**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 01 02:59:59 2012 Aug 01 03:05:29 HaDAk|bbl, yep. Aug 01 03:05:50 i wonder if we'll get anywhere with it? Aug 01 03:06:26 ok, i've now spent two hours and not been able to override a single cmake variable Aug 01 03:06:30 with PIC? Aug 01 03:06:36 yup Aug 01 03:06:37 except one time when i turned the compiler variable into garbage Aug 01 03:06:45 it'll get places :) i think Aug 01 03:07:03 i hope so. Aug 01 03:07:06 i like the PIC guys. Aug 01 03:07:13 * PatrickC is one of the PIC guys Aug 01 03:07:17 * HaDAk|bbl is too Aug 01 03:07:23 haha Aug 01 03:07:24 nice Aug 01 03:18:41 hi Aug 01 03:19:10 'lo Aug 01 03:23:15 PatrickC: looking forward to your response to https://www.facebook.com/phxdevices/posts/334234706668325 Aug 01 03:23:40 (I mean, the real response, not the corporate "we'll tell you later") Aug 01 03:23:51 rwhitby, that i don't have an answer to yet Aug 01 03:24:01 you're part of PIC aren't you? Aug 01 03:24:06 yes i am Aug 01 03:24:09 so is HaDAk Aug 01 03:24:16 but you don't know what the plans are? Aug 01 03:24:25 for that part, no i don't Aug 01 03:24:38 oh, there are multiple parts to PIC ? Aug 01 03:24:47 yes Aug 01 03:25:08 do the parts not share plans with each other? Aug 01 03:25:49 If you're not in a position to share those plans, please do not break any NDAs. Aug 01 03:26:10 I am under an NDA for most things, but that particular piece I do not personally know Aug 01 03:26:54 OK, I'm looking forward to the public reponse, since I don't have a technical solution to that question, so I'm interested to know if PIC does. Aug 01 03:27:59 And I expect the rest of the community is particularly looking for concrete evidence of technical solutions at this particular point in time, rather than promises with no public substance. Aug 01 03:28:34 if i could figure out how to configure cmake, i'd start Aug 01 03:48:07 I think I'm-a head off and grab some shuteye Aug 01 03:48:32 enjoy that. Aug 01 03:49:27 i will, nn all! Aug 01 04:06:58 HadAk do you ever sleep? Aug 01 04:07:27 uh Aug 01 04:07:30 trick question? Aug 01 04:07:37 i SHOULD be sleeping Aug 01 04:07:45 but EricBlade needs halp Aug 01 04:11:31 what TZ are you in? Aug 01 04:11:46 oh Aug 01 04:11:54 same TZ as EricBlade Aug 01 04:12:58 damn near the same city Aug 01 04:23:06 * EricBlade whines, "i shouldn't have to learn completely new skills just to compile something. i've been doing this longer than some of the engineers that wrote it have been alive" Aug 01 04:23:55 http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/31/no-open-webos-support-for-existing-webos-devices-no-soup-for-yo/ anyone want to introduce Myriam Joire to a concept called "copyright" or "patents"? Aug 01 04:24:02 * rrix is out of popcorn :( Aug 01 04:25:38 rrix: i have one word for you: cimmunity Aug 01 04:26:04 HaDAk: Of course, but for people to expect HP to do what they thought that was just hilarious Aug 01 04:26:07 -that Aug 01 04:27:39 EricBlade, get used to it...its a "new" world order...:P Aug 01 04:28:41 * ka6sox remembers when Atari made computers... Aug 01 04:29:17 they stopped?! o.O Aug 01 04:33:41 as soon as i get this cross compilation thing working, i'm going to build open webos for my TI-99 Aug 01 04:33:57 hah! Aug 01 04:37:15 * HaDAk thinks this requires some sleep to ponder Aug 01 04:37:26 i'll ask around work tomorrow. Aug 01 04:37:34 i work in a building full of engineers. Aug 01 04:37:38 'night Aug 01 04:42:06 EricBlade, can you get it working on my CoCo? Aug 01 04:43:15 HP...I DEMAND support for my CoCo... Aug 01 04:43:17 :D Aug 01 04:43:19 only if it's a 3 Aug 01 04:46:05 it *is*....512kB of RAM too! Aug 01 04:47:24 that oughta be enough for anybody. Aug 01 04:48:01 naw...need another 128kB for that to be "true" Aug 01 06:01:51 Stskeeps, got time for a quick chat about mer + Luna? Aug 01 06:02:13 ka6sox: sure Aug 01 06:02:36 is this something that interests the mer project? Aug 01 06:02:59 naturally, i've mostly stood a bit and lurked here as it's important to build a community around the components you do have Aug 01 06:03:20 agreed Aug 01 06:03:38 what does mer use for its build basis? Aug 01 06:03:44 buildroot? something else? Aug 01 06:04:33 long story short, mer is a core, so it contains basic components and tools/systems surrounding it, so we have proper sdks, image creators, build farm software. to build it we use something called Open Build Service, which essentially schedules jobs, and runs them in a chroot or KVM. for cross compilation we do a combination of scratchbox2 and OBS Aug 01 06:04:47 