**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 04 02:59:57 2009
Nov 04 03:00:24 <jjlucsy> hey haeffb, in your opinion, should editting a task be done in a separate card, or part of the scene stack?
Nov 04 03:01:16 * bryanroth raises his hand
Nov 04 03:01:39 * jjlucsy gives to floor to bryanroth
Nov 04 03:01:56 <bryanroth> lol
Nov 04 03:02:24 * haeffb hates new cards unless absolutely necessary
Nov 04 03:02:47 * bryanroth likes new cards
Nov 04 03:03:02 * bryanroth but agrees with haeffb
Nov 04 03:03:06 <jjlucsy> Hmm, maybe a preference then.
Nov 04 03:03:13 <haeffb> seems we have a difference of opinion. I vote for dueling cpu's
Nov 04 03:03:38 * haeffb has a pre that looks like it's hung importing 7 years of fuel data.
Nov 04 03:03:52 <jjlucsy> I already have a preference for showing or hiding a "back" button.
Nov 04 03:04:54 <jjlucsy> Since I allow for landscape, kinda hard to swipe back without an onscreen button.
Nov 04 03:05:48 <jjlucsy> I suppose I should have an option for locking it out of rotation too.
Nov 04 03:06:59 <haeffb> I think the concept is if you'll have a need to edit more than one task at a time... like you may create more than one email at a time, so the email app gives you a new card.
Nov 04 03:07:21 <haeffb> don't see a need for ability to edit more than one task at a time...
Nov 04 03:09:40 <jjlucsy> I think you're right. Its currently the way it works. I played with it briefly early on and it didn't seem to really solve anything.
Nov 04 03:11:01 <jjlucsy> Well, it looks like I have delete working (except for folders and contexts). Now on to making new task work correctly.
Nov 04 03:14:20 <pandora--> have you guys figured out how to make a button "gray out" ?
Nov 04 03:14:26 <pandora--> so the user can't click twice
Nov 04 03:15:46 <jjlucsy> pandora, the model for the button should have a disabled property, simpy set it to true and tell the scene the model is updated
Nov 04 03:16:03 <haeffb> or use a scrim/spinner on the scene?
Nov 04 03:16:36 <pandora--> jjlucsy: ah
Nov 04 03:16:56 <jjlucsy> a scrim would work to, depnds on what you're doing
Nov 04 03:17:08 <pandora--> nah, just want it disabled
Nov 04 03:17:30 <jjlucsy> http://developer.palm.com/palm-sdk/jsdoc/symbols/Mojo.Widget.html#.Button
Nov 04 03:25:26 <rick_home> I hate undocumented API's.
Nov 04 03:26:10 <worthb> hello there
Nov 04 03:26:29 <jjlucsy> Well, getting new working was anti-climatic. I must have the infrastructure right since it "just worked".
Nov 04 03:26:49 <Dave__> getting 'new' working?
Nov 04 03:27:12 <rick_home> new what?
Nov 04 03:27:13 <jjlucsy> I got "New Task" working in a task management app.
Nov 04 03:27:20 <rick_home> ahhh
Nov 04 03:27:22 <rick_home> congrats
Nov 04 03:28:06 <rick_home> I figured out how the return object works and what it means in the photo picker api when you ask for it to clip a photo.
Nov 04 03:28:08 <jjlucsy> thanks.
Nov 04 03:28:46 <rick_home> which was 'odd"
Nov 04 03:29:00 <rick_home> and "annoying'   since the return object is UTTERLY undocumented.
Nov 04 03:29:58 <rick_home> anyone from Palm on channel tonight?
Nov 04 03:31:29 <ElVox> wow i just think i found a bug in webos
Nov 04 03:31:31 <Dave__> whats the path to where photos are stored?
Nov 04 03:32:26 <rick_home> why?
Nov 04 03:32:35 <rick_home> ElVox:   what?
Nov 04 03:32:44 <rick_home> Dave__:   it's in /media/internal
Nov 04 03:32:48 <rick_home> DCIM somthing
Nov 04 03:32:50 <rick_home> why ?
Nov 04 03:33:24 <ElVox> if you go to: http://stackulator.com/beta/dumphead.php you should see "Method: GET" followed by "Method: POST"...the first method is what was used to fetch the page with your browser and the second method is what jQuery used to fetch the page (i tell jquery to fetch the page with POST)
Nov 04 03:33:50 <pandora--> jjlucsy: this.myButtonModel.disabled = true; <-- should do it right??
Nov 04 03:34:04 <ElVox> ...that is how it is supposed to work, but if I go to that page in the Pre's browser I get two GETs
Nov 04 03:34:50 <rick_home> well, you certainly CAN post from the browser
Nov 04 03:34:56 <rick_home> but I know nothing about jquery
Nov 04 03:35:23 <jjlucsy> pandora, think so, followed by: this.controller.modelChanged( this.myButtonModel, this );
Nov 04 03:35:33 <pandora--> ah. thats what i was missing
Nov 04 03:35:40 <pandora--> dum
Nov 04 03:37:10 <pandora--> jjlucsy: that worked, thanks
Nov 04 03:37:46 <jjlucsy> no problem
Nov 04 03:40:29 <ElVox> so far every browser (ie, ff, chrome, safari) on my computer returns GET and then POST but I can't get webOS to "POST"when called from javascript (not using prototype either)
Nov 04 03:40:46 <ElVox> i just updated the script to use prototype instead btw...same issue
Nov 04 03:41:50 <sugardave> ElVox: I can guarantee that POST works
Nov 04 03:41:52 <Dave__> is anyone on bell? i want to confirm whether all internet connections go through a proxy
Nov 04 03:42:03 <pandora--> <sprint
Nov 04 03:45:46 <haeffb> jjlucsy: FYI 273 unique users of TaskAdder, 4908 tokens.
Nov 04 03:46:59 <ElVox> you can't guarantee that because POST isn't working correctly here. I have the simplest possible test case. The test works as expected everywhere except on the emulator's browser. I am even using the prototype lib included with the PalmSDK
Nov 04 03:47:03 <jjlucsy> hey, spiffy
Nov 04 03:47:57 <sugardave> take a look at that Cloud:MySQL -> PHP -> JSON -> Mojo via Ajax POST article on webos101 I linked earlier
Nov 04 03:48:01 <sugardave> POST works
Nov 04 03:54:54 <rick_home> ElVox:   I will agree with both you and dave
Nov 04 03:55:01 <rick_home> Post doesn't work when called the way you're calling it
Nov 04 03:55:07 <rick_home> Post works fine when called in other ways.
Nov 04 03:55:20 <rick_home> Since we post all the time in our commercial app we're writing
Nov 04 03:55:36 <rick_home> I don't know what you're doing different, but it works for me.  See the article Dave pointed you at.
Nov 04 03:56:16 <Dave__> thanks rick_h_
Nov 04 03:57:55 <ElVox> i call it the same way as that article (which doesn't even require POST to function to work - it never checks)
Nov 04 03:58:32 <ElVox> http://pastebin.org/50710
Nov 04 03:59:17 <sugardave> actually, the PHP is what checks to make sure the request is coming in as a POST in my example...that may be because I'm a n00b
Nov 04 03:59:46 <rick_home> and trust me on this,  our PHP does not allow data modifications on gets.
Nov 04 04:00:07 <rick_home> When we accept data to modify structures on the server, it _HAS_ to come via a post  not a get.
Nov 04 04:00:10 <rick_home> Every freaking time.
Nov 04 04:00:13 <rick_home> And it does.
Nov 04 04:01:05 <rick_home> and since we're doing bi-directional syncing to the server, the post is coming from a programatic ajax call, not from a form submission.
Nov 04 04:01:54 <jjlucsy> Well, i think its quiting time for me. Night all.
Nov 04 04:09:08 * sugardave does not know how to call a method of a Mojo widget.  "How sad."
Nov 04 04:10:06 <ElVox> you keep telling me that "it works" but if you can't find anything wrong in the 10 lines of javascript in the paste then it is pretty obvious that the browser is doing something "wrong"
Nov 04 04:10:38 <ElVox> rick, note that i am not talking about webos apps just a regular web page loaded up in the browser
Nov 04 04:13:31 <_droO> [23:01] <fn'rick_home> and since we're doing bi-directional syncing to the server, the post is coming from a programatic ajax call, not from a form submission.
Nov 04 04:13:35 <_droO> then how are you doing this ;o
Nov 04 04:13:59 <rick_home> ok
Nov 04 04:14:04 <rick_home> so, the browser is broken
Nov 04 04:14:06 <rick_home> got it
Nov 04 04:14:13 <rick_home> the browser is broken in a lot of interesting ways.
Nov 04 04:14:22 <_droO> so it doesnt work then?
Nov 04 04:14:26 <rick_home> for example, mojo apps display animated gifs.
