**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 08 02:59:57 2010 Dec 08 03:00:07 * scoutcamper turns halfhalo into a mime for not making an interesting conversation and being quiet Dec 08 03:00:23 ... Dec 08 03:31:51 * Clipper87 is signin off for sleep Dec 08 04:27:04 Question: We anywhere nearer on getting webos2.0 onto a Pre+-? Dec 08 04:29:04 Davide-NYC, nope Dec 08 04:30:18 bummer. any rumors on an official doctor release? Dec 08 04:34:09 none that ive seen Dec 08 04:34:36 * scoutcamper de-mimes halfhalo in order to get some good topics to talk about :D Dec 08 04:34:55 * halfhalo stabs scoutcamper in the jaw Dec 08 04:39:16 * scoutcamper nuetron bobs halfhalo Dec 08 04:40:55 s\bobs\bombs Dec 08 04:41:10 * scoutcamper feels hated by infobot Dec 08 04:41:13 :( Dec 08 04:41:18 ~botsmack Dec 08 04:41:18 OWW! Dec 08 04:42:31 Tips on where I can find documentation on how to swap the boards in my - & + to make a Sprint Pre+? Dec 08 04:42:56 dgathright, precentral Dec 08 04:43:03 let me find that link Dec 08 04:43:31 dgathright, http://forums.precentral.net/palm-pre-tips-information-resources/259077-pre-plus-sprint-step-step-conversion-guide.html Dec 08 04:43:47 grazie Dec 08 04:48:38 g'day dgathright Dec 08 04:50:43 Howdy Dec 08 05:29:18 ~botsnack Dec 08 05:29:19 aw, gee, halfhalo Dec 08 06:01:20 who do i need to talk to to get a new easter egg added to the wiki? Dec 08 06:03:19 there is a way to make cows rain down the screen in the email app in webos 2.0.1 that i found just now Dec 08 06:03:33 ahaha Dec 08 06:03:34 how? Dec 08 06:05:21 cwgtex, how? anyone with an account can make an edit Dec 08 06:07:02 cwgtex: you mean the "supercowpowers" one? Dec 08 06:07:49 rwhitby, what? Dec 08 06:08:08 how do you do that? Dec 08 06:08:17 yes supercowpower Dec 08 06:08:33 dangit rwhitby you mean i wasn't the first one to find it? Dec 08 06:08:54 * halfhalo lulz Dec 08 06:09:50 for everyone else that doesn't know what we are talking about, just send yourself and email with the subject "supercowpowers" without the quotes, and open it on your Pre2 Dec 08 06:10:14 * scoutcamper goes to try that Dec 08 06:10:14 its not on 1.4.5, just 2.0 Dec 08 06:11:42 LOLS! Dec 08 06:12:14 p|c has tweeted it Dec 08 06:14:04 cwgtex: you were first - I was just messing with you (I found it in the 2 minutes between those two messages) Dec 08 06:15:41 haha you got me good rod Dec 08 06:16:02 so then i can edit the wiki and give myself credit for the find? Dec 08 06:17:17 yep Dec 08 06:17:20 it's a wiki Dec 08 06:18:30 ok i meant the giving myself credit part Dec 08 06:18:43 i don't want to claim it if someone else actually found it first Dec 08 06:21:15 cwgtex: claim it, it's yours. Dec 08 06:25:55 credit is serious business Dec 08 06:26:34 yupyup Dec 08 06:26:36 i must say i am proud of myself, here i am studying the email app to learn about scenes and controllers so that i can develop apps, and i find an easter egg Dec 08 06:27:07 email app is pretty complicated, probably not the best one to learn from :) Dec 08 06:27:54 unless you want to go crazy. Dec 08 06:29:44 well i was both learning and seeing if i can update the landscape email patch, thats why i was in that one Dec 08 06:29:51 ah Dec 08 06:30:19 and yeah i do believe the email app was pretty complicated, i just happened to look in the images folder first and was shocked to see a cow Dec 08 06:30:41 so of course i greped the whole dang folder for "cow.png" Dec 08 06:31:24 lol Dec 08 06:31:44 wiki edit is done Dec 08 06:31:52 and precentral thread too Dec 08 06:33:35 rwhitby: thanks for screenshoting that for me in the thread Dec 08 06:33:45 *screenshooting Dec 08 06:34:05 it stopped some idiot saying "pics or it didn't happen" ;) Dec 08 06:34:18 lol Dec 08 06:37:47 i can't wait for people i actually know to get a pre2 (at my urging of course) so i can send them an email Dec 08 06:38:20 i can only imagine the look on there face when the cows start falling Dec 08 06:38:45 a recieved email with the subject supercowpowers triggers it? Dec 08 06:39:06 or hell just for the carriers to release 2.0 to the people i know with regular pre's Dec 08 06:39:10 its not typed in like the rocknroll one? Dec 08 06:39:21 oil: yeah Dec 08 06:39:22 nope Dec 08 06:39:24 oil: yes, i had to send myself an email with that subject Dec 08 06:39:34 * oil prefixes all future emails to rwhitby with supercowpowers Dec 08 06:39:59 hahahaha Dec 08 06:40:27 * halfhalo rigs up a php patch and a rails patch for mediawiki and redmine for cows Dec 08 06:41:15 this is the line that gave it away: if (subject === "supercowpowers") Dec 08 06:42:11 first i tried just typing that in a new message, but no luck, so i sent it to myself, and BAM its raining cows Dec 08 06:42:34 lol Dec 08 06:42:43 i hope emails from palm start using it xD Dec 08 06:48:35 there is also a neat comment in the message-scene.html file: http://forums.precentral.net/showthread.php?p=2788266&posted=1#post2788266 Dec 08 06:59:20 haha Dec 08 07:12:12 rwhitby, oil's photoshop of you on precentral http://i54.tinypic.com/335e05f.png Dec 08 07:12:21 haha Dec 08 07:12:51 hahahaha Dec 08 07:13:02 * oil cracks himself up Dec 08 07:14:09 nice Dec 08 07:15:00 hahahaha Dec 08 07:15:19 okay oil, you have outdone yourself this time. Dec 08 07:15:55 oil: it would have had more impact inline though :) Dec 08 07:16:35 * ka6sox sees oil edit the post Dec 08 07:17:40 ah, thats too easy Dec 08 07:17:48 making them click it is a surprise :) Dec 08 07:18:32 I've just gotten word that supercowpowers is spreading like an email virus through Palm right now Dec 08 07:18:45 hahahahaha Dec 08 07:18:45 HAHA Dec 08 07:19:10 lets hope they dont fogure out who it was so more eastereggs can be secretly added Dec 08 07:19:51 s/fogure/figure/ Dec 08 07:19:51 oil meant: lets hope they dont figure out who it was so more eastereggs can be secretly added Dec 08 07:20:09 Its an easter egg, i think they support it Dec 08 07:20:37 folks Dec 08 07:20:49 thats us, we're folk Dec 08 07:21:10 it ws my way of saying 'howdy' Dec 08 07:21:32 except for... herm... Dec 08 07:21:37 lol Dec 08 07:57:12 ~seen JackieRipper Dec 08 07:57:19 jackieripper <~JackieRip@cpe-67-246-22-153.nycap.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #webos-internals, 188d 3h 35m 27s ago, saying: 'good morning'. Dec 08 07:58:50 188 days ago :( Dec 08 08:01:27 lol Dec 08 08:07:38 halfhalo: I thought JackieRipper might like to know the optware-bootstrap script he started just got new life on android :) Dec 08 08:12:49 android-optware FTW Dec 08 08:13:42 * ka6sox hands it to halfhalo to put on his epic 4g Dec 08 08:15:36 optware on android wut Dec 08 10:21:53 Hi, can I do an file system check on media internal partition? Dec 08 10:52:09 heyho Dec 08 12:07:47 morphis: heyho Dec 08 12:08:07 GarthPS: heyho Dec 08 12:09:46 morphis: I am here all the day and evening if you need me Dec 08 12:10:04 GarthPS: ok Dec 08 12:10:22 GarthPS: the problem actually is, that the kernel from palmpre/master-next branch does not boot on my palm pre Dec 08 12:10:44 morphis: yop i read that Dec 08 12:10:49 GarthPS: so I have to bisect the branch and try to find the point in time where something went wrong Dec 08 12:11:17 morphis: what is weird is that it has already work right ? Dec 08 12:11:58 GarthPS: it worked before without the webos 2.0 patch for the kernel Dec 08 12:12:04 GarthPS: it works well with the 1.4.5 patch Dec 08 12:12:19 GarthPS: but the 2.0 patches change a lot of things to support even omap 3630 Dec 08 12:12:57 morphis: ok so what changed is add patches from webos 2 right ? Dec 08 12:13:21 jepp Dec 08 12:13:27 morphis: oh so It could support both SOC with the same kernel ? Dec 08 12:13:44 it does Dec 08 12:14:25 morphis: so should not be needed anymore to make a palmpre2 specific kernel? Dec 08 12:14:45 we need to do so Dec 08 12:15:25 as the difference between palmpre and palmpre2 is there, you just need to enable CONFIG_OMAP3630 to get support for the palmpre2 in the same kernel Dec 08 12:15:37 without it does not support the palmpre2, just the palmpre Dec 08 12:15:50 so you need different defconfigs and with that you have different binaries Dec 08 12:16:00 and even different kernels in OE Dec 08 12:16:15 morphis: oh yeah ok Dec 08 12:16:46 so to MACHINE profile but not much different Dec 08 12:17:02 jepp Dec 08 12:26:46 Hi, I am trying to restore the PDFviewer application with the WebOSRepairUtility.jar. I am using an Ubuntu VM and it seems I can connect nicely to the phone. Yet, after selecting webOSDoctor.jar, which I downloaded with that very tool, I get an error: ERROR: WebOS.tar.gz (Permission denied) Dec 08 12:26:54 I have no clue how to proceed? Dec 08 12:27:44 after clicking OK, another error pops up: ERROR 22: WebOS.tar.gz (no such file or directory) Dec 08 12:28:08 where do I get this tarball from? Do I have to extract it from the doctor jar? Dec 08 12:40:08 rwhitby: Hello. I want te see what it does if i install actualy ipks build from oe into my pre 2. what do i have to use ipkg or ipkg-opt ? what the diff?thx Dec 08 12:46:30 hi' Dec 08 12:47:00 to install preware they say run webos install Dec 08 12:47:12 how i do that? Dec 08 12:47:43 jack__: you mean webos quick install right ? Dec 08 12:47:52 yes Dec 08 12:48:42 jack__: http://forums.precentral.net/canuck-coding/194832-webos-quick-install.html Dec 08 12:50:11 jack__: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Tutorials_webOS_Installing_An_Ipk#WebOS_Quick_Install_Method Dec 08 12:51:07 ok Dec 08 12:51:11 .jar Dec 08 12:51:20 i open it on my computer or my phone? Dec 08 12:52:18 jack__: in your opinion ? :) Dec 08 12:52:43 I want te see what it does if i install actualy ipks build from oe into my pre 2. what do i have to use ipkg or ipkg-opt ? what the diff?thx Dec 08 12:52:57 on my computer with java Dec 08 12:53:10 :P Dec 08 12:58:15 GarthPS: you are on your own trying to install ipks from OE onto vendor firmware. Dec 08 12:58:46 You will get major collisions as you will be writing (and perhaps overwriting) system files. Dec 08 12:59:12 So if you have to ask about it, then you don't have the experience to do it safely. Dec 08 12:59:37 You can expect to lose any data and have to doctor afterwards. Dec 08 12:59:38 rwhitby-pre: yeah i know :) I just want to know the diff betwenn ipkg and ipkg-opt Dec 08 12:59:51 ipk-opt installs in /opt Dec 08 13:00:30 read the Optware pages on nslu2-linux.org Dec 08 13:01:25 rwhitby-pre: ok thx Dec 08 13:02:07 morphis: The kernel patch for 2.0.0 on opensource.palm.com is for Pre 2 only. It is not for 3430 Pre. Dec 08 13:02:37 The 2.0 kernel for Pre is not yet released. Dec 08 13:02:56 * rwhitby-pre bbt Dec 08 13:03:21 morphis: :) Dec 08 13:10:46 ah, found the cause: I had no write access to the shared folder in my VM... needed to mount it with the corresponding uid/gid Dec 08 13:11:03 seems it's working now, at least it scans Dec 08 13:24:27 hey all Dec 08 13:33:39 what's the file which corresponds to the PDFviewer application? Where can I find it in the extracted WebOS tarball so that I can restore it which the webOSRepair utility? Dec 08 13:37:26 is it enough to restore just everything with *pdf* from the tarball back to the device? Dec 08 13:46:23 rwhitby-pre: sure about that? Dec 08 13:46:39 rwhitby-pre: as it includes all stuff for the palm pre? Dec 08 13:49:07 rwhitby-pre: as opensource.palm.com tells it the source for the pre device Dec 08 13:49:29 rwhitby-pre: "Linux Kernel (pre) " Dec 08 14:52:20 the 2.0 kernel patch needs some changes to build for omap 3430 but I've booted it on my Pre Dec 08 15:47:15 can someone identify what the handset with the right arrow means? http://twitpic.com/3e2nn5 Dec 08 15:47:40 gsm? Dec 08 15:51:52 yes its gsm Dec 08 15:58:43 jhojho: is that missed call? Dec 08 15:58:57 well Dec 08 15:58:57 c Dec 08 15:58:57 a Dec 08 15:58:58 n Dec 08 15:58:58 t Dec 08 15:59:01 oops Dec 08 15:59:01 lol Dec 08 15:59:03 cant be Dec 08 15:59:06 no service? Dec 08 15:59:08 since its in the device menu