let me show you a link or two Aug 01 06:05:02 kk..please. Aug 01 06:05:31 generally Mer doesnt' contain UIs or hardware adaptations, but people put them on top - like openwebos could sit above, just like others have Plasma Active, or our Nemo handset project, or some who use it for STB Aug 01 06:05:52 our aim is to provide 60fps for qml/html5 based systems with ease Aug 01 06:05:53 I'm sorry..STB? Aug 01 06:05:57 set top box Aug 01 06:06:02 oh right... Aug 01 06:06:28 https://build.ci.merproject.org/ , make an account and take a look at https://build.ci.merproject.org/project/monitor?project=Core%3Aarmv7l for example Aug 01 06:06:33 okay so that limits you to dual core type devices or ones that are focused on video performance. Aug 01 06:06:38 nop Aug 01 06:06:46 we have nice 60fps on single core devices Aug 01 06:07:27 generally, when you do non-android linux systems, you end up with the same kind of set of components anyway Aug 01 06:07:50 and you have to maintain the entire infrastructure around it - including expensive (when it comes to a community, time) talent to take care of the components/systems Aug 01 06:08:16 mer seeks to help that by having people work together on the parts where people mostly agree on anywaty Aug 01 06:08:29 providing security updates, tools, etc Aug 01 06:08:55 https://archive.fosdem.org/2012/schedule/event/391/79_beyond.pdf as well Aug 01 06:09:22 we're an active project with both commercial companies and open projects working side by side as they don't have to lift the burden on their own Aug 01 06:10:33 https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Community_Workspace is devices/demos we've done of mer + something on those devices Aug 01 06:10:34 okay, and where does this fit within the maemo/meego/tizen/whatevernextnameitis scheme? Aug 01 06:10:41 hehe Aug 01 06:12:11 tizen 1.0 is samsung linux platform, a horrible mishmash of debian packages. tizen 2.0 is based off meego 1.2 somewhere, with updates. mer is based off meego 1.3 as that's where we finished our work and started Mer.. Aug 01 06:12:16 maemo is dead as a doornail by now Aug 01 06:12:56 Stskeeps: relationship to Jolla? Aug 01 06:13:28 rwhitby: Jolla employs me and other contributors, which participate as individual contributors in the project. there's also other companies which have contributors involved as well Aug 01 06:13:41 governance wise jolla's just another vendor to us Aug 01 06:13:55 ok, good. Aug 01 06:14:33 Stskeeps: so your suggestion is to remove the kernel and drivers from the Open webOS equation, and just base it on a Mer core? Aug 01 06:14:34 https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Governance - in terms of ramp-up, i've dealt with some new contributors lately and they've been able to become basic useful contributors within 24 hours of ramp-up time Aug 01 06:14:51 rwhitby: my own belief is that hw adaptation should be seperate anyway, to ensure easy portability Aug 01 06:15:09 but i don't know how the roadmap looks for open webos, they're probably building a product, so a change like this may be invasive. Aug 01 06:15:33 but i don't see any reason why luna, etc, couldn't be put on top of mer. Aug 01 06:15:40 Stskeeps: has anyone at Mer done a compatibility analysis for what webOS expects from the Linux core and what Mer provides? Aug 01 06:16:15 rwhitby: generally we don't do that, people come to us and try to build on top. but i myself own a touchpad and have been investigating a bit about how the window sharing works, etc Aug 01 06:16:26 it's practically a mini-wayland in there Aug 01 06:18:03 rwhitby: besides that.. in Mer we employ a 'we don't fit all sizes' principle, so if people need to adjust parts of the core to fit their needs, like, use NetworkManager instead of ConnMan, or compile qt in a special way, we deliver tools to do this with ease Aug 01 06:18:08 Stskeeps: does Mer have an architecture/methodology for handling the proprietary userspace blobs in the multimedia stack? Aug 01 06:18:29 rwhitby: yes, gstreamer plugins, run-time replacement of GLESv2 libraries .. i mean, we have an entirely working handset with call audio working Aug 01 06:18:32 and on top of gles Aug 01 06:18:42 er, build-time replacement Aug 01 06:19:05 Mer doesn't contain hw adaptations, we intentionally seperate them out to let others deliver them, even communities Aug 01 06:19:39 so we can remain without licensing issues, but we do allow vendors to inject them into the images with ease Aug 01 06:20:07 are packages rpms? Aug 01 06:20:10 Stskeeps: does Mer do images releases to end consumers, and if so