**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jun 05 02:59:57 2010 Jun 05 02:59:57 reality9110: audio apis are barely ready for any primetime... and I totally understand why Jun 05 03:00:15 zsoc: I know...RadioTime...remember? Jun 05 03:00:24 reality9110: wrapping many gstreamer and related plugin functions into apis compatible with mojo is so farfetched... it's painful to think what they are going through Jun 05 03:00:27 there is a media team, yes. i'm not really sure how the userspace and kernel stuff is divided though. i know the kernel side of the media team Jun 05 03:00:41 reality9110: that's why i'm fighting so hard to let dev's link fs GLib and Gstreamer Jun 05 03:00:44 there are other people responsible for what apps have access to Jun 05 03:01:42 eieio: yeah, devrel made it pretty clear to me/us that "for now" the whitelisted libs are fairly limited... plugins have 'access' to all of /usr/lib but won't be accepted for submission except for the whitelist Jun 05 03:01:48 It's just something that most every other platform provides out of the box. Jun 05 03:02:11 bpadalino: yeah, just waiting on some people to get done Jun 05 03:02:14 It shouldn't have to take coding up a PDK plugin to do it either Jun 05 03:02:28 eieio: very nice .. hope you have a fun time celebrating Jun 05 03:02:38 whats novacom? Jun 05 03:02:47 reality9110: like i said, wrapping gstreamer into something digestible to webOS devs is neigh near impossible Jun 05 03:02:48 thanks :) Jun 05 03:02:49 if i am ever in the bay area, i'll buy the group a round Jun 05 03:03:00 reality9110: i am truly impressed by what they are even /attempting/ to do, we'll see how it goes Jun 05 03:04:38 zsoc: I don't necessarily think that's the case. Metadata being built into gstreamer natively, a simple library could be written to dump that information directly into a text file which could be monitored. Jun 05 03:04:59 reality9110: just referring to metadata, yes, i'm referring to a full set of audio apis Jun 05 03:05:16 reality9110: in fact, i coding something very similar to what you're describing. unfortunately it's useless as of 1.4.0 :) Jun 05 03:05:56 It's pretty darn sketchy Jun 05 03:06:02 I'll give you that. Jun 05 03:06:26 zsoc: the ability to get that stuff in the app catalog hasn't changed, and the ability to do it in preware remains that same. so why do you say "as of 1.4.0" ? Jun 05 03:06:34 last i checked, gst-ffmpeg doesn't spit out anything taggable, but i haven't checked since 1.4.0, i'll revisit it when the next OTA drops Jun 05 03:06:36 Some of the previously working event listeners are just bonkers in 1.4 and up Jun 05 03:06:58 "Error" being the big one. Jun 05 03:07:08 rwhitby: you're right, but the pdk has given me some fairly false hopes. it's just 1 dev complaining, don't mind me :D Jun 05 03:07:10 It takes a small eternity for error to actually throw Jun 05 03:07:19 rwhitby: there was a pretty big shift in the way media is handled in 1.4.0 Jun 05 03:07:43 At the API level, it's not that huge. Jun 05 03:07:49 Or SDK level rather. Jun 05 03:08:07 zsoc: I take the attitude that until it's publicly released, it don't exist. I'm not developing to APIs that are still subject to change, or hopes of app cat acceptance where the rules are still under review. Jun 05 03:08:22 zsoc: what are the false hopes you speak of? Jun 05 03:08:22 rwhitby: It already changed. Jun 05 03:08:42 eieio: the hope of doing anything meaningful with the PDK other than games Jun 05 03:08:47 eieio: I hope I wasn't misconstrued. It was simply me reading into things too much. Jun 05 03:08:55 quick question for you guys, I know how the wallpaper is set, but I was curious as to whether or not it just changes a path in a css file or a path in a db? Jun 05 03:09:05 rwhitby: I'm not speaking about anything other than what has been discussed on the public palm dev forums Jun 05 03:09:32 It does lead to a fragmentation issue that requires a lot of excess code Jun 05 03:09:44 eieio: unfortunately, the (correct, imho) stance that palm is taking on security of pdk apps means that devs can't do much at all with it other than write games Jun 05 03:10:09 rwhitby: can you elaborate? Jun 05 03:11:00 hallo everyone Jun 05 03:11:08 eieio: zsoc needs to link against gstreamer libs that are already on the device to produce a PDK app that deals with audio and video. our understanding (and I can't say much more without breaking NDA) is that will not be possible Jun 05 03:12:06 eieio: it has been publicly stated that no fs libs can be linked besides what is shipped with the PDK at this time (pdl, sdl, and gles) Jun 05 03:12:41 so we can ship static libs, but that gets complicated. some libs obviously just don't work that was (alsa, pulse, etc) and some get tricky with licesning (glib, gstreamer, etc) Jun 05 03:12:48 s/was/way/ Jun 05 03:12:49 zsoc meant: so we can ship static libs, but that gets complicated. some libs obviously just don't work that way (alsa, pulse, etc) and some get tricky with licesning (glib, gstreamer, etc) Jun 05 03:13:16 eieio: I understand the reasons why it will not be possible, and even agree with them when looking at it from Palm's point of view. That's why my advice to zsoc is to ignore PDK app catalog submission for anything other than games, and just distribute the meaningful non-game stuff through Preware, cause it won't be getting into the app catalog any time soon, Jun 05 03:13:35 (and that's a shame for Palm, cause they will be missing out on some good apps that zsoc is developing) Jun 05 03:14:30 eieio: sorry, ignore my rants, go enjoy your anniversary ;) Jun 05 03:14:33 at least they're not against the non-official channels developing towards these things .. Jun 05 03:14:47 no matter how weird or complicated they may be :) Jun 05 03:14:55 unfortunately, I don't have any good suggestion on how to change