's for there is plenty out there with more detailed instructions Apr 08 23:14:04 I know with the Motorola Droid that if one updated via the latest OTA that rooted becomes MUCH more difficult. Apr 08 23:14:15 trust me no one here is going to tell you anything different then what is already posted Apr 08 23:14:38 Would you mind posting the link to the Wiki you are referring to? Apr 08 23:15:00 webosinternals.org Apr 08 23:15:14 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Main_Page Apr 08 23:15:58 how odd, "make menuconfig" doesn't seem to execute on my atom when compiled for arm. Why could that possibly be? Apr 08 23:16:21 senor_goose: and as always when hackery is involved its all at your own risk Apr 08 23:16:32 both processors start with "a" so surely they are compatible? Apr 08 23:16:35 meh Apr 08 23:16:35 senor_goose: there is no "rooting" in the android sense with webos Apr 08 23:16:42 Jack87: Understood. That is what I figured Apr 08 23:16:47 i have no clue how to download this preware stuff Apr 08 23:17:04 "rooting" on the pre is typing in the konami code into universal search Apr 08 23:17:05 lol Apr 08 23:17:06 oilsworkn: Really. Does the user already have root access? Apr 08 23:17:12 tatibabyx3: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Main_Page Apr 08 23:17:14 senor_goose: yeah Apr 08 23:17:36 you just have to flip on devmode for command line access Apr 08 23:17:47 thanks Apr 08 23:17:54 which is the konami code Apr 08 23:17:55 lol Apr 08 23:18:29 or type in... webos20090606 isn't it? Apr 08 23:18:35 oilsworkn: Now THAT is the simplest rooting method I ever saw. Too bad other manufacturers did follow suite. Apr 08 23:18:35 something like that Apr 08 23:18:49 whatever the release date was Apr 08 23:19:06 but thats far more difficult to remember then upupdowndownleftirghtleftirghtbastart Apr 08 23:19:21 Thank you so much all for your advice and taking the time to answer my questions. Apr 08 23:19:30 what is Novacom Apr 08 23:19:47 Is there any other IRC channels that might exist for asking Palm Pre related questions? Apr 08 23:20:14 #webos is palms channel Apr 08 23:20:33 sbromwich: that works but thats not konami code Apr 08 23:20:34 but thats more geared for development Apr 08 23:20:42 upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart Apr 08 23:20:50 hehe type that!!!!! tell me what you get Apr 08 23:20:54 novacom is the interface daemon to talk to the pre over usb, you can then run novaterm for direct terminal access Apr 08 23:21:57 #webos #webos-watercooler ? ummm.. there is more #palm Apr 08 23:23:02 #wirc is the mobile wirc client for webos Apr 08 23:23:03 What development tools do people use for WebOS? I have been developing some small "non-market place" apps for clients on Android OS. Apr 08 23:23:08 Only if you find your way onto our internal irc server Apr 08 23:23:25 * halfhalo_T400 is now going to attempt to find that irc server... Apr 08 23:23:43 halfhalo_T400: lead the way Apr 08 23:23:57 shoot no one is at 600 anymore. I need to wait Apr 08 23:24:05 i hate this. it is hard. Apr 08 23:24:13 * oilsworkn fallows behind jack Apr 08 23:24:47 caj2008: we are seeking the internal irc server Apr 08 23:24:48 but for now Apr 08 23:24:50 time to go home Apr 08 23:24:59 * Jack87 needs to go home! Apr 08 23:25:01 I like konamining Apr 08 23:25:17 caj2008: easier for me to remember Apr 08 23:25:19 new verb Apr 08 23:26:02 * Jack87 sees the cleaning lady come and stares at him Apr 08 23:26:20 her? Apr 08 23:27:40 must be heshe Apr 08 23:27:57 hehe Apr 08 23:28:11 looking at websites residing on the server of other websites is fun Apr 08 23:28:11 ladyboy luv u lang tyme fife dollah Apr 08 23:28:32 hehe Apr 08 23:28:37 its confusing okay! Apr 08 23:28:38 bad Apr 08 23:29:12 Jack I always knew you were confused..maybe you need to wget her I mean him Apr 08 23:34:04 hm, what was the thread with the 800mhz cfq kernel? Apr 08 23:34:53 dunno but I'm working on one with aaaaaall the schedulers enabled for those who wish to benchmark ;-) Apr 08 23:35:34 chrisa: most of the thread has been deleted by mods, but the technical bits are still at http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html Apr 08 23:35:52 I don't think that has cfq compiled in Apr 08 23:36:04 ICBW though Apr 08 23:36:11 weird - they deleted most of the posts ? Apr 08 23:36:14 that seems strange Apr 08 23:36:24 sbromwich: oh, sorry, I misread the question. Apr 08 23:36:42 it looks like the posts that were largely content free/irrelevant got deleted Apr 08 23:36:52 I'm not complaininining. Apr 08 23:37:00 chrisa: are you referring to the kernel that's being tested/used by lots of people, or the new experimental one? Apr 08 23:37:29 chrisa: are the ext3 se labels required? Apr 08 23:37:37 bpadalino: dieter is reviewing the situation now according to his edit on the first post Apr 08 23:37:47 ah, i just read his latest post in the thread Apr 08 23:38:33 did i miss something today? besides new kernels sources? Apr 08 23:38:39 ohhhhhhhh yes Apr 08 23:38:49 what? Apr 08 23:39:26 a rather excessive pissing contest on precentral.net about the kernel I posted up last night that ended up with most of the posts getting deleted ;-) Apr 08 23:39:32 i am trying to patch the new sources... just started. should be trivial Apr 08 23:39:43 2.3.33 VM backport? Apr 08 23:39:45 oh??? you starting trouble? ;) Apr 08 23:39:48 2.6.33 rather Apr 08 23:39:52 not I ;-) Apr 08 23:40:26 who did a backport? Apr 