how do you handle non-redistributable vendor blobs? Aug 01 06:20:21 rwhitby: we don't do images to end users, vendors handle that themselves Aug 01 06:20:31 rwhitby: it's fairly easy to do for them, too Aug 01 06:20:41 ok, so they deal with Qualcomm to redistribute the drivers. Aug 01 06:20:50 yes, like it goes on in real product making Aug 01 06:21:14 generally, when i say vendors: mer isn't for end-users, it's strictly made as a service to vendors (which we define as companies doing a product, communities doing a product, or a lone hacker at home doing a build for his beagleboard) Aug 01 06:21:44 ka6sox: yes, they're rpms - this is historical and because we have working and polished tools for them.. i myself come from debian packaging and i've grown to like the way we do them Aug 01 06:21:50 Are there any external non-commercial communities that use Mer as a core, and if so how do they handle the proprietary driver redistribution issue? Aug 01 06:22:03 rwhitby: well, there's KDE's Plasma Active Aug 01 06:22:14 debs/rpms/ipks - all just different ways to do the same thing Aug 01 06:22:17 rwhitby: yep Aug 01 06:22:35 more important things to have religious wars over, like editors ;) Aug 01 06:22:47 he he Aug 01 06:23:26 9yrs and I still have to install VIM and EMACS on every machine Aug 01 06:23:36 and i think they managed to luck out with having redistributable drivers.. but in practice it's possible for anybody with an interest to set up SDK and make image of their own, using a driver repository behind a EULA'ed url Aug 01 06:24:04 i'm currently doing experiments on leveraging android graphics drivers within a glibc-based system, so far so good Aug 01 06:24:27 that is of interest to a lot of folk. Aug 01 06:24:52 yes, indeed. Aug 01 06:25:00 using my touchpad, naturally Aug 01 06:25:01 :P Aug 01 06:26:12 so how would I deal with A6 code that I have no right to redistribute and I have no idea of where I could find a EULA'd repo for that. Aug 01 06:26:33 well, you wouldn't even be able to redistribute the final image Aug 01 06:26:40 so you could provide instructions to make a local repository Aug 01 06:26:56 "joe user" won't be doing that Aug 01 06:26:58 sure Aug 01 06:27:18 but joe user wants to download a final, working image from you Aug 01 06:27:28 which he can't Aug 01 06:27:33 which he can't, due to you not being able to redistribute Aug 01 06:27:37 right Aug 01 06:27:54 so he'll need to create his own installable image somehow Aug 01 06:28:19 same deal in all distros really Aug 01 06:28:28 ya Aug 01 06:28:34 but worse with SoCs Aug 01 06:28:48 this is fwiw 'just' a problem for open projects, for companies it's less complicated as you can sign NDAs and pay licensing, etc Aug 01 06:29:05 for development, there's plenty of good-enough-redistributable boards/socs out there Aug 01 06:29:16 or do like we do in our handset project, use VirtualBox with llvmpipe Aug 01 06:29:24 60fps gles on many laptops Aug 01 06:29:51 the goal of 60fps is admirable...would make webOS and Luna look good. Aug 01 06:30:19 regarding rpm vs deb.. this is from one of my slides in the above PDF: personal top 5 disagreements seen in mobile linux: RPM vs Debian packages. Hardware adaptation, chipset politics and openness in those. UI choices and frameworks. Project openness and governance. Views originating from a misunderstanding that mobile is same as desktop. Aug 01 06:30:33 .. the only which of these customers care about is the experience Aug 01 06:31:04 i thought webos actually ran pretty nicely, was surprised when i got my touchpad Aug 01 06:31:29 did you get a firesale one? Aug 01 06:32:09 i got into a talk with swisstomcat over futuristic UI and he sent me one, thanks to him glibc based systems might still have a future in mobile as i got a adreno gpu chipset i could play with :) Aug 01 06:32:21 Stskeeps: yes, I read the PDF - good opinions expressed in it Aug 01 06:33:05 either way.. current webos: you have luna which is part compositor, part homescreen, which currently ties very heavily to architectural pieces of webos itself, libnapp, etc Aug 01 06:33:26 have you guys had it running on pure-qt yet, or? Aug 01 06:36:06 currently we only have the CE version running which is heavily tied into all that. Aug 01 06:36:08 also, you guys have the advantage that your application framework in practicality is portable, the enyo guys have done a good job in that area Aug 01 06:36:32 we can also run x11 apps in cards as well. Aug 01 06:37:31 :nod: Aug 01 06:37:54 just for good measure, i'm not here to push a solution on you, just explaining what