Nov 04 04:14:30 <rick_home> the browser doesn't
Nov 04 04:14:33 <_droO> im just trying to do exactly what you're trying to say you're doing
Nov 04 04:14:36 <_droO> and having problems
Nov 04 04:14:43 <rick_home> the browser and mojo are using different instantiations of webkit
Nov 04 04:14:45 <_droO> cause server forces post
Nov 04 04:14:57 <_droO> i cant sent get requests
Nov 04 04:15:14 <rick_home> I have done no experimentation with the browser on submitting forms.  but I know there is a patch for the browser to support forms submission
Nov 04 04:15:31 <sugardave> _droO: your problem is that you have to set the referer header, but you can't do that on XmlHttpRequest objects, I think
Nov 04 04:16:01 <_droO> you can with get requests :/ but not post?
Nov 04 04:16:01 <Dave__> sorry if this isn't really related to what you guys are talking about, but i'm trying to ssh to my phone and i've already configed it for EVDO during the optware install. Re-installing optware doesn't give me a chance to re-config the ssh setup
Nov 04 04:16:42 <sugardave> _droO: hang on a second...
Nov 04 04:16:44 <ElVox> oh! hey rick, is the "id" of your application the same as the domain to which you are sending POST requests? (well backwards but still)
Nov 04 04:17:28 <_droO> http://gitorious.org/webos-internals/bootstrap/blobs/master/optware-bootstrap.sh
Nov 04 04:17:40 <_droO> ^ dave
Nov 04 04:18:25 <ElVox> i just thought that palm might be using the application's "id"  as a sort of "domain name" to filter or restrict cross-domain requests
Nov 04 04:18:27 <_droO> er wrong chan
Nov 04 04:18:28 <_droO> ;o
Nov 04 04:18:53 <ElVox> so application can only "phone home"
Nov 04 04:19:23 <_droO> really?
Nov 04 04:19:25 <_droO> ;o
Nov 04 04:19:34 <sugardave> okay, I have to stop helping because I've only been doing webOS apps, not browser stuff...don't know the first thing about it
Nov 04 04:19:50 <sugardave> in webOS apps, I can POST to different hosts of my choosing all day
Nov 04 04:19:53 <_droO> well this is a post request from within a webos app;o
Nov 04 04:20:34 <sugardave> then my guess is still that setting the referer is blocked by policy, sort of like what I found here
Nov 04 04:20:39 <sugardave> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1268673/set-request-header-in-javascript
Nov 04 04:20:56 <ElVox> sugardave, i can't :( i can't even post to my own server using Ajax.Request...I keep getting a request method called "OPTIONS" instead
Nov 04 04:21:23 <sugardave> ElVox: but you are using the browser and not an app?:
Nov 04 04:22:03 <ElVox> no that was a test app that nothing more than tried to connect to a site using POST
Nov 04 04:22:52 <sugardave> ElVox: that's really weird
Nov 04 04:23:05 <sugardave> I've only ever tried to use POST
Nov 04 04:24:10 <ElVox> it is really frustrating me because it should work but doesn't and i hate it when things don't do as they are told!
Nov 04 04:24:58 <sugardave> ElVox: is your test app posting to a site that you control?
Nov 04 04:25:06 <ElVox> yes
Nov 04 04:26:43 <sugardave> just for the hell of it, did you try to set up the same php/mojo example I have and a test db for it?
Nov 04 04:30:22 <sugardave> who in the channel can tell me about WebView widgets and how to use the mysterious 'openUrl' method?
Nov 04 04:31:41 <rick_home> a widget I have been assiduously avoiding
Nov 04 04:31:51 <sugardave> lame :(
Nov 04 04:32:05 <sugardave> I at least got it to load an initial url
Nov 04 04:32:11 <sugardave> far better than I was getting yesterday
Nov 04 04:32:16 <rick_home> congrats
Nov 04 04:32:43 <rick_home> I beat my head on the photo picker api for the entire day before I figured out how the clip object return worked.
Nov 04 04:32:47 <rick_home> Lots and Lots of math.
Nov 04 04:32:52 <sugardave> nice
Nov 04 04:33:08 <sugardave> hey, can you answer a probably stupid question?  HOW do you call methods of widgets?
Nov 04 04:33:24 <rick_home> the idiot thing,  returns an object with the real width and height of your object
Nov 04 04:33:27 <sugardave> I've tried: this.controller.get('id').mojo.openUrl(url)
Nov 04 04:33:44 <rick_home> and with the scale you chose from the pinch-spread  as an integer percentage
Nov 04 04:34:11 <rick_home> but then,  it returns the CENTER of the clipping box as and x and y PERCENTAGE INTO YOUR IMAGE
Nov 04 04:34:40 <sugardave> okay, that's weird
Nov 04 04:34:40 <rick_home> so,  calculating where to put the top and left of the image to get the piece you want to clip to show through the clipping frame is "non trivial math."
Nov 04 04:34:50 <sugardave> I'll say
Nov 04 04:35:04 <rick_home> since it depends on the width of the clipping frame, the height of the clipping frame, etc etc etc.
Nov 04 04:35:12 <rick_home> but it -does- work once you figure the math out
Nov 04 04:37:01 <sugardave> rick_home: did you see my question ^^^^^  ?
Nov 04 04:37:29 <rick_home> how do you call methods of widgets?
Nov 04 04:37:32 <sugardave> yes
Nov 04 04:37:43 <rick_home> how did you instantiate the widget?
Nov 04 04:38:05 <sugardave> with this.controller.setupWidget(...);
Nov 04 04:38:19 <sugardave> oh
Nov 04 04:38:21 <sugardave> shit
Nov 04 04:38:30 <sugardave> this.controller.get just returns DOM elements, yes?
Nov 04 04:40:18 <sugardave> no wait, this.controller.get('id').mojo is used in the ready function....hmmmm....
Nov 04 04:43:01 <rick_home> well
Nov 04 04:43:26 <rick_home> I've never tried to do that
Nov 04 04:43:27 <rick_home> uh
Nov 04 04:43:43 <rick_home> mywidget = this.controller.setupWidget(/...)
Nov 04 04:43:48 <rick_home> and then mywidget.method?
Nov 04 04:43:51 <rick_home> but I doubt it
Nov 04 04:44:19 <sugardave> I will try that in a minute, first I'm going with the "change the model, update the scene" method and see what that does
Nov 04 04:44:29 <sugardave> but I'm not hopeful
Nov 04 04:45:34 <ElVox> i figured it out
Nov 04 04:45:36 <ElVox> lol
Nov 04 04:45:48 <ElVox> you can't send empty posts!
Nov 04 04:45:55 <sugardave> heh
Nov 04 04:46:14 <_droO> really?
Nov 04 04:46:19 <ElVox> it needs some data stuffed into "parameters:{}" or it never actually tries to post :D
Nov 04 04:46:27 <_droO> omg
Nov 04 04:46:31 <sugardave> 'parameters' FTW
Nov 04 04:46:46 <pandora--> lol
Nov 04 04:53:27 <ElVox> wow, i can't believe it was something like that. thanks rick and dave for not giving up on me :D
Nov 04 04:54:23 <ElVox> i bet there is a Palm developer somewhere who thought "...but who would ever want to send an empty post..."
Nov 04 05:12:32 <sugardave> omg I'm an idiot
Nov 04 05:12:39 <sugardave> it's openURL
Nov 04 05:12:46 <sugardave> case is important
Nov 04 05:17:10 <pandora--> woohoo. i have a help screen!
Nov 04 05:17:20 <pandora--> i think i'm "checklist" compliant now
Nov 04 05:18:17 * sugardave cheers pandora-- on!
Nov 04 05:18:33 <pandora--> hah
Nov 04 05:21:42 <Dave__> anyone know of a good ebook reader in dev?
Nov 04 05:21:53 <ElVox> if your help screen only says, "Dave? What are you doing Dave?" does that count towards the checklist?
Nov 04 05:21:56 <pandora--> Dave__: for pre?
Nov 04 05:22:01 <Dave__> yea
Nov 04 05:22:26 <pandora--> Dave__: it comes with a PDF reader out of the box, thats most "ebooks" out there :)
Nov 04 05:22:35 <Dave__> that pdf reader sucks
Nov 04 05:22:44 <pandora--> heh
Nov 04 05:23:24 <Dave__> to read anything you have to zoom
Nov 04 05:23:30 <Dave__> then you have to pan left and right as well as up and down
Nov 04 05:23:38 <Dave__> pdf is a crappy format
Nov 04 05:24:01 <pandora--> i'd expect the same on any ebook reader on a device with a 4" screen
Nov 04 05:24:07 <pandora--> or 3"
Nov 04 05:24:21 <Dave__> nah i read on my palm T fine
Nov 04 05:24:30 <pandora--> blech
Nov 04 05:24:36 <Dave__> it wraps the text and works well
Nov 04 05:24:53 <Dave__> i read on my HTC mogul too
Nov 04 05:24:59 <pandora--> maybe i'm spoiled, i have a sony ebook reader
Nov 04 05:25:22 <Dave__> i dont want multiple devices
Nov 04 05:25:58 <pandora--> you already have them :)
Nov 04 05:26:25 <Dave__> yah bought the pre hoping i wouldnt need to dust off the T
Nov 04 05:27:10 <Dave__> its nice to have a few books on the phone in the event you get stuck somewhere you know
Nov 04 05:32:51 <ElVox> you should always have a copy of "How to survive the robot uprising" with you...just in cas
Nov 04 06:17:56 <datafirm> hello!