it and still remain within the constraints that Palm as the official app catalog gatekeeper need to work under Jun 05 03:16:04 e.g. someone could do a shazaam app today in Preware if they really worked at it, but cannot get such an app into the app catalog Jun 05 03:16:14 it seems that there are similar restrictions on other platforms Jun 05 03:16:53 indeed, it's nothing palm-specific. the trouble is that some developers have got their hopes up that it might be different :) Jun 05 03:17:19 eieio: but those other platforms 1.) aren't based on standard linux libs/stack, and 2.) offer most/all of these functions in available apis Jun 05 03:17:42 i'm not complaining. I mean I am, but it's cool otherwise. Just voicing my opinion. Jun 05 03:18:32 you're right, there needs to be a significant increase in the APIs available Jun 05 03:19:28 it just might save some time if we could make them ourselves ;) Jun 05 03:19:37 this stuff is still early, and Palm want's to do it aligned with web standards for media that are also still maturing. I think it's the right approach. Jun 05 03:20:25 i agree with rwhitby that getting webOS to be fully web standards compliant is a pretty good priority on palms part Jun 05 03:22:09 I'm not disagreeing it's wrong, I'm just too immature to think that doing things a way that isn't mine is wrong ;) Jun 05 03:22:21 lol Jun 05 03:22:23 :) Jun 05 03:24:10 CONGA! Jun 05 03:24:18 WOOOOOOOOO Jun 05 03:24:31 I pulled out my ethernet cord again.... Jun 05 03:24:36 infobot: CONGA! is /me plays 'dem steel drums Jun 05 03:24:37 zsoc: okay Jun 05 03:24:55 have a slice of wine Jun 05 03:25:35 well, all i can say is hang in there. we're still working on it ;) Jun 05 03:25:47 we're hanging in there, that's for sure .. Jun 05 03:26:11 there is a crack in my pre starting, tho .. hoping new hardware is released before the crack breaks the entire screen Jun 05 03:26:49 We're focusing on Android for the time being. Jun 05 03:26:58 http://github.com/halfhalo/Node.js-IRC Jun 05 03:27:15 time to go. later Jun 05 03:27:21 its basic, glitchy, but it works Jun 05 03:27:28 later Jun 05 03:27:29 ish Jun 05 03:27:30 congrats halfhalo Jun 05 03:28:12 ooooooooo.. QUIT DOES work! Jun 05 03:29:19 The single hardest part about it was the interface Jun 05 03:30:52 it gets really confusing to be in more than one channel as well Jun 05 03:31:22 and is a pain to retype out the channel name every time you want to send a message, hence the active command Jun 05 03:33:47 * rwhitby bbl Jun 05 03:40:39 When does the GPS icon appear in the top bar? I've never seen it except in screenshots Jun 05 03:41:31 no idea Jun 05 04:05:07 ~CONGA! Jun 05 04:05:08 /me plays 'dem steel drums Jun 05 04:51:10 hello everyone Jun 05 04:51:19 its been a while since i've been on the IRC Jun 05 04:51:47 I broked it.... Jun 05 04:51:54 i'm having trouble reinstalling Preware, its A. not showing in INternals Feed (Pre) or Pixi or All, but in Emulator Jun 05 04:52:00 OH IT WAS YOU! Jun 05 04:52:01 lol Jun 05 04:52:05 i knew it... Jun 05 04:52:26 damn i want my themes back :( Jun 05 04:52:56 nvm i fixed it Jun 05 04:52:57 by Jun 05 04:52:59 bye* Jun 05 04:53:46 where's the framework path? Jun 05 04:53:57 ? Jun 05 04:54:17 fixed it..... Jun 05 04:54:33 ...? fixed what? Jun 05 04:54:56 brb Jun 05 05:04:08 backorz Jun 05 05:04:19 and I fixed the irc thingie Jun 05 05:08:37 is there a 'find' function in the shell to search IN files? Jun 05 05:26:32 Ohhhhhh Jun 05 05:26:38 textmate has a git thingie Jun 05 05:43:18 * valexa <3 textmate Jun 05 05:44:25 http://github.com/halfhalo/Node.js-IRC-Client Jun 05 05:44:27 there we go Jun 05 06:54:10 where is the ipkg/info? Jun 05 06:56:46 nvm Jun 05 07:05:17 anybody know how to get a tab char with the symbol key? Jun 05 07:05:32 (not the onscreen symbols) Jun 05 07:07:49 no idea Jun 05 07:09:13 the problem is that the terminal doesn't support gestures Jun 05 07:09:25 Bah Jun 05 07:09:29 Terminal Jun 05 07:09:48 also I can't find _ char either...which is kind of a PITA as its used in a LOT of names. Jun 05 07:10:03 so I either need _ OR tab completion. Jun 05 07:10:23 * halfhalo shrugs Jun 05 07:15:37 yawn Jun 05 07:15:40 howdy Jun 05 07:18:21 morning Jun 05 07:19:03 I think the reason I'm having so much trouble with figuring this out is that the Pixi is a German O2 one (world) and I don't know the keymap. Jun 05 07:19:24 it really doesn't match the Verizon one. Jun 05 07:21:21 can anyone here see what an ipk does? Jun 05 07:21:37 like open it up and see the things it does Jun 05 07:23:29 sk1tt1sh, yep you can Jun 05 07:23:34 how Jun 05 07:26:30 http://www.oesf.org/index.php?title=IPKG_Howto Jun 05 07:26:35 its probably close to that. Jun 05 07:34:59 anybody in .eu up? Jun 05 10:53:28 hi guys Jun 05 10:54:11 I've managed to get the webos quick installer running on my ubuntu 10.04 laptop Jun 05 10:54:35 but it can't detect my pre Jun 05 10:55:09 when I click the blue button it says please connect your device and hit ok. I do that but it complains that it's not detected Jun 05 10:55:40 in my options the device to use is set to USB device Jun 05 11:09:45 fredsa: did you mount it? Jun 05 11:22:34 RamsesFSFE, no it's just set to charge Jun 05 11:25:48 fredsa: try to mount it and then try again Jun 05 11:26:52 RamsesFSFE, I've tried both; neither work Jun 05 11:27:05 ok Jun 05 11:27:07 but it just occurred to me, I didn't reboot after switching on dev mode Jun 05 11:27:15 I'm trying that now Jun 05 11:27:39 reboot the device or Ubuntu? Jun 05 11:28:07 the device Jun 05 11:31:23 RamsesFSFE, still no luck Jun 05 11:37:04 heh, I now know why patch no longer works on the emulator. the autobuilder is now a 64-bit box, and it's building 64-bit binaries which won't work on the emulator. Jun 05 11:41:23 chroot? Jun 05 11:48:52 ah, it looks like I need to download webos doctor manually Jun 05 