08 23:40:31 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240716-800-mhz-kernel-pre-empt-no-debug-noop-io-scheduler-ondemand-cpu-scheduler.html is what remains Apr 08 23:40:41 apparently that's what is current at palm Apr 08 23:40:49 ah Apr 08 23:40:59 I am assuming that's what will be in 1.4.1/.1 Apr 08 23:41:16 is there a project page for the webOS x server? Apr 08 23:41:24 turns out a FOAF works at palm. Apr 08 23:41:55 foaf ? Apr 08 23:42:04 friend of a friend Apr 08 23:42:13 ah Apr 08 23:42:29 well i am patching 1.4.1.1 Apr 08 23:42:34 doesnt look too bad Apr 08 23:42:45 ah they posted the packages Apr 08 23:42:46 nice Apr 08 23:42:50 oh, kernel source is up Apr 08 23:42:53 Linux palm-webos-device 2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 #2 PREEMPT Thu Apr 8 20:40:22 ADT 2010 armv7l unknown Apr 08 23:42:55 ftw Apr 08 23:42:59 i am already amazed at the deleted thread... i'm glad i dont login to P|C anymore Apr 08 23:43:06 heh Apr 08 23:43:26 I'll update the uber-kernel makefile to pull the latest source Apr 08 23:43:36 oh that explains a few things Apr 08 23:43:38 rwhitby: yep. i just got them... the patch rejected so i am cleaning it up Apr 08 23:43:58 he told me I should be working on the 2.6.33 VM backport, and I told him all there was on there was 1.4.0... Apr 08 23:44:16 who said that? an l-user? Apr 08 23:44:50 er Apr 08 23:44:50 no. Apr 08 23:45:36 RagingMind: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Application:X but it's bare so far Apr 08 23:45:40 sbromwich: ah, so 1.4.1 got posted as a result. nice Apr 08 23:45:44 RagingMind: if you have questions I can try to help, etc Apr 08 23:46:36 dtzWill, mostly I was looking for a place I could check back to periodically for updates on how stuff is going Apr 08 23:46:58 uNiXpSyChO: www.fop.ns.ca/pre/config_sbromwich_unixpsycho_beta_preempt_noblockiotrace_nolabels_win is my latest working config Apr 08 23:47:02 RagingMind: unfortunately documentation is not my strong suit, at least not while actively developing these things. Apr 08 23:47:04 without having to look for random postings from certain people in here Apr 08 23:47:15 RagingMind: understood Apr 08 23:47:41 sbromwich: errr what's all this about 2.6.33? You think palm'll use it? and what's the VM piece you're backporting? Apr 08 23:48:11 dtzWill, I'll offer to help in what ways I can once I do get a Pre. I'm not a coder at all but I do have a knack for breaking things ;) Apr 08 23:48:26 RagingMind: always need those people :D Apr 08 23:48:26 oh my... what ugly patches palm put in!!! Apr 08 23:48:32 dtzWill: apparently the latest patch has some VM backports from 2.6.33 Apr 08 23:48:39 when looking at the preware install guides, it says to download the latest prewareinstaller.jar. Should I download the prewarealpha file? Apr 08 23:48:46 sbromwich: oh okay I'll take a look. ty Apr 08 23:49:00 DirkNight: only if you want to test the alpha version Apr 08 23:49:27 the talk of VM just got me thinking about qemu or DOSbox on webOS... that sounds like fun Apr 08 23:49:43 RagingMind: I have a branch of qemu, as well as kvm-arm for the pre :) Apr 08 23:49:49 RagingMind: both arm on arm and x86 on arm :) Apr 08 23:50:47 if I remember the way DOSbox work I think it would be ill suited anyway, but it's been ages since I looked into that project Apr 08 23:51:01 RagingMind: oh i think someone did dosbox a while back? Apr 08 23:51:17 dtzWill, picture of windows 98 booting on your Pre? :D Apr 08 23:51:55 RagingMind: it runs SO terribly slow, just booting a basic i386 linux kernel takes ages. I have boot times recorded somewhere Apr 08 23:52:41 RagingMind: tty-linux, i486, took longer than 2k seconds and we gave up at that point. :) Apr 08 23:52:49 what about that super stripped down W98 that was floating around that would boot in 10 seconds on real (older) hardware? Apr 08 23:53:27 uNiXpSyChO: are you forward-porting the patch in git? Apr 08 23:53:30 *sigh* crushing my dreams of making people go WTF Apr 08 23:53:38 RagingMind: http://minimalinux.org/ttylinux/ take a look at that. /that/ took 30 min+ lol Apr 08 23:53:41 ==fail Apr 08 23:53:45 ==beyond unusable Apr 08 23:54:20 dammit I think I locked myself out of the site phil_bw set up for me... does anyone have some hosting space they can put a kernel up for me? Apr 08 23:54:21 when installing preware I get to the Loading Palm-catalog part and my pre appears to stop making progress Apr 08 23:54:39 uNiXpSyChO: if you do, just put a 'v1.4.1-0' tag on i Apr 08 23:54:40 t Apr 08 23:54:53 DirkNight: yeah, you need 0.9.33 to get past that Apr 08 23:55:06 DirkNight: or just disable the feed from the menu manage feeds Apr 08 23:55:45 sbromwich: I can if you want Apr 08 23:56:10 thanks uNiXpSyChO :-) Apr 08 23:56:14 i am a little upset i couldn't figure out how to fix that last part of termial being screwy Apr 08 23:56:30 http://www.fop.ns.ca/uImage.preempt.allsched.noblkiotrace.noext3label Apr 08 23:56:39 bpadalino: menu snafu? Apr 08 23:56:42 yeah Apr 08 23:56:43 says not found Apr 08 23:56:53 dammit, if only I could type. Apr 08 23:56:58 http://www.fop.ns.ca/pre/uImage.preempt.allsched.noblkiotrace.noext3label Apr 08 23:56:59 rwhitby: ty Apr 08 23:57:01 dtzWill: yeah Apr 08 23:57:06 www.fop.ns.ca/pre/config_sbromwich_unixpsycho_beta_preempt_noblockiotrace_nolabels_win is the .config for it Apr 08 23:57:23 dtzWill: have you got any idea what might be going on ? Apr 08 23:59:28 up on http://unixpsycho.com/..... Apr 