Nov 04 06:18:43 <rick_home> hello
Nov 04 08:08:15 <datafirm> No access to document.evaluate or xpath in webOS webkit?
Nov 04 08:56:01 <datafirm> does webOS/webkit support document.evaluate
Nov 04 08:56:16 <MetaView> <-- no clue
Nov 04 09:04:27 <datafirm> trying to parse xml with xpath
Nov 04 09:04:41 <datafirm> assume this would be faster than search a json object
Nov 04 09:11:08 <MetaView> hm, why should it be faster?
Nov 04 09:11:20 <MetaView> xml takes more traffic, space etc
Nov 04 09:46:59 <sepi> Hi. I'm writing a game and would like to deactivate it's update timer when it it deactivated (minimized). Somehow though the deactivate method of the game assistant does not get called every time and its this object is empty
Nov 04 09:47:10 <sepi> Any idea what's wrong?
Nov 04 12:00:21 <hcatlin> did the last webos update include a webkit update?
Nov 04 12:00:28 <hcatlin> you know... maybe make gradients and rounded corners work?
Nov 04 12:02:51 <MetaView>      var obj = new MainAssistant();
Nov 04 12:02:51 <MetaView>      ... onSelect: obj.BackgroundSelected.bind(obj) },
Nov 04 12:03:00 <MetaView> shouldn't this work?
Nov 04 12:50:53 <atlanta> morning
Nov 04 13:19:09 <atlanta> oh lalala they have a service request to mute the mic i wonder how they iniate it
Nov 04 13:36:21 <hcatlin> morning atlanta
Nov 04 13:36:46 <atlanta> hcatlin: how are u
Nov 04 13:37:15 <hcatlin> doing alright.
Nov 04 13:37:19 <hcatlin> struggling with rounded corners, atm
Nov 04 13:37:35 <hcatlin> apparently, developing in safari before the device is a fial
Nov 04 13:37:36 <hcatlin> fail*
Nov 04 13:43:30 <atlanta> oh yea
Nov 04 13:43:31 <atlanta>  lol
Nov 04 13:51:26 <atlanta> i just use komodo
Nov 04 13:51:33 <atlanta> with the webos plugin
Nov 04 13:58:40 <hcatlin> ah, interesting
Nov 04 13:58:46 <hcatlin> and that gives you the neutered web browser?
Nov 04 14:03:01 <tarelerulz> android use Java as main programing language what does webos use ?
Nov 04 14:03:25 <benluo> javascript
Nov 04 14:05:12 <benluo> html+css+js
Nov 04 14:06:25 <tarelerulz> Thanks , Benluo  been wanting to find out about it and don't seem to find much on it on the web .
Nov 04 14:06:58 <benluo> really?
Nov 04 14:07:03 <benluo> pdn.palm.com
Nov 04 14:09:42 <tarelerulz> Well, been reading up on android and its new droid and tones of reviews ,but could not find much on palm's os
Nov 04 14:10:31 <bryanroth> good morning
Nov 04 14:10:43 <benluo> that's true
Nov 04 14:10:58 <benluo> android is more open or open source to others
Nov 04 14:11:05 <benluo> palm is more private
Nov 04 14:11:29 <benluo> but i like palm because i believe they will produce the best os and mobile phone
Nov 04 14:11:43 <benluo> as they did for palm PDA and treo 650
Nov 04 14:12:17 <benluo> i use palm system since 2001 and did not change now
Nov 04 14:12:24 <benluo> now i use treo 650
Nov 04 14:12:32 <benluo> want to change to pre
Nov 04 14:12:49 <benluo> but still waiting for GSM system is avalable in asia
Nov 04 14:13:30 <Roy-Pre101> 250 new messages.  You guys are too spammy!
Nov 04 14:14:54 <bryanroth> email?
Nov 04 14:16:40 <benluo> email?
Nov 04 14:16:44 <tarelerulz> What is palm's os /phone like for media ? movies and songs
Nov 04 14:17:11 <benluo> palm os named webOS
Nov 04 14:17:26 <benluo> the kernel is linux
Nov 04 14:17:44 <benluo> it use gstream to play media
Nov 04 14:18:26 <tarelerulz> That sound cool . I like grtream at lest the players I use that use it .
Nov 04 14:21:00 <tarelerulz> benluo: have you played media on it ?
Nov 04 14:21:09 <benluo> palm also open some source according to GPL 2 because it's kernel is linux
Nov 04 14:21:13 <benluo> no
Nov 04 14:21:29 <benluo> i have not pre yet
Nov 04 14:22:13 <tarelerulz> I at that point on the whole smart phone thing . I am looking into android alot .
Nov 04 14:22:46 <benluo> i just focus on what i believe
Nov 04 14:23:17 <tarelerulz> What do you believe ?
Nov 04 14:23:20 <benluo> if you want to make money on mobile phone. i think iphone and gphone are much potential than webOS
Nov 04 14:23:42 <benluo> I believe palm can make the best PDA and mobile phone
Nov 04 14:24:11 <benluo>  i believe pre
Nov 04 14:25:24 <tarelerulz> My main reason for  getting smart phone is I wanted something more then toy . I wanted some I can use and play with .
Nov 04 14:26:54 <tarelerulz> Plus, I wanted something that works with Linux .
Nov 04 14:29:10 <tarelerulz> That is why I wanted some more open then iphone or something like that.
Nov 04 14:29:53 <tarelerulz> I hate using need program to put media on my phone .
Nov 04 14:33:36 <ElVox> the iphone is a toy built by a toy company that does most things poorly (it took how many revisions of the OS to get copy and paste?), the Android is like a semi truck built by Nasa - it isn't fun, it isn't elegant, but it is big!
Nov 04 14:39:20 <benluo> Nokia N900/N920 seems match tarelerulz need
Nov 04 14:39:33 <tarelerulz> ElVox , That is an interesting way to put it . As for the cut and past ,  That is like you said very poor work on apples part .
Nov 04 14:40:47 <benluo> Nokia N900 is based on linux/gtk
Nov 04 14:41:19 <benluo> Qt add in to N900 because Nokia purchased Qt
Nov 04 14:43:19 <tarelerulz> I would love to see Open Linux phone ,but I will not hold my breath .
Nov 04 14:44:46 <benluo> Qphone is not Linux phone
Nov 04 14:44:54 <benluo> it's java phone
Nov 04 14:46:15 <tarelerulz> Wish I knew about program so I truly know what that means.
Nov 04 14:47:41 <tarelerulz> I meant I wish I knew more about programing to understand what a java phone truly means.  Need to sleep
Nov 04 15:11:35 <sugardave> if anybody is using adMob in their apps, can you kindly send me a PM?
Nov 04 15:12:52 <atlanta> im not using it but i signed up
Nov 04 15:12:55 <atlanta> needed help
Nov 04 15:12:56 <atlanta> ?
Nov 04 15:13:48 <sugardave> I just need some basic info....like, why I can't see if a link has been clicked (it has, since I clicked it), what is the relationship between eCPM, CPC, fill rate, etc.
Nov 04 15:14:03 <sugardave> basically, I'm trying to learn all of e-commerce at once :D
Nov 04 15:16:08 <MetaView> google adsense doesn't work on a webos app
Nov 04 15:18:26 <ElVox> off the top of my head, eCPM is the cost per thousand impressions (the amount of money you make, on average, when 1000 people LOOK at the ads) CPC is the cost per click which is how much you make off every single click
Nov 04 15:19:33 <sugardave> ElVox: so you mean it IS possible to make money from only serving impressions, and, obviously, you would make more money if people actually click the ads?
Nov 04 15:22:26 <MetaView> no
Nov 04 15:22:41 <MetaView> eCPM is just a virtual number based on clicks per 1000 visits
Nov 04 15:22:49 <MetaView> at least for google adsense
Nov 04 15:23:06 <ElVox> it does depend on the ad provider but meta is correct
Nov 04 15:23:15 <MetaView> but I guess, if more ppl view you get more per click
Nov 04 15:25:04 <ElVox> you CAN make money on impressions if you have enough volume (there are ad networks that don't pay per click at all) but there is a pretty high barrier to entry (like 15k uniques a month)
Nov 04 15:25:34 <ElVox> i thought admob had both a click model and an impression model (but it has been a while so i am probably mistaken)
Nov 04 15:25:57 <sugardave> it seems to be difficult to find this information on their site
Nov 04 15:27:08 <ElVox> i went back there a week ago and their sight felt like it was purposefully being obtuse...it tries to sell advertising too m
Nov 04 15:27:17 <ElVox> s/sight/site/
Nov 04 15:27:20 <sugardave> yeah, I get that feeling
Nov 04 15:28:45 <sugardave> what really chaps my ass is that I have clicked a couple of the ads, yet I have no indication that an ad click has occured....their map shows 0 clicks on all ocntinents
Nov 04 15:30:58 <ElVox> it might not be realtime...it might be a batch process (every night they update statistics)
Nov 04 15:31:22 <sugardave> yeah, It's only been about 10 hours....