Dec 08 15:59:13 it's a data only sim Dec 08 15:59:19 but the icon only showed up today Dec 08 15:59:22 egaudet: well gsm shows missed calls in top bar? since when? Dec 08 15:59:24 not yesterday Dec 08 15:59:26 look for the symbol in the rootfs Dec 08 15:59:36 i think it's a call forwarding Dec 08 15:59:37 and check the name of the file Dec 08 15:59:37 ;] Dec 08 15:59:47 call forwarding enabled hmm Dec 08 15:59:52 makes sense Dec 08 16:00:18 go to phone app/preferences and see if u have it enabled Dec 08 16:00:49 anyway i'm moving to epic from my pre Dec 08 16:01:06 he pre is barely usable now after year and a half... too many cracks etc :( Dec 08 16:02:29 donate it :D Dec 08 16:03:07 to me!!!! Dec 08 16:03:14 pre #5 Dec 08 16:03:29 well wait -- does the speaker work Dec 08 16:03:46 * halfhalo votes donate as well Dec 08 16:05:11 but then again, I'm probly not the best person to ask since I have a pre plus and minus just sitting on my desk at home Dec 08 16:05:34 * halfhalo knows the date he is moving back to webos fron epic 4g Dec 08 16:09:43 Anyone have an idea what "contact reminders" could mean? I found a section of the email app that says: /* TODO: Uncomment this once we reimplement contact reminders Dec 08 16:09:53 in 2.0.1 Dec 08 16:11:46 line 1157 in compose-assistant.js Dec 08 16:24:32 sounds badass Dec 08 16:39:46 * halfhalo is tempted to replace wIRC's alias stuff with a smaller/cleaner way Dec 08 17:16:19 morphis, the userland in the pre doesn't match the userland in the pre2 so I am sure. Dec 08 17:16:42 if it were just that simple then we would all be doin it Dec 08 17:16:52 ka6sox: thats ok, but the kernel source should be still the mostly the same for pre and pre2 Dec 08 17:17:49 99.9% probaby...but that 0.1%...oh what a difference it makes. Dec 08 17:18:45 there are config constraints for the pre2 in the kernel sources Dec 08 17:18:49 so it should be no problem Dec 08 17:18:57 eg: temp sensor code for a pre-/+ has a hard coded call to bit(8) of a register...but in a pre(2) its bit(9) Dec 08 17:19:07 so it FAILED to run. Dec 08 17:19:41 and then it was used to cook bacon.... Dec 08 17:20:10 yes, I had a Lettuce Mutton and tomato sandwich made on it. Dec 08 17:20:28 I went with a classic BLT myself Dec 08 17:21:03 Wow. Dec 08 17:21:55 * halfhalo hands Rick_work a samich Dec 08 17:24:40 ka6sox: but the temp sensor code is from webos-internals right? Dec 08 17:24:49 ka6sox: as I am using the plain sources from palm Dec 08 17:25:09 morphis, no, it was backported from 2.6.32 for the Pre-/+ Dec 08 17:25:19 and we ported it to the pre2 Dec 08 17:25:19 or this wa Dec 08 17:25:20 y Dec 08 17:25:26 but it is not from Palm Dec 08 17:25:34 thats NOT the issue Dec 08 17:25:41 morphis: which test pads are you looking at / where? Dec 08 17:25:46 the issue is that 1 bit changes whether it works or not. Dec 08 17:25:52 destinal: below the battery Dec 08 17:26:03 http://amethyst.openembedded.net/~morphis/palmpre_testpads.jpg Dec 08 17:26:11 http://amethyst.openembedded.net/~morphis/palmpre_testpads_paper.jpg Dec 08 17:26:20 the 2.0 kernel source boots on the pre with 3430 config and minor patch to add missing 3630 ifdef's Dec 08 17:26:30 not sure if that was the original question or not Dec 08 17:26:38 but the userland doesn't match that right? Dec 08 17:26:52 not sure what you mean? Dec 08 17:27:12 the modules Dec 08 17:27:37 morphis: ah nice, I guess the must use a bed of nails on that Dec 08 17:28:12 I can't remember if the modules work or not, I did so many different combinations it's fuzzy now Dec 08 17:29:06 morphis: I've heard geist mentioning that if a unit was bad they could give it to others who would tear it down and break everything out, looks like they probably just connect there. Dec 08 17:29:06 I can replace the 2.6.24-3430-joplin with a 2.6.35 and it will BOOT...but the user apps will NOT be able to use it. Dec 08 17:29:08 destinal: jepp it is Dec 08 17:29:24 destinal: GND I already fond Dec 08 17:29:36 ka6sox: you can replace with 2.6.35? Dec 08 17:29:58 ka6sox: but we're replacing 2.6.24 with 2.6.24 Dec 08 17:31:13 are any big changes from 1.4.5 to 2.0.0 kernel patch for 3430? Dec 08 17:32:50 egaudet, there is NO 3430 pre-/+ kernel Dec 08 17:33:00 only a pre2 3630 kernel Dec 08 17:33:06 huh? Dec 08 17:33:31 2.0 has only been released on 1 machine Dec 08 17:33:35 pre2..period Dec 08 17:33:41 not period, the 3430 stuff is all in there Dec 08 17:33:50 ka6sox: you have a running 2.6.35 kernel for the pre? Dec 08 17:33:53 i've built a 3430 kernel with 2.0 kernel patch and luna boots Dec 08 17:34:09 it just requires a small patch to fix some missing 3630 ifdef's Dec 08 17:34:09 egaudet, I agree, you have but officially there isn't one Dec 08 17:34:29 well yeah but I don't think that's a big deal, pre +/- kernel isn't likely to change much Dec 08 17:34:54 morphis it was a wild example of how you *can* build a kernel that will "boot" but not be functional. Dec 08 17:35:00 ah ok Dec 08 17:35:01 the userland and graphics module are what we need for 2.0 on pre -/+ Dec 08 17:35:23 egaudet, my point exactly :D Dec 08 17:35:32 sorry didn't have context of the whole convo lol Dec 08 17:35:53 just because you *can* build a pre2 kernel doesnt' mean the userland stuff will work. Dec 08 17:36:09 you can't build a pre2 kernel and expect it to run on pre Dec 08 17:36:43 they didn't release a pre2 kernel, they released a webos-2.0 kernel, which as of today yes is only running on pre2, but the kernel is fine for pre -/+ and webos-1.4.5 Dec 08 17:38:06 egaudet, ah, good to know...but building a webos2.0 kernel doesn't automagically make a pre-/+ run webos2.0 Dec 08 17:38:22 right, there's a lot more unsolved mysteries there Dec 08 17:39:03 which I mainly believe to be differences between the 2 PVR revisions, but hopefully Palm releases 2.0 for old hardware soon Dec 08 17:43:31 sup all? Dec 08 18:07:36 wait for it... Dec 08 18:07:40 * phil_bw wanders by Dec 08 18:08:41 damn i missed it Dec 08 18:11:54 how goes it? Dec 08 18:13:51 well the pre2 kernel seems to have working smartreflex Dec 08 18:14:00 so thats one change right there Dec 08 18:14:21 the other i can think of off the top of my head is ondemandtcl Dec 08 18:14:46 so there are some differences despite it being the same kernel version etc. Dec 08 18:14:47 jhojho guess they learned from the pixi eh? Dec 08 18:14:52 probably Dec 08 18:15:02 i have not looked closely at pre2 kernel code at all Dec 08 18:15:17 now back to trying to decipher this http://twitpic.com/3e2nn5 Dec 08 18:15:25 it's not call forwarding as i just checked Dec 08 18:15:31 the prefs Dec 08 18:15:36 morphis_: do you have to remove a shield to get to those pads? Dec 08 18:15:42 besides it's a data only sim so no calls Dec 08 18:16:44 ti announces omap4440 Dec 08 18:16:46 http://www.bgr.com/2010/12/08/texas-instrument-announces-dual-core-omap4440-1-5ghz-1080p-stereoscopic-3d/ Dec 08 18:17:09 1080p 3d?!?! Dec 08 18:17:10 damn Dec 08 18:17:16 noice Dec 08 18:23:44 morphis_: on the CDMA version the small shield that peels off has the same top two rows of pins and "CDMA" is silkscreened onto the board above the pins on the side closest to the battery, in that area on the top of yourse without pads Dec 08 18:24:06 jhojho: but it's all wrapped in 3630 ifdef I believe, I don't think there's much kernel change for 3430 config though but didn't do any large comparisions Dec 08 18:24:18 destinal: you have a picture about it? Dec 08 18:24:23 morphis_: sec Dec 08 18:46:27 morphis_: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/File:CDMA-castle-testpad-lg.jpg Dec 08 18:46:54 destinal: ah ok Dec 08 18:46:58 morphis_: I don't seem to have access to the bottom row or it isn't there Dec 08 18:47:04 ok Dec 08 18:47:23 was it just a plastic rectangle glued on there for you too? Dec 08 18:47:34 but I thing the pins should be the same Dec 08 18:47:39 no Dec 08 18:47:51 I don't changed anything on the device Dec 08 18:48:00 the picture shows it as it is Dec 08 18:48:07 morphis_: ah the CDMa has a small cover piece you have to peel away Dec 08 18:48:25 you can kind of see it on the meal part below though it blends in Dec 08 18:48:31 s/meal/metal/ Dec 08 18:48:31 destinal meant: you can kind of see it on the metal part below though it blends in Dec 08 18:48:51 ok, I officially hate this wifi Dec 08 18:49:03 it did not send my last two irc messages and died due to speedtest Dec 08 18:49:23 destinal: ok Dec 08 18:49:38 * halfhalo slaps destinal for taking the picture with an iphone 4 Dec 08 18:49:41 morphis_: I suppose in later revs they figured there was no point hiding it, or you got a remanufactured device? Dec 08 18:49:57 * halfhalo can check on a launchday pre Dec 08 18:50:40 well, when I get home I can. It should still be dissasembled Dec 08 18:50:46 halfhalo: you want me to use my other pre to take a really blurry picture? Dec 08 18:50:48 :P Dec 08 18:51:24 make it a fingerpaint drawing for all I care, just not iphone 4 pics! Dec 08 18:51:43 destinal: I don't think so but I have the GSM version and I have one device from the first it was sold here in germany and one I buyed some weeks ago Dec 08 18:51:48 and both are the same Dec 08 18:52:07 morphis_: interesting Dec 08 18:52:12 * halfhalo has a devdays plus he can check as well Dec 08 18:52:50 morphis_: do you see what I mean about the plastic cover piece? I didn't realize it came off at first Dec 08 18:53:22 I should have made it easier to see Dec 08 18:54:02 it's glued on but peels off easily enough Dec 08 18:54:32 you have to peel back the paper sticker thing first Dec 08 18:55:10 (it makes kind of a "U" shape on this device) Dec 08 18:55:31 morphis_, do u have a cdma device now? Dec 08 18:55:38 PuffTheMagic: no Dec 08 18:56:44 let me know when u want access to one of mine Dec 08 18:57:54 PuffTheMagic: will do Dec 08 18:58:14 destinal: you mean the black sticker below the battery? Dec 08 18:59:59 morphis_: this particular pre had been through the wash, so I peeled the whole sticker off the shield, but yeah on a normal device the black sticker covers the whield all the way up to the battery compartment on left and right sides with a gap for the touchstone back pins and that square sticker over traces to the battery Dec 08 19:00:24 ah ok Dec 08 19:00:28 so it also covers the plastic rectangle that's glued over the test pins Dec 08 19:00:29 any lvm experts know what /dev/sda: Skipping (sysfs) means when vgscan? Dec 08 19:00:40 looks like a "U" Dec 08 19:00:55 its skipping /dev/sda? :p Dec 08 19:01:10 destinal: exactly Dec 08 19:01:16 s/test pins/test pads/ Dec 08 19:01:21 the U is the sim slot Dec 08 19:02:29 oh you mean inside the u shape and directly under the battery? I just have a sticker there covering three wide traces that go to battery Dec 08 19:03:20 on the picture do you see the black rectangle dead center ride under battery? Dec 08 19:03:25 is that where SIM slot is? Dec 08 19:03:40 or oh you mean to the left, the metal U Dec 08 19:04:29 I pried that open and have two antenna wires it seems Dec 08 19:06:02 morphis_: you should take a more clear picture of the entire back of the GSM pre Dec 08 19:07:24 destinal: I now and will do that when I have a better camera Dec 08 19:08:03 destinal: sim slot is on the right side below the testpads right after the battery slot Dec 08 19:08:48 so I have to leave Dec 08 19:08:49 cya Dec 08 19:08:54 ah that would be why not covered maybe Dec 08 19:08:57 morphis_: cool, ttyl Dec 08 19:32:00 am I the only one who thinks it would be cool to salvage a pre with a dead screen, figure out VGA for it and put it in a mini-itx case? Dec 08 19:32:24 still need that usb host mode.. hmm Dec 08 19:33:14 how would you interface with it though? Dec 08 19:34:08 same way as a nook, you'd have use vnc ;) Dec 08 19:34:11 magic! Dec 08 19:34:30 oil: with yet to be written TUIO hidd plugin Dec 08 19:34:41 oil: or just run linux on it Dec 08 19:34:46 ah Dec 08 19:35:25 wouldn't you get a better experience with a mini-itx mobo with a >500mhz