08 23:59:40 bpadalino: other than memory corruption, either caused by a miswritten class/bad memcpy/etc, or by not respecting the manner in which you handle memory given to you by NPP/don't free it properly Apr 08 23:59:41 thanks :-) Apr 09 00:00:04 bpadalino: but other than memory corruption I don't know, haven't been able to get useful information. Apr 09 00:00:08 sbromwich: mediafire is free Apr 09 00:00:47 anyone know of an IVA2 bug? Apr 09 00:00:52 dtzWill: i definitely don't like the way they wrote it with the references from pointers and whatnot Apr 09 00:01:09 bpadalino: yeah that made me a little sad too Apr 09 00:01:20 iva2 is probably pretty bug ridden :( Apr 09 00:01:20 so now's my chance to stir the pot: should I put this kernel in the webos internals forum, or on the developer forum? Apr 09 00:01:25 bpadalino: but I don't think the font actually has anything to do with it--although I never finished confirming that theory Apr 09 00:01:37 bpadalino: so..nevermind that comment since I can't/haven't proven it yet Apr 09 00:01:41 developers Apr 09 00:02:05 dtzWill: there was definitely something weird going on with that font stuff .. Apr 09 00:02:05 i see an iva2 patch but dont know why they changed it... they mention bug. i'll leave it be for now. Apr 09 00:02:25 i wonder if you run Luna under gdb and you load up the terminal if you're able to set a watch point on that variable Apr 09 00:02:25 sbromwich: preware, now. include it as a dependency for patches :) Apr 09 00:02:30 an see when it gets changed Apr 09 00:02:37 bpadalino: if I could I'd love to just valgrind the bugger :) Apr 09 00:02:42 hehe Apr 09 00:02:48 *cue zsoc teasing me about loving valgrind* Apr 09 00:02:54 so valgrind doesn't run? Apr 09 00:03:08 i've never used it before Apr 09 00:03:21 bpadalino: doesn't support ARM in last stable I don't think. there are patches floating, and I think their SVN has support for it, but short answer is 'no' Apr 09 00:03:27 dtzWill I like the way you think Apr 09 00:03:32 ah that sucks :( Apr 09 00:04:05 bpadalino: but running it in gdb straight up might be useful, idk Apr 09 00:04:34 so the question becomes, work on schematic or try to debug terminal ? Apr 09 00:04:37 sbromwich: I think Dieter made it clear that it's welcome on the same forum with an extra disclaimer Apr 09 00:07:39 ahhhh. missing things are back Apr 09 00:07:45 building new kernels Apr 09 00:10:30 oh I've got a disclaimer all right. Apr 09 00:10:45 I'm waiting to see if it gets trapped by a "STOP SHOUTING" filter. Apr 09 00:11:35 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240874-read-thread-if-you-want-try-destroy-your-phone-new-kernel.html Apr 09 00:11:49 do please let me know your thoughts on whether I was emphatic enough. Apr 09 00:12:46 LOL!!! Apr 09 00:13:21 I want to see someone complain I wasn't clear enough now. Apr 09 00:13:29 (probably aairman23) Apr 09 00:13:37 steve! where is the bold font damn it! Apr 09 00:15:07 sbromwich: dieter said and i quote "please put warnings in boldface" :-) Apr 09 00:15:23 tsk. Apr 09 00:15:29 I shall try, but I am no graphic designer. Apr 09 00:15:42 haha Apr 09 00:15:57 im only teasing you.... "[18:13] I want to see someone complain I wasn't clear enough now." Apr 09 00:16:09 someone had to be the someone Apr 09 00:17:05 how's that? Apr 09 00:17:13 * Jack87 likes very much Apr 09 00:17:17 does that make it any... "clearer"? ;-) Apr 09 00:17:54 When i pressed alt+f4 my computer blew up Apr 09 00:18:20 sbromwich: there's no 'alt' key on my MBP - what should I do? Apr 09 00:18:26 but i can live with that phone is oka Apr 09 00:18:34 oh, hang on, I found it. PEBKAC Apr 09 00:18:41 the option key is alt silly Apr 09 00:18:59 that was lucky, I was lost there for a minute and I could have killed my computer as a result of following sbromwich's instructions Apr 09 00:19:08 lol Apr 09 00:19:24 haha Apr 09 00:19:26 rwhitby: pull the power cord out and remove the battery Apr 09 00:19:49 sbromwich: I can do neither. Apr 09 00:20:01 it's a unibody unplugged at the moment Apr 09 00:20:12 rwhitby: you are screwed! Apr 09 00:20:12 well then Apr 09 00:20:19 my car's battery is dead... Apr 09 00:20:37 halfhalo_T400: i guess we will never find that irc server Apr 09 00:20:44 Nope.... Apr 09 00:21:06 rwhitby: get some iron filings and feed them into the air intake Apr 09 00:22:00 sbromwich: I can't find the air intake on my Pre - is that the thing with the flimsy cover on the right hand side? Apr 09 00:22:26 take the back cover off Apr 09 00:22:33 remove the battery Apr 09 00:22:38 immerse device in iron filings Apr 09 00:22:41 replace battery Apr 09 00:22:43 power on Apr 09 00:22:44 rwhitby: no its the hole on the top! come on how else would you be taking in air Apr 09 00:22:46 enjoy the show Apr 09 00:23:00 sbromwich: no time in the freezer? Apr 09 00:23:16 Does anyone know how to force the latest OTA update for the Palm Pre Plus? Apr 09 00:23:29 webos doctor! Apr 09 00:23:31 :) Apr 09 00:23:38 haha but thats not OTA sorry Apr 09 00:23:50 The latest update is 1.4.0 for the Pre Plus. If you don't have that just run the updates app Apr 09 00:23:51 rwhitby: your sexual preferences are your own concern Apr 09 00:23:58 but it does place the latest webos version that is distributed OTA Apr 09 00:23:59 Wow Apr 09 00:24:05 that went to an excpected place Apr 09 00:24:07 Thanks a bunch Apr 09 00:24:13 ;-) Apr 09 00:24:40 * rwhitby feigns shock Apr 09 00:24:43 senor_goose: i was