Nov 04 15:32:49 <sugardave> ah, at least the map finally updated the impressions count
Nov 04 15:35:11 <ElVox> see :) This be the internets, please wait.
Nov 04 15:35:33 <sugardave> hahah, the real test will be tomorrow, I guess...hopefully some clicks will appear :D
Nov 04 15:39:30 <ElVox> also they might filter clicks from the same ip, want me to click on something for you? :P
Nov 04 15:40:59 <sugardave> haha, nah, just testing for now....it's fine if they filter the click, but I need to see at least ONE come through
Nov 04 15:42:47 <ElVox> If I ever run an ad network, i will just add a few fake clicks to everyone's account from the same country they reside in. I bet that will reduce support calls :D
Nov 04 15:43:19 <sugardave> haha
Nov 04 15:44:02 <MetaView> ppl will call and ask why they clicked twice but got 10 impressions
Nov 04 15:44:47 <sugardave> is it also pretty common to get the same impression over and over again (with a different link)?
Nov 04 15:48:29 <ElVox> sugardave, most ad networks have "Filler Ads" (that usually make you nothing) that they stick in until an advertiser selects your site or a bot crawls your site for adwords
Nov 04 15:48:52 <ElVox> that *might* be what you are seeing
Nov 04 15:49:06 <sugardave> hrm....how does that work, then, for a phone app?  no bots/crawlers
Nov 04 15:56:29 <MetaView> maybe they count the impressions
Nov 04 15:56:45 <MetaView> and when you above a given limit they start to post real ads
Nov 04 15:56:55 * MetaView needs to check out admob too
Nov 04 16:00:00 <sugardave> well, at first I was getting different ads, then I started getting long stretches of the same ad with different URLs, went to sleep, now I'm on a new long stretch of ads
Nov 04 16:00:51 <atlanta> OPenX
Nov 04 16:07:16 <ElVox> "Son, gold will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no gold."
Nov 04 16:11:16 <xalbo> Is there a way to simulate the mute switch turning on and off in the emulator?
Nov 04 16:14:00 <sugardave> not sure, but I doubt it...sound in the emulator is tricky
Nov 04 16:15:05 <xalbo> I don't actually care about sound.  For context, what I really want is to write a program that puts up a dashboard view whenever the ringer switch is muted, and disappears whenver the ringer is on.
Nov 04 16:15:39 <sugardave> hmm, there is possibly a system service for that?  I haven't looked at the audio yet
Nov 04 16:15:59 <xalbo> Since I have a bad habit of muting the phone, and then hours later noticing that I missed things because I forget it was muted.
Nov 04 16:16:17 <xalbo> The Keys service, it seems.
Nov 04 16:17:04 <xalbo> I'm trying to piece it together (If anyone has sample code, I'd be thrilled), but was also hoping to be able to test it easily.
Nov 04 16:17:16 <xalbo> If not, I'll just get used to installing and running for real.
Nov 04 16:18:44 <atlanta> look at the top of the phone where the switch is when muted you will see orange
Nov 04 16:18:53 <atlanta> just joking lol
Nov 04 16:20:30 <xalbo> Perfect!  And to think that the only way I knew to test it was to call myself and see whether it rang!
Nov 04 16:20:36 <xalbo> :)
Nov 04 17:05:53 <datafirm> because a webkit implementation will run natively vs iteratiing with js
Nov 04 17:16:29 <ElVox> huh?
Nov 04 17:25:37 <sugardave> what is the method of retrieving an XmlHttpRequest response and looking at the SOURCE versus updating some div with the reponse (which is all formatted and nice)?
Nov 04 17:25:52 <sugardave> er responseText
Nov 04 17:40:06 <ElVox> wait, sugardave what do you mean by SOURCE? responseText should be the source?
Nov 04 17:40:54 <sugardave> right, but it's so long that I can't see it in my log output
Nov 04 17:40:57 <sugardave> not the whole thing anyway
Nov 04 17:41:10 <sugardave> so I want to pump it into a div or whatever so I can see the whole thing
Nov 04 17:41:57 <sugardave> but if I try to use responseText, it's rendered as HTML and I just want to see the "real thing"
Nov 04 17:44:07 <ElVox> ahh, last night i used $("div_id").update(ajax.responseText); and it was putting the text into the div
Nov 04 17:44:49 <ElVox> but my responseText was an entire HTML page so maybe thats why prototype didn't render it
Nov 04 17:46:03 <sugardave> ElVox: hmmm...I'm trying a couple things now, I guess I should have learned HTML/JS long ago :D
Nov 04 17:47:39 <ElVox> i don't much care for prototype (totally wrong choice of lib on palms part) but i love javascript...
Nov 04 17:49:43 <sugardave> hehe, the lazy way: replace all < with &lt;
Nov 04 17:54:57 <ElVox> nice job! not lazy at all
Nov 04 18:05:16 <MetaView> $("div_id").innerTEXT ?
Nov 04 18:05:21 <MetaView> or something like this?
Nov 04 18:05:40 <MetaView> there should be one (innerHTML) which formats and one without
Nov 04 18:06:02 <sugardave> MetaView: ah, I will look for that next time
Nov 04 18:06:04 <MetaView> the inspector is a help when trying to find out which property is the correct one
Nov 04 18:06:07 <sugardave> my method is good for now
Nov 04 18:06:12 <MetaView> ok
Nov 04 18:06:17 <sugardave> thanks
Nov 04 18:06:22 <MetaView> no problem
Nov 04 18:08:09 <sugardave> damn, lots of updated apps today...no Mind Master
Nov 04 18:08:54 <MetaView> really?
Nov 04 18:09:03 <MetaView>  Consumption Calculator with them?
Nov 04 18:09:33 <sugardave> I'm updating some apps, hang on a minute
Nov 04 18:10:07 <sugardave> correction....I'm TRYING to update some apps....appears hung
Nov 04 18:12:19 <sugardave> almost....there.....
Nov 04 18:13:56 <sugardave> I don't see Consumption Calculator, no
Nov 04 18:14:01 <MetaView> best commit msg: removed null-ptr exception in exception handler...
Nov 04 18:14:07 <MetaView> a pity...
Nov 04 18:14:18 <sugardave> maybe they'll update twice today?
Nov 04 18:14:20 <sugardave> who knows
Nov 04 18:14:26 <MetaView> it was only a disabled Help menu item
Nov 04 18:14:53 <MetaView> didn't got a tweet  from NewAppCatalog or what ever it is called
Nov 04 18:15:18 * sugardave still hasn't really used Twitter.
Nov 04 18:15:35 <sugardave> I did follow webOSdev, though
Nov 04 18:16:14 <MetaView> start to like Twitter during write 2TwitMe for old Palm OS
Nov 04 18:23:52 <atlanta> grrrr gotta have an app in the app catalog to get 1.3.1
Nov 04 18:26:01 <incidentist> atlanta: if it's any consolation, some of us with apps in the catalog haven't gotten our hands on it yet
Nov 04 18:27:06 <atlanta> aww ok
Nov 04 18:27:12 <atlanta> i feel better :-)
Nov 04 18:27:22 <atlanta> incidentist: have u sent up a email to chuq
Nov 04 18:27:22 <atlanta> ?
Nov 04 18:28:10 <incidentist> yep, i've got access to the sooper seekrit forums but not to the actual software yet. fun times.
Nov 04 18:31:05 <atlanta> oh ok
Nov 04 18:31:11 <atlanta> anything worth while in there
Nov 04 18:31:28 <drnull> incidentist: I've not got access to the forums yet, so at least you've got something.  :)  Wonder if chuq was a bit overwhelmed.
Nov 04 18:33:02 <incidentist> atlanta: nope, it's mostly just folks smoking cigars, sipping cognac, and gossiping about the folks who don't have access.
Nov 04 18:33:07 <incidentist> crap, i've said too much
Nov 04 18:33:21 <hcatlin> mannn, these data-restrictions are insane
Nov 04 18:33:30 <hcatlin> no sqlite3 db bundled in the app
Nov 04 18:33:56 <hcatlin> i can think of ugly ways to make this work well
Nov 04 18:34:02 <hcatlin> buuut
Nov 04 18:34:06 <hcatlin> they can reject for unclean code
Nov 04 18:34:57 <atlanta> hcatlin: what u mean
Nov 04 18:35:17 <incidentist> hcatlin: i doubt they do that, unless by "unclean" you mean "uses private apis"
Nov 04 18:35:18 <hcatlin> like, one of the conditions is that you have to have "well organized code"
Nov 04 18:35:34 <hcatlin> if i remember some early guidelines
Nov 04 18:36:20 <bmyers> so you cant submit a obscucified .js ?