proc in your mini-itx case? Dec 08 19:35:35 lol Dec 08 19:36:03 oil: uh, yeah, but just plugging off the shelf stuff together isn't as fun :) Dec 08 19:36:10 true Dec 08 19:36:36 and also this would be an ARM dev board which has its uses Dec 08 19:37:29 I guess you could even keep a SIM card in it and use it for some kind of telephony system :) Dec 08 19:37:35 yeah Dec 08 19:37:48 it does have parts an off-the-shelf mobo wouldnt :) Dec 08 19:56:37 hey everyone I'm tryin to enable my on screen keyboard on my pre 2 but can seem to get to the luna.conf file thru the command line Dec 08 19:57:49 any insight? Dec 08 20:01:39 sineot I'm tryin to enable my on screen keyboard on my pre 2 but can seem to get to the luna.conf file thru the command line Dec 08 20:01:53 any insight? Dec 08 20:02:30 you've got the SDK installed, yeah? Dec 08 20:04:23 2.0 sdk no I don't I'm not a developer Dec 08 20:05:12 do you have Novacom from the SFR 2.0 doctor installed? Dec 08 20:05:24 yup Dec 08 20:05:46 I can install apps thru webos quick install Dec 08 20:08:34 how are you trying to get the file off the phone? Dec 08 20:09:10 I'm trying to edit it I guess Dec 08 20:09:31 so you're running novaterm? Dec 08 20:09:35 then using say, vi? Dec 08 20:10:14 I'd try using novacom get instead Dec 08 20:10:19 so you can edit it on your computer Dec 08 20:10:38 can this be done on windows? Dec 08 20:10:55 cause I can't get linux to pick up my phone Dec 08 20:11:13 yeah Dec 08 20:11:24 but I don't know how, never done it on windows Dec 08 20:12:36 destinal: I would love to salvage a pre into a network media player connected to my TV :P Dec 08 20:14:01 how would you get video out? P: Dec 08 20:15:50 SineOt: you'd have to build a circuit that talks to the omap3's lcd output and renders it usable as DVI-D or something. or other pins on the omap3, beagleboard might be a good example since they have DVI out Dec 08 20:16:13 sounds... overly complex! Dec 08 20:16:42 SineOt: embedded systems hacking aint building a PC by plugging stuff into a motherboard, sonny Dec 08 20:16:44 :P Dec 08 20:17:21 no, but doing all that work to get a device that can't do HD video playback hooked up to a TV doesn't sound like much fun either P: Dec 08 20:17:24 sineot would having the older sdk work ? or do I need 2.0 Dec 08 20:17:39 SineOt: what makes you think it can't do HD video playback? Dec 08 20:18:03 if it's a Pre 2, you either need the 2.0 SDK from the EAP, or you need the Windows/Mac only Novacom from the SFR 2.0 doctor. Dec 08 20:18:33 destinal: uh, probably the fact that it refuses to play anything higher than 640x480 and only supports H264 basic profile? P: Dec 08 20:19:06 nothing a little software can't handle Dec 08 20:19:39 doesn't the Pre do H264 decoding in hardware? Dec 08 20:19:51 destinal: XBMC netbooting onto salvaged pre, wahoo can't wait Dec 08 20:20:00 some day, it's happening I don't care how long it takes me Dec 08 20:20:54 egaudet: people already have XBMC working on beagleboard in ubuntu-ARM or something, so shouldn't be that hard from there Dec 08 20:21:50 getting video out is probably trickies Dec 08 20:21:54 t Dec 08 20:22:18 I don't know how OMAP3 handles video decoding Dec 08 20:22:32 destinal: how tricky are we talking? Dec 08 20:23:17 I'm still really noob to hardware hacking but say simplest would be soldering an hdmi socket to some pins? pads? Dec 08 20:23:37 egaudet: don't know, hoping to play with it if I ever get a donated device to open up. I can't bring myself to do it to a fully functional device Dec 08 20:25:17 make a precentral post or something for salvaging/donating devices, I'm sure there are at least a few people with devices that they eventually just throw out or give away Dec 08 20:30:29 morning chuqui Dec 08 20:31:31 afternoon swisstomcat Dec 08 20:31:40 hey ka6sox Dec 08 20:31:57 swiss you like php programming? Dec 08 20:32:21 hey! Dec 08 20:36:26 ka6sox: i wouldn't say like .. but i know php :) Dec 08 20:39:36 Hi, when installing an ipkg-file from a ssh shell, how do I get the icon displayed in the launcher ? Dec 08 20:39:37 lol Dec 08 20:40:27 such a stupid question :( ? Dec 08 20:41:04 hey sineot Dec 08 20:41:30 I got novacom working on windows...what was that command you reccommeded ? Dec 08 20:42:34 matsimoto: no, i was laughing at swisstomcat Dec 08 20:42:45 matsimoto: rebooting should do it Dec 08 20:45:11 oil maybe you know...I'm trying to get the onscreen keyboard working on my pre 2 Dec 08 20:45:30 I have novacom running I am cd to the correct folder Dec 08 20:45:40 I just dont know what to do next Dec 08 20:45:46 oil: OK, but are there easier methods ? I would like to upload the files I build with my netbeans module via scp and then run the installer via ssh over wifi. This would be cool during development. Dec 08 20:46:30 oil: But permanently rebooting would slow things down. Dec 08 20:47:19 Clipper87: ive never edited a file over novacom Dec 08 20:47:31 idk if vi even works over it Dec 08 20:47:39 matsimoto: how did you install it via shell? Dec 08 20:48:09 egaudet: ipkg -i .ipkg Dec 08 20:48:21 well I would reverse that if I were you Dec 08 20:48:42 installing to root like that is the cause of eternal update symptoms Dec 08 20:49:10 what instructions did you follow for that command line? Dec 08 20:49:14 egaudet: how do you mean reverse ?? Dec 08 20:49:28 ipkg remove it Dec 08 20:49:53 what instructions did you follow? Dec 08 20:50:06 I have already removed it and installed is with the palm installer. Dec 08 20:50:40 egaudet: instructions? I just took a look at the ipkg usage Dec 08 20:51:06 I am fairly new to this stuff. Dec 08 20:51:56 matsimoto: yeah there are two ipkg libraries on a webos device. the base one which you installed into which is only for the operating system itself, and another intended for third party applications Dec 08 20:53:01 the proper one for applications is ipkg -o /media/cryptofs/apps install whatever.ipk Dec 08 20:53:01 destinal: where do I find the right one or better are there instruction available on how to do it right ? Dec 08 20:53:10 but easier to palm-install from the host PC usually Dec 08 20:53:48 destinal: is it possible to the palm-install over wifi ? Dec 08 20:53:58 and some advanced packages don't work with ipkg -o because it's an "offline" mode and doesn't run post install scripts or pre remove Dec 08 20:54:32 which your average webos app doesn't have, but some, especially advanced homebrew stuff, does Dec 08 20:55:26 OK, I understand, my intention is to add more comfort to my PalmPre module I built for netbeans IDE. It is simple but it works Dec 08 20:55:29 matsimoto: theoretically possible over novacom's tcp modes I suppose but I don't know anyone who does it (or tcp novacom except to the emulator really) Dec 08 20:55:41 but the USB Plug sucks Dec 08 20:55:53 matsimoto: very true Dec 08 20:56:43 matsimoto: you can put the app on URL the browser can load and you have preware installed you could do it that way Dec 08 20:57:16 preware can install apps and packages from web URL's or email Dec 08 20:57:34 destinal:hmm, can I use file URLs like file://blabla ? Dec 08 20:58:53 matsimoto: the browser doesn't want to open file: urls, but maybe with a patch Dec 08 20:58:54 destinal: maybe I can tunnel novacom over my ssh connection ... Dec 08 20:59:45 matsimoto: it should be possible, just load up the emulator and figure out how that TCP connection works. I have no idea why nobody here seems to have researched doing much with novacom over tcp Dec 08 21:00:42 I don't know if the novacom daemon on the pre supports tcp modes either.. hmm.. Dec 08 21:00:51 destinal: but isnt the novacomd only a bridge between tcp and USB ? Dec 08 21:01:09 matsimoto: that's true. *that* port Dec 08 21:01:11 ok Dec 08 21:01:52 that would mean that I need a USBoverTCP magic driver ... Dec 08 21:01:55 matsimoto: novacomd can also talk to a novacom device over tcp Dec 08 21:02:02 ah OK Dec 08 21:02:03 rather than usb Dec 08 21:02:42 perfect I will try this. do you have a hint on docs for the tcp mode ? Dec 08 21:03:15 matsimoto: sadly I really don't think there are docs, I would try tcpdump on the SDK virtual machine Dec 08 21:03:42 and then try palm-install to the emulator Dec 08 21:03:56 OK, I prefer wireshark, ut it should do the job Dec 08 21:03:59 matsimoto: and write up on the wiki whatever you find Dec 08 21:04:01 :) Dec 08 21:04:38 matsimoto: yeah i guess you could sniff the host side of the virtual network interface, I assume that would work in wireshark? Dec 08 21:05:09 that should work. Never tried this with virtualbox Dec 08 21:05:38 it's an x86 virtual machine with a special build of webos running on it Dec 08 21:05:58 the emulator image I mean Dec 08 21:06:15 I think I can intercept it on the host side. Dec 08 21:06:50 it's weird that we've never researched this before Dec 08 21:07:01 in like 1.5 years Dec 08 21:07:32 I stumbled over the openssh server and it was so easy to make it work Dec 08 21:07:48 matsimoto: installed through preware? Dec 08 21:08:02 and a future without the USB plug looks promising Dec 08 21:08:07 yes Dec 08 21:23:37 in preware you can use file:// to install an ipk Dec 08 21:24:19 yupyup Dec 08 21:24:23 preware does have file browser too but only for /media/internal Dec 08 21:24:32 manual file:// paths work for ipk's located outside of /media/internal Dec 08 21:24:35 weeeellll Dec 08 21:24:47 * halfhalo knows theres a s3cr3t option for file browser Dec 08 22:07:45 egaudet: ah, I didn't know that about opening file:// url's in preware. coolo Dec 08 22:10:40 yeah, it does that, and my sexy file picker :) Dec 08 22:10:51 * halfhalo lulz Dec 08 22:11:13 * halfhalo is totally going to redo wirc's alias stuff after he finishes with his finals Dec 08 22:11:47 * oil doesn't hold breath xD Dec 08 22:11:54 lol Dec 08 22:12:08 im taking code I made for node regex stuff and applying it there Dec 08 22:13:26 afaik the alias stuff works pretty good Dec 08 22:13:36 yeah Dec 08 22:13:48 the way Imma gonna do it is sorta the same, but cleaner Dec 08 22:14:16 lol Dec 08 22:15:10 instead of doing a crazy for loop with a crapload of ifs its just going to be a replace type thing Dec 08 22:15:47 and it will also allow for more complex stuff to be built on the fly Dec 08 22:18:21 it will end up taking an input string like "/blah :com :stuffs", build a regex strings can be used to match against, and then when run on those strings returns an obj with the values of com and stuffs which can be automagically replaced as well Dec 08 22:18:54 make sure its backwards compatible with previous aliases Dec 08 22:18:58 same basic thing, but with a wrapper structure to make it cleaner Dec 08 22:19:09 or it converts aliases to the new format Dec 08 22:19:42 it should convert just fine, since its not all that different of a format in the end Dec 08 22:24:23 heh, I actually originally made the code for an irc node thing where I would have an array of this function and a callback, and ever time a message came in I would loop over all the regex's and if they matched ran the callback Dec 08 22:25:30 instead of having crazy regex everywhere in my code I would just have "hi :person" instead Dec 08 22:29:24 * halfhalo is that lazy Dec 08 22:33:12 memboot is the best thing Dec 08 22:35:20 omap3_loader is better Dec 08 22:36:12 whyso? Dec 08 22:36:41 memboot requires an operational bootloader :) Dec 08 22:37:02 hah Dec 08 22:37:23 * SineOt was just loading the stock kernel back on, since warthog was hanging really badly 10 seconds after Luna start :p Dec 08 22:38:24 which, if anyone can explain how to get logs etc, I'll be happy to subject myself too some mroe to help figure out why it hangs P: Dec 08 22:40:05 you need to pull the battery momentarily while it's still plugged into USB for power, and vol up recovery mode immediately Dec 08 22:40:10 then you can novacom get file://klog Dec 08 22:40:18 or talk to bootie directly Dec 08 22:40:33 okay Dec 08 22:43:24 oooo, that's new Dec 08 22:44:40 Novacom reports "klog