**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 11 02:59:57 2010 Sep 11 03:05:28 hello all Sep 11 04:07:29 hey Sep 11 04:07:51 govnah Sep 11 04:08:10 can someone explain oad average? Sep 11 04:08:34 what about it? Sep 11 04:09:02 load average = how many things waiting to execute. Sep 11 04:09:55 likke what do the numbers mean? Sep 11 04:11:28 http://tinyurl.com/koqavu Sep 11 04:12:45 hahahaha Sep 11 04:12:53 lol nice. Love it. Thanks. Sep 11 04:13:28 I was searching govnah load average Sep 11 12:29:09 r Sep 11 15:11:04 hi PuffTheMagic Sep 11 15:11:12 ;) Sep 11 15:11:21 better move the conversation here as there are more people listenning(they may have more clue) Sep 11 15:11:28 right Sep 11 15:11:54 basically I'm trying to make wifi work on the palm-pre from ssh Sep 11 15:12:05 I've done that: Sep 11 15:12:14 modprobe propriteary_wifi_driver Sep 11 15:12:27 and just before: Sep 11 15:12:28 watch -n 1 "cat /proc/interrupts | sort -k 2 -r" Sep 11 15:12:32 and that appeared: Sep 11 15:12:40 298: 182 GPIO WIFI_GPIO_INT Sep 11 15:12:55 so I bet it's something like the GPIO_TO_IRQ for the wifi Sep 11 15:13:04 but I wonder if it's necessary in libertas Sep 11 15:13:12 in wl1251_sdio it seemed optional Sep 11 15:13:28 also I looked at: Sep 11 15:15:13 well it seems like this code should not have to be in the wifi driver Sep 11 15:15:41 palm obviously did this so we couldnt use the in tree wifi driver Sep 11 15:15:45 one sec I'm talking to mickyel Sep 11 15:15:46 bbs Sep 11 15:23:40 so... Sep 11 15:23:44 I looked here: Sep 11 15:24:39 board-sirloin-3430-hsmmc.c Sep 11 15:24:43 there are some interresting stuff Sep 11 15:46:56 PuffTheMagic, Sep 11 15:46:58 $ novacom put file://home/gnutoo/sirloin_wifi.ko < sirloin_wifi.ko Sep 11 15:46:58 bad or error response from other side: 'file open failed' Sep 11 15:47:04 but novaterm -t works Sep 11 15:48:13 is / ro? Sep 11 15:49:01 yes I think s Sep 11 15:49:02 o Sep 11 15:49:05 thanks a lot Sep 11 15:54:22 maybe I need to card-detect it Sep 11 15:54:29 dmesg only shows mmc0 stuff Sep 11 16:34:38 GNUtoo|laptop, any progress? Sep 11 16:34:49 i havent seen the phone reboot in a while Sep 11 16:34:55 one sec Sep 11 16:35:00 I'm trying module stuff Sep 11 16:35:03 no need to reboot yet Sep 11 16:36:25 PuffTheMagic, do you think It's worth to get me a pre Sep 11 16:36:30 because djbclark proposed me Sep 11 16:37:09 depends if u want it just to hack on or if you want to use it as your phone Sep 11 16:37:14 GNUtoo|laptop: Out marrage will be beautiful. Sep 11 16:37:26 lol Sep 11 16:37:28 I don't plan to use non-free phones Sep 11 16:37:52 or if I do I won't be able to do normal stuff on it such as ssh, mails etc... Sep 11 16:37:57 so ifs just a dev toy and the price is right i say go for it Sep 11 16:38:31 ok Sep 11 16:38:34 I've no money left Sep 11 16:39:04 basically the plan would be wifi+GUI+keyboard Sep 11 16:39:06 not more Sep 11 16:39:12 the rest morphis will do it Sep 11 16:40:36 hmmm Sep 11 16:40:38 [37569.510000] sirloin_wifi: __init err: -19 Sep 11 16:42:15 hmmm ENODEV Sep 11 17:05:38 ping PuffTheMagic Sep 11 17:06:25 pong Sep 11 17:06:42 Connection timed out Sep 11 17:06:46 with scp Sep 11 17:10:12 umm Sep 11 17:10:23 how are u using scp? Sep 11 17:11:50 scp sirloin_wifi.ko gnutoo@bip.ryanhope.us: Sep 11 17:11:59 oh Sep 11 17:11:59 it worked not so long ago Sep 11 17:12:03 umm Sep 11 17:12:04 lol Sep 11 17:12:12 that domain expired yesterday Sep 11 17:12:16 lol Sep 11 