Nov 04 18:36:42 <incidentist> you can.
Nov 04 18:37:47 <bmyers> it can just be un-obscucified?
Nov 04 18:37:53 <Roy-Pre101> obfuscated.
Nov 04 18:38:04 <Roy-Pre101> bmyers: Yes.
Nov 04 18:38:42 <gkatsev> i really dont see the point for obfuscation. everything can be so easily deobfuscated...
Nov 04 18:38:48 <bmyers> so whats the point of doing it in the first place to protect your code
Nov 04 18:38:52 <bmyers> exactly..
Nov 04 18:39:22 <bmyers> just another hurdle to make it inconveinient?
Nov 04 18:39:54 <bmyers> does it make a diff more difficult?
Nov 04 18:39:57 <gkatsev> bmyers: i think its pointless and it harms progress because people learning are annoying by it
Nov 04 18:40:25 <datafirm> palm needs to make a vm to run compiled js, perhaps.  that way the vm could load code based off device id and secret key or something similar.
Nov 04 18:40:58 <gkatsev> palm said they are looking for ways to obfuscate code.
Nov 04 18:41:15 <gkatsev> currently the only protection is the seperate partition and you can obfuscate via jsmin or something like that
Nov 04 18:41:31 <incidentist> we obfuscate our code. makes it smaller, maybe makes it faster, and we don't write code for people to learn from, to be honest.
Nov 04 18:42:36 <gkatsev> incidentist: supposedly, the pre's interpreter is basically a compiler so jsmin doesnt really help with its speed as on an actual browser. but dont take my word for it. i heard it from some guy on here, lol
Nov 04 18:42:37 <bmyers> but it can be made into plain text again from there nonetheless
Nov 04 18:43:08 <gkatsev> yeah
Nov 04 18:44:03 <drnull> incidentist: just curious, did you learn from what others wrote or did you come up with it all on your own?
Nov 04 18:45:28 <Adora> quick question:  what's a good app to use to look at palm-log output?
Nov 04 18:45:42 <incidentist> gkatsev: i'd be surprised if the interpreter was a compiler. i mean, at some level every interpreter is a compiler, but i don't think webOS compiles code in any meaningful sense of the word. i could be wrong. anyway, it makes the code smaller. :)
Nov 04 18:46:08 <atlanta> i created a deobfuscater in php last week
Nov 04 18:46:52 <incidentist> yeah, I'm aware it can be deobfuscated, but it's easy enough to do and doesn't subtract from the user experience, so it's in there to discourage casual hacking.
Nov 04 18:47:22 <atlanta> ahhh i guess
Nov 04 18:47:33 <atlanta> most people are just scared of people stealing code
Nov 04 18:47:33 <xalbo> As a casual hacker, I don't appreciate being discouraged.  But I guess that's your choice.
Nov 04 18:47:36 <incidentist> (and now everyone's gonna deobfuscate my stuff just to spite me. so it goes)
Nov 04 18:47:40 <gkatsev> incidentist: the point is that people who want to hack. casual or not will not be detracted by the obfuscation. while people trying to learn might not know enough to deobfuscate
Nov 04 18:47:40 <atlanta> im more of a learner
Nov 04 18:47:55 <incidentist> xalbo: we make games, and we're pretty concerned about security in our games.
Nov 04 18:48:03 <atlanta> true i guess
Nov 04 18:48:18 <incidentist> online multiplayer games.
Nov 04 18:48:43 <atlanta> yea exposing certain links are pretty much a secuirty type things
Nov 04 18:48:46 <atlanta> incidentist: what apps u made
Nov 04 18:48:46 <atlanta> ?
Nov 04 18:48:49 <gkatsev> incidentist: i guess that makes sense, but in the long run obfuscating code isnt gonna do much.
Nov 04 18:48:59 <incidentist> there's obviously only so much we can do, but we might as well do it.
Nov 04 18:49:01 <drnull> I understand the security aspect of obfuscation.  I just wish the obfuscation was limited to the sensitive blocks of code.  Then the "learners" could learn and the hackers would still have to work.
Nov 04 18:49:36 <ElVox> *sign* anyone have an example of setting a scroller widget to a specific element in javascript? nothing I do is moving the scrollers position
Nov 04 18:49:38 <incidentist> drnull: selectively obfuscating bits of code for the sake of the hacker community is more cumbersome than just obfuscating everything.
Nov 04 18:49:44 <atlanta> ahhh with javascript there is no real security
Nov 04 18:49:58 <incidentist> atlanta: right. so do what you can if you need to.
Nov 04 18:50:14 <incidentist> atlanta: word ace and card ace
Nov 04 18:50:19 <atlanta> oh nice nice
Nov 04 18:50:45 <atlanta> yea i seen one app with obfuscation and a nice document.write(unescape( worked
Nov 04 18:50:53 <gkatsev> haha
Nov 04 18:50:56 <atlanta> hopefully they didnt waste to much time with that
Nov 04 18:50:57 <atlanta> lol
Nov 04 18:51:04 <drnull> incidentist: but obfuscating a single file (or multiple files) would be no more/less work than obfuscating all the files, right?
Nov 04 18:51:27 <atlanta> doesnt refrencing the arrays it creates slow things down
Nov 04 18:51:27 <atlanta> ?
Nov 04 18:51:30 <incidentist> drnull: no, we have a build script that obfuscates files before we ship. does em all at once.
Nov 04 18:52:16 <atlanta> something you guys created or another company
Nov 04 18:52:16 <incidentist> atlanta: i'm not sure what arrays you're talking about.
Nov 04 18:52:16 <atlanta> ?
Nov 04 18:52:46 <atlanta> well most of the obfuscator throw a array with all the functions and calls into something like 0x34f3
Nov 04 18:53:12 <incidentist> no, we don't do anything that complicated.
Nov 04 18:53:17 <atlanta> oh ok
Nov 04 18:53:32 <atlanta>  yea going through one set of files seemed like it was a big slow donw
Nov 04 18:53:32 <atlanta> down
Nov 04 18:54:34 <atlanta> next subject
Nov 04 18:55:00 <atlanta> i was looking into private functions for the mic
Nov 04 18:55:05 <atlanta> when inuse for the phone
Nov 04 18:55:14 <atlanta> seeing if theres a way u can route it to gstream
Nov 04 18:57:39 <egaudet_work> anyone who wants to 'steal' the code will take the time to de-obfuscate it
Nov 04 18:58:29 <atlanta> true its all about the drive in wanting it
Nov 04 18:59:09 <egaudet_work> obfuscation is one of those things that in theory you think may be doing something but really doesnt' do anything positive
Nov 04 18:59:11 <egaudet_work> IMHO
Nov 04 18:59:12 <bmyers> of the 100 ppl who can pay for and dl an app in the catalog though, whats the % of ppl who can do that
Nov 04 18:59:24 <egaudet_work> who CAN or who WOULD?
Nov 04 18:59:34 <egaudet_work> If someone wants the code, they'll get the code
Nov 04 18:59:47 <bmyers> possesses the abilty
Nov 04 19:00:05 <egaudet_work> really finding a de-obfuscation tool is much easier than the steps to actually get the files in the first place
Nov 04 19:00:16 <egaudet_work> it doesn't matter who possesses the ability
Nov 04 19:00:31 <bmyers> i guess it's just like locks, they are for honest ppl
Nov 04 19:00:31 <egaudet_work> it matters their motive
Nov 04 19:01:18 <drnull> I just see it as unfortunate that we learn so much from those who are open, only to then have the knowledge end instead of continuing the sharing.
Nov 04 19:01:54 <bmyers> its a valid point drnull
Nov 04 19:02:13 <bmyers> the flip side is a developer working for a scillion hours on an app
Nov 04 19:02:40 <incidentist1> drnull: i do my best to share what i've learned through other channels (no pun intended)
Nov 04 19:02:42 <bmyers> only to have some snot nose post it in a  forum somewhere or a hack to disable the "demo" mode
Nov 04 19:02:44 <drnull> bmyers: yep, I understand that side as well.  I don't have the answers... that's why I said "unfortunate" and not "evil", "bad", or "wrong".  :)
Nov 04 19:03:00 <egaudet_work> bmyers, readable source vs. license
Nov 04 19:03:08 <egaudet_work> palm's js are all readable source
Nov 04 19:03:15 <egaudet_work> you cannot post them on the forum or distribute them in any way
Nov 04 19:03:21 <incidentist1> egaudet_work: true, and that's been a big boon
Nov 04 19:03:40 <bmyers> yeah but there are hacks to do things not intended by the author..
