**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 11 02:59:57 2011 Dec 11 03:12:59 oldtopman: wiki editing rights granted Dec 11 03:13:29 rwhitby: Thank you! Dec 11 03:13:51 rwhitby: I guess it's been a while since I edited the wiki...but not more than a few months...it's been locked since? Dec 11 03:14:13 yep, we had some issues with spammers actually having humans create accounts and verify emails Dec 11 03:14:28 blah. that's not cool. Dec 11 03:15:12 is it too much to ask for my account to have those rights? (unless it already has them) Dec 11 03:15:41 done Dec 11 03:15:58 thanks. Dec 11 03:18:50 Page updated to 304 Dec 11 04:34:48 hey rwhitby **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 11 05:00:12 2011 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 11 05:00:37 2011 Dec 11 06:11:23 whats up party people Dec 11 06:19:46 not much Dec 11 06:20:15 working on compiling gstreamer to kill the boredom Dec 11 07:46:54 Anyone know offhand the file that controls the CSS of the wave launcher? Is it contained in the frameworks or elsewhere? Dec 11 07:47:03 I need to shrink its height about 8px Dec 11 07:59:30 hi all Dec 11 07:59:38 yp Dec 11 07:59:40 yo rather Dec 11 08:01:24 so another sale tonight.. might pick me up a couple of touchpads Dec 11 08:01:36 is that the refurb sale? Dec 11 08:02:13 yes Dec 11 08:03:17 I have no use for a tablet :C But my parents are enjoying their 32gb firesale TP :P Dec 11 08:03:44 i think it would be neat to run win 7 on it if possible Dec 11 08:04:15 Then MAYBE I could use it. I need a productivity device, and with the work I do netbooks and tablets just dont cut it Dec 11 08:07:54 hmm no ARM support for windows.. oh well Dec 11 08:08:16 WinCE/Embedded I thought Dec 11 08:08:21 And possibly Win8 Dec 11 08:10:43 win 8 public beta in feb next year might be a go Dec 11 08:11:07 Linux+WINE? Dec 11 08:11:14 or is wine a compiled .so? Dec 11 08:11:50 this is totally on topic Dec 11 08:12:06 whats the topic again? Dec 11 08:12:56 "Discussion about webOS internals (not webOS SDK usage or anything to do with Android). Use #webos-general for off-topic stuff. Honor all NDAs, licenses, carrier agreements and copyrights. Twitter: @webosinternals Logs: logs.nslu2-linux.org Wiki: www.webos-internals.org Preware: www.preware.org Patches: patches.webos-internals.org Testing Feed: testing.preware.org" Dec 11 08:16:28 Binaries compiled for the Pre ARMV7, are they the same as binaries compiled for the Veer ARMV7? Dec 11 08:16:36 Or is it not that simple a thing Dec 11 08:17:43 usually its that simple Dec 11 08:18:14 Unless some libraries versions differ between them Dec 11 08:18:21 I assume the graphics chipset between the two are different right? Dec 11 08:19:41 I'm trying to think if my resident app process could bring some of the 2.2.4 (Veer latest) or 2.3 (Pre3 latest) apps with SOs to the Pre devices that are on 2.1 or 1.4.5 Dec 11 08:21:03 mainly Skype. But I think that may run into some ugly with Synergy lacking on 1.4.5 Dec 11 08:21:25 or the new centralized "accounts" management system & associated plugins Dec 11 11:55:13 hmm. my pre2, running OnDemandTcl1100 profile on UberKernel parks itself at 1.1ghz and occasionally flips to 1ghz when it's docked, never going any lower. weird? Dec 11 13:11:45 hello Dec 11 13:43:54 any news about 2.2.4 webos doctor for unlocked pre2 ? Dec 11 18:35:44 Hi everyone.. I was trying to find some info on the Webos-internals wiki about the port of 3.0 to the EVO 3D. Anyone know where I should look Dec 11 18:36:01 seems my search-fu is not at one today.. Dec 11 18:36:18 I don't think anything public has been made about that Dec 