17:12:17 i need to renew it ;) Sep 11 17:12:19 what's the IP? Sep 11 17:12:50 GNUtoo|laptop, pm Sep 11 17:12:57 ok Sep 11 17:16:41 [39777.700000] fill_kobj_path: path = '/class/firmware/firmware-mmc1:0001:' Sep 11 17:16:57 !!!! Sep 11 17:18:23 [39777.750000] libertas: can't load helper firmware Sep 11 17:18:23 [39777.750000] libertas: failed to load helper firmware Sep 11 17:18:34 do you have udev on it? Sep 11 17:19:19 ok seem so Sep 11 17:22:02 I'll reboot it Sep 11 17:22:10 I need to try again Sep 11 17:22:21 PuffTheMagic, ^^^ Sep 11 17:23:02 what's the reboot procedure already? Sep 11 17:23:06 tellbootie recover Sep 11 17:23:17 and then novathing mem:// Sep 11 17:23:21 or the countrary? Sep 11 17:23:31 countrary means reverse order Sep 11 17:24:50 yeah Sep 11 17:24:52 tellbootie recover Sep 11 17:24:55 ok Sep 11 17:25:02 novacom boot mem:// < uImage Sep 11 17:25:28 remote pre hacking is fun Sep 11 17:25:35 lol it's slow Sep 11 17:25:44 * PuffTheMagic sees his phone reboot with out touching it Sep 11 17:25:55 GNUtoo|laptop, better than none at all though Sep 11 17:25:59 but at least I don't have to use proprietary novacom stuff on my laptop Sep 11 17:26:03 of course! Sep 11 17:36:48 http://pastebin.com/RdAVk8vr Sep 11 17:36:55 I can reproduce at will onw Sep 11 17:36:58 *now Sep 11 17:37:01 procedure: Sep 11 17:37:26 echo 1 > /sys/user_hw/pins/wifi/reset/level Sep 11 17:37:43 insmod /home/gnutoo/sirloin_wifi.ko Sep 11 17:38:03 before libertas_sdio must be modprobed Sep 11 17:38:46 mmc1 Sep 11 17:38:47 woot Sep 11 17:39:30 parm: helper_name:charp Sep 11 17:39:31 parm: fw_name:charp Sep 11 17:39:35 maybe that could fix it Sep 11 17:39:40 indeed Sep 11 17:39:50 in the module there is: Sep 11 17:40:02 board_wl_vcc_enable(1); Sep 11 17:40:02 board_wl_rf_vcc_enable(1); Sep 11 17:40:02 board_rescan_wifi_slot(); Sep 11 17:42:54 crashed? Sep 11 17:43:16 ah right Sep 11 17:43:24 the wifiload stuff Sep 11 17:43:35 anyway it crashed just after loading the second firmware Sep 11 17:44:02 basically I removed udev Sep 11 17:44:06 and loaded it by hand Sep 11 17:44:21 because for some reason udev failed to load it Sep 11 17:44:30 maybe wrong name Sep 11 17:44:39 maybe with : Sep 11 17:44:43 parm: helper_name:charp Sep 11 17:44:43 parm: fw_name:charp Sep 11 17:44:47 this all sounds like u are getting close Sep 11 17:44:51 indeed Sep 11 17:45:11 what was the thing to prevent the crash of the kernel? Sep 11 17:45:23 the /sbin/wifisomething Sep 11 17:45:26 ohh Sep 11 17:45:29 wifidriver Sep 11 17:45:32 yes Sep 11 17:45:37 maybe it has some infos Sep 11 17:45:59 /usr/sbin btw Sep 11 17:46:02 yeah Sep 11 17:46:10 maybe the interupt? Sep 11 17:46:32 OMAP_SDIO_INTMODE_ARGS="param_use_sdio_irq=0" Sep 11 17:46:39 OMAP_SDIO_BUSWIDTH_ARGS="param_sdio_bus_width=0" Sep 11 17:46:43 maybe that Sep 11 17:46:44 ? Sep 11 17:46:53 no idea Sep 11 17:46:56 err Sep 11 17:47:05 what module were you loading? Sep 11 17:47:08 sd8xxx? Sep 11 17:47:37 libertas_sdio Sep 11 17:47:57 well OMAP_SDIO_INTMODE_ARGS is what marvell added for palm Sep 11 17:48:03 I know Sep 11 17:48:07 but they give some infos Sep 11 17:48:11 for instance for mmc1 struct Sep 11 17:48:30 there is also the GPIO_TO_IRQ to add to the party Sep 11 17:48:43 I'll eat soon Sep 11 17:48:53 do you need full module source code? Sep 11 17:49:32 ? Sep 11 17:49:34 http://pastebin.com/Hc30XeP6 Sep 11 17:49:45 my module Sep 11 17:49:48 ohh Sep 11 17:49:50 latest version? Sep 11 17:49:54 very hackish Sep 