only kidding about the doctor just run the update app Apr 09 00:25:11 dtzWill: hrm - looks like i get a different crash in 1.4.1.1 ? Apr 09 00:26:03 #3 0x3b09fbd0 in CharBuffer::setSize (this=0x471c914c, new_width=53, new_height=0) at charbuffer.cpp:104 Apr 09 00:26:10 Jack87 No problem. I am running the update right now :) Apr 09 00:26:41 bpadalino: oh joy. anyway it _does_ handle height=0 correctly, right? I think it might but not sure Apr 09 00:26:57 senor_goose: haha i figured i would clarify it since its your first pre day Apr 09 00:27:10 senor_goose: welcome! Apr 09 00:27:12 dtzWill: not sure .. Apr 09 00:27:23 dtzWill: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=plugins/termplugin.git;a=blob;f=charbuffer.cpp;h=1813543afedcad6df930e5047cff8114432276d3;hb=02ef012035c7fe2f439e66c5f29f2cb826c35bc4#l104 - that's where it's dying now it seems? Apr 09 00:27:29 bpadalino: because I think that's a better indication of where the bug would be, and where I was looking before. I think when yuo swipe back it does something goofy... anyway I'll take a look later Apr 09 00:27:36 bpadalino: kk Apr 09 00:27:59 bpadalino: oh it DOES die on free'ing cells? I _thought_ so haha Apr 09 00:28:07 it does! Apr 09 00:28:10 okay yay progress confirming it, let's see if we can fix it Apr 09 00:28:58 http://pastie.textmate.org/private/rq9eqsflarmmmizwtbx2g Apr 09 00:29:08 weird it sets such a funky size Apr 09 00:29:26 bpadalino: well setSize SHOULD be robust to ANY size called on it lol Apr 09 00:29:33 right Apr 09 00:29:37 bpadalino: is gesture+V ever going to be an option to paste? Apr 09 00:29:45 is it even possible Apr 09 00:29:46 Jack87: i have no idea Apr 09 00:29:59 i am just trying to get terminal to stop crashing .. i don't care about adding features .. Apr 09 00:29:59 sorry Apr 09 00:30:08 bpadalino: oh that's right, I got that too on 1.4.1.1 ... the je_free triggered that memory hmm Apr 09 00:30:28 bpadalino: just asking im not supper picky Apr 09 00:31:02 i dont like when referencing the keys that whatever you had typed is reset thought.. seems like a bug as well Apr 09 00:31:12 new patch done. kernel booted and works. Apr 09 00:31:29 uNiXpSyChO: the 1.4.1.1 patch? Apr 09 00:31:30 off the 1.4.1 code? Apr 09 00:31:37 uNiXpSyChO: doing it now myself :) Apr 09 00:31:38 of the 1.4.1.1 code Apr 09 00:31:44 nice! Apr 09 00:32:00 rwithby: should i upload to git? Apr 09 00:32:07 uNiXpSyChO: please Apr 09 00:32:23 uNiXpSyChO: feel free to create multiple different-intention patches there Apr 09 00:32:34 * Jack87 taking off.... have fun folks Apr 09 00:32:41 uNiXpSyChO: but please tag the stock-default one with 'v1.4.1-0' Apr 09 00:33:03 disabling ext3 labels seems to have had a slightly more beneficial effect than I first thought Apr 09 00:33:25 hey, when did the 1.4.1* opensource packages get released? Apr 09 00:33:29 I don't suppose you could compile the new kernel with my latest .config, uNiXpSyChO? Apr 09 00:33:31 today Apr 09 00:34:16 when i compiled with mine it bombed during compile... so we might have to take stock .config and strip again since the missing configs are now in. Apr 09 00:34:28 damn Apr 09 00:34:34 do you remember whereabouts? Apr 09 00:34:57 * sbromwich is curious to know just what went in with the VM stuff Apr 09 00:36:11 sbromwich: do you have a filename or something for this "vm" stuff? Apr 09 00:36:14 it bombed on something with rtc_fastpath. which is new Apr 09 00:36:48 nothing but a vague reference in an email Apr 09 00:36:50 ooooooh Apr 09 00:36:52 no it's not Apr 09 00:36:57 I had issues with fastpath Apr 09 00:37:18 if I disabled that the kernel was really jittery Apr 09 00:41:27 i see they out in the missing device as well... no need for shim anymore Apr 09 00:41:58 i'm cleaning it up so its more closer to stock for git pull, then i'll upload. Apr 09 00:42:02 uNiXpSyChO: ah, good. Apr 09 00:42:29 uNiXpSyChO: the autobuilt ipkg should be almost suitable then Apr 09 00:43:17 dtzWill: i have no idea where the cells are actually being allocated here .. Apr 09 00:44:00 CellBuffer is a structure, _cells is a pointer to the structure .. but never do i see a malloc of the correct size Apr 09 00:44:13 dtzWill: like this piece of code: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=plugins/termplugin.git;a=blob;f=charbuffer.hpp;h=a3aa6b47a5109c79719862b27409126a2ca91e51;hb=02ef012035c7fe2f439e66c5f29f2cb826c35bc4#l46 Apr 09 00:44:24 bpadalino: yeah that whole section could use a few hits with the code quality bat Apr 09 00:45:24 where is this code from? do they maintain it? Apr 09 00:45:39 no idea Apr 09 00:45:56 the history is just puff checking it in .. no idea where it came from Apr 09 00:46:05 bpadalino: http://git.webos-internals.org/?p=plugins/termplugin.git;a=blob;f=charbuffer.cpp;h=1813543afedcad6df930e5047cff8114432276d3;hb=02ef012035c7fe2f439e66c5f29f2cb826c35bc4#l44 is where that's allocated fwiw Apr 09 00:46:52 dtzWill: yeah but that's for tmp .. which gets assigned to _cells only after it's been deleted Apr 09 00:46:59 so where does _cells get it's first bit of memory ? Apr 09 00:47:47 i am definitely not a c++ master .. but this just seems a bit convoluted Apr 09 00:47:58 bpadalino: it's definitely convoluted Apr 09 00:50:07 bpadalino: you'd imagine that mess of code 'falls through' 'gracefully' in the case that cells hasn't been allocated yet. I haven't had a chance to look at it, but... taht's the idea Apr 09 00:50:13 bpadalino: *shudder* lol Apr 09 00:53:19 * rwhitby bbl Apr 09 00:54:10 dtzWill: HAHAH! durh .. look at this Apr 09 00:54:18 int new_size = new_width * new_height; Apr 09 00:54:24 CellBuffer *tmp = (new_size==0) ? 