11:49:01 tmzt: no, just need to use the right i686 toolchain instead of native host gcc Jun 05 11:49:11 (e.g. like all the C services use) Jun 05 11:49:27 simple fix, now I know what the problem is Jun 05 15:23:34 Hi all... Jun 05 15:24:35 Have been working on a Pre with a dead touch screen all morning. I'm trying to retrieve the contacts. Found a bunch of instructions on how to, but it needs the phone in developer mode. Anyway to get the phone in Developer Mode without using the touch screen? Jun 05 15:29:52 Hello... is there anybody out there? Jun 05 15:31:19 yeah Jun 05 15:31:21 metadoctor it Jun 05 15:33:38 Thanks Puff... Just googled it and got the info! I'll start working on it. Again, thank you very very much!!! Jun 05 16:00:19 uNiXpSyChO, you awake? Jun 05 16:00:31 Zzzzzz.... Jun 05 16:00:42 ya...me too. Jun 05 16:00:54 I stayed up waaay too late poking around the Pixi Jun 05 16:01:14 overclock it yet? ;p Jun 05 16:01:46 well...I've been looking at the clocking code :D Jun 05 16:02:46 there are 4 governors in the pixi Jun 05 16:03:03 I've found the SoC Temp Sensor. Jun 05 16:03:05 the msm gov is the best for battery Jun 05 16:03:22 okay I thought that might be the case. Jun 05 16:03:30 the current is ondemandctl. Jun 05 16:05:13 since i dont have a pixi i cant help you man-handle the kernel :p Jun 05 16:06:09 I have a tree setup and have applied the pixi patches. Jun 05 16:06:58 I think I can re-write the govnah backend to make it work on the pixi. Jun 05 16:08:04 maybe i can port screenstate gov. hmm Jun 05 16:09:04 I was wondering that. Jun 05 16:09:14 the pixi is aggressive in turning off the screen. Jun 05 16:12:27 the low freq is 122mhz and the current hi is 600 Jun 05 16:12:54 did you get the config-2.6.24-palm-chuck I sent you? Jun 05 16:13:57 yep Jun 05 16:14:05 browsing through it Jun 05 16:29:17 the cpufreq setup looks the same for the pixi as the pre but I need another cable setup so I can compare them directly. Jun 05 16:34:11 so it may not take much to make govnah work correctly on the pixi. Jun 05 16:43:28 uNiXpSyChO, I can change the scaling_governor so I can control the pixi somewhat. Jun 05 16:50:27 you should be able to... its the same kernel... just different guts to control clock. Jun 05 16:51:00 me bbiab Jun 05 16:51:11 * uNiXpSyChO bbiab Jun 05 16:51:57 uNiXpSyChO, yep looks fairly simple to make it work. Jun 05 17:36:21 uNiXpSyChO hows the bugs w/ openvpn && uberkernel Jun 05 17:38:05 utorrent hangs the kernel w/ ip changes Jun 05 17:38:19 and same w/ openvpn about 5min ago Jun 05 17:38:50 no cloo --- have a great weekend man, Jun 05 18:29:40 whats the sexiest way to start+stop a selfmade daemon from a sdk-frontend? Jun 05 18:30:17 the wIRCD-way (lunaservice?) Jun 05 18:30:22 ? Jun 05 18:32:12 (btw: sexiest not in terms of 'top-notch' (more like quick and dirty)) Jun 05 19:37:18 hmmmmm Jun 05 19:37:29 very very interesting..... Jun 05 19:47:29 ? Jun 05 19:47:48 looking at how the fb app uses triton or trident or whatever it is Jun 05 19:49:55 triton Jun 05 19:50:21 see, I was right! Jun 05 19:52:08 now I just have to find that on the device to play with it... Jun 05 19:52:31 oh look Jun 05 19:54:51 I'm going to guess and say its just a js dbus implementation? Jun 05 19:55:16 kinda but not quite Jun 05 19:57:14 trident is IE's rendering engine Jun 05 19:57:27 and its a gum! Jun 05 19:57:33 that too Jun 05 19:57:58 actually, it's not called triton technically Jun 05 19:58:00 that's the code name Jun 05 19:58:02 But only reason I was actually looking was because I wanted to port node.js onto my pre and play with it and got sidetracked Jun 05 19:58:05 i forget the official name Jun 05 19:58:18 d8 i think Jun 05 19:59:07 no Jun 05 19:59:10 dammit - i forget Jun 05 19:59:22 what use are you…… :p Jun 05 19:59:35 that's a question people here ask every day Jun 05 19:59:35 :( Jun 05 19:59:51 * halfhalo pats beelzabub on the back Jun 05 20:02:40 oooooooo Jun 05 20:02:46 ? Jun 05 20:02:47 therse an os js dbus bridge Jun 05 20:03:10 what do you mean? Jun 05 20:03:16 http://sandbox.movial.com/wiki/index.php/Browser_DBus_Bridge Jun 05 20:03:58 interesting but not relevant to webos Jun 05 20:04:05 True Jun 05 20:04:20 you can already make system bus calls within apps Jun 05 20:04:39 & we technically have our own luna bus Jun 05 20:05:21 just happens to live on dbus Jun 05 20:06:52 hmmmmmm Jun 05 20:08:22 ehhhh Jun 05 20:08:25 to much effort Jun 05 20:08:32 to do what? Jun 05 20:09:05 halfhalo: check out also http://unadventure.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/javascript-to-d-bus-can-you-hear-me/ Jun 05 20:09:10 Main goal is to have node.js on my pre and tie into the service bus Jun 05 20:09:47 hmmm - i guess you don't have the headers to hook it up to the bus Jun 05 20:10:22 well, for the time being you could fake it Jun 05 20:10:26 Has anyone here been able to get createRange and getSelection().addRange to work? I can't seem to get these to select text in a div in WebOS. Jun 05 20:10:29 have it invoke luna-send Jun 05 20:10:39 true... Jun 05 20:10:57 yeah, we should probably really open-up luna-bus headers Jun 05 20:11:55 wait, will luna send work if I want a node.js service? Jun 05 20:12:03 oooooo - you could use the pdk Jun 05 20:12:07 I don't think so Jun 05 20:12:16 no, but the pdk will Jun 05 20:12:32 also, you could use triton as a bridge Jun 05 20:12:45 not ideal, but for prototyping purposes it might work Jun 05 20:13:11 theres no real documentation on it though… would all be trial and error methinks Jun 05 20:14:10 no documentation on triton? Jun 05 20:14:19 not that I can find Jun 05 20:14:41 may be - you probably might be able to use the existing services as templates Jun 05 20:15:02 as far as can tell the only one out there is the fb service Jun 05 20:15:09 sure Jun 05 20:18:38 hey is there an ipk for the terminal? where