Nov 04 19:03:50 <incidentist1> esp given the lack of decent docs
Nov 04 19:04:01 <egaudet_work> bmyers, those hacks are easily identified with readable source as well
Nov 04 19:04:45 <egaudet_work> rather than hiding everything, and then the first person to find an exploit is someone who wants to abuse it
Nov 04 19:05:11 <bmyers> personally, i like being able to hack the stock palm stuff, its my phone..
Nov 04 19:05:28 <egaudet_work> and even considering just the pre and webos for a moment, the percentage of people who do anything outside of stock palm and app catalog realm is tiny I'd guess
Nov 04 19:06:41 <bmyers> you're still talking 10's of thousands of ppl
Nov 04 19:07:28 <bmyers> most app developers (worth their weight in salt) are here anyway
Nov 04 19:07:33 <egaudet_work> yea but still, the percentage of dishonest people in that smaller group is even smaller
Nov 04 19:07:41 <bmyers> if you want to learn from there, just ask em how they did it..
Nov 04 19:08:08 <bmyers> if you want to learn from their code, just ask em how they did it..
Nov 04 19:08:24 <egaudet_work> and then the amount of dishonest people who are not only able but willing to do something illegal that would be stopped by obfuscation... well that's probably down close to 0
Nov 04 19:08:39 <bmyers> agreed. sure..
Nov 04 19:08:59 <bmyers> even if your code is 4096 bit encrypted and you need a serial number to run it..
Nov 04 19:09:09 <bmyers> some little snot will make a key-gen anyway..
Nov 04 19:09:40 <incidentist1> re:asking: yep. i mean it's not THAT simple and i'd prefer that developers who have the initiative to dive into code to do so on their own without depending on someone to answer them. but that can't always happen.
Nov 04 19:10:41 <bmyers> luv your car game BTW
Nov 04 19:10:46 <bmyers> luv your card game BTW
Nov 04 19:10:57 <incidentist1> heh thx!
Nov 04 19:11:12 <incidentist1> a word ace update just dropped this morning, after a month of limbo. ughhh
Nov 04 19:11:20 <bmyers> never looked at the code to see how its done.
Nov 04 19:11:26 <incidentist1> first feature update we managed to get out the door since august
Nov 04 19:11:27 <bmyers> i figured i could just ask :)
Nov 04 19:12:04 <bmyers> hope the update speeds things up a bit..
Nov 04 19:12:08 <incidentist1> bmyers: you can, but anyway i'm waaaay behind in my article-writing
Nov 04 19:12:42 <bmyers> it can be a bit slow at times. i realize you have to wait for humans at times..
Nov 04 19:12:56 <incidentist1> silly humans
Nov 04 19:13:32 <bmyers> back to coding for me..
Nov 04 19:15:16 <bmyers> someone from palm ^^^^^ Adora?
Nov 04 19:15:50 <bmyers> sshhh. the are back...
Nov 04 19:16:20 <Adora> who, me?
Nov 04 19:16:56 <bmyers> yeah.
Nov 04 19:17:09 <Adora> psh, I'm harmless
Nov 04 19:17:26 <bmyers> you are from palm or just hacked in to their network?
Nov 04 19:17:49 <Adora> I'm on the app review team
Nov 04 19:18:01 <Adora> I mean...
Nov 04 19:18:13 <Adora> NO I R 1337 h4xor!!
Nov 04 19:18:17 <bmyers> ah ha
Nov 04 19:19:03 <bmyers> shouldnt you be off reviewing apps instead of hanging around chat rooms so the fine folks here can stop complaining on how long it takes to get apps reviewed?
Nov 04 19:19:23 <atlanta> MLFAO
Nov 04 19:19:25 <Giotto> rere
Nov 04 19:19:26 <atlanta> LMFAO**
Nov 04 19:19:47 <atlanta> bmyers: simmer down lol
Nov 04 19:20:04 <bmyers> i just say'n..
Nov 04 19:20:15 <Adora> bmyers:  we're working on it  =]
Nov 04 19:20:17 <atlanta> Adora: how about you stress how simple it is to implement text message forwarding
Nov 04 19:20:28 <incidentist> bmyers: nice detective work :P
Nov 04 19:20:31 <atlanta> and suggest maybe that should be in 1.3 lol
Nov 04 19:21:02 <atlanta> ahh wat the hell GO IN WITH THE QUESTIONS lol
Nov 04 19:21:20 <atlanta> it seems to be far and few between you get to actually chat with someone
Nov 04 19:22:04 <bmyers> didnt mean to blow your cover Adora. maybe you folks should get an aol account..
Nov 04 19:22:07 <Giotto> what kind of sales information you get when you're app is in the app store?
Nov 04 19:22:35 <Adora> bmyers:  I have no cover, I'm pretty out in the open about being a palm employee
Nov 04 19:22:38 <Adora> twitter.com/adora
Nov 04 19:22:42 <Adora> www.lisabrewster.com
Nov 04 19:22:43 <Adora> etc etc etc
Nov 04 19:22:47 <incidentist> (incidentally my preferred solution to the app approval times would be to hire more app reviewers rather than begrudge the current ones their coffee breaks)
Nov 04 19:23:13 <bmyers> Adora: just giving you a hard time.
Nov 04 19:23:24 <Adora> I don't know how much time I'll be able to just hang out, but I'll probably be accessible on irc from here on out
Nov 04 19:23:38 <bmyers> i appreciate the ppl at palm taking an interest in what we're up to down here in the trenches
Nov 04 19:23:38 <incidentist> cool
Nov 04 19:23:45 <Adora> been a long time since I really had a "home channel"
Nov 04 19:24:25 <Adora> bmyers:  hey, I technically came from the trenches, so that's what I'm here for
Nov 04 19:24:28 <atlanta> well welcome home Adora
Nov 04 19:24:29 <bmyers> i dont have an app in the submission queue so I dont care how long you take on your coffee breaks
Nov 04 19:24:50 <Adora> I've only been at palm for what, three weeks now?
Nov 04 19:25:20 <incidentist> i don't think a channel can truly be a home until it has a useless bot or three. but maybe that's just me.
Nov 04 19:25:22 <bmyers> congrats on your new position..
Nov 04 19:25:51 <Adora> incidentist:  oh, that's chuqui
Nov 04 19:26:09 <Adora> try sending it some commands sometime
Nov 04 19:26:12 <Adora> it'll be a hoot
Nov 04 19:26:17 <bmyers> Adora: I do have maybe a question you could answer.
Nov 04 19:26:26 <Adora> hit me
Nov 04 19:26:41 <bmyers> whats the biggest slow down in the submission process that is the fault of the submitter?
Nov 04 19:26:50 <incidentist> srlsly? i thought that was someone pretending to be chuq or something
Nov 04 19:27:02 <Giotto> me too :) but I just wait for my turn a get a cake in the meantime :)
Nov 04 19:27:58 <datafirm> hello
Nov 04 19:28:08 <Adora> incidentist:  actually, we all take turns
Nov 04 19:28:09 <atlanta> HELLO datafirm
Nov 04 19:28:13 <Adora> chuq doesn't really exist
Nov 04 19:28:14 <datafirm> Can one use document.evaluate in webOS Webkit?
Nov 04 19:28:29 <atlanta> Adora: chuq does exist he's a real boy
Nov 04 19:28:29 <datafirm> trying to parse xml with xpath.
Nov 04 19:28:50 <datafirm> seems it would be faster than iterating through a like json object.
Nov 04 19:28:51 <incidentist> he's not an 80's robot named C.H.U.Q?
Nov 04 19:29:38 <incidentist> bmyers: we submitted an update but didn't include release notes and that turned out to be a big problem.
Nov 04 19:30:06 <Giotto> Adora: do we get nice daily sales reports if the app gets accepted to the store?
Nov 04 19:30:08 <bmyers> good to know
Nov 04 19:30:09 <incidentist> dunno if that's the only problem submitters have. Adora?
Nov 04 19:30:45 <Adora> giotto:  I don't know what's planned for the future, but for now you can ask chuq and he'll send it to you
Nov 04 19:30:51 <Adora> I mean, you can ask "chuq"
Nov 04 19:31:09 <Giotto> like I send him an email and he sends back a spreadsheat or something? :)
Nov 04 19:31:19 <Adora> yep
Nov 04 19:31:24 <datafirm> Have the private forums been opened up yet?  I've been invited, but have not seen the private forum yet.
Nov 04 19:31:55 <Adora> biggest slowdown = menu order (must have edit at top, help at bottom) and inactive help menu items
Nov 04 19:32:12 <Giotto> Adora: thanks :)
Nov 04 19:32:49 <bmyers> Adora: the staggler bits of an app that get put off till the end and forgotten.
Nov 04 19:33:18 <bmyers> actually, i dont envy your position of having to review the stuff..
Nov 04 19:33:53 <bmyers> but you must get alot of catered lunches so it evens out..