11 17:50:01 yes Sep 11 17:50:06 the only change is Sep 11 17:50:17 board_rescan_wifi_slot(); is not present in __exit Sep 11 17:50:26 on the one that is in your palm-pre Sep 11 17:50:49 it's gettind dark and I need a break Sep 11 17:50:53 k Sep 11 17:50:57 so want me to test it? Sep 11 17:51:15 do what you want Sep 11 17:51:44 if you want to test it it's up to you but as I won't be in front of the computer.... Sep 11 17:51:50 I wouldn't be able to help you Sep 11 17:51:58 k Sep 11 17:52:06 I'll tell you when I'm back Sep 11 17:53:13 k Sep 11 18:26:36 PuffTheMagic, do you have serial console? Sep 11 18:27:39 nope Sep 11 18:27:54 then maybe it's the latency Sep 11 18:28:05 hmmm Sep 11 18:28:08 I wonder Sep 11 18:28:09 ? Sep 11 18:28:14 whats the issue? Sep 11 18:28:15 if you do something locally like: Sep 11 18:28:22 while true;dmesg -c;done Sep 11 18:28:38 the issue is that it didn't print the cause of the crash Sep 11 18:29:54 could be latency Sep 11 18:30:56 ok Sep 11 18:31:19 maybe you could get a trace locally? Sep 11 18:31:26 if you have time you could try Sep 11 18:31:34 else I'll read loadwifi Sep 11 18:31:38 or whatever it's called Sep 11 18:33:55 PuffTheMagic, do you know how to load a firmware manually? Sep 11 18:35:17 i do... modprobe fw_name=/path helper_name=/path Sep 11 18:35:21 idk of any other way Sep 11 18:35:30 ok Sep 11 18:35:33 try with modprobe Sep 11 18:35:45 i have Sep 11 18:35:47 btw I suspect that fw_name is not a path Sep 11 18:35:51 but a filename Sep 11 18:35:58 well look in wifidriver Sep 11 18:36:00 and that udev looks in standard locations for the firmware Sep 11 18:36:01 it passes a path Sep 11 18:36:04 ok Sep 11 18:36:08 and in sd8686.c Sep 11 18:36:12 but here it's libertas_sdio Sep 11 18:36:15 ok Sep 11 18:36:23 actually Sep 11 18:36:24 ahh you're trying with marevll driver Sep 11 18:36:27 maybe it defualts to in /lib Sep 11 18:36:31 ok Sep 11 18:36:34 idk Sep 11 18:36:38 i tried with both Sep 11 18:36:42 ok Sep 11 18:36:44 libertas_sdio and sd8686 Sep 11 18:36:52 sd8686 made more noise in dmesg Sep 11 18:36:56 and: Sep 11 18:36:57 ok Sep 11 18:37:04 did it load the firmware? Sep 11 18:37:12 filter mmc0 stuff in dmesg Sep 11 18:37:17 because else it's too noisy Sep 11 18:37:19 like that: Sep 11 18:37:24 i grepped for mmc1 Sep 11 18:37:28 and didnt see anything Sep 11 18:37:35 ok Sep 11 18:37:40 the procedure is quite complex Sep 11 18:37:50 i did Sep 11 18:37:58 modprobe sirloin_wifi Sep 11 18:38:05 no Sep 11 18:38:10 as it rebooted Sep 11 18:38:20 i rebooted back into your kernel Sep 11 18:38:22 you loaded my kernel I bet Sep 11 18:38:25 then: Sep 11 18:38:36 echo 1 > /sys/user_hw/pins/wifi/reset/level Sep 11 18:38:39 ahh Sep 11 18:38:44 you forgott that I bet Sep 11 18:38:44 i did that after sirloin_wifi Sep 11 18:38:55 I tried only with before Sep 11 18:39:04 I bet after doesn't wrok Sep 11 18:39:06 im gonna reboot it Sep 11 18:39:09 ok Sep 11 18:39:18 do you want me to note down the steps? Sep 11 18:39:25 like I pastebin a copy of the console? Sep 11 18:39:48 sure Sep 11 18:40:09 let me find the good console Sep 11 18:40:09 booting Sep 11 18:40:13 ok Sep 11 18:41:01 i love seeing fbcon on the pre Sep 11 18:41:34 lol ok Sep 11 18:41:56 I had that on the htcdream but I had to disable it Sep 11 18:42:00 anything after echo 1> Sep 11 18:42:24 modpobe the libertas_sdio Sep 11 18:43:23 nothing in dmesg about mmc1 Sep 11 18:43:24 :( Sep 11 18:43:31 I'll do a howto Sep 11 18:43:36 reboot