0 : new CellBuffer [new_size]; Apr 09 00:54:39 note new_width = 53 and new_height = 0 .. Apr 09 00:54:50 so 53 * 0 = 0 .. so CellBuffer *tmp = 0 Apr 09 00:55:05 uNiXpSyChO: any idea what the IVA2 stuff is about? Apr 09 00:55:13 "mystery bug"? Apr 09 00:55:54 thats what i was asking earlier. no idea Apr 09 00:56:35 ohhhhhh Apr 09 00:56:37 I see. Apr 09 00:56:43 let me just check something Apr 09 00:58:47 i am just rechecking kernel build with stock options and oc patch. Apr 09 01:04:26 sbromwich: you there? Apr 09 01:04:48 mmm? Apr 09 01:05:19 I just found two people in the 600 club should have results shortly and thank you again Apr 09 01:05:57 excellent, let me know how it goes :-) Apr 09 01:06:07 how is stuff going for you today Apr 09 01:06:28 phil_bw I think I broke that account sorry :-( Apr 09 01:06:39 well, new kernel code drop from palm Apr 09 01:06:51 it's ok, Ill fix it Apr 09 01:06:53 really? Apr 09 01:07:04 mere moments after I got my kernel compiled stripped down even more and working ;-) Apr 09 01:07:05 yup Apr 09 01:07:15 http://opensource.palm.com/1.4.1.1/index.html Apr 09 01:07:24 I wonder if it is the true code, last time it wasnt accurate Apr 09 01:07:52 blahhh this was the hardest time to ever get on IRC on the can in history Apr 09 01:08:02 wirc just will not load Apr 09 01:08:26 had to resort to pidgin via x11 (which is about as clunky as can be) Apr 09 01:08:40 dunno, I'm still digging through it myself Apr 09 01:08:41 good luck phil Apr 09 01:09:13 I will check code tonite after I finish ipk packaging Apr 09 01:09:19 sbromwich: did the login to ftp work and now it does not? Apr 09 01:09:54 I could log in but as soon as I tried to do anything got a disco Apr 09 01:10:20 strange, i had logged in fine from my win7 system Apr 09 01:10:25 how 70's lol Apr 09 01:10:45 caj2008: see my latest thread on precentral btw? ;-) Apr 09 01:11:06 No, can you direct me to it Apr 09 01:11:23 http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/240874-read-thread-if-you-want-try-destroy-your-phone-new-kernel.html Apr 09 01:11:40 lol,,,thats funny Apr 09 01:12:11 * phil_bw2 wanders off Apr 09 01:12:54 yeah, hopefully this time around everyone gets the hint ;-) Apr 09 01:12:56 omg my fone almost got me into serious trouble Apr 09 01:13:06 i had some holes in my pocket and i almost pocket dialed 911 Apr 09 01:14:01 there's a patch out there that makes it harder to accidentally dial 911, ShadeS Apr 09 01:14:02 I responded, check it out Apr 09 01:14:23 Lets put it together with the kernel Apr 09 01:14:39 lol widdle? thats a new one Apr 09 01:15:12 How to frakk a phone in 30 days...new movie coming out....lol Apr 09 01:15:38 hhe Apr 09 01:15:44 nice :-) Apr 09 01:16:10 I just need an unlisted number and a new email address and I wil be fine now Apr 09 01:16:54 time to switch to voip? Apr 09 01:16:59 As soon as the final ipk's hot preware custom, I am retired from this stupid hobby Apr 09 01:17:17 I have that too Apr 09 01:17:44 I was stupid and too trusting..bad part of my nature Apr 09 01:18:12 heh... my phone number goes out to *no-one* Apr 09 01:18:27 and even those that have it know better than to try calling me Apr 09 01:18:29 I am putting out an ip trace on that email Apr 09 01:18:57 If I can locate them they will hear from myn two lawyers Apr 09 01:19:27 have you got the headers? Apr 09 01:19:50 * sbromwich is ex-mail admin for the local DSL ISP Apr 09 01:19:57 you talking to me Apr 09 01:20:08 yup Apr 09 01:20:11 sbromwich: yo Apr 09 01:20:29 I can probably give you some useful info just from looking at the headers Apr 09 01:20:33 I am having my attornies work on the details Apr 09 01:20:36 hey PuffTheMagic Apr 09 01:21:02 phil_bw: I found pidgin in matchbox rather usable? Apr 09 01:21:03 sbromwich: is this kernel stuff u are doing a 2 week fetish or are you planning on sticking with it for a while Apr 09 01:21:13 you just need the source IP and the MSGID, from that the source ISP should be able to link it to the user Apr 09 01:21:19 it's a 2 week fetish Apr 09 01:21:30 I am going to focuson getting this ipk ready so I can go splitsville. I do not want to go insane like Marco did a few weeks ago Apr 09 01:22:01 sbromwich: cause if you want to get serious about this, sometime u me and rwhitby need to talk about how we can start getting kernels and modules building in the autobuilder Apr 09 01:22:11 sbromwich: so that we can get ipks made for them easily Apr 09 01:22:26 sbromwich: we should probably make an app too for managing the kernels/bootloader Apr 09 01:22:39 something to set the symlink Apr 09 01:22:48 PuffTheMagic: I'm not interested in ipkgs Apr 09 01:22:53 or write to the boot mem if i can remmeber how we did that Apr 09 01:22:58 sbromwich: why not? Apr 09 01:23:16 because I update the kernel by hand myself? Apr 09 01:23:27 huh? Apr 09 01:23:34 what huh? Apr 09 01:23:46 what are you updating by hand? Apr 09 01:23:49 you seem to be under the misapprehension I'm compiling for other people? Apr 09 01:23:56 no i am not Apr 09 01:24:01 i dont think that Apr 09 01:24:23 the kernel... I'm compiling it by hand, and when I get one that works how I want it to I just update in /boot Apr 09 01:24:24 sound like u have a config and/or patch against the palm patch Apr 09 01:24:41 I have a config. Apr 09 