11 18:36:26 it was one dev who tried it and that's all Dec 11 18:36:38 probably something really internal (proof of concept) Dec 11 18:36:48 anyone know who the dev was? Dec 11 18:37:26 PuffTheMagic or PuffTheMagic_ or PuffTheM` Dec 11 18:38:09 Many thanks Dec 11 18:43:21 Domingan, it wasnt a port Dec 11 18:43:37 it was just copying some files Dec 11 18:44:11 it no where near complete or usable Dec 11 18:44:33 @PuffTheMagic: how'd you force it into software GL? Dec 11 18:44:52 I'm having no such luck here, looks like a compile-time thing Dec 11 18:44:58 luna has a argument you pass to it Dec 11 18:45:02 right, -S Dec 11 18:45:03 Do you have a dump of the Magic? Dec 11 18:45:05 which it ignores Dec 11 18:45:20 noxis, it doesnt ignore it Dec 11 18:45:35 s/noxis/no/ Dec 11 18:45:36 PuffTheMagic meant: no, it doesnt ignore it Dec 11 18:45:42 hmmm it does now, it still tries to start hardware GL Dec 11 18:45:51 unless it didn't in earlier builds of the OS, perhaps? Dec 11 18:46:17 it demands /dev/kgsl-3d0 Dec 11 18:46:21 no matter what args you pass Dec 11 18:46:28 so I can't just get frame buffer output Dec 11 18:46:37 what kernel are you using? Dec 11 18:46:43 Domingan, even if I did I couldnt give it to you Dec 11 18:46:56 the only one that seems to boot on my Sensation; is stock Android Dec 11 18:47:05 identical to the setup I use to boot MeeGo on the HD2 Dec 11 18:47:51 I can get LunaSysMgr to capture the screen, just not display anything. Logs stuff for a few mins then quits Dec 11 18:47:59 its really not worth the effort till we get code Dec 11 18:48:22 well even with code it won't help much unless there are adreno drivers to go with it Dec 11 18:48:24 what scripts are you starting on boot? Dec 11 18:48:56 I've been doing everything manually so far, I can't seem to get my Sensation to boot a script /init, only the Android /init Dec 11 18:49:10 so I've been hacking up a clockwork ramdisk Dec 11 18:49:52 a lot more would just work if I could get it to run /init as a script, and I'd have Ubuntu and MeeGo booting too Dec 11 18:50:03 what cmdline args do you have set in your kernel and fastboot? Dec 11 18:50:15 --cmdline 'consoleblank=0 no_console_suspend=1 console=tty0' Dec 11 18:50:21 when creating a boot.img Dec 11 18:50:31 which I flash to recovery, and dual boot with Dec 11 18:50:48 webos init does not like changing the console= line Dec 11 18:50:53 it goes into an infinite loop Dec 11 18:51:18 either way, I can't get my init script on the ramdisk to run ; if that worked then the rest would be easy to bootstrap Dec 11 18:51:42 is there something in the kernel that you can toggle at compile time to say whether you accept scripts as init ? Dec 11 18:51:46 you shouldnt need a ram disk either Dec 11 18:52:09 the ramdisk is just what I'm used to, allows me dual boot on Recovery mode Dec 11 18:52:10 just create a partition with CWM Dec 11 18:52:36 I didn't want to screw with the internal disk until I know the rest works Dec 11 18:52:54 its all on the external mmc Dec 11 18:53:14 I have the entire SD card partitioned for webOS Dec 11 18:53:34 doing this kind of thing: Dec 11 18:53:38 mount -t ext2 -o noatime,nodiratime,sync,rw /dev/block/mmcblk1 /sdcard Dec 11 18:53:38 exec switch_root /sdcard /sbin/init Dec 11 18:55:22 u shouldnt need to switchroot Dec 11 18:55:23 in theory the exact same setup is what I use on the HD2, so I could theoretically try an install on that, but was choosing the Sensation since the hardware matches the TouchPad a bit better Dec 11 18:55:33 just boot directly too the external mmc Dec 11 18:55:46 so, ok Dec 11 18:55:58 when I mkbootimg, I point it at the partition directly? Dec 