it in a clean way please Sep 11 18:43:39 I mean Sep 11 18:43:45 k Sep 11 18:43:46 reboot it using my kernel Sep 11 18:43:52 no cleanup needed Sep 11 18:44:06 booting Sep 11 18:44:35 ok Sep 11 18:44:38 give me one min Sep 11 18:52:09 PuffTheMagic, http://pastebin.com/U7MC9VC3 Sep 11 18:53:31 gives: Sep 11 18:53:31 http://pastebin.com/sNu6gT3D Sep 11 18:56:02 PuffTheMagic, ping Sep 11 18:56:26 ya Sep 11 18:56:55 so it crashes you say? Sep 11 18:58:02 yes Sep 11 18:58:55 could it be that libertas_sdio needs different fw? Sep 11 19:00:57 maybe Sep 11 19:01:01 but you remember Sep 11 19:01:11 the module from palm crashed the same way Sep 11 19:03:27 ok so Sep 11 19:03:38 in /lib/firmware Sep 11 19:03:41 i made a new dir Sep 11 19:03:43 marvel Sep 11 19:03:48 ok Sep 11 19:03:52 and i uploaded clean fw Sep 11 19:03:56 nice Sep 11 19:03:57 the helper_sd.bin's are the same Sep 11 19:03:58 thanks a lot Sep 11 19:04:03 but the sd8686.bin is not Sep 11 19:04:17 these fw are from SD-8686-FEDORA26FC6-SYSKT-GPL-9.70.3.p24-26409.P45 Sep 11 19:04:19 maybe I should try compat-wireless + GPIO_TI_IRQ Sep 11 19:04:22 *TO Sep 11 19:04:28 ok thanks Sep 11 19:05:13 http://elinux.org/Libertas_SDIO Sep 11 19:05:36 ok thanks Sep 11 19:05:41 I'll try compat-wireles then Sep 11 19:19:39 PuffTheMagic, rootfs 441.7M 441.7M 0 100% / Sep 11 19:19:58 what should I do? Sep 11 19:20:02 remove some modules? Sep 11 19:20:11 1 sec Sep 11 19:20:45 upload to /media/internal Sep 11 19:20:47 for large shit Sep 11 19:22:02 ok Sep 11 19:22:02 GNUtoo|laptop, yeah you gotta clean up your mess a little ;) Sep 11 19:22:11 what is large Sep 11 19:22:16 well Sep 11 19:22:19 rm -rf /* :D Sep 11 19:22:19 the modules don't take so much Sep 11 19:22:20 large than / Sep 11 19:22:28 larger than / is large Sep 11 19:31:34 how do you pull with novacomm? Sep 11 19:32:03 PuffTheMagic, ^^^ Sep 11 19:32:29 novacom get file://path > file Sep 11 19:32:43 ah get Sep 11 19:32:44 thanks a lot Sep 11 19:46:02 GNUtoo|laptop, any new ideas? Sep 11 19:46:21 I'm trying to install compat-wireless Sep 11 19:49:42 oh irght Sep 11 19:49:57 GNUtoo|laptop, so what about those other options the sd8xxx driver has Sep 11 19:50:14 think the driver calls some extra functions before the 2nd fw is loaded? Sep 11 19:50:26 I'll look after Sep 11 19:54:48 nice error message: Sep 11 19:54:50 [ 2383.570000] SDIO: Disabled device mmc1:0001:1 Sep 11 19:54:50 [ 2383.570000] libertas_sdio: probe of mmc1:0001:1 failed with error -12 Sep 11 19:55:32 define ENOMEM 12 /* Out of memory * Sep 11 19:55:42 strange Sep 11 19:56:01 which fw was that? Sep 11 19:57:04 the marvell one Sep 11 19:57:14 /lib/firmware/marvell/ Sep 11 19:59:37 did it reboot? Sep 11 19:59:46 doesn't seem so Sep 11 20:13:16 i wasnt paying attention Sep 11 20:29:12 http://pastebin.com/nDNz8zfe Sep 11 20:29:17 more detailed log Sep 11 20:31:03 I wonder how to addr2line externals modules Sep 11 20:34:50 I'll do some other stuff now Sep 11 20:35:06 unless I get udev to load the firmware Sep 11 20:40:58 I was writing scripts when I had: Sep 11 20:40:59 [ 570.470000] minicore_launch: CRASH! bootie-config(31278) received 11. Waiting up to 60s for minicore to attach. Sep 11 20:41:00 [ 571.900000] minicore_launch: minicore attached! Sep 11 20:41:00 strange Sep 11 20:42:19 PuffTheMagic, could you fix udev firmware's loading? Sep 11 20:42:33 I've loaded the compat-wireless scripts Sep 11 20:42:38 but it still fails with -2 Sep 11 20:42:57 yeah u can ignore