can iget it? Jun 05 20:24:13 hello? does anyone know how i can get the ipk for the terminal app? Jun 05 20:24:26 look at the feeds? Jun 05 20:24:28 sk1tt1sh: http://ipkg.preware.org/feeds/ Jun 05 20:24:43 sk1tt1sh: depending on how you install it might need to run the postinst script or something, idk Jun 05 20:25:52 nvm Jun 05 20:26:20 im putting it in my webosdoc Jun 05 20:26:35 so it will be all good since the phone restarts after running it :) Jun 05 20:26:44 :D Jun 05 20:30:31 you can download feeds from wosqi which i didnt know lol Jun 05 20:30:40 so now to figure out where it puts that shit Jun 05 20:31:16 lol just makes an install subdir hahaha Jun 05 20:59:49 oh god the ff memory leaks Jun 05 21:01:15 anyone use/have the widk handy? Jun 05 21:01:28 can they test/verify if groff builds for them? just a 'make stage' there Jun 05 21:01:36 preferrably on our 'support' ubuntu platform Jun 05 21:01:49 nope, sorry? Jun 05 21:03:08 http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/05/rumor-half-life-2-announcement-teased-by-freeman-art/ Jun 05 21:04:30 md5sums everywhere. yay Jun 05 21:16:13 http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/888884039_umVwa-L.jpg Jun 05 21:17:04 zsoc: 'ello :) Jun 05 21:17:35 ohayo gozaimasu Jun 05 21:19:03 appls Jun 05 21:20:22 dtzWill: you do everything for me yet so i can take credit for it? Jun 05 21:20:56 theres a thats what she said in there somewhere... Jun 05 21:21:56 ~CONGA! Jun 05 21:22:01 hmmm Jun 05 21:22:05 ~CONGA Jun 05 21:22:08 * zsoc fails Jun 05 21:22:11 yup Jun 05 21:22:45 where oh where did infobot go.... Jun 05 21:31:15 zsoc: nopers haha Jun 05 21:33:42 it's a destinal Jun 05 21:33:55 zsoc: they have been known to exist, rarely Jun 05 21:35:03 a wild destinal appears! Jun 05 21:35:07 * zsoc throws a pokeball at it Jun 05 21:35:43 * destinal ducks Jun 05 21:36:02 zsoc: anything interesting happening? Jun 05 21:36:13 * destinal skims logs Jun 05 21:36:15 destinal: interesting is a funny word Jun 05 21:36:23 I'm complaining about current PDK policies mostly Jun 05 21:36:27 even though they are pretty reasonable Jun 05 21:36:27 hello Jun 05 21:36:56 where can I get a tether app for the palm pixi Jun 05 21:37:05 preware testing feed Jun 05 21:37:06 zsoc: is the PDK finally good to use for javascript + native apps in the real world? Jun 05 21:37:19 destinal: yes, i /think/ wIRC is working, or close to it Jun 05 21:37:40 destinal: I got most of the way done with zcorder, but turns out I can't link gstreamer and still get it in the app catalog, so I took a break Jun 05 21:38:05 zsoc: and I take it being clever and runtime linking with dlopen is verboten? Jun 05 21:38:43 destinal: Well.. they have a 'whitelist' and an autochecker.. i could 'trick' them many ways, but someone I don't think that's fulldisclosure Jun 05 21:38:47 plus they probably test it at runtime Jun 05 21:38:51 does anyone know Jun 05 21:39:01 john: i just told you Jun 05 21:39:11 john: there's freetether in the testing feed Jun 05 21:39:39 in preware app Jun 05 21:41:40 ~~~~ Jun 05 21:41:44 is infobot on vacation? Jun 05 21:42:06 destinal: i guess he is dead again Jun 05 21:42:56 i don't know if the autochecker will catch it or not, but i don't recommend it Jun 05 21:43:13 it's not like palm people aren't on here Jun 05 21:43:30 so even if you do manage to get past it, if you're violating policy, it's likely it'll get pulled Jun 05 21:43:34 beelzabub: like I said, I don't think any of us are interested in trying to cheat :) Jun 05 21:43:38 :) Jun 05 21:43:46 there's actually a good reason to not link against libraries we haven't whitelisted Jun 05 21:43:53 forwards-compatibility Jun 05 21:43:54 beelzabub: I'd be interested in hearing it Jun 05 21:44:06 I debunked both security and forward compatibility in my last forum post Jun 05 21:44:10 er, well for glib and gstreamer Jun 05 21:44:19 i'm sure there's good reasons for libs i'm not familiar with Jun 05 21:44:27 if we allowed you to link against any library, then we'd essentially have to guarantee that those libs exhist Jun 05 21:44:36 why Jun 05 21:44:37 hello i switched to my laptop could not read the responce on my phone Jun 05 21:44:39 where's that post - let me read it to get familiar with your position Jun 05 21:44:59 ok where can i get a app to tether my pixi Jun 05 21:45:04 beelzabub: clearly it's the developers responsibility to make sure his application is compatible. That's why devs can apply for the early release program Jun 05 21:45:13 sure Jun 05 21:45:22 but in the real world, there are customers Jun 05 21:45:34 those customers would get pissed if an update we release makes their apps not work Jun 05 21:45:48 they might be ok with minor UI glitches Jun 05 21:45:55 the app not launching is probably not acceptable Jun 05 21:46:28 I agree that's reasonable.. but gstreamer's API compatibility hasn't changed in 5 years, literally, since 0.10.0, current is 0.10.29, and webOS is on 0.10.21 Jun 05 21:46:42 second of all, i suspect part of it is that we're still trying to figure out the security policy for native apps Jun 05 21:46:55 its not like you guys are releasing blindingly new libs Jun 05 21:47:07 but we do remove libraries Jun 05 21:47:15 hello does anyone know where to get a tether app for the palm pixi Jun 05 21:47:25 security policy is No FS write + unpriviledged user. that's safe enough. Jun 05 21:47:42 beelzabub: you can't remove gstreamer... every aspect of media on webOS is based on mediaserver which is a giant gstreamer app Jun 05 21:47:54 that's a ridiculous statement Jun 05 21:47:58 heh Jun 05 21:48:04 Which one? Jun 05 21:48:08 this is an amusing conversation, that's for sure Jun 05 21:48:09 * zsoc makes many ridiculous statements Jun 05 21:48:09 the gstreamer one Jun 05 21:48:18 we can remove gstreamer & do what ever we want Jun 05 21:48:20 several reasons Jun 05 