empty" so I'm assuming it wiped Dec 08 22:47:00 how long did you leave the battery out? Dec 08 22:47:09 it needs to be less than quarter of a second Dec 08 22:48:11 probably a little longer than that Dec 08 22:48:13 volatile memory is... Dec 08 22:48:27 but now, even pulling the battery, I can't get it to actually... Shut off Dec 08 22:49:45 it seems perfectly content to just keep running off USB power Dec 08 22:50:31 do what I said Dec 08 22:50:44 oh, rwhitby, question! in regards to preware, what exactly do you mean by "lazy-loading"? Dec 08 22:51:00 loading only what is required to display what the user can see Dec 08 22:51:27 Momentarily pull the battery while still on USB, and volume up recovery immediately: that's what I did Dec 08 22:51:47 novacom can't find the device, and it's still sitting at the launcher page it hung on with the battery pulled Dec 08 22:52:10 pulled/reinsererted a few times with volume up, novacom still can't find it Dec 08 22:53:28 so, say, instead of download existing feeds which contain everything, it would talk to the server and say "give me all packages that work with x,y and z" where x/y/z could be webos versions or arch? Dec 08 22:55:25 halfhalo: and not even all of the data for those packages Dec 08 23:03:39 rwhitby: pull battery while connected to USB, correct? Dec 08 23:04:34 ok, the querying is ridiculously easy to do, with pages like /feed/:webos/:arch/:etc(.html or ,json or .xml, doesn't matter to rails) which would (and should) be accessed by default/first/etc since they will be the fastest, and then also have a page like /package/find where it uses any POST data to narrow its results for more specific searching at the expense of speed (since the query most likely will not be cached by anything, and most l Dec 08 23:04:35 will involve a field not being indexed) Dec 08 23:05:20 As for the not sending all the data thing, thats easy to do, but I don't know how much of an increase in load it will result in Dec 08 23:07:15 theoretically, I can also make it do revisions as well Dec 08 23:09:08 so you give the server a revision number and it responds with all the changes between that revision and the current one Dec 08 23:09:56 (needs to include package removals) Dec 08 23:10:42 rwhitby: wow you can get the device to restart but retain klog by pulling battery? I didn't know that. I would use the kernel reset myself, hold down power button and slide mute switch on, off, three times and keep holding power button Dec 08 23:12:54 oil: yeah, package removal is pretty much the only thing not being tracked right now since I haven't come up with a clean way of doing it yet Dec 08 23:13:36 couldn't the server cache the revision responses? Dec 08 23:14:19 destinal: if power wiggle works, it's a better option. with overclocking kernel crashes, it rarely works Dec 08 23:14:22 is it reading the packages file to build its database right now? Dec 08 23:14:49 rwhitby: oh and re the omap3 usb loader, it's awesome, but you still need something to load IT that you can use to load the kernel, yeah? (so usb load bootie and boot mem a kernel anyway) Dec 08 23:15:04 destinal: yeah Dec 08 23:15:27 we need to get a xloader+uboot combo working so we can do more interesting boot things Dec 08 23:15:51 * rwhitby waits for reactions to http://twitter.com/webosinternals/status/12645425672622080 Dec 08 23:20:32 oil: its made up of two distinct parts which I lovingly call feedEater and feedViewer. feedEater resides on the server with the feeds and sets up watchers on all the Packages files its pointed at, and everytime one of them is modified reads it in, parses it into a bunch of objects, compares each object to a list of all perviously found objects, and if its unique sends it to mongo Dec 08 23:21:28 well, doesn't he make his own point? The project was violating IP, and irrespective of your roll, XDA would have eventually shut it down instead of allowing it to proceed. Of course, the information was lost only if a) there was anything but the fake in the first place and b) no one was smart enough to cache the thread. Dec 08 23:21:33 feedViewer is just a stripped down rails app that talks to the same DB Dec 08 23:21:48 That's a tough debate to take a side on Dec 08 23:22:13 XDA normally, to my knowledge, doesn't really care about violating IP too much, given the number of ports of stuff like Sense UI to non-HTC devices, etc Dec 08 23:22:17 "nerd projects" as he put it are one thing. It's a completely different thing to do it without any regard to HP/Palm's oppinion on the matter Dec 08 23:22:40 Did HP or Palm ever weigh in on the matter? Dec 08 23:23:12 it is. And of course, some companies (apple) make things so impossible that there is no CHOICE but to simply ignore their IP. But if the company is reasonably decent, which HP and palm are more-than, then you would be STUPID to convince them to take actions to lock their doors. Dec 08 23:23:45 No AStice they didn't. But again, remember how they treat US. The difference is clear. Silence on one side, massive open support on the other. Dec 08 23:25:41 True - but I look at in a similar light to the work you guys will inevitably work on when Palm stops supporting webOS on older hardware Dec 08 23:25:52 It's highly dependent on the intentions of the developers Dec 08 23:26:10 AStice: have you read my last post in that thread? Dec 08 23:26:41 Don't have a link to the thread - looking for it now Dec 08 23:29:22 AStice no, actually, -we- guys have a policy about that. We use the files that Palm has openly shared on the internet, and mod them, even as we do with patches etc etc and meta doctor and so forth. Dec 08 23:29:38 we do not EVER host modified versions of Palm or HP ip. Dec 08 23:32:14 AStice: looks like the thread has been removed Dec 08 23:32:27 Looks like it Dec 08 23:33:33 Like I said - that's a really tough debate to weigh in on, tough to draw a line there - if it truly is just a project to see if they could do it, that one thing - when you start talking about distribution you bring a whole other set of ethical principles into play Dec 08 23:33:37 That's a shame - they should have just removed the link to the illegal redistribution. Dec 08 23:34:12 AStice: correct. it is sandix's decision to illegally redistribute which tipped the balance. Dec 08 23:34:44 if they instead did a tool which downloaded from palm, modified, and flashed, then there is no copyright violation Dec 08 23:34:55 I'm going to say that redistributing their work (outside of themselves, of course) would lean on the side of ethically wrong Dec 08 23:35:18 not just ethically wrong, it's a clear and blatant copyright law violation. Dec 08 23:35:49 True, but there's a huge difference between legality and ethics, I'm only talking about ethics Dec 08 23:36:09 sure, if your ethics allow breaking the law just for your convenience Dec 08 23:36:26 the very law upon which all open source development is based Dec 08 23:37:35 one cannot be in favour of gpl-violations.org suing Cisco, and then support redistribution of webOS, just because they want webOS on their Hero Dec 08 23:37:47 Well, obviously someone could break the law and claim that they did because they didn't see an ethical problem with it, but that's a bit extreme. In this case ethics and copyright laws align pretty closely, but there is a bit of a difference there. Technically doing the development itself is against copyright. Dec 08 23:38:34 No, doing the development is not against copyright. If someone gives you a book, you are free to mangle it how you choose. Dec 08 23:39:09 (at least you are in juridictions which allow reverse engineering and end-user modifications) Dec 08 23:40:39 True - but intellectual property is a bit different then a physical object. That's where it gets hairy. Most copyrights require express permission to modify their intellectual property. Usually it's fine if you don't redistribute, because then it can be correlated to a physical object Dec 08 23:41:41 Be back in a moment Dec 08 23:43:17 Yes, redistribution is the tipping point. Dec 08 23:44:01 True - and development with the intent to redistribute is just as unethical Dec 08 23:44:12 AStice: Most copyrights refer to redistribution on modified content, not the act of modifying it Dec 08 23:44:43 Mainly because copyright law cannot limit the act of modifying it yourself in most jurisdictions. Dec 08 23:45:28 which is why you use the metadoc to modify the doctor, instead of just downloading a modified doctor from our servers Dec 08 23:45:39 AStice: this whole issue is why WebOS Internals created the MetaDoctor - we do not redistribute modified webOS images, we distribute a tool that an end-user can use to modify their own copy (which they have obtained legally) Dec 08 23:46:29 It's a clear and distinct difference in approach, which does not force the vendor to defend their copyright rights. Dec 08 23:46:40 Yes - which is ethical Dec 08 23:51:35 Copyright's are there to provide a legal basis for protecting the owner's right to benefit from their intellectual property. Your approach maintains ethics by stepping around the limitations of copyrights. Your also lucky that Palm encourages your work, because regardless of copyright law, if they didn't want you modifying their stuff, even the meta doctor would no longer be ethical (in my opinion, that's a hard point to ar Dec 08 23:53:50 AStice: actually copyrights are there to enrich the public domain (at least that's what the US constitution says) Dec 08 23:54:06 AStice: the ethics of MetaDoctor do not depend upon what Palm wants. Dec 08 23:55:21 Whilst Palm seeing the benefits of ethical third-part development is good, it is not essential to that development continuing, as the development is based on the law, not on the good graces of a corporation. Dec 08 23:56:08 Ethics are still very much in the realm of debate, in my opinion the ethics of the MetaDoctor do depend on what Palm wants, because your tool is not equivalent to someone modifying their own device - but it is also not nearly as unethical as flat out distributing modified property Dec 08 23:56:36 AStice: if the tool was a screwdriver, and the person was modifying a car, the same ethics apply. Dec 08 23:57:28 AStice: providing someone a tool to alter their own licensed copyrighted work (like a 3rd party patch for windows) is against copyright law, in your assertion? Dec 08 23:57:42 Not at all Dec 08 23:57:50 destinal: no, he is asserting morals, not legality. Dec 08 23:57:51 Not talking about copyright law, just ethics Dec 08 23:58:22 ah. well yeah ethically absolutely, I should have the right to open the hood of my car :) Dec 08 23:58:25 AStice: have you seen the talk by saurik on this subject? Dec 08 23:58:56 AStice: http://www.iphonedownloadblog.com/2010/11/09/sauriks-ted-talk-even-software-should-have-screws/ Dec 08 23:58:56 No, but I'd be interested. Looking for it now Dec 08 23:59:02 That makes it easier Dec 09 00:00:11 The US copyright office realizes it's important too and made the exemption for jailbreaking and phone unlocking Dec 09 00:01:07 idea being it's important to modify the things you buy to make them work in unintended ways Dec 09 00:04:31 rwhitby: Using a tool that downloaded webOS from HP and installed it on a HTC device could still be a violation of the copyright. I have not read the license attached to the webOS Doctor, but it could (and even probably does) restrict its use to Palm / HP devices. Dec 09 00:04:43 ooh what did i miss Dec 09 00:04:55 PuffTheMagic: HTC hero inspired debate Dec 09 00:05:19 chandler, yes thats what is holding us back from putting webos on the nook ;) Dec 09 00:05:41 chandler: different countries have different laws regarding EULA's Dec 09 00:05:56 and at any rate the EULA would be the responsibility of the user, not a tool. Dec 09 00:06:24 chandler: indeed, the EULA does have that clause. Dec 09 00:07:07 chandler: however, the violation is not by the tool, it is by the user who runs the tool on a device for