01:24:48 uNiXpSyChO is the one doing all the hard work. Apr 09 01:25:04 well where is he? Apr 09 01:25:14 sbromwich: bad news still at 600MHz Apr 09 01:25:19 boston, I think Apr 09 01:25:32 does it give an actual error, caj2008? Apr 09 01:25:38 lol, 600 isnt even recommended, why would people whatnt o run 800 Apr 09 01:25:47 Marco has quit PC 3X!!! Apr 09 01:25:56 now he is back again Apr 09 01:26:12 weird Apr 09 01:26:21 maybe he's just logged in and idle Apr 09 01:26:29 ame thing as before Apr 09 01:26:35 could be Apr 09 01:26:40 sbromwich: he is normally on IRC? Apr 09 01:26:47 he was here a while ago, I guess he might have gone for supper or something Apr 09 01:26:52 no Apr 09 01:27:01 tell him to get a hold of me next time you see him Apr 09 01:27:07 I will Apr 09 01:27:36 sbromwich: what else to try here? Apr 09 01:28:47 any thoughts? Apr 09 01:28:56 caj2008: all I can think of is seeing if you can ssh into a pre while the user tries to do an update and tail -f /var/log/messages Apr 09 01:29:14 without some sort of error message it's just a matter of guessing at what the problem might be Apr 09 01:29:46 every install sucessful or not gives the same error I wrote on the thread. This is just weird Apr 09 01:30:01 what's the thread url? Apr 09 01:30:14 one moment Apr 09 01:31:50 http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre-tips-information-resources/240139-ipk-deployment-550-600-mhz-lunasysmgr-webos-1-4-1-1-720-800-mhz-kernels.html Apr 09 01:32:50 PuffTheMagic: the autobuilder is set up to do kernels now Apr 09 01:33:13 PuffTheMagic: look in build.git/hardware/uber-kernel-pre/Makefile Apr 09 01:33:22 rwhitby: what about modules out of tree Apr 09 01:33:40 not done yet Apr 09 01:33:49 it either goes to set speed (full install) or defaults to LunaSysMgr max of 600 (partial install)-same error message is seen regardless. Note 550 and 600 LunaSysMgr have no errors and install fine Apr 09 01:33:59 we will need the kernel headers Apr 09 01:34:11 I think it is a communications issue, but who knows Apr 09 01:34:46 which page is the error first listed on, do you know? Apr 09 01:34:52 ohhhhh Apr 09 01:35:06 does uname -a change? Apr 09 01:35:09 its an ewrror we all have seen before Apr 09 01:35:21 I dont know Apr 09 01:35:46 can you ceck it out on your Pre? Apr 09 01:35:56 what freq governor is being used? Apr 09 01:36:02 my spelling sucks when I have no sleep Apr 09 01:36:26 I will send you the scripts Apr 09 01:36:52 it sounds like the palm power daemon is interfering with the scaling_max_frequency Apr 09 01:37:02 I saw that with my test perl power manager Apr 09 01:37:11 any way around? Apr 09 01:37:39 are you trying to lock the frequency at 800MHz? Apr 09 01:37:44 yes Apr 09 01:37:53 ok, let me just novaterm in and check Apr 09 01:38:08 cool and thanks Apr 09 01:39:03 This error effect about 25% of all users at last count Apr 09 01:39:56 PuffThe Magic: my son loves your name (he's 11) Apr 09 01:40:35 He is singing it right now! Apr 09 01:40:56 you do know that song is about smoking marijuana Apr 09 01:40:57 ? Apr 09 01:41:12 Just to be clear. Apr 09 01:41:13 actually no,,,I am that dense...lol Apr 09 01:41:22 clear!! Apr 09 01:41:24 That's exactly what that song is a metaphore for Apr 09 01:41:32 is that from the 60's Apr 09 01:41:40 I don't know what time frame it's from Apr 09 01:41:44 PuffTheMagic's name has nothing to do with that song. Apr 09 01:41:51 I didn't say it did Apr 09 01:42:04 this is too funny Apr 09 01:42:05 and I don't want to imply that it does Apr 09 01:42:14 dont blame you Apr 09 01:42:20 but just to be clear, that your little boy is singing about a song that is a metaphore for smoking marijuana. Apr 09 01:42:27 my son is still singing it lol Apr 09 01:42:38 echo 800000 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq Apr 09 01:42:38 echo 800000 >/sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_setspeed Apr 09 01:42:39 echo 800000 > /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq Apr 09 01:42:45 I think that will do it Apr 09 01:42:45 but he added dragon to the end Apr 09 01:43:08 send me the server link when done Apr 09 01:45:20 yeah, that'll do it, just drop that in an event.d script Apr 09 01:45:31 start with origninal ipk ands just change those two new variables Apr 09 01:45:42 huh? Apr 09 01:46:04 are you running an event.d script? Apr 09 01:46:08 was I confusing sorry Apr 09 01:46:19 yes Apr 09 01:46:31 put those 3 values in it and I think that should do it Apr 09 01:46:39 the script is in the ipk, check it out Apr 09 01:46:55 sorry, I already deleted it :-/ Apr 09 01:47:02 I can get it tested tonite. I have two people ready to go Apr 09 01:47:16 they can cut and paste those commands into novaterm Apr 09 01:47:30 want me to email you the ipk for speed Apr 09 01:47:37 if that fixes them then that's what the error is Apr 09 01:47:49 no, I want you to test it out first with a problematic user if you could Apr 09 01:47:52 ?? Apr 09 01:48:12 yes these two ahave the 600 problem and are online with me now Apr 09 01:48:14 get them to install the existing ipkg, then run those 3 commands in a novaterm window Apr 09 01:48:29 if that fixes it then it's probably the palm pm daemon flonking around Apr 09 01:48:44 if it doesn't then that's not the problem Apr 09 01:48:58 ok Apr 09 01:55:51 also have you tested if there's an error if you try to mount -o remount,rw / if it's already rw for some reason? Apr 09 01:56:29 ah, no error Apr 09 