we're all about :) Aug 01 06:38:04 not as pretty as Enyo Apps. Aug 01 06:38:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zg0NvSaXmY - a working homescreen made in qml with proper task switching, app launching, in 24 hours Aug 01 06:38:45 Stskeeps, I know...i asked you about this so I could understand what Mer is and how it might fit into a Luna/Enyo environment. Aug 01 06:38:48 :nod: Aug 01 06:39:19 since luna is Qt it seems like support should be there. Aug 01 06:39:20 well, all it takes is people trying to build the components on top of mer. personally i'd start with getting enyo environment working sanely first Aug 01 06:39:35 as that's what really matters, to keep the app framework going Aug 01 06:40:10 thats another dept as we say... Aug 01 06:40:18 :nod: Aug 01 06:40:49 they are doing a good job of promoting enyo and we like that. Aug 01 06:41:18 what version of Qt are you currently basing Mer off of? Aug 01 06:41:26 we have qt4.8.2 and qt5 alpha available Aug 01 06:41:49 CE and OWOS are 4.8.0 (well I know CE is) Aug 01 06:41:54 :nod: Aug 01 06:41:59 not much difference Aug 01 06:42:02 ya Aug 01 06:42:29 it's 4.8.0 in a QWS configuration or QPA? Aug 01 06:42:36 QPA Aug 01 06:43:13 ah, good, makes qt5 porting easier eventually Aug 01 06:43:33 good to hear Aug 01 06:45:42 is Quim still involved in anyway? Aug 01 06:45:55 quim's still around in qt but as you know, nokia situation is not good at all Aug 01 06:46:23 many good people who are looking for new jobs Aug 01 06:46:27 ya, thats why I asked...he came to SCaLE twice and I met him there. Aug 01 06:46:55 he's the reason i have a career within mobile linux, took me seriously when i came with ideas of an actual open maemo like platform many years ago Aug 01 06:47:41 ya he is a good guy...lets hope he stays employed or moves to a better place for him if he needs to. Aug 01 06:47:47 :nod: Aug 01 06:48:13 personally i think we might see him in boot2gecko, mozilla is after all in same area Aug 01 06:48:23 ah Aug 01 06:48:35 but that's just guesswork Aug 01 06:48:38 right Aug 01 06:49:19 9yrs ago I came to help edit some wikipages and now I am trying to herd cats on this project... Aug 01 06:49:35 all in "embedded linux" Aug 01 06:49:50 hehe, yeah Aug 01 06:51:22 I am most familiar with OpenEmbedded and then buildroot systems. Aug 01 06:51:49 but I am open to look @ other things too.. Aug 01 06:51:54 there is no perfect system. Aug 01 06:52:08 yeah - OBS is not perfect either for us, or rpm, but it gets the job done nicely Aug 01 06:52:40 I can see that. Aug 01 06:52:52 is OBS a project of its own? Aug 01 06:53:04 yes, it's actually opensuse's build farm software Aug 01 06:53:11 that works fine with other distros too Aug 01 06:53:13 ah, got it. Aug 01 06:53:26 I assume it knows about icecream? Aug 01 06:53:31 yeah Aug 01 06:53:35 nice Aug 01 06:53:37 we don't use icecream in our setup though, personally Aug 01 06:53:43 so it's multiple distributions that work to improve the same thing, instead of hacking up their own build systems in their garage Aug 01 06:54:09 build systems are a pain to maintain... Aug 01 06:54:38 do you build on HD's or in tmpfs? Aug 01 06:54:47 i build in tmpfs as it's just so much saner Aug 01 06:54:55 our infra budget is 300 eur/month and that's it Aug 01 06:54:55 no kidding Aug 01 06:55:06 wow... Aug 01 06:55:07 so it's a really acceptable price even to companies Aug 01 06:55:12 right Aug 01 06:55:30 http://www.hetzner.de/en/hosting/produkte_rootserver/ex5 Aug 01 06:55:33 we have a couple of these babies Aug 01 06:56:19 nice Aug 01 06:56:22 and build for armv6, armv7 hardfp/softfp, mips32, i486 and atom/ssse3 Aug 01 06:56:30 including continous integration checks on top Aug 01 06:56:55 one build system we have does something like 43 targets and about 1500 packages. Aug 01 06:57:09 mer's "just" 340 packages Aug 01 06:57:16 very intentionally such a low number Aug 01 06:57:19 as we can actually QA the thing Aug 01 06:57:21 so like oe-core Aug 01 06:57:46 ish, yeah, ~125 to make it self-hosting, rest is some dependencies and qt Aug 01 06:58:00 https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Architecture Aug 01 06:58:04 that system is actually for "optware" which uses /opt tree of a target to enhance functionality Aug 01 06:59:14 :nod: yeah, i've used optware Aug 01 06:59:49 Qt-WebKit...nice..Luna needs that Aug 01 07:01:34 this has been most helpful and instructive. Aug 01 07:01:54 np, feel free to hang out in our irc channel too, even just to lurk Aug 01 07:02:00 i'm learning a lot from here about webos, too, so :) Aug 01 07:02:31 