21:48:27 one being mediaserver abstracts it Jun 05 21:48:35 whateva, whateva, i'll do what I want! Jun 05 21:48:36 thus we just need the mediaserver interface Jun 05 21:48:37 Mediaserver abstracts.. what? Jun 05 21:48:52 mediaserver is an abstract interface to media AFAIK Jun 05 21:48:55 beelzabub: I think that still trying to figure it out is likely. unfortunately if a whitelist approach is being done for security reasons there are lots of ways it could be circumvented (though I guess catching the less sophisticated evil software is still valuable) :) Jun 05 21:48:59 it doesn't expose gstreamer Jun 05 21:49:13 destinal: there's actually a more sophisticated method Jun 05 21:49:30 i can't recall what we announced during developer days so i'm not going to say much more Jun 05 21:49:30 beelzabub: That's reasonable, but it's not like there are a lot of OSS media options... gstreamer or ffmpeg.. that's pretty much it Jun 05 21:49:37 or a homebrew one Jun 05 21:49:43 i'm not saying gstreamer is going away Jun 05 21:49:54 it may stay around forever Jun 05 21:50:07 it doesn't mean it's a good idea to allow 3rd parties to have a dependancy there Jun 05 21:50:09 but you're just saying it doesn't have to since the stuff it does is abstracted away Jun 05 21:50:24 beelzabub: You're absolutely right. I'm just a sore loser. Jun 05 21:50:28 and /really/ want access to gst :p Jun 05 21:50:30 beelzabub: I think fundamentally so long as you're not reviewing the binary with a human being opcode by opcode, there's ways to get past it, as a generality Jun 05 21:50:30 :) Jun 05 21:50:41 are there SDL media extensions which can take the place of gstreamer or use it in general ? Jun 05 21:50:48 destinal: you've got the wrong mindset Jun 05 21:50:54 bpdalino: no clue Jun 05 21:51:05 i wish we had some PDK/SDL/media guys on IRC Jun 05 21:51:15 beelzabub: me three :p Jun 05 21:51:19 yeah that would be decent Jun 05 21:51:33 bpadalino: SDL is still a rather young project.. especially the media aspect of it Jun 05 21:51:48 here's to hoping palm can help contribute :) Jun 05 21:51:55 beelzabub: I agree that making it harder is smart and dynamic and static analysis can make it harder. Jun 05 21:53:04 I'm still sort of flabberghasted by the gst-ffmpeg shift in >1.4.0.. it's just so.. old Jun 05 21:53:17 don't tell me Jun 05 21:53:22 beelzabub: but I'm a security researcher so I find this whole topic (of trying to allow binary execution but still restrict it) fascinating Jun 05 21:53:27 i'll restrain Jun 05 21:53:34 i've been pushing us to upgrade all sorts of OSS packages Jun 05 21:53:47 beelzabub: start with GLib :) Jun 05 21:54:32 beelzabub: things were so much simpler when you could rely on packages only being javascript / mojo and thus had a sandbox Jun 05 21:54:42 but people like their need for speed ;) Jun 05 21:55:03 destinal: i can't comment on stuff that hasn't been released Jun 05 21:55:35 or at least, i don't know what i am and not allowed to comment on, so i'd rather be cautious Jun 05 21:55:54 ok thank you for the info i needed Jun 05 21:55:56 beelzabub: fair enough -- just talking theory anyway :) Jun 05 21:56:34 unfortunately my knowledge of the theory is tainted by knowledge of how we will do it :) Jun 05 21:57:41 but in broad topics, it's not impossible. capability-based security has been around in linux for a while even though it's presented its own set of challenges Jun 05 21:57:57 zsoc: don't get me started on upgrading glib Jun 05 21:58:21 beelzabub: that's a good point. i know someone in this channel had suggested doing SELinux last year, guess they never got back to that Jun 05 21:58:24 what's the version at on production devices? Jun 05 21:58:27 (homebrew folks i MEAN) Jun 05 21:58:49 SELinux is interesting, but i dunno that it's a good approach for running untrusted code Jun 05 21:59:18 i think of SELinux as a layer of protection for the kernel Jun 05 21:59:25 GLib? er... 2.0-2.14? or something Jun 05 21:59:34 ok Jun 05 21:59:42 doesn't google run their NaCl plugins in a different ring processor wise to help sandbox it ? Jun 05 21:59:50 beelzabub: linux containers! :) Jun 05 21:59:57 don't know what that is Jun 05 22:00:14 bpadalino: i'm pretty sure no one uses more than 2 rings in HW Jun 05 22:00:22 it's too much of a pain to manage in software Jun 05 22:00:23 bpadalino: what? nacl code is a subset of possible x86 code--IIRC it imposes rules like branch targets statically Jun 05 22:00:33 hold on Jun 05 22:00:35 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnativeclient.googlecode.com%2Fsvn%2Ftrunk%2Fsrc%2Fnative_client%2Fdocumentation%2Fnacl_paper.pdf&ei=4cgKTIT9GoKB8gaj8NSdCQ&usg=AFQjCNFpH5ReSMEtCAve4kTrMGbBIJzATg&sig2=uMHYg7H2Knvypywkwr8mNg Jun 05 22:00:37 does that link work ? Jun 05 22:00:52 bpadalino: http://nativeclient.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/src/native_client/documentation/nacl_paper.pdf lol Jun 05 22:00:54 that's not a pdf that exploits the 0-day vulnerability from today, is it? Jun 05 22:00:55 :) Jun 05 22:00:56 yes Jun 05 22:01:04 that's what i was just pointing to Jun 05 22:01:16 bpadalino: oh you just have it google-ref-ified Jun 05 22:01:24 yeah apparently Jun 05 22:01:24 sorry Jun 05 22:01:38 nah google does it iirc i think i have some extension that prevents that, shrug Jun 05 22:06:24 ah, so they have a predefined set of rules and special calls to nacl libs to get outside it seems ? Jun 05 22:08:18 decent paper those nacl guys wrote Jun 05 22:08:28 bpadalino: interseting read sure Jun 05 22:08:54 bpadalino: they have an ARM port too iirc Jun 05 22:08:56 beelzabub: I'm getting to the point where I'm going to just kill all adobe software on my box and just run open source PDF readers etc. Adobe has proven way too risky of late Jun 05 22:09:03 bpadalino: don't remember what they did for x86_64 since no segmentation regs Jun 