11 18:56:06 and ignore the ramdisk Dec 11 18:56:07 and find out what your default, console= was for your sensation Dec 11 18:56:11 for the evo it was console=ttyHSL0 Dec 11 18:56:23 upstart on webos does not like console=tty* Dec 11 18:56:24 there was no default with the kernel I have Dec 11 18:56:38 so I can leave it out, since I'm not getting fbcon anyway Dec 11 18:56:48 you need to set it somewhere Dec 11 18:57:10 ok hold up let me create a new boot.img Dec 11 18:57:34 when u say there is none for your kernel, do you mean in the defconfig or when you boot android and cat /proc/cmdline u get nothing? Dec 11 18:58:02 when I tried to compile the kernel from htc, the device doesn't boot it. I pulled the .config from the running OS, too Dec 11 18:58:08 no idea why it won't load Dec 11 18:58:34 i used something like this: Dec 11 18:58:34 mkbootimg --base 0x40400000 --kernel arch/arm/boot/zImage --ramdisk NONE --cmdline "androidboot.hardware=shooter no_console_suspend=1 rootdelay=2 root=b342 rw" -o ~/boot.img Dec 11 18:59:12 how do you know it doesnt run it if you have no fb Dec 11 19:00:02 interesting, your base address is identical to mine. I'm pretty sure the evo and sensation are identical hardware Dec 11 19:00:13 it reboots after a few seconds Dec 11 19:00:19 and I tried a few other things Dec 11 19:01:23 thanks for the above, that's really helpful Dec 11 19:02:29 and then to boot Dec 11 19:02:29 adb reboot bootloader; fastboot flash boot ~/boot.img; fastboot reboot Dec 11 19:02:36 gotcha Dec 11 19:03:02 I'll have to mod the rootfs to run adbd in a bit, if this works Dec 11 19:03:31 i created an upstart script for it Dec 11 19:03:38 and it turns on the led so i know its up Dec 11 19:03:41 sounds like a good idea Dec 11 19:03:52 let me see if I have that around still Dec 11 19:04:29 this seems a bit more promising… it hasn't rebooted yet Dec 11 19:04:51 tho nothing has tried to capture the display yet, so I guess it hasn't got as far as luna Dec 11 19:05:17 well first boot takes a min or so Dec 11 19:05:26 but it could also be stuck in a loop Dec 11 19:05:34 or 5 mins, depending on webOS' mood :P Dec 11 19:05:37 upstart init tried to read from console= Dec 11 19:05:51 I may have to try again from a clean rootfs, I've been hacking this one all day Dec 11 19:05:52 and it would hang forever when I ued tty0 Dec 11 19:06:31 so, question Dec 11 19:06:41 did you have to do anything to the webOS rootfs to see the UI? Dec 11 19:06:50 that's the part I wasn't sure about Dec 11 19:07:10 i removed a few of the upstart scripts Dec 11 19:07:12 like powerd Dec 11 19:07:23 ok Dec 11 19:07:27 and u have to touch a file so that firstuse didnt start Dec 11 19:07:36 right right Dec 11 19:07:37 and tweak sometyhing else to force SW rendering Dec 11 19:08:03 ok time for adb, since this is definitely 'working'. Hasn't halted yet Dec 11 19:12:20 would adding adbd & to miniboot.sh be a dumb way to do it? Dec 11 19:13:15 i would just make a upstart script for it Dec 11 19:19:49 ok, explain to me the root=b342 part ; I'll probably have to change that for this device Dec 11 19:22:56 what do u want to know about it? Dec 11 19:23:12 how would that correspond to mknod nodes? Dec 11 19:23:31 or how would I find out what my sd card partition is? Dec 11 19:23:40 since I can't do root=/dev/block/mmcblk1 Dec 11 19:23:48 boot a image where "root=" Dec 11 19:23:55 this will cause the kernel to not boot properly Dec 11 19:23:56 right Dec 11 19:23:59 and reboot after a few secondz Dec 11 19:24:04 then when it goes into recovery mode Dec 11 19:24:09 u can look at the last kmsg Dec 11 19:24:15 and it will give u the list of valid