thanks...I will, as I can...as you know sometimes you get overwhelmed with information. Aug 01 07:02:36 hehe Aug 01 07:02:53 i've been working as a nokia subcontractor, each time i came to offices, i went back out with information overload headaches :P Aug 01 07:03:20 ya, the proverbial "drink from the firehose" Aug 01 07:07:47 Stskeeps, i really want an N9... Aug 01 07:08:09 ka6sox: i like the n9 but the ui doesn't always lend me same kind of joy i had with n900 Aug 01 07:08:14 but i think i'm getting old Aug 01 07:08:14 :P Aug 01 07:08:36 I *am* Old. Aug 01 07:09:52 My son saw a Punch Card i was throwing out and asked what that was... Aug 01 07:26:10 lol Aug 01 07:26:19 you can't be that old Aug 01 07:26:30 I bet you are still younger than me and my girlie Aug 01 07:26:34 if you add us together... Aug 01 07:27:39 um...NO Aug 01 07:27:47 I am older Aug 01 07:27:49 how old are ya? Aug 01 07:27:53 cryptk: I bet ka6sox and I together are older than your grandma Aug 01 07:28:15 he he Aug 01 07:28:23 rwhitby, that's a pretty safe bet, you would only need to average like 35 each to do that Aug 01 07:28:45 if ka6sox is under 60 then the girlie and I have him beat Aug 01 07:29:02 not by much! Aug 01 07:29:12 I figured you were 50's Aug 01 07:30:06 I gotta say, after using other things that Luna/Enyo looks better and is smoother. Aug 01 07:30:15 yep Aug 01 07:30:21 but thats subjective Aug 01 07:30:30 I think bootstrap is the next closest in how much I like the different frameworks Aug 01 07:31:07 enyo being first, then bootstrap, then foundation Aug 01 07:31:20 thats all that new fangled OOP junk... Aug 01 07:31:40 but all 3 of them have features specific to them that I like Aug 01 07:31:54 like build systems Aug 01 07:32:01 I just like the sliding panes of enyo better than the boxes of bootstrap/foundation Aug 01 07:32:13 its all subjective Aug 01 07:32:23 and sadly, enyo is the one that I have the least experience with Aug 01 07:34:50 sadly my 10yr old knows more about Enyo than I ever will. Aug 01 07:35:15 but thats okay... Aug 01 07:37:28 rrix, looks like dukiedrew will be redoing his patches on saturday Aug 01 07:41:11 interesting: https://twitter.com/phxdevices/status/230565813030105088 Aug 01 07:41:48 quite Aug 01 08:00:05 folks Aug 01 08:00:10 hey ka6sox and rwhitby Aug 01 08:00:18 what do you think about today's code drop ? Aug 01 08:00:58 more pieces of the puzzle... Aug 01 08:01:02 but lacking context. Aug 01 08:07:59 yeah typical and expected Aug 01 08:08:17 was there going to be futher integration in a tree that can be compiled ? Aug 01 08:08:31 cyanogenmod kernels are pretty usable and capable Aug 01 08:08:43 lc\\\\\ Aug 01 08:08:49 aa]]][[ Aug 01 08:08:53 eh ? Aug 01 08:09:20 yes,there will be Aug 01 08:09:52 yeah Aug 01 08:10:10 has there been discussion on getting the webOS bits to run on those kernels ? Aug 01 08:10:21 it would make more sense than waiting for 3.5+ Aug 01 08:11:17 no Aug 01 08:11:58 well Aug 01 08:12:01 thats not true Aug 01 08:12:41 according to twitter jhauto is asking for kernel developers to upgrade the kernels on some devices. Aug 01 08:13:39 problem with that is that there were a lot of changes in Palm kernels Aug 01 08:13:44 some of it was pretty ugly Aug 01 08:14:03 if you don't have that git tree it's going to be difficult to track or forward port it Aug 01 08:14:28 are there many closed-source drivers in the webos kernel? Aug 01 08:14:34 you also have a lot of binary modules that'll need glue that can do external linking to make it ABI change immune Aug 01 08:14:42 bt, wireless Aug 01 08:14:49 touch sensor Aug 01 08:14:55 all of those are specialized Aug 01 08:15:15 gesture handling is in userspace so that had some kind of kernel changes associated with that Aug 01 08:15:17 how was it possible to run android on tp without those drives? Aug 01 08:15:31 they use their own drivers Aug 01 08:15:36 for better or worse Aug 01 08:16:27 LunohoD, they use drivers from other APQ8060 devices Aug 01 08:16:33 or 70XX devices Aug 01 08:17:29 bhuey, on twitter look up "warthogkernel" Aug 01 08:17:47 he is asking for help on forward porting things to later kernels. Aug 01 08:25:17 am I missing something or is there no openssl098e devel package? Aug 01 08:26:41 they just need 2.6.38 and it'll be done for TP Aug 01 08:27:01 the futex implementation is borked on those devices btw Aug 01 08:27:11 you can probably get away with just activating a single cre Aug 01 08:27:12 core Aug 01 08:27:20 nm, turns out my problem lies elsewhere :( Aug 01 08:27:33 most of webOS is single threaded anyways Aug 01 08:27:44 