that bootie-config issue Sep 11 20:43:01 ok Sep 11 20:43:10 what about udev though? Sep 11 20:43:22 I'll take a break Sep 11 20:43:31 could you try to fix udev during that time Sep 11 20:44:38 (too much computer and sitting on a chair => pain in the back) Sep 11 20:45:43 PuffTheMagic, in /home/gnutoo on the pre I've made a script Sep 11 20:45:48 load.sh Sep 11 20:45:57 and dmesg.sh Sep 11 20:46:12 you can use them Sep 11 20:47:18 so now u load your module after? Sep 11 20:47:39 yes Sep 11 20:53:44 PuffTheMagic, did you succeed at loading the firmwre? Sep 11 20:54:17 didnt try Sep 11 20:54:50 running load now Sep 11 20:55:14 ok Sep 11 20:55:21 udev has some debug mode Sep 11 20:55:25 maybe in udev-utils Sep 11 20:55:28 or something like that Sep 11 20:55:50 ahh its not running the right kernel atm Sep 11 20:55:59 yes it rebooted Sep 11 21:12:21 GNUtoo|laptop, your kernel is default now btw Sep 11 21:12:45 ok thanks Sep 11 21:36:53 PuffTheMagic, does it load the firmware now? Sep 11 21:38:21 udevadm monitor can help you Sep 11 21:53:09 GNUtoo|laptop, now what Sep 11 21:53:13 i didnt change anything Sep 11 21:53:16 i just ran your script Sep 11 21:53:22 and it crashed like it does for you Sep 11 21:59:52 I missed the beginning of all this and after reading a bit of it I'm super curious what you guys are doing Sep 11 21:59:52 PuffTheMagic: What are you two are doing? I diden't got the start of the conversation as my connection dropped. Sep 11 21:59:59 lol Sep 11 22:00:05 heh Sep 11 22:05:43 trying to get any of the opensource wifi drivers for the pre's wifi chip working Sep 11 22:07:15 but for what reason? Sep 11 22:07:44 I would understand this if you try to get a 'Palm' free Linux working or is this the big target? Sep 11 22:10:28 hape the closed source drivers is a major reason why we can't use newer kernels Sep 11 22:11:13 back Sep 11 22:11:16 I'll try myself Sep 11 22:17:39 jhowirc: ok Sep 11 22:41:40 GNUtoo|laptop: do you know about bootie klog ? Sep 11 22:41:51 no Sep 11 22:41:58 (allows you to see kernel log after a crash) Sep 11 22:41:59 it seem something nice Sep 11 22:43:25 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Bootie Sep 11 22:43:33 last line on the page Sep 11 22:43:46 ok Sep 11 22:43:51 I just did a tellbootie -h Sep 11 22:43:53 and it rebooted Sep 11 22:44:12 yes, tellbootie has no '-' arguments Sep 11 22:44:22 ok Sep 11 22:50:13 I bet I need the irq gpio Sep 11 22:50:17 I'll try Sep 11 23:38:02 I'll go to sleep soon Sep 11 23:40:11 * KGF2009 waves. Sep 11 23:40:45 hi Sep 11 23:43:39 will this work with Pre/Pixi batteries? http://cgi.ebay.com/PALM-MiCRO-CHARGER-SPARE-BATTERY-TREO-800w-CENTRO-/200482497797?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item2eadb02505#ht_1160wt_1139 Sep 11 23:46:06 possibly Sep 11 23:46:33 I know a lot of people haven't had issue with using those batteries in a Pre/Pixi, so I'd imagine that it'd charge a Pre/Pixi battery since they seem to be interchangeable Sep 11 23:52:03 or does someone knows if the libertas_sdio, libertas_tf_sdio or the marvell driver supports gpio interupts Sep 11 23:54:12 those are all drivers that might work with the wifi hardware in the pre? Sep 11 23:54:20 why on earth are there so many? Sep 12 00:03:14 "linux" Sep 12 00:15:09 libertas_sdio is the libertas in-kernel driver for the hardmac firmware Sep 12 00:15:28 the _tf is for thin-firmware that is to say softmac Sep 12 00:15:37 so mac80211 Sep 12 00:19:02 have there been