options Dec 11 19:24:35 hmm Dec 11 19:24:55 I'm flashing to recovery tho, not the boot partition Dec 11 19:25:18 tho I can flash cwm and adb to that if I need details Dec 11 19:25:39 idk if that will work Dec 11 19:25:54 hrm Dec 11 19:26:08 by flashing to boot, when boot fails it automatically goes into recovery with out a powerdown Dec 11 19:26:15 that is how the kmesg is preserved Dec 11 19:27:00 right, and the correct root device will be logged there? Dec 11 19:28:11 hello Dec 11 19:29:03 ya Dec 11 19:29:07 well Dec 11 19:29:15 it will list all of the available devices Dec 11 19:29:24 and u have to pick the right one Dec 11 19:29:24 gotcha Dec 11 19:29:44 since I don't have a stock boot.img, I'm wary of blowing it away Dec 11 19:29:54 tho maybe booting into cwm will help me figure it out Dec 11 19:30:06 make a recovery backup with cwm Dec 11 19:32:16 and what did you pass it as the correct boot device on the Evo? Dec 11 19:32:24 just wanna know what I'm looking for Dec 11 19:32:43 huh? Dec 11 19:32:52 root= Dec 11 19:33:05 or is b342 correct for the Evo? Dec 11 19:33:05 what about it Dec 11 19:33:19 b342 is correct for my partition scheme Dec 11 19:33:28 it has nothing to do with the evo Dec 11 19:33:38 ok Dec 11 19:33:39 u need to pass some bullshit root=jaksdhkajhkj Dec 11 19:33:42 so that it fails Dec 11 19:34:06 but when it does fail, it will give a list of all partitions and the code that corresponds to them Dec 11 19:34:13 so use that to pick the right one for your root Dec 11 19:34:31 ok. Guess I'll blow away my boot partition then Dec 11 19:34:41 will this work with CWM as my recovery partition? Dec 11 19:35:00 i have cwm on my recovery Dec 11 19:35:09 sweet, should work then Dec 11 19:35:10 i used that to make recovery backups on my mmc Dec 11 19:35:16 so ic an always restore Dec 11 19:35:23 and it lists the partitions onscreen? or did you grab over adb Dec 11 19:35:28 which is why my webos root is only a partition and not the whole thing Dec 11 19:35:35 :9 Dec 11 19:35:37 :( Dec 11 19:35:53 after it fails it will autoboot recovery Dec 11 19:35:54 adb in Dec 11 19:35:54 question is - will it list my external SD card as a partition? Dec 11 19:36:38 it should list all of the partitions that is knows about Dec 11 19:39:09 in cat /proc/last_kmsg Dec 11 19:39:56 gotcha Dec 11 19:41:49 and what does the 342 number itself refer to? Dec 11 19:41:58 as in Dec 11 19:42:04 I know it's the partition Dec 11 19:42:15 but is there any way to deduce it Dec 11 19:42:27 idk Dec 11 19:42:31 hmm Dec 11 19:42:38 ok Dec 11 19:45:34 im sure its documented somewhere Dec 11 19:46:39 probably in the kernel source Dec 11 19:46:52 dumping the boot.img now, gonna try it your way Dec 11 19:47:07 takes its time :P Dec 11 20:01:58 PuffTheMagic: how long would I expect it to take on a failed boot before it launches recovery? Dec 11 20:04:30 idk, but when my boot fail, i can tell its in recovery mode because the led on my evo turns red Dec 11 20:04:36 even if the display is off Dec 11 20:04:40 hmm gotcha Dec 11 20:04:56 I'm not having much luck here with auto booting recovery Dec 11 20:05:06 perhaps you need to fail a certain amount of times? Dec 11 20:05:13 I'm letting it boot loop 10 times for now Dec 11 20:05:39 what did u set for root= ? Dec 11 20:05:44 blahblah Dec 11 20:05:45 :P Dec 11 20:05:57 it just hung forever at that tho Dec 11 20:05:59 didn't reboot Dec 11 20:06:12 trying another boot.img I made earlier that just reboots Dec 11 20:06:53 try setting a bogus init= too Dec 11 20:06:57 good idea Dec 11 20:07:22 i cant remember exactly what I did Dec 11 20:07:31 sure, gotcha Dec 11 20:07:32 but i def got the