lol, oops, wrong channel Aug 01 08:32:17 I noticed that unless you were doing a multi-media thing the 2ond core was shut OFF... Aug 01 08:32:28 and may come on for brief periods. Aug 01 08:32:31 and forward porting to a newer kernels isn't going to give as big a gains as say moving to a newer browers kit Aug 01 08:33:01 the problem with the 2.6.35 release was that it can't support multithreading safely Aug 01 08:33:08 the futex implementation is broken Aug 01 08:33:45 so they're just playing with probablistic crashes but the system is so crude that rare triggers those crashes or the bugs aren't immediately visible Aug 01 08:34:01 2.6.35 was on the cusp of fixing a lot of subsystems. Aug 01 08:34:06 moving to 2.6.38 is non-trivial even with the ghit repo Aug 01 08:34:08 but wasn't there yet. Aug 01 08:34:21 2.6.38 should be the last kernel for TP Aug 01 08:34:28 if that kernel ever gets running on it Aug 01 08:35:09 it will probably have some process above it do uname -a and refuse to start. Aug 01 08:35:25 or maybe a driver issue Aug 01 08:35:39 most folks aren't setup for kernel development in the greater community Aug 01 08:36:00 or know to do it Aug 01 08:36:09 it is not trivial Aug 01 08:36:20 so moving to an Android kernel isn't a bad idea Aug 01 08:36:37 but those Palm specific layer will have to be rewritten for that kernel Aug 01 08:36:57 thats what Nyx was supposed to abstract out. Aug 01 08:37:07 hard to say what needs to be changed and that should be mapped out in a design doc Aug 01 08:37:13 Nyx is vaporware Aug 01 08:37:21 not really Aug 01 08:37:25 anymore Aug 01 08:37:35 oh crud...I gotta be up in 4.5hrs... Aug 01 08:37:44 I'll see what they've done Aug 01 08:37:51 but I doubt much has changed Aug 01 08:46:55 * bhuey looked at nyx and still has the same view Aug 01 08:50:28 morning guys Aug 01 08:51:07 has anyone had a look through the conf folder on the new LSM? Aug 01 08:53:23 and seen luna-pyramid.conf? Aug 01 09:00:17 interestingly it seems to possess the same specs as the HTC Sensation... (which was also known as the Pyramid) Aug 01 09:03:55 nice eh? Aug 01 09:05:16 indeed. So can we say that at least they've tried one device internally? ;) Aug 01 11:06:44 I got it1 Aug 01 11:40:04 * rwhitby bbt Aug 01 13:44:24 morning all Aug 01 14:37:17 i don't recall seeing the "loadable-frameworks" repo yesterday Aug 01 14:45:17 yeah, me either Aug 01 14:50:45 I noticed earlier that the core apps readme has a 'these are for information purposes only' bit in it Aug 01 14:51:16 which makes me wonder if they do plan to rewrite the core stuff in enyo2 Aug 01 15:10:02 * HaDAk|work|away sighs Aug 01 15:19:50 what's up HaDAk? Aug 01 15:22:03 http://gigaom.com/mobile/fcc-tells-verizon-you-cant-block-tethering-apps-verizon-settles-for-1-25m/ Aug 01 15:22:30 a $1.25M slap on the wrist too. Aug 01 15:22:46 compared to the 100's of millions they overcharged. Aug 01 15:27:22 someone (Isandunk) suggesting luna-pyramid.conf refers to HTC Sensation (code-named HTC Pyramid) Aug 01 15:31:46 ka6sox, at least they forced the policy to be changed going forward :) Aug 01 15:33:02 till the lawyers figure a way around this. Aug 01 15:33:57 and it *only* affects VZW, on those frequencies, with those plans... Aug 01 15:34:04 simple solution...don't offer the plan. Aug 01 15:34:19 and force others off the old plan with "upgrades" Aug 01 15:35:55 * ka6sox is well aware of carrier games Aug 01 15:38:19 "Pray I do not alter the deal further" Aug 01 15:54:22 hmm. someone points out on the forums that it looks like hp might've had luna running on the HTC Sensation Aug 01 15:55:47 i'm quite glad the UK carriers aren't quite so evil Aug 01 15:55:56 though they're still evil Aug 01 15:56:30 http://forums.webosnation.com/3341820-post38.html Aug 01 16:09:43 interesting, and that reference is from Nyx you say? Aug 01 16:09:57 he said it's from the new luna Aug 01 16:11:28 it does seem to resemble the windsor, but i guess you could say that about anything that's flat black with curves Aug 01 16:14:43 whats the specs on a Sensation? Aug 01 16:16:07 Ooops found my package....off to the holding point Aug 01 16:16:07 bbl Aug 01 16:17:08 curious, has anyone in here used this with their webos devices? http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ Aug 01 16:17:34 4.3in 540x960 display, 1gig storage, 768mb ram, , 8mp camera, 1080p recording, 1.2Ghz dual core Scorpion, adrena 220 Aug 01 16:19:21 RagingMind: i haven't but it probably sucks given that your upping 3volts to 5volts, and you don't have a whole lot of mA to go around .. it'd work better with 