which the software is not licensed. Dec 09 00:07:14 Right, that's why I said "using a tool". Dec 09 00:07:20 chandler: agreed Dec 09 00:07:52 Right now HP doesn't protect downloads of webOS, but if this gets bad enough I'd expect them to require an account to get at, at which point they could have the users accept an agreement that states that the Doctor is for use on HP/Palm hardware only. Dec 09 00:08:25 chandler: the current webOS Doctor already has such a clause in the end-user click-through EULA. Dec 09 00:08:48 Interestingly, you don't need to click the EULA to unpack a .jar file. Dec 09 00:08:51 Right, but see destinal's point about different laws regarding click-through licenses in different jurisdictions. Dec 09 00:09:06 but what if you never actually run the doctor Dec 09 00:09:11 how would one see this EULA Dec 09 00:09:30 chandler: that is also why the MetaDoctor does not automatically download the webOS Doctor file - it is up to the user to legally source that input file. Dec 09 00:11:39 And ultimately, this is an ETHICAL debate, not a legal one. Legal decisions are settled in courts. Ethical discussions are settled inside individuals. However, the webOS Internals team has reached an ethical understanding where we FEEL we can claim to be wearing white hats. It's a very very very fine line. But we feel we're on one side of it. Dec 09 00:12:14 I'd wager that Palm/HP feels you're on the right side too. Dec 09 00:12:41 chandler: based on discussions with all levels in that organisation, we know that we are :) Dec 09 00:12:47 And that's really all that matters, isn't it? Dec 09 00:13:16 chandler: no, because if we were doing something illegal, but Palm was turning a blind eye to it, then that could change at a moment's notice. Dec 09 00:13:44 It could anyway if they changed their policy. Dec 09 00:13:53 Our activities need to be based on the law first, and still be able to be performed even if Palm were to change their sensible approach to third-party modifications. Dec 09 00:14:06 If that was not the case, then we become a Palm patsy. Dec 09 00:15:23 (and note that a large corporation often does not have one single "view" on something, so the reaction can easily be different depending on who you talk to) Dec 09 00:15:50 Ok - just finished the video. Before I give my opinion I want to say that the xda-developers were 100% unethical, and you guys are (currently) 100% ethical, before I turn into the bad guy here Dec 09 00:15:51 chandler: simplest thing is that while making available copyrighted bits without license is against copyright, anyone can and should be able to write a tool to patch something Dec 09 00:16:41 whether it be a book, a movie, or software makes no difference IMO Dec 09 00:16:50 ethically it's wrong that one is not allowed to use legally obtained software on any hadware they choose Dec 09 00:16:51 AStice: you're not the bad guy, you're highlighting the key points of our fundamental principles Dec 09 00:17:05 ethically it's wrong to license software for a specific hardware ;) Dec 09 00:17:11 rwhitby: Sure, from the developer perspective your point is well taken. As a user, if HP/Palm changed their policy the legality wouldn't be my first concern; I'd still be looking for a new phone platform anyway. (Not that there are many better options.) Dec 09 00:17:41 chandler: the HP/Palm policy is a significant motivating factor for the developers too. Dec 09 00:18:59 I have problems with the car/phone metaphor, because taking your car to a mechanic, or modifying it yourself is not nearly the same thing as running a tool to do so. You do have tools to modify a car, screw drivers, wrenches, etc. However, those tools would more closely correlate to an IDE in the software world. Dec 09 00:19:20 If I were to bring my phone to you guys, have you write the code specifically for my phone without any remaining trace of the modified code except what was installed on my phone, then get my phone back, it would be the same as a car. Dec 09 00:20:58 Legally a tool is alright because it does nothing but modify my own device. However, ethically, it is more dependent (note: not entirely) on how the owner of the intellectual property that's being modified feels, strictly because of the EASE of the modification. If it takes almost no more effort to run a tool then to download a pre-modified distro, then it's ethically the same, in my opinion Dec 09 00:22:49 The iOS jailbreaking group are ethical, but not as ethical as you guys are, because of Apple's policy on the subject, once again, in my opinion. Dec 09 00:23:15 They key point in your position is whether the feelings of the "owner" of the intellectual property have any weight outside of the laws they use to protect that property. Dec 09 00:23:18 so if Palm changed their tune tomorrow we'd all of a sudden be less ethical? Dec 09 00:23:39 Yes to both points, in my opinion Dec 09 00:23:42 Our ethics do not depend on the feelings of a corporation. Dec 09 00:24:09 I think when you're doing stuff like downgrading basebands and finding buffer exploits in iBoot to jailbreak, it's hard to not be seen as somehow "less ethical" Dec 09 00:24:10 Your ethical view, perhaps, but what is ethical in principal has to be universal. Not specific to a single person. Dec 09 00:24:45 AStice: agreed, and the universality of that ethical position cannot depend upon one party changing their feelings. Dec 09 00:25:45 Does it suddenly become ethical to enslave children just because the ruler of the country in which it is happening thinks it's ok now? Dec 09 00:25:50 heh my fortune cookie I just opened "What's vice today may be virtue tomorrow" Dec 09 00:25:56 Sure it can - because ethics are based on the amount of wrong to an individual, in this case an organization. If an individual has no problem with their property being modified, then they receive no wrong by it being done. If they do, then they are being wronged by the disregard of their opinion Dec 09 00:26:10 AStice: see my previous comment Dec 09 00:26:11 egaudet: how oddly coincidental Dec 09 00:26:43 Now, that's a tad extreme, though. The minimal increase in harm to the ruler cannot be considered to out weight the massive increase in wrong to the children Dec 09 00:26:53 fortune cookie makers really CAN see the future :P Dec 09 00:27:34 AStice, I feel I am being wronged when the person next to me breathes my oxygen, thus it is ethically wrong for them to breathe Dec 09 00:28:11 egaudet: that would depend on the size of the sealed container in which you are both held. Dec 09 00:28:14 I will never agree that modifying software you legally obtained is unethical Dec 09 00:28:15 Ethically, I would have no problem with it if a person A:Purchased a Palm phone that runs webOS B:stopped running webOS on that phone as they ran it on another device...legally I'm sure that's not so clear Dec 09 00:28:17 egaudet: But it's not about if you feel you've been wronged, only if you actually are wronged. It doesn't wrong you for that person to be breathing unless there is somehow a lack of oxygen Dec 09 00:28:40 Loudergood, why? Dec 09 00:28:44 No, modifying the software is not unethical. Dec 09 00:28:54 I wouldn't argue that Dec 09 00:29:11 AStice, ok so the next step is public knowledge Dec 09 00:29:24 AStice nice attempt, but the concept of the universality of ethics is problematic. Different social systems inevitably result in different decisions about "ethical" -- see for example, the suicide rates in Japan vs the suicide rates in the rest of the world. Is suicide ethical? etc etc. We can come up with a zillion examples, but the point is that ethics is NOT an absolute,and Dec 09 00:29:24 you can't construct an ethical framework that I am bound to accept. The best we can do is attempt to find an ethical framework that a group of us can work within. Dec 09 00:29:30 I will also never feel that sharing my findings (obtained legally) is unethical Dec 09 00:29:34 Currently, we have such a framework, and can live with it. Dec 09 00:29:40 AStice: my understanding of your position is that the ethics of distributing a legal tool to modify a phone OS depends on the feelings of the company that sells that OS, irrespective of the legality. Dec 09 00:30:17 In that case it's similar to OSX86 where the user goes out and actually purchases MacOSX Dec 09 00:30:18 AStice: is that a correct statement of your position? Dec 09 00:30:33 In any event, it's been a fun discussion, and I ---must--- go get my wife dinner now, and my ethics system says that this overrides my desire to stay and chat. Dec 09 00:30:35 Rick_Work: Yes, I believe that there is an absolute ethics, regardless of the fact that the human race will never find it Dec 09 00:30:50 rwhitby: That is essentially my position, yes. Dec 09 00:31:13 ok that's a weird glitch Dec 09 00:31:32 AStice I'm a theist, and belive that too, but I can't implement it as a WORKING ethical framework, so.... here I am, a core member of THIS group of pirates and bastards. :-) Happy crew that we are. Dec 09 00:31:48 AStice: when applying your statement to human rights, I would agree. when applying it to a mobile operating system, I dont. Dec 09 00:32:23 And if I knew enough to provide any contribution, I would love to be part of this group too. I think the work done here is awesome Dec 09 00:32:38 (what I mean is that sometimes ethics can mean more than laws, e.g. if a ruler makes child enslavement legal in their country) Dec 09 00:32:59 (but not in the case of mobile operating system modifications) Dec 09 00:33:24 rwhitby: I think that a mobile operating system is correlated with human rights. Maybe not to the same degree. But enough to where I feel I have a valid reason for my opinion, as well as you having valid reasons for yours Dec 09 00:33:53 I would personally not provide such a tool against the companies wishes, but I wouldn't fault you for providing it Dec 09 00:34:04 AStice: agreed, that is where the personal choice of ethics comes into play, where there is no absolute boundary line between ethical and unethical Dec 09 00:34:29 AStice: it's likely that I wouldn't either. but I would defend the right for someone else to do so. Dec 09 00:34:49 I would Dec 09 00:34:57 see no problem with such a tool Dec 09 00:35:14 (I'm too old to play cat and mouse with corporations that will try and close down the operation of the tool) Dec 09 00:35:54 AStice: It depends really on how much you feel a creator has the right to decide precisely how their work is used as opposed to just copied also. Like, can I sell you a word processor and say that you can never use it to write a competitive bid for a job that I'm also bidding for? copyright really should be to control the right to copy IMO Dec 09 00:36:00 I have no problem with someone else doing so either. Whether I would defend another person doing so is very dependent on the situation. I'd defend you guys, I won't defend the iOS jailbreakers. Dec 09 00:36:32 Well, not all of them, at least Dec 09 00:36:52 GPL for instance which rwhitby mentioned is all about how copies can be distributed and what they must contain or be provided when distributed Dec 09 00:36:54 AStice: yes, there are a variety of legal positions in that development community Dec 09 00:36:59 AStice, jailbreaking is legal Dec 09 00:38:53 AStice: giving someone something and saying now you can only USE it this way is a whole different thing and IMO unethical in and of itself Dec 09 00:39:05 destinal: I don't think the creator can dictate how the software is used. Dec 09 00:39:08 The bottom line ethically is copying destinal said. Improving/modifying/hacking legally obtained software and distributing automated methods for doing so I think is fine because it all depends on each user of the tool to obtain legally a copy of the software Dec 09 00:39:36 I think it's more so about the creators right to not have their software undermined. For example, a mechanic has to spend a number of hours on each car he modifies. This may decrease