Nov 04 19:34:12 <Adora> no catered lunches, but at least the cafeteria's nice
Nov 04 19:34:29 <Adora> it's actually a LOT of fun
Nov 04 19:34:36 <Adora> I mean, I get to play with apps all day
Nov 04 19:34:51 <bmyers> hey, have a fun job. you'll never work a day in your life..
Nov 04 19:35:51 <Adora> but it's hard when a developer can't duplicate a bug in the emulator and gets frustrated
Nov 04 19:36:24 <Adora> suggesting that they go ask on the forums just seems like a cop-out
Nov 04 19:37:04 <bmyers> i can see both sides of that though.
Nov 04 19:37:17 <bmyers> you're not there to actually debug the stuff
Nov 04 19:37:33 <MetaView> Adora: got both rejects: Menu-Order and Help item :D
Nov 04 19:37:40 <Adora> that's what I have to keep reminding myself
Nov 04 19:37:55 <bmyers> the emu leaves a little to be desired. along with inspector..
Nov 04 19:37:55 <Adora> but I would if I could!
Nov 04 19:37:55 <MetaView> wha don't you write it BIG on the website: THINK about menu ORDER and help ITEM :)
Nov 04 19:38:04 <Adora> I wanna see you guys have the best apps possible
Nov 04 19:38:21 <bmyers> its in everyones interest to do so... yes..
Nov 04 19:39:33 * MetaView is going to do some Palm OS dev now
Nov 04 19:39:44 * Giotto is having chocolate cake for lunch
Nov 04 19:40:13 * MetaView goes to bed in a maybe 3 hours
Nov 04 19:45:11 <incidentist> sussing it out on the forums is better for archival purposes anyway. when someone else has the same problem, they can look it up instead of hashing it out in 1-on-1 correspondence.
Nov 04 19:48:40 <ElVox> I love javascript + DOM! Even though Prototype sucks, I can use jQuery to do what I need in webOS because the DOM is all that really matters.
Nov 04 19:49:01 * ElVox makes a sacrifice to the Resig.
Nov 04 19:51:02 <incidentist> ElVox: i love jquery too but haven't found much use for it in webOS. there's just not that much DOM manipulation going on, and Prototype isn't elegant, but it's more geared towards non-DOM stuff.
Nov 04 19:58:10 <ElVox> that is the thing; prototype is "geared towards non-DOM stuff" but what the heck does that mean in a web-type app? Everything is the DOM. Every widget is in the DOM, nearly every event comes from DOM.
Nov 04 20:02:51 <saurik> elvox: yeah; its somewhat dissapointing that palm nigh-unto hardcoded prototype into luna as a performance optimization, despite jquery having become the library everyone compares themselves to
Nov 04 20:03:05 <saurik> I blame the ruby community
Nov 04 20:03:06 <saurik> ;P
Nov 04 20:05:35 <ElVox> saurik, it is one of those bone-headed corporate moves. Kind of like picking Java as your smarth phone platform.
Nov 04 20:06:39 <incidentist> ElVox: well, no, actually most of the stuff doesn't happen in the dom. all the widget logic happens in model/controller/whatever objects that only connect to the DOM in a couple of places. my apps don't really do much complex selecting or direct element manipulation, which is what jquery is good at.
Nov 04 20:06:47 <incidentist> (really really really good at)
Nov 04 20:07:02 <incidentist> whereas, i mean, prototype has bind()
Nov 04 20:07:30 <incidentist> and those enumeration functions and so forth
Nov 04 20:08:46 <gkatsev> bind is useful, cuz js has the stupid this that problem
Nov 04 20:09:43 <incidentist> yep. can't write an app without it, unfortunately
Nov 04 20:10:07 <ElVox> hehe i haven't used bind once :P
Nov 04 20:10:20 <gkatsev> so, sure, prototype isnt the best, but at least its there...
Nov 04 20:10:36 <gkatsev> ElVox: do you define this/me/that instead?
Nov 04 20:11:02 <incidentist> all right, *I* can't write an app without it. :P
Nov 04 20:11:35 <gkatsev> incidentist: you could, youll just need to be careful about this and that
Nov 04 20:11:50 <gkatsev> *wink wink nudge nidge*?
Nov 04 20:11:50 <gkatsev> lol
Nov 04 20:11:51 <ElVox> no, i use jQuery. Everything I work on are jQuery objects and event handlers. I don't use this at all (because I don't have classes or instance variables)
Nov 04 20:12:19 <gkatsev> ElVox: ah, right. anyway, something is better than nothing, right?
Nov 04 20:13:11 <ElVox> instead my "instance data" is stored in the DOM :) my classes are all static (manipulating the DOM based on attribute in the DOM itself)
Nov 04 20:13:12 <incidentist> gkatsev: rightyo guvnah
Nov 04 20:13:30 <ElVox> gkatsev, oh don't get me wrong I love the webOS platform.
Nov 04 20:14:02 <Rick_work> ElVox  why do you store your instance data in the dom,  the dom is SO SLOW.  I keep EVERYTING out of the dom until I -have- to put it there.
Nov 04 20:14:24 <incidentist> yeah, me too
Nov 04 20:14:44 <gkatsev> canvas ftw, lol
Nov 04 20:15:07 <ElVox> I just can't stand prototype (probably has to do with a few months of my life I wasted porting an app from YUI to Prototype then I discovered jQuery and rewrote the app in 2 days and about 1/10th the code)
Nov 04 20:16:58 <incidentist> was this a webos app?
Nov 04 20:17:15 <ElVox> nah that was two years ago or something
Nov 04 20:17:44 <Rick_work> well, doing that you had to re-write about 2/3 of yui  because yui is about the DOM and prototype is about variable space.  Different things for different purposes.
Nov 04 20:20:03 <ElVox> rick, I have never found the DOM too slow (i'm not doing orbital calculations!) but anything that takes a long time or manipulates a lot of elements is done in a document fragment
Nov 04 20:21:06 <Rick_work> ElVox  I guess you and I are manipulating different data sets.
Nov 04 20:22:10 <Rick_work> We write financial apps and text-based apps and it's not uncommon for us to have arrays with 200K elements or to have text files we're parsing client side on the order of 130K words.
Nov 04 20:23:18 <Rick_work> Working with arrays in memory, javascript is _VERY VERY FAST_  especially the newer Firefox or Webkit builds,  Google's V8 and firefox's javascript compilers are amazing.
Nov 04 20:29:11 <ElVox> oh see we are talking about fundamentally different things. :) parsing should be done in arrays but what do you do with the result of that parsing? stick it into a parse tree of some sort? why not stick it into the DOM? then things like code-folding (as an example) is just a CSS selector away because you already parsed the blocks into nested DOM elements.
Nov 04 20:29:22 <ElVox> That is kind of where I am: doing real time parsing of user calculator input (infix or postfix) into expression trees in the DOM. Then so solving equations is just a walk up the DOM.
Nov 04 20:31:31 <ElVox> the slowest part of the DOM is that nearly every change triggers a reflow or redraw. I found doc fragments to be surprisingly fast ( i was using doc fragments to parse and trim google et al. search results and it was very fast)
Nov 04 20:39:14 <sockenfresser> hi there, simple db question is there any way to get the last autoincrement id of sqlite like in C with sqlite3_last_insert_rowid
Nov 04 20:40:42 <datafirm> Can one use document.evaluate in webOS Webkit?
Nov 04 20:40:44 <datafirm> trying to parse xml with xpath.
Nov 04 20:40:50 <datafirm> seems it would be faster than iterating through a like json object.
Nov 04 20:41:32 <drnull> sockenfresser: the success callback for transaction.executeSql is function(transaction, results).  results.insertId is the last autoincrement id
Nov 04 20:41:59 <sockenfresser> yea great thats what i was looking for thanks
Nov 04 20:42:17 <drnull> np
Nov 04 20:44:09 <Rick_work> ElVox  we're fundamentally doing different things.
Nov 04 20:45:21 <Rick_work> I will typically return anywhere from 1 to 30 rows of information from those files or arrays.  The DOM for me is a "reporting place"  a way of displaying data, if I was doing the kind of stuff you're doing, then you're dead on right,  why recreate a tree structure when you are handed one.
Nov 04 20:45:43 <Rick_work> datafirm in a webos app or in the browser?  because they're different.
Nov 04 20:45:56 <datafirm> Rick_work: webos app
Nov 04 20:46:14 <Rick_work> datafirm,  where is your xml at?
Nov 04 20:46:28 <datafirm> Its coming back as a document object.
Nov 04 20:46:33 <datafirm> Rick_work: ^^
Nov 04 20:47:01 <datafirm> I could get json as well, but Id rather work with xml.. xpath etc.
Nov 04 20:47:34 <datafirm> Rick_work: it does not seem that document.evaluate is working.
Nov 04 20:48:13 <Rick_work> are you getting a result of any kind?
Nov 04 20:58:00 <Rick_work> I would post a question in the forums at developer.palm.com  and possibly send an email to devrel@palm.com for a clarification.