4AA Aug 01 16:22:06 apparently it's about 80% efficiency and 4AAs supply too much voltage for the chip. though what I'm planning is 4 NiMH AAs and that they say is fine http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/power.html Aug 01 16:25:55 my worry is that there's extra stuff for the USB data lines to get iPhones to charge and I'm not sure how my Pre+ or Pre3 would handle that Aug 01 16:30:31 you may want to investigate electronic cigarette battery technology, i'm not sure what the current ratings are on some of those, but there are a lot of 6v batteries involved with that stuff Aug 01 16:31:00 or adjustable outputs Aug 01 16:31:20 most e-cigs are 3v, but a lot of custom mods to make 4.5 or 6v units Aug 01 16:34:03 I already have a bunch of AA NiMH cells lying around Aug 01 16:38:42 run with it, then. Aug 01 17:15:44 morning morphis Aug 01 17:16:16 EricBlade: sounds like sensation is using similar SoC to touchpad then? interesting Aug 01 17:20:07 ka6sox: good evening :) Aug 01 17:20:53 morphis, wrong Aug 01 17:20:55 ~ugt Aug 01 17:20:55 well, ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Aug 01 17:21:46 morphis: hey. been a long time! last time I talked to you, you were trying to take palm pre's and run other linux stuff on them Aug 01 17:21:57 destinal: yeah, long time ago :) Aug 01 17:22:15 destinal: we final had something usable on the Palm Pre Aug 01 17:22:21 s/final/finally/ Aug 01 17:22:21 morphis meant: destinal: we finally had something usable on the Palm Pre Aug 01 17:24:52 scoutcamper: good to know :) Aug 01 17:25:15 :D Aug 01 17:58:02 how goes people Aug 01 18:01:10 it goes Aug 01 18:08:40 ~lart WoceBot Aug 01 18:08:40 * WoceBot grabs a large, mis-shapened log, with squirrels, and beats ka6sox until only the nuts remain ... which the squirrels run off with Aug 01 18:08:52 :P Aug 01 18:09:02 bad bot Aug 01 18:09:03 there we go Aug 01 18:52:56 morphis: finally had something useable on the palm pre and then they stopped making them, eh? Aug 01 18:53:06 :) Aug 01 18:53:07 frustrating Aug 01 18:53:12 really Aug 01 18:53:23 but I am looking forward Aug 01 18:53:33 there will be interesting times with open webos Aug 01 18:53:54 morphis: yeah well you guys were trying to get a capable open source OS going and now webOS becomes one, so that's another interesting twist Aug 01 18:54:55 IMO webos is still way more hacker friendly than android. not just because I hate java :) Aug 01 18:55:46 destinal: for sure Aug 01 18:55:51 thats why I really like webOS Aug 01 18:55:59 and it's user interface is still amazing Aug 01 18:56:04 a lot better than android Aug 01 18:56:16 (using android everyday now on my nexus s ...) Aug 01 18:57:02 yes. oh btw what happened to all the phones with keyboards? Aug 01 18:57:20 that was one nice thing palm / hp was still doing Aug 01 18:57:25 yes Aug 01 18:57:29 they are gone Aug 01 18:57:42 everyone likes to have a virtual keyboard theses days Aug 01 19:24:11 I don't like VKBs much Aug 01 19:26:26 having trouble with one? Aug 01 19:26:46 the only reason I'm considering a smart phone that doesn't have a physical keyboard is because it's one of the few ruggedized ones (water/shock resistant) Aug 01 19:32:07 ShiftyAxel, pfat phingers Aug 01 19:48:51 i like vkbs only if they're swype. Aug 01 19:48:56 also, we need swype. Aug 01 19:52:50 swype-esque functionality would be cool Aug 01 19:53:04 also we need some kind of card exposé feature Aug 01 19:53:26 I wanna watch both my irc cards at once when they're minimized Aug 01 19:56:24 expose? isn't that just swiping up? (mine seem to update in that staet) Aug 01 19:59:36 irc cards stack Aug 01 19:59:42 so you can't see the bottom one Aug 01 20:00:23 at least with wIRC Aug 01 20:01:10 dwc-: think osx expose, sorta Aug 01 20:01:43 and you can unstack them, but I want two unstacked cards (at least) fully visible at once Aug 01 20:01:54 sssssh...we don't want the Apple Police coming after us :P Aug 01 20:02:17 well, at that size it's too small to read anyways Aug 01 20:02:31 but I can see whether there's activity, as long as the webos scroller works :) Aug 01 20:02:57 two by two, hands of granny smith D: Aug 01 20:07:58 heh Aug 01 21:01:10 * LarrySteeze|TP stumbles into the room Aug 01 21:05:10 folks Aug 01 21:05:11 lwi LarrySteeze|TP Aug 01 21:05:21 *hi LarrySteeze|TP Aug 01 21:05:26 i think i found it guys .. http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/hilarious-random-photos-20.jpg Aug 01 21:05:29 I was going to say...wasn't familiar with that one :D Aug 01 21:05:35 it's the webos printer Aug 01 21:05:35 what's up dwc- Aug 