01:58:03 sbromwich: they are using Linux commandline in WOSQI instead as they arent rooted, OK? Apr 09 01:58:22 orly? Apr 09 01:58:33 does it work ok on other non-devmode pres? Apr 09 01:58:53 MY PREWARE IS STUCK ON Palm-catalog Apr 09 01:59:05 I've never used WOSQ1 but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work Apr 09 01:59:07 i rebooted Apr 09 01:59:08 It works on 75% of installs, no common reason was found Apr 09 01:59:09 your caps, too, entity- Apr 09 01:59:15 i press update feeds Apr 09 01:59:33 did you try a cold boot with pulling the battery entity-? Apr 09 01:59:41 I usually get the same results in novaterm as the commnadline so I am not worried Apr 09 01:59:44 no Apr 09 01:59:47 fair enough Apr 09 01:59:52 epopel in here always tell me not to do that Apr 09 02:00:04 try a cold boot, entity-, that runs some scripts that clean stuff up Apr 09 02:00:07 heh Apr 09 02:00:11 hang on 1 second then Apr 09 02:00:40 I've pulled the battery in my pre 145 times so far in the past... 2 weeks? Apr 09 02:00:54 just don't have any apps running when you pull it Apr 09 02:01:09 if you want to be ultra sure novaterm in and run shutdown -r now Apr 09 02:01:11 instead Apr 09 02:01:32 that will do a clean hard reboot Apr 09 02:01:40 hard Apr 09 02:02:54 as in... very close to a full power cycle but with less risk of any issues Apr 09 02:03:18 the reason people recommend against pulling the battery is if there's any open files they'll get trashed Apr 09 02:03:53 however if one is, for example, playing with overclocking the kernel one can quite easily lock up one's palm Apr 09 02:04:12 do you use stock battery Apr 09 02:04:23 yup Apr 09 02:04:35 I find it heats up more than the 2600 Apr 09 02:04:41 Seidio Apr 09 02:05:12 I find the chipset heats up more than the battery itself Apr 09 02:05:15 On the touchstone at 800MHz overnite, I reach a max of 41C Apr 09 02:05:23 true Apr 09 02:05:25 ahhh... I'm not using a touchstone Apr 09 02:05:37 easy to configure Apr 09 02:05:40 I'm using an iGo, it has the stiffest voltage I've seen yet Apr 09 02:05:47 cool Apr 09 02:06:09 plus the interchangeable tips and accessories mean I can charge up off AA batteries Apr 09 02:06:16 handy for OTG work :-) Apr 09 02:06:38 makes sense Apr 09 02:06:55 what do you do may I ask? Apr 09 02:07:09 I run the big iron for the local district health authority Apr 09 02:07:29 ya like it? Apr 09 02:08:00 yeah, better than being a contractor... I'm on flextime, work from home, don't have to talk to users, have juniors to do all the legwork for me Apr 09 02:08:18 sbromwich: i use an iGo as well, but I have another charger that is 1.2 amps (it has a passthrough usb, so I assume it's for the extra device) Apr 09 02:08:25 I suppose I should go into the office tomorrow, I haven't been in yet this week Apr 09 02:08:41 1.2? Niiiice Apr 09 02:08:51 good for you I am so behind because of all this stuff Apr 09 02:08:53 yeah, serious juice :D Apr 09 02:09:11 I got the splitter, I am going to have fun in the summer seeing how quickly a phone and gps can drain AA batteries ;-) Apr 09 02:09:22 how long it take to dfully charge from square one? Apr 09 02:09:43 you know I've never done a full battery drain on my pre Apr 09 02:10:01 it'll kill 2 duracell coppertops in around 3 hours Apr 09 02:10:02 that happened to me today Apr 09 02:10:31 thats fast Apr 09 02:10:41 and I think I've mentioned this before but I forgot to put my phone on charge when it was at 96%, next morning it was only down to 89% Apr 09 02:10:53 that was after 9 hours or so Apr 09 02:11:18 My seidio 2600 can last up to 1.5 days at 800MHz (depending on use though) Apr 09 02:11:49 I measured the draw on the pre when it was under load at over 3 watts... by my calculations that means it's possible to drain the battery flat even if it's plugged into a standard 500mA USB port Apr 09 02:12:27 only deficient by 500mW .. not too bad Apr 09 02:12:52 mmm Apr 09 02:13:09 I suspect a standard 500MHz kernel under load would be fine, mind Apr 09 02:20:05 didnt work-BogoMIPS still at 600 Apr 09 02:20:56 run cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_available_frequencies Apr 09 02:20:59 see what comes back Apr 09 02:22:43 looking to see if the frequency divisors took hold? Apr 09 02:22:48 yeah Apr 09 02:23:05 check if the kernel's actually being booted right or not Apr 09 02:23:08 OK he needs to get back to that point so it will be a little wait Apr 09 02:23:39 get him to do ls -l /boot/uImage* Apr 09 02:23:43 while he's at it too then Apr 09 02:24:18 smart! Apr 09 02:24:48 :-) Apr 09 02:29:21 Yaaay I won a Palm Pre in a contest today Apr 09 02:29:37 maxisma: cool Apr 09 02:29:38 congrats :-) Apr 09 02:29:51 Will receive it in a few days :) Apr 09 02:30:23 can you wait that long? ;-) Apr 09 02:30:32 its wort it Apr 09 02:30:42 definitely Apr 09 02:30:51 I am SOO going to hack it all the way :D I'm a ROM developer for some Android devices :) I hope my Linux experience will help me with that Apr 09 02:31:15 nice! Apr 09 02:31:28 I've been having fun compiling my kernels too Apr 09 02:32:07 Guess I'll have to digg into the Palm Pre kernel source.. Are CDMA = GSM kernels? Apr 09 02:32:21 maxisma: same kernel, eys Apr 09 02:32:22 yes Apr 09 02:32:34 Very nice.. It's not that way with Android devices =/ Apr 09 02:33:23 Does the Palm Pre have a .27 or .29 kernel? Apr 09 02:33:43 sbromwich: we we know whether the 1.4.1 and 1.4.1.1 kernel sources are identical? Apr 09 02:33:46 ummm... it's