as the mechanic gets more practice, but it's not going to become instantaneous Dec 09 00:39:52 it's when you infringe upon the companies monetary gain that is a problem Dec 09 00:39:52 AStice: I don't believe that right exists. Dec 09 00:40:38 AStice, up until there are robots performing oil changes Dec 09 00:40:41 Software is a different story. A tool may take a bit longer to write then performing the modification once, but the average time per modification can easily approach instantaneous. That's where the problem comes from, in my opinion Dec 09 00:40:51 and then will you claim that outside company is unethical because they sell robots to do oil changes? Dec 09 00:41:17 * oil was like, oh, im being talked about... ;( Dec 09 00:41:19 AStice, I disagree completely. It's all about legally copying/obtaining said software Dec 09 00:41:22 No - but that's because I think that robot's are people too ;) Dec 09 00:41:24 lol oil Dec 09 00:41:24 AStice: copyright is not about an attempt to guarantee a creator gets money. it's about giving creators an incentive (by sole ability to distribute) that encourages them to make creative works so they pass into the public domain Dec 09 00:41:34 in the US anyway public domain was key to the whole idea Dec 09 00:41:39 egaudet: once's position will probaby depend upon whether you are a mechanic with access to robots or not Dec 09 00:42:04 destinal: until Mickey Mouse came along Dec 09 00:42:37 Speaking exclusively about copyright here - I'm going to say yes, it's not going to prevent these kinds of tools. I'm still speaking ethically. I don't think that copyright laws should attempt to cover ethics as well Dec 09 00:42:46 now people have this idea they have a right to get paid which is ridiculous. the mechanic has no right to get paid either unless they agree between themselves and the customer they're doing the work for Dec 09 00:43:26 AStice, yes ethically I feel that you are of opposite opinion on what ethics are. It is UNETHICAL for me to purchase something from you and be demanded that no one else can help me modify it Dec 09 00:43:26 it's really the difference between usage and redistribution Dec 09 00:43:59 right, someone selling you a printer that self-destructs when opened would be unethical IMO Dec 09 00:44:06 I think ethically, the only thing that matters is that the intention of copyright -law- is upheld (because copyright's intentions are ethically sound) Dec 09 00:44:11 or that you can't legally make your own ink cartridge for Dec 09 00:44:17 would be unethical Dec 09 00:44:23 I didn't say no one else could help you modify it, nor that someone else couldn't do all the work for you. That's certainly not right. Dec 09 00:44:44 AStice, and there is very little difference from me typing in "make" and YOU downloading and typing in "make" Dec 09 00:44:54 ethically or otherwise Dec 09 00:45:08 AStice: or to make it legally impossible to buy 3rd party ink carts for for that matter or tools that help me modify my own printer to work with other ink, all that would be unethical. Dec 09 00:45:30 AStice: BTW, I must state that you're one of the most reasoned speakers we've had this discussion with :) Dec 09 00:45:49 if the world followed your ethical opinion on the matter AStice there would be 0 technological growth Dec 09 00:46:14 think about how many companies sell modifications in the world Dec 09 00:47:40 stickers are tools that modify the look of something with little to no effort Dec 09 00:47:53 I'm not happy with metaphors between physical objects and intellectual property. I can see where it come's from, but it just doesn't work right with me. Dec 09 00:49:02 forget metaphors then, 1000 people paid me money for software I wrote. What then gives me the ethical "right" to say they shouldn't be allowed to collaborate and or distribute tools to modify that software. Dec 09 00:49:03 If a person legally aquired software, lets say Windows, threw that software away and downloaded a pre-modified version of that software, it would be ethical. But you have no way of ensuring your distribution will follow that model, so distributing the modified software is not ethical. Dec 09 00:49:24 AStice, disagreed Dec 09 00:49:48 once you obtain a "license", ethically you should be allowed to obtain that software by any means available Dec 09 00:49:53 If would only be ethical if the person no longer had access to the original unmodified, legal copy Dec 09 00:50:12 how do you figure Dec 09 00:50:25 A single license for Windows is a single license for Windows, modified or otherwise Dec 09 00:50:38 Get as many discs as you want, I'm talking about the license Dec 09 00:51:12 as am I Dec 09 00:51:22 AStice: but again, microsoft giving you windows and you using someone elses instructions to modify it are not at all the same as downloading a premodified copy because others have no right to distribute it Dec 09 00:51:28 once I buy a windows license I should be allowed to get Windows software however I want, be it torrented or from MS download channels Dec 09 00:51:48 Exactly, in this case the distribution is unethical, not the acquisition Dec 09 00:52:12 right and it's only unethical because you cannot possibly control WHO acquires it Dec 09 00:52:37 it's not unethical simply because you are distributing it. As a matter of fact if you could guarantee that only license holders could get your distribution, that would be 100% ethical Dec 09 00:52:38 egaudet: I agree, but only for your one licensed computer. If someone had a modified copy that didn't require a license, I would be ethical in using it as long as I only used it on my one already licensed computer Dec 09 00:52:41 not legal, but 100% ethical Dec 09 00:53:00 egaudet: 100% agreed Dec 09 00:53:04 AStice: I strongly object to the term intellectual property by the way, it creates another bad analogy Dec 09 00:53:09 AStice, so that is 100% the same as the tool you object to Dec 09 00:53:22 let's say copyrighted work or something else more accurate Dec 09 00:53:45 distributing a tool that modifies copyrighted software is 100% ethical because only owners of that software can find any use in it Dec 09 00:54:13 unless you are allowing others to obtain the software without license then you cross no ethical boundaries Dec 09 00:54:51 Not quite. You guys can't verify that I have legal access to the software your tool is modifying for me. I may not get it from you, but I still didn't have to get it from palm Dec 09 00:55:22 AStice, so what? You already crossed the ethical boundary and obtained illegal software, that is what is damaging to the company not the ability to modify it afterwards Dec 09 00:55:22 AStice: neither can your PC when you install windows on it Dec 09 00:55:28 It's a tough line to draw. I see no problem with what you guys are doing with the MetaDoctor. I can however see where it could become a problem Dec 09 00:55:37 again it's like saying that selling car parts is unethical because someone might steal a car and use your parts Dec 09 00:55:54 AStice, I don't think it's as tough as you are making it out to be Dec 09 00:56:03 (in this situation) Dec 09 00:57:10 I'm never satisfied with situational conclusions or partial conclusions. I don't have a problem with this specific situation, only the fact that the ethics used in this situation are not correct for similar situations Dec 09 00:57:27 But I'm stubborn Dec 09 00:57:32 :) Dec 09 00:57:52 AStice, then you are coming to a situational conclusion above Dec 09 00:58:14 Where at? Dec 09 00:58:14 your have no problem with us acting in a way that you feel is unethical Dec 09 00:58:34 I don't feel you guys are being unethical Dec 09 00:58:47 why not? Dec 09 00:58:50 we are modifying software Dec 09 00:58:56 and distributing tools to do that Dec 09 00:59:08 You're not harming Palm by doing so Dec 09 00:59:19 neither are any jailbreakers Dec 09 01:00:57 I disagree. I would argue that your work is competing with Palm's platform, and that if Palm didn't want that competition from you modifying their platform, the only ethical routes would be to modify each device individually - no tools to automate it, develop your own platform, or stop Dec 09 01:01:14 also "harming Palm" is not exactly a reason to do or not do something, i.e. Apple, MS, RIM "harm Palm" Dec 09 01:01:43 ^ Thus the developing your own platform. It's unethical to use their work as a spring board to compete with them Dec 09 01:01:45 how exactly is our work competing with Palm's platform? Dec 09 01:01:57 I'm curious as to how their work is competing with... ^^^ what he said Dec 09 01:02:16 or unless we are talking about webOS -> Hero Dec 09 01:02:27 A bit of both Dec 09 01:02:29 which is another ethical debate entirely regarding software license for particular hardware Dec 09 01:02:52 Their's definitely falls into this, but you guys have your toe in it Dec 09 01:03:16 webos internals/preware are more like an automotive aftermarket shop Dec 09 01:03:31 AStice, I'm not clear on your exact position any more Dec 09 01:04:22 The point is that a modified OS is essentially another OS, maybe not entirely, but to a degree. By using their software as the basis for your new OS, your developing a competing OS. Dec 09 01:05:16 AStice, if and only if I am distributing that "new OS" does it become a competitive product Dec 09 01:05:18 Apple didn't have multitasking on the iPhone because they argued that it undermined performance. Then jailbreakers did it without undermining performance and Apple had to implement it to satisfy their customers. Thus competition that stems from their own software Dec 09 01:05:22 there is 0 competition in modifying the OS Dec 09 01:05:30 AStice: lol Dec 09 01:05:37 as a matter of fact a modified "better" OS is GOOD for the company Dec 09 01:05:48 because it draws in people who like the stock OS PLUS people who want the stock OS + mods Dec 09 01:06:03 AStice: the creator of an OS has no right to be the one who decides everything it can ever do Dec 09 01:06:28 modification will always occur and it's good. innovation, as microsoft would say Dec 09 01:06:31 That's exactly why Palm is glad to support you guys, and why Apple should have a similar position Dec 09 01:06:43 AStice, what you describe with apple is NOT even close to "competition" Dec 09 01:06:52 as a matter of fact you are completely misusing that term Dec 09 01:07:23 I define competition as any work by another group to create a product that is better than your own Dec 09 01:07:24 what you described is customer demands Dec 09 01:07:34 AStice, well that's just a made up definition Dec 09 01:07:40 which is not what the word means Dec 09 01:07:40 at all Dec 09 01:08:00 That's a whole different discussion - lets call it snargleblarg then Dec 09 01:08:08 every single person who wants to jailbreak iOS has to obtain iOS... end of story with competition Dec 09 01:08:13 The jailbreakers work is snargleblarg, and I think that's ethically wrong Dec 09 01:08:39 Well I disagree -completely- Dec 09 01:09:21 The copyright owner should NEVER have that much control Dec 09 01:09:26 that's just absurd Dec 09 01:09:49 the only thing that does is drive customers -away- Dec 09 01:09:59 Not legally, no. I wouldn't think so. Ethically they should. Which is why I wouldn't violate a companies position like that, but don't fault another person for doing so. Dec 09 01:10:09 ethically they absolutely should not Dec 09 01:10:10 AStice: why ethically? Dec 09 01:10:11 Maybe, but that's Apple's problem, isn't it? Dec 09 01:10:33 and law technically should uphold ethics as best as they can, unethical things should be illegal and vice versa Dec 09 01:11:12 I'm in complete disagreement that you think it's unethical to modify software you purchased just because Apple doesn't think you should Dec 09 01:11:28 Because if I spend a lot of resources and time developing a product, I have a reasonable expectation to not have my own software be a springboard to create better products then my own. If this were the