01 21:06:09 problems typing, not drunk Aug 01 21:07:05 heh Aug 01 21:07:20 I finally learned about /srv/share Aug 01 21:07:36 figured I should document it on the wiki since it caused me so much frustration before Aug 01 21:07:51 save some other poor soul from it Aug 01 21:13:55 You know, sometimes you need one bad day (yesterday for me) to make the rest of the days better. Aug 01 21:14:17 Everything seems to be coming to light for me with this today. I'm even not mad at vagrant! Aug 01 21:14:33 at least if it decides to boot today :D Aug 01 21:15:01 it won't Aug 01 21:15:13 heh...because I jinxed myself? Aug 01 21:15:38 * EricBlade shrug Aug 01 21:36:29 hey hadak i'll be at the poker room tonight Aug 01 21:53:32 no kiddin? Aug 01 21:53:36 i'll be up at zingermans Aug 01 21:53:55 i might have to drop in Aug 01 22:29:40 weeee Aug 01 22:30:31 * LarrySteeze|TP jumps on EricBlade-TP's roller coaster Aug 01 22:38:48 * EricBlade-TP hanging at the poker room i work at one night a week, waiting for players to arrive. weeee. Aug 01 23:02:37 scoutcamper|away, ShiftyAxel, and bigbluehat: any reason (besides breaking windows compatibility) the VM does not use NFS? Also could be called: Do you care if we break windows compatibility since we aren't supporting windows anyway? Aug 01 23:02:43 also for scoutcamper Aug 01 23:03:10 I imagine ka6sox has an opinion on this too ;) Aug 01 23:04:02 I asked him in PM, he directed me to you three :P Aug 01 23:07:24 ah Aug 01 23:07:37 well I have no great love for windows myself :p Aug 01 23:08:05 we need to be nice to our Windows using bretheren Aug 01 23:08:13 I mean anyone reading the wiki isn't going to think it supports windows anyway Aug 01 23:08:29 hey ka6sox Aug 01 23:08:44 and any documentation regarding dev work between webos-ports OR wosi has pretty much pointed everyone to ubuntu as it is Aug 01 23:08:59 even metadoctor Aug 01 23:12:44 bhuey Aug 01 23:49:09 anyone else around? Aug 01 23:50:26 no Aug 01 23:50:43 I'm here...how can I help? Aug 02 00:00:25 to bring NFS back up... Aug 02 00:00:40 how many people are using windows, out of curiousity? Aug 02 00:03:33 * ShiftyAxel dodges a tumbleweed Aug 02 00:03:37 not i Aug 02 00:04:48 I'd say a compromise would be in order Aug 02 00:05:35 either add instructions to the wiki page on how to enable NFS in a non-windows environment, ship two versions of the Vagrantfile, or ship it with NFS as default and add an additional setup step to disable it for windows users Aug 02 00:08:21 since windows is the 'least supported' platform, I'd lean toward option #3 Aug 02 00:09:19 i use winders Aug 02 00:09:24 I'd honestly be okay with #1 or #3 Aug 02 00:09:40 but i dont use the woce vm Aug 02 00:09:43 EricBlade-TP: do you use windows for dev and build? Aug 02 00:10:08 i build in a ubuntu vm Aug 02 00:10:44 i do c dev in visual studio tho Aug 02 00:10:57 makes sense Aug 02 00:12:00 im not a huge vs fan but i am slightly familiar with it. i should probably see how good komodo is for c since thats what i use everywhede else but unreal Aug 02 00:12:27 you familiar with vi? Aug 02 00:12:30 but vs's search functions are definitely better than komodo Aug 02 00:12:40 i know enough vi to work in it Aug 02 00:12:46 althoug it dos Aug 02 00:12:53 doesnt act right in my vm Aug 02 00:12:57 c in komodo is like c in vi Aug 02 00:14:15 aside from search and highlighting vs doesnt seem to do anything special much either. might be how the code is laid out though Aug 02 00:14:57 I'm not saying anything against vs...I learned c on vs5 Aug 02 00:15:42 but for the most part, in my opinion, a platform is a platform Aug 02 00:16:51 I found myself switching from cs to vim, then vim to komodo, then I just used whatever was available on whatever machine I was using Aug 02 00:17:16 *vs Aug 02 00:26:57 hello halfhalo Aug 02 01:13:14 anyone heard from cryptk|offline lately? Aug 02 01:21:14 i really dont have any features that keep me loyal to komodo other than it has a font setup and color scheme that doesnt hurt Aug 02 01:21:59 its new node.js intellisense might be nice if i did more work in node without palm stuff Aug 02 01:23:17 heh Aug 02 01:23:18 vi/vim and vs are similar Aug 02 01:24:12 They are? Aug 02 01:25:28 o.O Aug 02 01:41:59 gah, wirc + irc bouncing = problems Aug 02 01:46:32 I'm off to get some shuteye, nn all Aug 02 01:47:04 nn ShiftyAxel Aug 02 02:34:27 yawn Aug 02 02:41:12 Derek going to Sunnyvale for enyothan, maybe he will get some answers Aug 02 02:57:09 webosnations derek? Aug 02 02:59:26 yes **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Aug 02 02:59:59 2012