05 22:09:08 the only thing i run is flash Jun 05 22:09:17 dunno any open-source alternatives that are up to par Jun 05 22:09:21 i don't think i've ever used adobe products Jun 05 22:09:26 er, besides flash Jun 05 22:09:28 the kde pdf viewer is miles ahead of the adobe one Jun 05 22:09:37 yeah i like okular too Jun 05 22:10:26 bpadalino: http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/w/list has some interesting stuff :) Jun 05 22:10:37 ooh. nice Jun 05 22:11:03 nacl makes me nervous Jun 05 22:11:09 Portable NaCl executables .. nice Jun 05 22:11:13 and hopefully the world migrates from flash stuff to html5-based apps. flash is getting redundant with modern browsers having the client side capabilities they do now Jun 05 22:11:36 heh, they use llvm .. interesting Jun 05 22:11:44 llvm has turned out to be a very very popular project Jun 05 22:11:54 beelzabub: why is that ? Jun 05 22:11:54 it's got interesting potentially Jun 05 22:12:14 a new tool at work i am evaluating uses gcc-llvm for C -> VHDL conversion Jun 05 22:12:26 bpadalino: Isn't NaCl table salt? Jun 05 22:12:32 distributing native code over the web seems like it'll cause a whole new range of security issues that developers will play whack-a-mole with again Jun 05 22:12:45 destinal: in google's terms, it's Native Client .. but i think it's a play off common table salt, yes Jun 05 22:13:08 beelzabub: you think it'll be activeX all over again ? Jun 05 22:13:16 not quite that bad Jun 05 22:13:25 because they're sandboxing it from the get-go Jun 05 22:13:34 nah, their sanbox guarnatees immediately make it better than activex Jun 05 22:13:37 yeah Jun 05 22:13:40 but i think there will be non-obvious problems that might get exploitde Jun 05 22:13:56 <3 llvm :) Jun 05 22:13:58 Johnny was a chemist's son, But Johnny is no more. What Johnny thought was H2O Was H2SO4. Jun 05 22:14:00 i would be willing to wager one of the things will be stolen information Jun 05 22:14:31 like managing to bypass the sandbox to skim the user's address book & whatnot, in a cross-platform way to boot Jun 05 22:14:34 sulfuric acid! Jun 05 22:14:54 or to combine with exhisting botnets Jun 05 22:15:01 beelzabub: yeah - that'll be interesting .. less about taking over the machine, but just skimming info from ti Jun 05 22:15:06 * dtzWill works on llvm research group Jun 05 22:15:19 bpadalino: yeah llvm's used everywhere Jun 05 22:15:29 dtzWill: oh you do?? very cool! Jun 05 22:15:32 i didn't realize Jun 05 22:15:36 imagine: malware points user's browser to a webpage that serves the latest version of malware Jun 05 22:15:55 although i guess they already kinda do that through signed software updates Jun 05 22:16:19 signed malware Jun 05 22:16:33 yeah - that's how that stuff works these days Jun 05 22:16:38 they only will executed trusted code Jun 05 22:16:41 which is kind of ironic Jun 05 22:17:02 public/private key cryptography Jun 05 22:17:15 makes sure that security researchers can't dismantle botnets by sending a kill code Jun 05 22:17:23 bpadalino: idk if you're serious, but yes i do. and *i* think it's pretty cool :):) Jun 05 22:17:27 similarly prevents other malware authors from taking over their botnet Jun 05 22:17:37 johnny's an american Jun 05 22:17:43 it'll be intersting seeing where nacl goes Jun 05 22:17:58 dtzWill: i am very serious .. i've looked at llvm for a while and i like their arbitrary precision integer support Jun 05 22:18:04 johnny was following the texas textbooks Jun 05 22:18:11 lol Jun 05 22:18:12 int4096 is just amusing to me Jun 05 22:18:14 he prayed to jesus - that should have been enough Jun 05 22:18:21 bpadalino: amusing indeed :) Jun 05 22:19:40 for my world, it's nice to be able to choose int18, and uint18 just as a datatype .. instead of having to shift/mask, etc Jun 05 22:21:13 i think the stuff palm is doing with the hybrid apps is very cool as well .. i hope the next public release of the pdk allows for some interesting developments Jun 05 22:22:08 i wonder if programmable logic will ever make it to mainstream computing .. similar to this PNaCl google stuff .. distribute an LLVM executable of your hardware .. Jun 05 22:22:17 have it target your programmable logic Jun 05 22:22:34 and attach as a PCIe device Jun 05 22:23:34 bpadalino - i don't get it Jun 05 22:23:40 isn't that just an FPGA? Jun 05 22:23:45 they're already reprogrammable Jun 05 22:24:26 beelzabub: indeed they are, but they're not part of a normal computing system yet .. Jun 05 22:24:34 and the architectures are all different for all the different families Jun 05 22:24:36 right - but how would llvm help you here? Jun 05 22:24:46 llvm is the intermediate to store your algorithm Jun 05 22:25:00 how is that different that just distributing the raw vhdl? Jun 05 22:25:25 it's a bit more distilled since you get rid of data dependencies, you perform constant propogation, etc Jun 05 22:25:34 maybe i guess Jun 05 22:26:05 don't think it would be worth it ? Jun 05 22:26:21 i dunno enough about the problem space & haven't thought about it Jun 05 22:26:43 sounds interesting (although what constant propogation are you thinking off in HW?) Jun 05 22:26:55 also, HW optimization is a completely different beast Jun 05 22:27:25 AFAIK, state-of-the-art FPGA optimization uses simmulated annealing Jun 05 22:27:45 at least that's what they taught us in school Jun 05 22:28:33 they've gotten a little smarter now .. they do a lot of physical modeling now of the routing Jun 05 22:28:40 yes, you are right Jun 05 22:28:47 it kind of resembles a traveling salesman with weighted paths Jun 05 22:29:03 and constraints are used more in the synthesis part versus the place and route part Jun 05 22:29:11 so you know whats running slow and what's running fast Jun 05 22:29:30 ok - it's been a few years since i did HW Jun 05 22:29:53 yeah, no biggie .. just letting you know .. :) Jun 05 22:30:00 it would be cool though if PCs started shipping with FPGAs Jun 05 22:30:22 that would be extremely useful - you could build software that could have HW acceleration Jun 05 22:30:24 right, i think of things like game engines coming as some binary blob ready to be programmed into an FPGA Jun 05 22:30:45 meh, game engines are not as interesting to me Jun 05 22:30:45 or you could do a copression engine that ships with software .. Jun 05 22:30:51 exactly Jun 05 22:30:54 when you want to run large files through compression Jun 05 22:31:00 compression, HW acceleration of media etc Jun 05 22:31:21 yeah, that's what i was thinking of .. Jun 05 22:31:35 you could essentially build a media center from regular components that would run super-cool because all the expensive computation bits would be offloaded to dedicated HW Jun 05 22:31:47 dedicated reprogrammable HW :) Jun 05 22:33:06 maybe sometime in the future, now that the GHz war seem to be over and it's onto the core-war Jun 05 22:33:08 yup - however, that's a pipe dream. intel would kill it before it ever got off the ground Jun 05 22:33:42 i've seen some interesting FPGA's mounted as 2nd CPU's in a dual-cpu board .. Jun 05 22:33:45 that was interesting Jun 05 22:33:49 hmm Jun 05 22:34:07 i think they were used for financial market modeling and quick GPP access Jun 05 22:34:17 there was actually a company a while back that was trying something really interesting with general purposes CPUs that would adapt to the code they were running Jun 05 22:34:41 http://old.xtremedatainc.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=60 - that was what i had seen before Jun 05 22:34:54 ah, so like dynamic microcode ? Jun 05 22:35:04 i guess Jun 05 22:35:22 i think it was a nice pipe dream that turned out to be more complex & less efficient than was hoped for Jun 05 22:35:31 that is sick - i want one Jun 05 22:35:34 i wonder if that would be just as good? if you could get a set of maybe 256 instructions that could be runtime programmable .. Jun 05 22:35:48 then you can use said instruction to be a complex set you want to run Jun 05 22:36:03 yeah, but i don't think the SW could directly drive the architecture Jun 05 22:36:06 it was self-configuring Jun 05 22:36:09 ah Jun 05 22:36:25 that sounds pretty hard to do when you have so much going on for a processor Jun 05 22:36:36 beelzabub: have you seen what xilinx is doing for the future? Jun 05 22:36:43 nope Jun 05 22:36:45 arm a9 with high-speed FPGA fabric connected Jun 05 22:36:54 me wants Jun 05 22:36:57 heh Jun 05 22:36:59 interesting Jun 05 22:37:04 i dunno that i would want that though Jun 05 22:37:27 http://press.xilinx.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=212763&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1418796 Jun 05 22:37:27 arm platforms tend to be in the embedded space where there's plenty of dedicated asics to do all the interesting stuff anyways Jun 05 22:38:02 that's a good point .. i'm interested since i do SDR .. but you're right Jun 05 22:38:17 i wonder if this would be useful to help get ARM into the server market, tho Jun 05 22:38:28 hmmm... i dunno Jun 05 22:38:33 i doubt it Jun 05 22:38:48 i don't think arm has the expertise to take on x86 in performance Jun 05 22:39:05 not in servers Jun 05 22:39:10 and not anytime soon Jun 05 22:39:38 but i don't know - the tech industry is a very weird beast Jun 05 22:39:44 indeed it is Jun 05 22:40:30 i didn't mean to hijack the channel with this reprogrammable computing talk.. sorry Jun 05 22:40:51 back to the normally scheduled webos internals discussions .. pdk, javascript, kernels, yadda Jun 05 22:40:54 :) Jun 05 22:41:10 :) Jun 05 22:41:13 bpadalino, but its fun stuff. :) Jun 05 22:41:45 ka6sox-work: you know it! Jun 05 22:44:17 bpadalino: aw, man, there's a schedule? I'm always the last to know these things Jun 05 22:45:09 destinal: it's ok .. you must have just missed the memo Jun 05 22:45:55 did you remember to send it in triplicate along with the tps report? Jun 05 22:47:10 it was sandwiched by TPS reports Jun 05 22:47:35 that's some kind of weird beauraucratic porn fetish i don't want to get into Jun 05 22:47:49 hahahahaha Jun 05 22:49:08 whats good Jun 05 22:50:39 speedy1 does the ucf have the index pin set for lvcmos33? Jun 05 22:50:58 hmmm...thats not gonna work. Jun 05 23:28:30 ooooooo Jun 05 23:28:32 websockets Jun 05 23:28:35 me like Jun 05 23:35:42 do you ? Jun 05 23:35:47 what do you think you'd do with websockets ? Jun 05 23:36:06 honestly? make a non crap interface for the node irc thing Jun 05 23:37:01 websockets are special sockets still .. not just a raw socket, right ? Jun 05 23:37:08 right Jun 05 23:37:36 going to use http://github.com/LearnBoost/Socket.IO-node Jun 05 23:38:39 interesting .. so where do websockets come into play? Jun 05 23:39:12 I'm going to use them as a bridge between a webpage client and the node.js server Jun 05 23:39:30 ah, gotcha Jun 05 23:43:15 But… I think I have to drastically change the irc class I have now Jun 05 23:43:17 fun fun Jun 05 23:45:15 ah well, that can wait till after dinner Jun 05 23:50:17 sounds fun Jun 06 00:03:10 hello i need some help Jun 06 00:03:29 anyone here Jun 06 00:04:12 yo Jun 06 00:05:03 hows it going Jun 06 00:05:32 for the last 2 hours i been trying to get freetether for my pixi with no luck so far Jun 06 00:05:58 is there a way to down load it thru preware Jun 06 00:06:46 i want to be able to tether my laptop with my pixi Jun 06 00:06:59 beelzabub: i shoulda asked, what stuff do you work on at palm? seems like lots of kernel/low-level guys here .. Jun 06 00:07:19 yup, for the most part that's what i work on Jun 06 00:07:31 doing some stuff on SysMgr right now Jun 06 00:07:45 i just got this phone the other day Jun 06 00:07:56 beelzabub: cool - so you, geist, eieio and chrisa all hang out ? Jun 