a bit complex Apr 09 02:34:02 maxisma: opensource.palm.com Apr 09 02:34:13 Ok, thanks :) Will look into it Apr 09 02:34:13 as I understand it it's 2.6.24 + palm's patches which integrate OMAP support, and then there's a lot of code backported from later releases Apr 09 02:34:26 Ah I see Apr 09 02:34:28 rwhitby: I'm still reading palm's patch Apr 09 02:34:32 maxisma: the patch is over 10MB Apr 09 02:34:51 I *did* just spot something ever so very useful though: Apr 09 02:35:01 + kgdboe= [HW] Setup the local ip information and host ip Apr 09 02:35:01 + information when the network driver supports Apr 09 02:35:01 + NETPOLL and kgdboe is configured as a built in. Apr 09 02:35:13 kernel command line option. Apr 09 02:35:20 kgbdoe, nice. Apr 09 02:35:32 s/bd/db/ Apr 09 02:35:32 rwhitby meant: kgdboe, nice. Apr 09 02:35:45 sounds useful Apr 09 02:36:01 Very nice that they provide a patch to the original Kernel.. Apr 09 02:36:02 yeah, they've backported kgdb which I think is why the kernel hangs when I compile sans debug, I suspect it's trying to do some kgdb work and getting fail Apr 09 02:36:33 Guess it would be a little bit faster without the debug code Apr 09 02:36:51 can i just blow away what's in git and replace it... the patch looks ugly when merged Apr 09 02:37:38 maxisma: I've been working on stripping down and optimising the kernel... I score 126 on the google v8 test now Apr 09 02:37:53 oh, and it's overclocked to 800mhz with ondemand scaling Apr 09 02:38:17 [21:39:03] This error effect about 25% of all users at last count Apr 09 02:38:17 [21:39:56] PuffThe Magic: my son loves your name (he's 11) Apr 09 02:38:17 [21:40:35] He is singing it right now! Apr 09 02:38:17 [21:40:56] you do know that song is about smoking marijuana Apr 09 02:38:20 hahahaha Apr 09 02:38:54 sbromwich: what did it score before ? Apr 09 02:39:20 maxisma: It's not really "nice"... I mean they have to. It's nice they provide it on a public website tho :) Apr 09 02:39:37 my son does add the word dragon however...lol Apr 09 02:39:40 I'm not sure... if you look at the logs page a few other people ran the test at the same time and posted their results Apr 09 02:39:45 90-odd or so? Apr 09 02:39:46 Nah Apr 09 02:40:09 Google/HTC provides a kernel with all the changes already merged in Apr 09 02:40:40 maxisma: Ah, so you mean it's nice they provide the diff? Yes, that's convenient imo. Apr 09 02:40:51 Yea Apr 09 02:41:02 Sorry, my misunderstanding. Apr 09 02:41:07 np Apr 09 02:41:08 I suppose I took it for granted. Apr 09 02:42:13 darn I have puff the magic dragon song in my head now... Apr 09 02:42:34 heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey macarena Apr 09 02:42:46 lol Apr 09 02:42:49 that help? Apr 09 02:42:57 shes slow Apr 09 02:43:07 one momnet Apr 09 02:43:16 I cant spell lol Apr 09 02:45:50 sbromwich: 1.4.1 and 1.4.1 Pre kernel patches are identical Apr 09 02:46:13 as they should be? Apr 09 02:46:18 rwhitby: you mean 1.4.0 and 1.4.1? Apr 09 02:46:20 missing a .1 Apr 09 02:46:24 ? Apr 09 02:46:33 sbromwich: 1.4.1 and 1.4.1.1 Pre kernel patches are identical Apr 09 02:46:46 oh, yeah, 1.4.1 and 1.4.1.1 is identical except the nfl live app change thing Apr 09 02:47:11 our autobuilt kernels will use 1.4.1 Apr 09 02:47:23 Are there patches/fixes that can help speed the Pre Plus up a bit? I am finding my Pre Plus to be somewhat laggy. Apr 09 02:47:50 I suspect I'm going to regret this but... can I feed in .config files to the autobuilder and get a kernel image back? Apr 09 02:47:51 give it some caffeine Apr 09 02:48:01 sbromwich: yep Apr 09 02:48:08 senor_goose: read my postings on precentral regarding disabling syslogging Apr 09 02:48:12 sbromwich: 600000 550000 500000 250000 125000 not correct! Apr 09 02:48:19 root@palm-webos-device: ls -l /boot/uImage* Apr 09 02:48:26 rut roh Apr 09 02:48:34 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 30 Jul 18 2009 /boot/uImage Apr 09 02:48:46 -> uImage-2.6.24-palm-joplin-3430 Apr 09 02:49:04 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2346012 Mar 24 20:46 Apr 09 02:49:42 thats it Apr 09 02:50:01 what's the size of the uImage you're trying to install? Apr 09 02:50:25 ask Marco Apr 09 02:50:28 sbromwich: git commit, git tag, wait 15 mins, download the ipkg Apr 09 02:51:22 heh Apr 09 02:51:27 thought that might be the case ;-) Apr 09 02:51:48 trying something else will be back Apr 09 02:52:00 sbromwich: Thank you .. I will Apr 09 02:52:18 sbromwich: Can I assume that has helped your speed with the Pre? Apr 09 02:52:39 yup Apr 09 02:52:58 there's a lot of logging going on, flushing to disk is I suspect what makes it rather laggy Apr 09 02:53:22 https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-April/012235.html Apr 09 02:53:27 also if you're feeling brave you can mod /etc/fstab to mount /var mode=ordered and /var/log mode=writeback Apr 09 02:54:56 Whay arent frequency divisors loading? Apr 09 02:55:24 I don't think the kernel is being written Apr 09 02:55:34 Time out before load? Apr 09 02:55:53 in your shell scripts if you got any if...fi statements that don't have an elif to check if it bombed? Apr 09 02:56:02 same damn .sh file Apr 09 02:57:16 let me see if I still have the scripts in my repo Apr 09 02:57:20 give me a few minutes Apr 09 02:57:39 I will send you lijnk to the script easier Apr 09 02:58:56 k, ta Apr 09 02:59:22 http://www.mediafire.com/?wmmuhwzmwz1 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 09 02:59:56 2010