case then companies like Apple would immediately change their minds or fail. Dec 09 01:11:56 I don't think that you are unethical in modifying the software, only in the distribution of that modified software Dec 09 01:12:24 Distribution is where the snargleblarg comes from Dec 09 01:12:24 so jailbroken ios is a different product from ios? Dec 09 01:12:30 Yes, absolutely Dec 09 01:12:48 and not the same product just modified? Dec 09 01:12:52 AStice, who benefits from modified iOS? Dec 09 01:12:58 Apple benefits from ALL iOS Dec 09 01:13:24 More features, more options, more available apps, it's certainly a different and arguably better product. Dec 09 01:13:46 again, you should not ever expect that "owners" of your product will not change. What you should legally and ethically expect is that they will not hurt your monetary gains Dec 09 01:14:03 egaudet: Yes, they do, but if they don't want that to go on, they have a reasonable expectation for it not to go on. In reality that would just in up sinking them, but that would be there own fault. Dec 09 01:14:06 AStice, but they can't and don't sell it. Anyone who wants the better product has to BUY iOS from Apple Dec 09 01:14:35 they have NO reasonable expectation for jailbreaking not to go on Dec 09 01:14:57 Correct, just that the jailbreaks wont be mass distributed Dec 09 01:15:06 they have no reasonable expectation for that either Dec 09 01:15:23 if 100% of iOS owners jailbroke that's their right Dec 09 01:15:44 of course they'd give up their "right" to support from Apple and warranty, but again that is their right to decide ethically and legally Dec 09 01:15:53 s/to support/of support/ Dec 09 01:15:54 egaudet meant: of course they'd give up their "right" of support from Apple and warranty, but again that is their right to decide ethically and legally Dec 09 01:16:30 That's correct, they'd have to give up the right to support, warranty and software updates. But none of those things happen, either Dec 09 01:16:53 Apple clearly thinks it benefits them by controlling the entire experience strictly , but that is their opinion and not their right, not ethically and not legally Dec 09 01:17:46 So, ultimately, what if anything does apple gain from their Position? Dec 09 01:18:03 I disagree. I think that Apple should be able to dictate that, and in the end it WOULD produce a better market. Apple would either change their tunes and allow open modification, like they should, or they would fail, which is their right. Dec 09 01:18:46 AStice, well then we are at an impasse, I will never agree to your stance that any person or corporation has a right to control how paying customers use their products Dec 09 01:19:33 AStice: isn't that equivalent to saying ford shiuld be able to dictate what roads you drive On? Dec 09 01:19:44 I don't think they have a right to how paying customers user their products, only that they have a right to limit how those customers can go about modifying their products. To a degree. And then they have a right to never have to support those modified products again. Dec 09 01:20:21 rboatright: Not at all. Only that they should be able to dictate that they don't have to warranty your car after you put a supercharger on it. Dec 09 01:20:35 On the no support, sure, on the dictate.... naaaaa Dec 09 01:21:07 support yes, right to dictate how or what you modify never. Dec 09 01:21:49 Those without knowledge/ability to figure out jailbreaking have just as much right to use my knowledge/ability on that subject that I freely allow them to use Dec 09 01:21:56 Re support, yes, but I don't think your use of dictate is correct english. Dec 09 01:22:03 freedom Dec 09 01:22:06 FREEDOM Dec 09 01:22:28 Heh, the problem is that without the ability to limit the avenues of modifying your product, you can never ensure that they won't have to support your product. It like the guy who fried his Pre trying to get 2.0 on it and then took it back to Sprint. Dec 09 01:22:54 How many thousands of phones like that do you think Apple has paid for now? That's where it all breaks down. Dec 09 01:22:56 AStice, do you realize how miniscule those occurences are in the first place? Dec 09 01:23:17 Apple has the right to assume that it will never happen, ethically Dec 09 01:23:28 no they don't Dec 09 01:23:44 they have the right to refuse support Dec 09 01:23:48 AStice: yes, but you re saying it very oddly. Egaudet, hard cases make bad law. Dec 09 01:24:20 Re assume. Nope Dec 09 01:24:32 insurance fraud happens Dec 09 01:24:37 Your going to argue that Apple has an ethical requirement to pay for phone broken through unsupported modification because they have no ethical right to limit how those modifications occur? How about the government then? Can they do the limitations? Dec 09 01:24:55 phone broken? Dec 09 01:25:11 they are going to profit from that returned phone as well ya know Dec 09 01:25:22 and no one is talking about ethical return policies Dec 09 01:25:33 s/phone broken/phones broken/ Dec 09 01:25:33 AStice meant: Your going to argue that Apple has an ethical requirement to pay for phones broken through unsupported modification because they have no ethical right to limit how those modifications occur? How about the government then? Can they do the limitations? Dec 09 01:25:37 that is ethics of the user, same as insurance fraud Dec 09 01:26:55 Ethical return policies tie into ethical modifications policies closely. If you can't ensure that a modified phone won't be unethically returned, then you aren't ethically modifying it. Dec 09 01:27:03 Then we get back to the ethics of the modification Dec 09 01:27:18 they do not tie in closely IMO Dec 09 01:27:30 sorry, but another person's actions to not dictate the ethics of my actions Dec 09 01:27:38 it's called personal responsibility Dec 09 01:27:38 s/to not/do not/ Dec 09 01:27:41 rwhitby meant: sorry, but another person's actions do not dictate the ethics of my actions Dec 09 01:27:47 as rwhitby just said I am not responsible for your irresonsible behavior Dec 09 01:27:51 irresponsible* Dec 09 01:28:04 They shouldn't, no, but we as an industry should have a better way of managing these things Dec 09 01:28:23 sure, but that has no bearing on the ethics of the tool Dec 09 01:28:24 It's very easy to tell that a car was modified and shouldn't be supported. Very difficult to tell that a phone was Dec 09 01:28:54 AStice: actually, Palm has very detailed records of exactly what has been done to every phone they have sold Dec 09 01:28:59 AStice, there are very few software modifications that can mess up the physical phone Dec 09 01:29:06 they get updates to those records every single day from each phone automatically Dec 09 01:29:21 and it's really not as hard as you think to know modifications are happening Dec 09 01:29:31 AStice: so Palm knows exactly which phones have had Preware and UberKernel installed on them. Dec 09 01:29:46 And they have a right to use those records accordingly. If Apple doesn't have those records, then they have a right to refuse support in other ways Dec 09 01:29:53 heh, isn't that a patch that turns off that reporting? ;) Dec 09 01:30:00 AStice, fine but that's Apple's problem not the jailbreakres Dec 09 01:30:02 jailbreakers* Dec 09 01:30:03 AStice: correct. and neither of those two things affects the ethics of the tool Dec 09 01:30:35 And that's where our ethics diverge. I feel that it is the responsibility of the jailbreakers, in that case. I also can see why you do not Dec 09 01:30:44 Loudergood: Palm actually *requested* that we turn off reporting on phones that have UberKernel installed. Dec 09 01:30:59 iiiinteresting Dec 09 01:31:11 No need to use their resources if they aren't supporting the phone anymore Dec 09 01:31:22 Cause random kernel reboots by people pushing the limits make it harder to see real trends of real OS problems. Dec 09 01:31:22 AStice, we'll never agree then. The unethical actions of others is not my responsibility Dec 09 01:31:27 never will be Dec 09 01:32:19 you can batter someone with a hammer Dec 09 01:32:34 is it hammer creators responsiblity to stop selling hammers? Dec 09 01:32:39 And I feel like it is my ethical responsibility to do what I can to prevent my work from being used unethically. Dec 09 01:32:41 some idiot will go ahead and sue stanley for that Dec 09 01:32:56 AStice, I agree, but modified software is NOT unethical Dec 09 01:33:06 the unethical part is warranty/support/insurance fraud Dec 09 01:33:10 which is where you should focus your efforts Dec 09 01:33:14 not on preventing modifications Dec 09 01:33:25 No, but if you modify the software, then you should leave a trace of your software behind when it is removed to prevent that insurance fraud Dec 09 01:33:36 AStice: which we do, in fact. Dec 09 01:33:49 One of the many reasons I feel you guys are ethical Dec 09 01:34:02 Do we know that the Apple jailbreakers do as well? Dec 09 01:34:06 but we have no legal or ethical responsibility to do so Dec 09 01:34:34 AStice, it's not their responsibility to Dec 09 01:35:13 I feel you have an ethical responsibility to do so, but once again, that's my opinion. Ethics involve doing what is right for as many parties as possible. It is very easy for them to put that trace in, which would minimize the damage done to Apple, therefore they should Dec 09 01:35:55 AStice: if apple supported jailbreaking, instead of erroneously calling it illegal, they might be more inclined to do so Dec 09 01:36:08 yup Dec 09 01:36:26 or they could be like MS and convince them to stop jailbreaking by "working with them" :P Dec 09 01:37:20 Yes, but sticking it to Apple because they try to prevent their efforts isn't exactly right, either Dec 09 01:37:47 they are not sticking it, they are just not being generous in return for ungenerosity Dec 09 01:37:47 that is definitely not "sticking" it to apple Dec 09 01:38:07 (I'm sure that's not a word) Dec 09 01:38:18 sounds good lol Dec 09 01:38:29 is govnah palm default pretty much the same as stock? Dec 09 01:38:29 damn you and your ungenerosity! Dec 09 01:39:09 If they are refraining from doing an easy thing to prevent damage to Apple then they are as good as sticking it to Apple. I believe that you shouldn't refrain from doing what's right just because someone else isn't Dec 09 01:39:49 Well I disagree that it is "right" thing to do. Dec 09 01:39:58 torchie: Probably depends on the kernel. rwhitby could tell you more. Dec 09 01:40:03 It would be a courtesy, one that I think they'd gladly oblige if Apple requested Dec 09 01:40:12 rather than Apple thinking their rights were illegal Dec 09 01:40:15 torchie: govnah palm default is defined to be the same as stock Dec 09 01:40:36 running the uberkernel that's in preware without special options Dec 09 01:41:12 yep, on a fresh install of both uberkernel and govnah after reset the operation is intended to be identical to stock Dec 09 01:41:13 Isn't being courteous the "right" thing? At least that's how I was raised Dec 09 01:41:32 you know what would be cool an iphone you didnt have to jailbreak Dec 09 01:41:40 AStice: depends on whether the other person is hitting you with a hammer or not Dec 09 01:41:46 That would be super cool Dec 09 01:42:10 I do not believe it is the right thing to encourage someone else to do you harm Dec 09 01:42:21 one with dev tools that weren't mac only? Dec 09 01:43:08 I'm not sure on the whole story. If they genuinely tried being courteous to Apple, and Apple ignored them and tried to shut them down anyway, I'm sure it would be a different story. From what I can tell though it's been a constant back and forth the entire time. Dec 09 01:43:09 Being courteous to someone who is maliciously calling your actions illegal when they are not is not the right thing to do. Dec 09 01:43:16 AStice, you can be courteous by giving away all your money that isn't completely needed to survive Dec 09 01:43:19 is that the "right" thing Dec 09 01:43:43 and let's get real here, we are talking about big corporations