any attempts to build a full jvm on the pre? Sep 12 00:19:16 not that I know of Sep 12 00:19:20 i assume, like mos things, the problem is graphics output Sep 12 00:21:33 at times i wish luna wasn't so shiny so we wouldn Sep 12 00:21:39 t feel bad Sep 12 00:21:45 about diching it for x11 Sep 12 01:14:07 Does anyone know where I can get Palm Pre firmware? I've been told 1.4.1.1 is outdated. o.o Sep 12 01:15:24 KGF2009, what carrier do you have? Sep 12 01:15:55 KGF2009: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Webos_Doctor_Versions Sep 12 01:18:18 Verizon. Sep 12 01:18:46 KGF2009, then you are up to date Sep 12 01:21:05 Oh, that sucks. Because wIRC is not working for me and I've heard that OS version could be the issue. But I figured a firmware question belongs here. Sep 12 01:21:54 you can use an earlier version of 1.4.1 Sep 12 01:24:58 And that would make it work? Sep 12 01:25:47 oil: http://www.travisglines.com/web-coding/node-js-unix-based-os-and-mongodb-num-are-the-new-lamp Sep 12 01:26:02 KGF2009: yes, previous versions of wIRC work on 1.4.1 Sep 12 01:27:33 But would that affect any compatibility with my current apps? Sep 12 01:28:12 KGF2009, I have Verizon (hence 1.4.1.1) and I run wIRC all the time. it's just an old version of it Sep 12 01:29:22 How old? I was told to use 0.2.4. Sep 12 01:30:27 024 for <145 Sep 12 01:31:03 Thing is, each time I try to connect I get "~~~ wIRCd is not running!" Sep 12 01:31:19 that shouldnt happen Sep 12 01:32:55 I had that happed before, I had to reboot my phone Sep 12 01:33:06 I've done that twice. Sep 12 01:33:13 One restart and one full shutdown. XP Sep 12 01:33:24 but now I have the upstart manager thing so I can start/stop wirc when I need to Sep 12 01:33:56 Upstart you say? Sep 12 01:33:58 * KGF2009 searches. Sep 12 01:35:15 Upstart Manager Service? Sep 12 01:35:19 KGF2009, not something I"d recommend unless you're familiar with linux systems Sep 12 01:35:36 Oh, but I am. Sep 12 01:35:55 in the wirc case I doubt it'd do anything for you that restarting the phone didn't already do Sep 12 01:36:23 though it would let you check the state of wircd independent of wirc... Sep 12 01:36:35 So how do I use this service, now? Sep 12 01:37:21 not the service... just the regular app (that I think depends on and uses the service) Sep 12 01:37:39 it just allows you to look through the system services and see what running and start/stop them Sep 12 01:38:08 I searched through preware for upstart and found just the service. Sep 12 01:38:20 1m, let me get my phone Sep 12 01:38:32 Mmkay. Sep 12 01:40:26 Quick question, if you pay for an app once, and it ends up deleted, can you re-download it for free? Sep 12 01:41:04 for me it's in preware under "Applications" Sep 12 01:42:58 KGF2009: yes Sep 12 01:42:58 It's not even under my "List of Everything". Sep 12 01:43:05 rwhitby: Thanks. Sep 12 01:43:12 weird... Sep 12 01:43:14 upstart manager is only in testing feed Sep 12 01:43:18 ~testing-feeds Sep 12 01:43:18 i heard testing-feeds is a means of testing new WebOS Internals products, documented at http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Testing_Feeds Sep 12 01:43:33 That might explain things. Sep 12 01:43:42 ... I always forget about the different feeds. oops Sep 12 01:44:24 Wow. Harsh first rule. Sep 12 01:44:29 Life of a developer, I suppose. Sep 12 02:03:55 ...I don't even have a wIRCd service. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Sep 12 02:59:57 2010