root= setting from last_kmsg Dec 11 20:09:45 ooh Dec 11 20:09:53 from docs Dec 11 20:09:53 (e.g. /dev/sda3 is major 8, minor 3, so you could use root=0x803 as an alternative.) Dec 11 20:10:04 so my sd is 179,64 Dec 11 20:10:11 so that way I could get a root device Dec 11 20:37:13 did it work? Dec 11 20:43:01 it doesn't seem to be getting as far as my adbd upstart script, if it is working Dec 11 20:43:11 just stays on the HTC logo, doesn't rebootr Dec 11 20:43:36 I followed http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Crond#Alternative_to_Crond_Using_Only_Upstart for my script - so should be ok? Dec 11 20:43:44 copied rc0 Dec 11 20:43:47 or rcS Dec 11 20:43:56 then exec /bin/adbd Dec 11 20:47:16 does anyone know which "open source license" webos will be released with ? Dec 11 20:48:00 no Dec 11 20:48:04 they have not announced this Dec 11 20:49:11 ok, then i will just hope for it to be bsd or mit Dec 11 20:49:24 I imagine they'll use their own license Dec 11 20:49:30 and make it compatible with others Dec 11 20:49:45 really? what makes you say that? Dec 11 20:49:46 I wouldn't expect GPL, but who know Dec 11 20:49:47 s Dec 11 20:50:12 hmm, i am a believer of the bsd license Dec 11 20:50:24 all does gpl communist crap doesnt cut for me Dec 11 20:50:46 either give something out or not, do not attach strings to it ;) Dec 11 20:51:10 seems like it's more communist to use bsd/mit... you give it away and you get nothing back Dec 11 20:51:21 I don't think you understand the word communism Dec 11 20:53:38 actually this is not the place for a religous fight i guess Dec 11 20:53:52 :) Dec 11 20:57:30 GPL == DRM Dec 11 20:57:41 ... but you're right, it's not the place. Dec 11 20:57:49 some people are uncomfortable releasing something under bsdl, and then having a company like apple swoop down and make billions off of their work, without making hardly any contributions back. Dec 11 20:57:53 you can't blame them. Dec 11 20:58:18 gpl supporters are interested in encouraging a community process. Dec 11 20:58:45 i am constantly surprised how people can tolerate proprietary licenses, and yet bitch about the gpl's restrictions. Dec 11 20:59:16 why is it okay for corporations to add restrictions, but not community developers? Dec 11 21:00:03 I'm not suprised. I long ago decided people in general have an almost unlimited capacity for complaining Dec 11 21:00:15 ^ Dec 11 21:00:57 the bsdl *can* be useful for things like the tcp/ip stack, where you *want* it to spread and become a universal standard. i guess it's all about what you want to do. Dec 11 21:01:42 but for those purposes, i would personally rather have cc0 (effectively public domain in license form) Dec 11 21:02:10 not sure that was the original intention, but I'm glad it was bsd so that msft could replace their crappy tcp/ip stack with a bsd-based one Dec 11 21:02:36 i think cc0 stuff would be great for education. you could learn on the code and not be afraid that you might've inadvertently violated some random copyright. Dec 11 21:03:15 dwc-: yeah, same here. Dec 11 21:06:41 PuffTheMagic_ : do you remember what version of 3.x you originally did this with? Dec 11 21:06:52 I think most of the open source licenses work fine for educational purposes Dec 11 21:06:58 no i dont Dec 11 21:07:00 prob the orig Dec 11 21:07:05 hmm Dec 11 21:07:14 stroughtonsmith: try using your script to turn on the led first Dec 11 21:07:20 that way u at least know its getting started Dec 11 21:07:33 hmm how would I do that? which script Dec 11 21:07:37 make sure your script starts after /dev is popuated Dec 11 21:07:48 you need to write to a file in /sys Dec 11 21:07:54 