who really go after 1 single thing Dec 09 01:43:54 we aren't talking about human rights or individual courtesy Dec 09 01:44:28 AStice: it is true that there are some developers that do try and "stick it" to the vendor. Dec 09 01:44:43 AStice: but that has no bearing on the ethics or legality of what they are doing Dec 09 01:45:12 (with regard to the tool, not to any of their other behaviour) Dec 09 01:45:55 But ethics has a lot to do with the intentions what what their doing. Maybe not legally, no, but ethically yes. A tool that modifies the OS may be legal and ethical, but one that modifies it and allows the vendor to detect that modification is MORE ethical then the former. Dec 09 01:46:15 Because it's done with every effort to prevent damage to the vendor Dec 09 01:47:16 ethics does not have levels Dec 09 01:47:18 If someone returns a phone that fried through a kernel, and Palm replaces it anyway that's their choice since they had means for detecting that modification. If they don't have means to detect that modification, then they are being wronged by not having that option Dec 09 01:47:19 * halfhalo is astonished that this debate is still going on after a solid two hours since it started Dec 09 01:47:27 Ethics absolutely have levels Dec 09 01:47:43 All the best debates last forever Dec 09 01:47:54 AStice, that has nothing to do with distributing the kernel Dec 09 01:48:01 whether they have means to detect it or not Dec 09 01:48:05 like insurance fraud Dec 09 01:48:07 We could debate ethics until we all died and there would still be people debating it Dec 09 01:48:13 you are fighting it at the wrong angle Dec 09 01:48:36 AStice: someone can intentionally drop a phone in a glass of water, and return it under warranty Dec 09 01:49:05 But it does have to do with the distribution of the kernel. You can't ignore a blatant problem by saying "It's not my fault, I told them not to take it back." Dec 09 01:49:07 it is their act which is unethical, not the glass of water. Dec 09 01:49:23 But developers aren't a glass of water Dec 09 01:49:33 I give you the glass of water Dec 09 01:49:34 We have more responsibility then that as intelligent people Dec 09 01:49:50 I hope we're intelligent at least Dec 09 01:49:53 AStice: it is unethical to knowingly distribute something that will unduly damage devices when used as directed Dec 09 01:50:01 I'm not unethical if I don't cover it and give you a straw separately and seal the top and figure out how to identify if you opened the top etc Dec 09 01:50:43 AStice: it is not unethical to distribute a kernel which does not damage devices when used as directed, even if it does not leave a trace. Dec 09 01:51:12 Definitely. However, ethically we should always strive to do what's right for everybody involved. If I can create a jailbreak that supports people that want a modified phone and supports Apple's right to not support that modified phone then THAT is the route I should take. Dec 09 01:51:44 it is a route you can choose to take. you are not unethical if you do not choose to take it Dec 09 01:52:06 especially if someone hitting you with a hammer is affecting your choice Dec 09 01:52:31 Perhaps not in the grand scheme of things, but it is unethical in comparison to leaving the trace Dec 09 01:52:50 something cannot be unethical "in comparison" to something Dec 09 01:53:01 it may be slightly more or less ethical on your scale, but it is definitely not unethical Dec 09 01:53:03 it's ethical or unethical, and software modification is simply NOT unethical Dec 09 01:53:07 Apple is going to try to stop them regardless of what they do, so that's a constant in all situations, that doesn't mean that all other choices should switch Dec 09 01:53:25 AStice: that is apple's choice Dec 09 01:53:33 an unethical choice I might add Dec 09 01:54:12 a choice that someone else makes with regard to their behaviour towards me will definitely (and rightly) affect the choices I make with regard to my behaviour towards them, within ethical limits. Dec 09 01:54:22 Alright egaudet, for your sake I will stop referring to things as being unethical compared to more ethical things Dec 09 01:54:54 True, it is Apple's choice, and it is an unethical choice, but that doesn't mean that we as the developers should start choosing less ethical choices because they are. Dec 09 01:55:23 AStice, why not? Dec 09 01:55:27 agreed, but we should also not choose more ethical choices than are necesary, cause that will encourage thier unethical behaviour Dec 09 01:55:49 corporations need to be educated Dec 09 01:56:05 encouraging unethical behaviour by them is not the right thing to do Dec 09 01:56:13 I believe that this attitude will come back to haunt Apple eventually Dec 09 01:56:16 it's getting a little too righteous. We can all always be MORE ethical in all aspects of life Dec 09 01:56:58 If the developer doesn't feel like they can develop ethically for a platform then they should develop elsewhere. Why even improve the platform if Apple is going to continue to hit them with the metaphorical hammer? Dec 09 01:57:20 AStice: they do feel they are ethical Dec 09 01:57:41 Sorry, I meant less ethical - still working in comparisons here Dec 09 01:57:47 just not as exceedingly and generously ethical as your personal standards would like them to be Dec 09 01:58:16 AStice: the choice of which platform to develop for is not based on the level of ethical behaviour of the vendor alone Dec 09 01:58:54 A lot of it is for me, that's why I'm here and not there, even though my day job is with an iPhone development group Dec 09 01:59:06 pragmatics like feeding your children often come into the picture Dec 09 02:00:31 I can understand that, but I have a feeling that feeding their children isn't the driving motivation for most iOS jailbreakers. Dec 09 02:01:27 I just feel like the industry should work the way that it does here. When the company encourages open modification and improvement, the improvements should come, if not, well, the company should reap their own rewards Dec 09 02:01:42 does anyone know how to get an unlocked pre 2 without a SIM to sync up with the date and time correctly? Dec 09 02:02:11 I haven't been able to get my developer Pre Plus to do it...would love to know if you find out Dec 09 02:02:21 you'd have to install an ntp client to it Dec 09 02:02:42 loudergood: NTP? Dec 09 02:02:59 I'm not sure if there's one in optware or not Dec 09 02:03:16 loudergood: what is NTP exactly? Dec 09 02:03:19 http://www.ntp.org/ Dec 09 02:03:37 Well guys, great discussion, but I've got to head out. Dec 09 02:03:46 there's "NTP Sync" in the internals feed Dec 09 02:03:58 hmm Dec 09 02:04:08 see ya Astice Dec 09 02:04:20 http://webosnerd.com/wiki/index.php/Application:NTP_Sync Dec 09 02:04:32 Looking forward to seeing how all of this works out over the next few years. Dec 09 02:04:40 theoretically you could do it by gps as well...though I haven't seen an app for that Dec 09 02:05:03 anyone know an easy way to unlock a pre 2 I got mine as a pre release from rogers in canada Dec 09 02:05:16 unlock? Dec 09 02:06:03 @loudergood GPS is slow, and plus I leave it off most of the time Dec 09 02:06:13 @loudergood well, it's slow without aGPS Dec 09 02:06:20 yes that's true Dec 09 02:06:23 ya like its locked to the Rogers network Dec 09 02:06:27 AStice: we also agree that's how the industry should operate Dec 09 02:06:31 I'm just saying theoretically it's possible Dec 09 02:06:34 does webos quickinstall correctly apply .patch files to webos 2.0.1? Dec 09 02:06:44 Loudergood: Good point Dec 09 02:06:57 cwgtex: I do not believe WOSQI has been qualified for webOS 2.0 Dec 09 02:07:06 Heh, forgot to ask. Does anyone know where I can get some high resolution renders of the pre 2 that I can swap the screen images on (like on the precentral page) or should I just make my own? Dec 09 02:07:14 @cwgtex I'd pack the patches into IPK format if I were you Dec 09 02:07:14 cwgtex: we only support patches that go through patches.webos-internals.org Dec 09 02:07:36 DUNDUNDUN! Dec 09 02:07:39 Like a photoshop file that's layered Dec 09 02:07:51 seb_or_sam: "Clock Sync" from the app catalog Dec 09 02:08:02 rwhitby: awesome. thanks. Dec 09 02:08:22 it's the first app I install (after Preware) on every one of my webOS devices Dec 09 02:08:51 nice. how exactly does it work? NTP uses upstart, but what does clock sync use? Dec 09 02:09:04 normal webOS periodic scheduling Dec 09 02:09:21 ah. Dec 09 02:09:57 You have to use MetaDoctor to bypass activation in order to get to the app catalog, right? Dec 09 02:10:11 rwhitby: ok, i just wanted to apply the .patch first to verify everything was good. I'll just go ahead and submit it, and if it doesn't function properly i'll just be quick to submit an update. Dec 09 02:10:44 @Astice No, you can just doctor and borrow someone's SIM card for a bit to get through first use. then it's all fine ;) Dec 09 02:11:15 i got my early access finalized today, so now i have the updated linux novacom finally Dec 09 02:11:42 @Astice: You can give them their SIM back when first use is done, and it should be fine. You don't need a SIM after that Dec 09 02:13:01 Would it be compatible with an iPhone 4's simcard? Dec 09 02:13:22 nope iphone 4 has microsim Dec 09 02:13:33 Astice: The iPhone 4 has a microsim but you can get an adapter Dec 09 02:13:51 you can get a pair of scissors Dec 09 02:14:10 @torchie no that's only to convert a mini sim into a micro Dec 09 02:14:19 there are mini sims? Dec 09 02:14:24 * halfhalo has a sim card lying around here for just this purpose Dec 09 02:14:31 torchie normal SIMs are mini SIMs Dec 09 02:14:41 so there are maxi sims? Dec 09 02:14:44 Maybe I could borrow one from the ATT store for a little while? Dec 09 02:14:58 @torchie kinda. they're the size of credit cards Dec 09 02:15:41 oh those are the things you rip the sims out of arent they Dec 09 02:16:13 cwgtex: you can try WOSQI - it may well work Dec 09 02:16:41 torchie: I believe so Dec 09 02:17:40 Or, does the 3GS use the same sim? I think we have a 3GS around here somewhere Dec 09 02:17:44 torchie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscriber_Identity_Module#Card_sizes Dec 09 02:18:15 @Astice: Yes, the 3GS has a miniSIM, which is what you want Dec 09 02:19:49 Cool - I'll see if we have one laying around tomorrow, then. Well, I'm leaving for real this time. Talk to you guys later Dec 09 02:20:28 that was an interesting 2hr diversion :D Dec 09 02:21:18 was more than 2 hours... Dec 09 02:22:11 s/2hr/2hrs+/ Dec 09 02:22:12 ka6sox meant: that was an interesting 2hrs+ diversion :D Dec 09 02:22:21 better Dec 09 02:22:58 * halfhalo takes a break from studying Dec 09 02:25:53 * scoutcamper waits for more interesting discussion Dec 09 02:27:06 your about 5 minutes to late Dec 09 02:28:30 halfhalo, can you sum up the AStice conversation? Dec 09 02:28:43 i dont see it in the logs yet Dec 09 02:28:51 nope, havent really been paying attention Dec 09 02:28:55 :( Dec 09 02:31:03 * halfhalo does havemacaroni tho Dec 09 02:31:29 rwhitby, can you sum up the AStice conversation? egaudet destinal as well, i left after egaudet talked about fortune cookies, what his said Dec 09 02:32:07 it's all in the logs Dec 09 02:32:26 i dont see the logs p yet Dec 09 02:32:49 http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/webos-internals.txt Dec 09 02:32:56 Dec 09 02:32:26 i dont see the logs p yet Dec 09 02:36:28 :D Dec 09 02:52:05 rwhitby, oil: last thing I need right now before I can get started with a test setup for the lazy loading stuff is what url's you want. They can be constructed out of any element found in the feed + any source element + whether its testing or not and the webos version its for (both parsed from the path to the feed) Dec 09 02:52:30 well, downloading from the web will always be everything Dec 09 02:52:40 for changes to be made to the local database Dec 09 02:52:42 which is queried **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 09 02:59:57 2010