06 00:08:01 i had the centro before this Jun 06 00:08:12 don't know who eieio is Jun 06 00:08:18 i hang out sometimes with geist Jun 06 00:08:21 not so much with chrisa Jun 06 00:08:27 i dont' think we've actually met in person Jun 06 00:09:35 any idea when webos will get its next update Jun 06 00:09:46 hey guys, i'm trying to get novacom to run on ubuntu 9.10 64bit and i'm having some troubles, can someone give me a hand? Jun 06 00:09:48 no comment Jun 06 00:09:58 I've found a few debs but they are all 32bit, and if i --force-arcitecture they seem not to work Jun 06 00:09:59 lol Jun 06 00:10:00 john: i hear it'll be somewhat soon .. but no official word Jun 06 00:10:28 i don't think we ever pre-announce them Jun 06 00:10:33 they just show up in the update stream Jun 06 00:10:37 right Jun 06 00:10:41 maybe tomorrow for the 1 year anniversary Jun 06 00:10:49 beelzabub: generally there are articles on journalist sites that say when developers get beta versions Jun 06 00:10:52 like precentral Jun 06 00:10:54 beelzabub: any of you palm guys doing anything special for the 1 year release anniversary ? Jun 06 00:11:01 ya i hear the same i been working on a few apps but i dont want to finsh them because with my luck they wont work with the update Jun 06 00:11:09 that's a good idea - i didn't even realize it was the 1 year tomorrow Jun 06 00:11:19 nothing officially Jun 06 00:11:53 so is anyone running novacom on a 64bit version of linux? Jun 06 00:11:56 doesnt seem many people are celebrating Jun 06 00:12:01 iamasilly: not me, sorry .. :( Jun 06 00:12:17 iamasilly - should work with 32-bit compat libraries Jun 06 00:12:22 what are other people's experiences - do updates break apps? Jun 06 00:12:30 at least apps that have made it into the catalog? Jun 06 00:13:17 i wish the vibation was stronger on the plam seems weak Jun 06 00:13:21 generally updates don't break my stuff .. but i don't have a plethora of apps Jun 06 00:14:14 john: i think there's a patch available from preware to make the vibration time longer Jun 06 00:14:19 i love my pixi was going to get the veo today but it is the size of a vcr Jun 06 00:14:39 evo Jun 06 00:14:42 oh you have a sprint pixi ? Jun 06 00:14:53 ya Jun 06 00:15:18 interesting .. you're happy with it so far ? Jun 06 00:15:31 ya so far i love it Jun 06 00:15:37 bought 2 Jun 06 00:15:41 oh yay i got it working Jun 06 00:15:45 i just needed i32a-libs Jun 06 00:15:50 thanks guys Jun 06 00:15:54 good to know Jun 06 00:16:12 er, ia32libs rather :) Jun 06 00:16:18 just need to get tether up and working then i will be set Jun 06 00:16:35 john: preware testing feeds Jun 06 00:16:38 john: so you want usbnet stuff ? Jun 06 00:16:47 since the pixi on sprint doesn't have wifi Jun 06 00:16:59 i was useing my htc cause of the tethering as easy to get but i went with the pixi Jun 06 00:17:18 ya i guess Jun 06 00:17:26 alright, i'm out Jun 06 00:17:28 see ya Jun 06 00:17:38 later Jun 06 00:17:41 john: first you need to turn on usbnet.. the command is "usbnet enable" from command line Jun 06 00:17:55 later beelzabub Jun 06 00:18:16 how do i do that Jun 06 00:18:30 do i need any speal software Jun 06 00:19:07 this is a silly question.. do i have any recourse if i forget my lock screen pin? like is there a way to unlock it? Jun 06 00:19:39 i dont know my webos doctor could do it Jun 06 00:20:07 yes but i don't want to delete everything lol Jun 06 00:20:23 thats true Jun 06 00:21:18 if you reboot, does it come back up locked ? Jun 06 00:21:20 i haven't tried Jun 06 00:21:48 i would hope! lol Jun 06 00:21:49 iu'll try Jun 06 00:21:58 i never locked mine Jun 06 00:38:00 we should ship http://quakeone.com/forums/quake-talk/quake-central/2778-my-texturepack-quake-darkplaces.html with quake :D Jun 06 00:38:04 only 2.7G :D Jun 06 00:48:19 bpadalino: yeah, it reboots locked Jun 06 00:48:28 interesting Jun 06 00:48:43 what now in the whatwhat? Jun 06 00:48:51 locked phones reboot into locked state Jun 06 00:49:01 orly Jun 06 00:49:08 so how could you get out of locked state if the phone were locked and you forgot the key ? Jun 06 00:49:32 is the key stored in a db somewhere so if you were in dev mode, you could grab the pin ? Jun 06 00:49:53 Hmmmm Jun 06 00:49:58 bpadalino: probably but you could also just apply the pinlock bypass pathc Jun 06 00:51:06 true Jun 06 01:34:44 bpadalino: and of course if you didn't have devmode on, you could just send bootie the installer image over USB, mount the drive and touch the file to turn on devmode and reboot Jun 06 01:35:03 ah i didn't think of that .. good one Jun 06 01:35:58 once again physical security trumps any other kind :) Jun 06 01:36:56 absolutely Jun 06 02:09:24 herm..... Jun 06 02:10:23 well, the server is getting the clients data… but not the other way around it seems Jun 06 02:15:14 and…. I feel stupid Jun 06 02:15:47 I was trying to use the servers broadcast method which sends it to all clients BUT the one its related to Jun 06 02:25:44 GUYS IM PLAYING QUAKE ON A REAL SERVER LOL Jun 06 02:25:46 hahaha Jun 06 02:26:12 Ewww Jun 06 02:26:15 servers Jun 06 02:26:27 lol stfu Jun 06 02:26:28 :D Jun 06 02:26:35 heh Jun 06 02:26:47 trying to figure out the best way to set this up Jun 06 02:27:10 stupid server Jun 06 02:48:40 dtzWill: wait, quake on your phone? on an online server? lulz Jun 06 02:51:59 I hate making tabs Jun 06 02:52:53 did you see the interface for the node.js example chat service ? Jun 06 02:53:00 it's simple and looks pretty nice Jun 06 02:53:49 yeah, saw it Jun 06 02:54:00 but I have a way I want to set it up Jun 06 02:55:12 basically: everything in a 1000px container, a 40px tab area up top, the message area on the right taking up 80% of the space, the user list to the right of that, and under those two the text box and submit button **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Jun 06 02:59:56 2010