i forget which it is Dec 11 21:07:54 gotcha Dec 11 21:07:58 but is easy to find Dec 11 21:08:02 it will probably be different for my device Dec 11 21:08:13 gonna be hard to try this without adb launching Dec 11 21:08:45 well boot into cwm Dec 11 21:08:58 that should be the same kernel as you are using basically Dec 11 21:09:07 use that to figure out the led Dec 11 21:09:09 good plan Dec 11 21:09:30 Brybry: depends how paranoid you are i guess. copyright is very ugly. it really would be ideal to be able to learn on 'pure' code. Dec 11 21:10:21 that way you don't have to be afraid to copy snippets over or whatever. or years later ask yourself if you copied some code from a project or if it's actually your own.. you might not remember. Dec 11 21:10:39 (all of the community licences tend to foster community contribution and growth -- BSD licence says that it's okay for me to make money off of my stuff if I want, or for somebody else to make money off of my stuff if they want, and is much easier for corporations to cope with than GPL) Dec 11 21:10:55 educational facilities are typically far more restrictive with their own IP Dec 11 21:11:14 Brybry: i'm not talking about educational 'facilities' Dec 11 21:11:23 i'm talking about education. in general. Dec 11 21:11:27 and copying is not learning Dec 11 21:11:30 not the 'industry' of education. Dec 11 21:11:54 azalyn - yeah, there's multiple issues w/ copy and paste code, copyright only being one of them. Dec 11 21:13:37 it's not easier for corporations to cope with really.. it depends.. corporations prefer the GPL if they are contributing to a project, but prefer the BSDL if they want to take code and not give their changes back. it's that simple. Dec 11 21:13:50 I'm not going to say cc0 would be bad for learning but I don't think it's really needed Dec 11 21:13:59 azalyn - it's not nearly that simple. Dec 11 21:14:36 If they're incorporating code as a part of a project of their own, it's reasonable for them to be willing to contribute back to the public codebase, but not want to additionally contribute what they've got separately. Dec 11 21:15:08 Brybry: the problem with learning is that the modern situation is different. no one is impressed by 'hello world' programs anymore. it's a terrible way to teach people, no one is motivated with such horrible exercises. Dec 11 21:15:28 a better way to learn would probably be to start more high-level. Dec 11 21:15:34 Ugh, no. Dec 11 21:15:34 if htey own the copyright on it (their code) they don't have to license all those changes to everyone else Dec 11 21:15:46 there was a time when people were impressed by hello world applications? Dec 11 21:15:52 you take baby steps Dec 11 21:15:56 same as when learning anything well Dec 11 21:16:17 dwc- GPL says that "derived works must be distributed under the same licence" Dec 11 21:16:45 that's the license i'ts offered to *other people* under ... Dec 11 21:16:53 that may be an idealistic approach, but not a realistic one. when you're a teacher and you see people dropping out of computer classes more than ever, you get more pragmatic about how to "properly" teach. Dec 11 21:17:02 look up carnegie melon's "alice" for an example. Dec 11 21:17:08 they had this problem. Dec 11 21:17:23 azalyn - I do like languages like logo... but it depends on what your target audience is. Dec 11 21:17:52 * cat-xeger 's tired of dealing with programmers that think that hardware/memory is free, have no grip on basic concepts like registers, overflows, yada... Dec 11 21:18:00 I can promise you that throwing people into recursion on day 1 of a C++ class when they don't even know syntax is a bad idea Dec 11 21:18:03 dwc- Er, what? Dec 11 21:18:09 and that's not even complicated Dec 11 21:18:35 brybry - from what I've seen, recursion is something that trips up a lot of people... don't know if you've got a good way to teach it though? Dec 11 21:18:56 if I own the code, I can use my own code however I like Dec 11 21:19:08 I can offer it to other people under the GPL Dec 11 21:19:19 any contributions back from other people would be under the GPL Dec 11 21:19:21 dwc- If you include GPL'd code with your code, IIRC, it's contaminated Dec 11 21:19:35 cat-xeger: of course. i'm not saying that people should only learn java or something.. i'm saying that whatever gets someone to learn, is better than them not learning at all.. hopefully you can teach them the low level concepts later as time passes. Dec 11 21:19:40 yes, incorporating other people's gpl'd code would not be allowed Dec 11 21:19:46 in order to understand recursion you must first understand recursion :D Dec 11 21:19:56 dwc- ... which is what I was calling out as an issue. Dec 11 21:19:57 but you are more than free to use your own original version Dec 11 21:19:58 but you'll still be more successful if you get them motivated, by satisfying their need for instant gratification somehow. Dec 11 21:20:05 sans those contributions Dec 11 21:20:09 ... if you happen to include gpl'd code with your existing codebase, you've then got a problem. Dec 11 21:20:15 however you like Dec 11 21:20:18 ... unless you want to gpl that too. Dec 11 21:20:25 cat-xeger: the LGPL exists precisely to allow linking to proprietary code. Dec 11 21:20:28 that is what all libraries use. Dec 11 21:20:30 brybry :P Dec 11 21:21:04 azalyn - yes... but if you're heading that way, take apache or bsd, and do it right. Dec 11 21:21:13 ... why? Dec 11 21:21:20 why is that "right" ? Dec 11 21:21:55 what has the apache or bsd license provided the community with? why in the heck should community members be concerned about the needs of companies who's only interest is to make proprietary forks? Dec 11 21:22:16 i don't understand this line of reasoning. Dec 11 21:22:23 yay licensing religion Dec 11 21:22:24 azalyn: you are aware that the entire internet is built upon "bsd sockets"? Dec 11 21:22:39 azalyn - agreed on the motivation thing... just hard to get from "ooh shiny" to useful. Dec 11 21:22:52 EricBlade: yes, in fact if you scroll up, you'll notice that i mentioned it already. perhaps you should read the backlog before joining a debate. ;) Dec 11 21:23:12 azalyn - Er, the apache and bsd licences have provided large swaths of what the Internet is built on, both free and commercial. Dec 11 21:23:36 cat-xeger: example: http://www.mysql.com/about/legal/licensing/index.html Dec 11 21:23:40 ... but, any thoughts on how to get people from "ooh shiny" programming to clean programming? Dec 11 21:24:04 cat-xeger: some of the best programmers today started on the commodore 64. i think one reason for that is because it was a gaming machine. 'ooh shiny' is quite a motivator. although today games have uh.. evolved.. to put it lightly. Dec 11 21:24:11 (see also: bdb, qt) Dec 11 21:24:24 (dwc- or just see apache... ) Dec 11 21:24:31 aside from linux, the vast majority of everything that is open source and has made a difference in the world, came from Berkeley Dec 11 21:24:45 the doom3 engine was opensourced recently though. which is a pretty great thing i think. Dec 11 21:25:00 wait, what? Dec 11 21:25:03 azalyn - I'd have thought that it was because it was easy to type in code and get something back fairly immediately Dec 11 21:25:14 * dwc- knows of no such berkeley connection to, e.g. ncsa mosiac Dec 11 21:25:30 I have to agree with cat-xeger Dec 11 21:25:40 and that it was affordable/what they had on hand Dec 11 21:26:18 cat-xeger: I don't think apache is multi-licensed Dec 11 21:26:46 there were other factors, but the fact is you could do things that were neat with it... i mean i don't think people want to do boring stuff.. Dec 11 21:27:08 depends how you define boring Dec 11 21:27:21 that first time as a kid when you just get output on the screen that you wrote it kind of exciting Dec 11 21:27:30 and some of us just like to build things, games or not Dec 11 21:27:45 i love programming. i'm so sick. Dec 11 21:27:50 I mean, legos weren't boring! Dec 11 21:27:59 EricBlade: i'm not sure if you actually scrolled up or not. but what i said originally is that BSDL is good when you want to spread a standard or something. Dec 11 21:28:08 like tcp/ip Dec 11 21:28:12 etc. Dec 11 21:28:29 also good for education. Dec 11 21:28:48 but again, cc0 would be even more preferable for those uses. Dec 11 21:28:49 brybry - yeah :) I haven't ever been a gaming sort, but it's fun to program Dec 11 21:28:57 azalyn - mileage varies. Dec 11 21:29:18 I'm quite looking forward to what FreeBSD is doing now -- they're moving completely away from gcc et al Dec 11 21:29:58 Brybry: you just made my point though, that's what i meant when i said "hello world isn't interesting" ... like you just said, just getting output was exciting.. what i'm saying is no kid today would be excited by that. they've been desensitized in a way. Dec 11 21:30:06 ... also, I really don't see what's different about people making money off of your software in either case. Dec 11 21:30:22 they don't understand why even just doing output is an impressive thing, because they don't get the complexity of a computer. Dec 11 21:30:33 they are impressed by great 3D graphics Dec 11 21:30:35 and eye candy Dec 11 21:30:47 azalyn - depends on the kid, and how you set expectations Dec 11 21:31:25 * cat-xeger 's found that "It's doing what I told it to do" is up there on the way cool list. Dec 11 21:31:27 cat-xeger: i'm talking statistics here. if there had been a study back then, i would be willing to bet you'd see a huge drop off today. in terms of youngsters who are interested in things like that. Dec 11 21:31:58 in fact, almost every single time someone's asked me how programming works.. it's been because they wanted to make a game. Dec 11 21:32:00 azalyn - link? I'm curious. Dec 11 21:32:01 good nigh Dec 11 21:32:20 azalyn - interesting. I think that'd be under 5% of the people that have talked to me about programming. Dec 11 21:32:42 cat-xeger: i didn't say i had statistics.. i'm saying that i'm willing to bet that this is the case. and i've already heard educational institutions struggling with this problem. Dec 11 21:32:58 carnegie melon created a project called 'alice' to address this very problem. Dec 11 21:32:58 azalyn - ah, sorry. I thought you said that you had stats about that. Dec 11 21:33:26 It sounds like an extension of the problem the trades are having, in many wasy Dec 11 21:33:31 alice is essentially a sort of visual java IDE combined with a primitive game engine. Dec 11 21:33:57 ... but I'd say that's all about instant gratification in whatever form. Dec 11 21:34:05 http://www.alice.org/ Dec 11 21:34:25 ( http://www.fossology.org/ ) Dec 11 21:34:35 * rwhitby notes that #webos-general exists for when discussions go too far off-topic ... Dec 11 21:34:35 oh god alice... Dec 11 21:34:36 yeah, but like i said. perhaps satisfying people's desire for instant gratification is a pragmatic way to address the problem. Dec 11 21:34:45