Nov 04 21:00:00 <datafirm> Rick_work: ok thanks
Nov 04 21:04:49 <ElVox> rick_work, I get it - really  :) The thing is, back in the day javascript was "too slow to use for anything serious" but people did serious stuff anyway and now javascript is much faster. That is how I see the DOM - If you use it, speed will come.
Nov 04 21:06:40 <Rick_work> ElVox  yep.  That makes sense too.  But for what YOU are doing, your technique is rational and effective.
Nov 04 21:07:10 <ElVox> thanks, that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me in weeks!
Nov 04 21:07:29 <Rick_work> wow,  you have a sad sad life.
Nov 04 21:07:39 <ElVox> I do :/
Nov 04 21:08:33 <Giotto> get a bottle of whisky and invite over some friends, solves all the problems :)
Nov 04 21:08:38 <Flashpass> haha
Nov 04 21:08:53 <incidentist> Giotto: that, too, is rational and effective.
Nov 04 21:08:58 <ElVox> is the whisky for me or the friends?
Nov 04 21:09:29 <Giotto> both :)
Nov 04 21:09:40 * ElVox starts thinking of Jaggermeister
Nov 04 21:09:55 <incidentist> nothing worse than a friend who invites you over to watch them drink
Nov 04 21:10:20 <ElVox> or a friend that only comes over for the booze :P
Nov 04 21:11:01 * Rick_work doesn't drink. He is always looking for alternative social lubricants.
Nov 04 21:11:11 <Giotto> haha, I kick those friends out :)
Nov 04 21:11:19 <ElVox> rick, i like jello...pool fulls of jello
Nov 04 21:11:23 <ElVox> great lubricant
Nov 04 21:12:08 <incidentist> oh lord, bad mental image. thanks ElVox.
Nov 04 21:12:35 <ElVox> i didn't say red jello!
Nov 04 21:12:44 <incidentist> aaaAAAArgh
Nov 04 21:13:04 <incidentist> where did i keep that jar of brain bleach?
Nov 04 21:13:44 <ElVox> zee goggles...
Nov 04 21:20:31 <sugardave> Roy-Pre101: are you around?
Nov 04 21:20:41 <incidentist> Roy-Pre101: that's a nice video of Match Em. didn't realize recording emulator video would look so good.
Nov 04 21:21:02 <sugardave> Roy-Pre101: nevermind, it came back to life
Nov 04 21:21:10 <Roy-Pre101> ?
Nov 04 21:21:22 <Roy-Pre101> sugardave: what happened?
Nov 04 21:21:30 <sugardave> you know, the monster
Nov 04 21:21:53 <Roy-Pre101> incidentist: Yeah, I was pleased by the videos JHoff did.
Nov 04 21:22:02 <sugardave> seriously, I was thinking I was having DNS problems getting to webos101 and I needed a link from there
Nov 04 21:22:12 <ElVox> webos101 is very slow for me
Nov 04 21:22:14 <sugardave> but it's all better now
Nov 04 21:22:17 <ElVox> at times
Nov 04 21:22:26 <sugardave> yes, it's slow most times for me
Nov 04 21:22:34 <sugardave> maybe Palm could donate some server space for it :D
Nov 04 21:22:42 <Roy-Pre101> I will move it soon.  But that's not a bad idea. :)
Nov 04 21:23:01 <ElVox> hehe get apache running on a few pres and you will have the smallest server farm ever
Nov 04 21:23:24 <Roy-Pre101> heh
Nov 04 21:38:45 <Rick_work> ElVox apache on gumstix  is physically smaller
Nov 04 21:39:14 <Rick_work> I was envisioning a beowolf cluster of pre's in a shoebox
Nov 04 21:39:43 <ElVox> even better, a group of pre's running plan9
Nov 04 21:39:46 * ElVox drools
Nov 04 21:41:42 <ElVox> "Google can make a cluster fit in a container. Microsoft can make a cluster without air conditioning. But ONLY Palm can make a cluster in your glove box!"
Nov 04 21:44:57 <drnull> http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock
Nov 04 21:45:04 <drnull> crap, sorry wrong window
Nov 04 21:45:43 <pandora--> wow
Nov 04 21:53:14 <ElVox> i have to say that big_ben_clock proves my thesis about twitter's community being the latest "race to the bottom"
Nov 04 21:53:20 <Pre101> boing
Nov 04 21:53:35 <Pre101> what's big_ben_clock?
Nov 04 21:53:46 <ElVox> http://twitter.com/big_ben_clock
Nov 04 21:53:58 <drnull> ElVox: Aye, my point (intended for another chat) was about the silliness of twitter being epitomized in this account.
Nov 04 21:54:14 <ElVox> yup. that account sums it up perfectly.
Nov 04 21:54:21 <Pre101> And more followers than I've got!
Nov 04 21:54:43 <ElVox> now please wait while I make a palm pre app that bongs along to big ben based on this twitter feed. i'll be rich in days
Nov 04 21:55:49 <Pre101> Hmm, how do I kick off my ghosted nickname?
Nov 04 21:55:54 <destinal> Adora: IMO it's really silly that it sounds like Palm is pushing all devs to have an edit menu in their app even when it does nothing and is clearly a waste (like in a game with no text input involved)
Nov 04 21:56:10 <Pre101> destinal: It's been discussed.
Nov 04 21:56:24 <Pre101> Immersive apps may be getting a bye at some point.
Nov 04 21:56:39 <Pre101> Or is that a 'by'?
Nov 04 21:56:44 <Pre101> I think by.
Nov 04 21:56:57 <Pre101> But as yet they hadn't reached any concensus on it.
Nov 04 21:57:04 <sugardave> it's a "bye week" in football
Nov 04 21:57:27 <MetaView> what means immersive?
Nov 04 21:57:50 <Adora> and I still don't think consensus is reached
Nov 04 21:57:54 * sugardave subscribes to big_ben_clock's RSS feed, too.
Nov 04 21:57:58 <MetaView> hm, the translation make no sense to me
Nov 04 21:58:01 <Adora> but yeah, it's being discussed  =]
Nov 04 21:58:08 <destinal> also oil pointed out that his app was rejected initially until he added a help screen to the help screen
Nov 04 21:58:21 <destinal> lots of silliness
Nov 04 21:58:28 <sugardave> destinal: haha, yeah, then you can disable it, but only there
Nov 04 21:58:29 <Adora> destinal:  how long ago was that?
Nov 04 21:58:59 <destinal> Adora:  A week ago or so I think
Nov 04 21:59:07 <Adora> huh
Nov 04 21:59:10 <Adora> what's the app?
Nov 04 21:59:21 <MetaView> I have no active menu in my help screen
Nov 04 21:59:53 <sugardave> MetaView: you have to have an app menu active in every scene
Nov 04 22:00:00 <MetaView> Roy-Pre101 should better exit with error 101
Nov 04 22:00:03 <MetaView> :)
Nov 04 22:00:03 <Rick_work> you have to have an app menu in every scene
Nov 04 22:00:06 <Adora> every non-full screen scene must have an active app menu
Nov 04 22:00:08 <sugardave> but you can disable the "help" entry in the one in the help scene
Nov 04 22:00:24 <Rick_work> the help scene must MUST be a "standard palm help scene"
Nov 04 22:00:29 <Rick_work> which isn't really a help scene at all
Nov 04 22:00:34 <sugardave> nope
Nov 04 22:00:36 <Rick_work> that goes in your "about" scene
Nov 04 22:00:38 <Adora> edit at the top, help at the bottom, preferences and/or accounts directly above help
Nov 04 22:00:55 <Adora> rick:  there's no standard format, there just has to be some way to contact the developer
Nov 04 22:00:57 <Adora> dassit
Nov 04 22:01:05 <Rick_work> Adora  not true
Nov 04 22:01:12 <Adora> yes true
Nov 04 22:01:18 <sugardave> haha
Nov 04 22:01:23 <Adora> and if you've experienced otherwise, please let me know  =]
Nov 04 22:01:25 * sugardave gets the popcorn.
Nov 04 22:01:47 <Rick_work> not only is there a standard,  but as of 1.3.1,  the standard help scene is auto-generated from the json file
Nov 04 22:01:48 <Adora> <--- palm app review team
Nov 04 22:02:07 <destinal> Adora: I remember you from the Dev Camp videos, did you hire on at Palm after that?
Nov 04 22:02:19 <sugardave> Adora: oh really?  that's great!  can you tell me when my app update is going to hit? *wink wink*
Nov 04 22:02:21 <Adora> destinal:  yep! been here about three weeks now
Nov 04 22:02:32 <destinal> Adora: congratulations on the new position then :)
Nov 04 22:02:34 <Rick_work> Adora -- that's nice.   I certainly -was- rejected because my help scene wasn't "standard."   Now,  i admit that's a long time ago.
Nov 04 22:02:39 <MetaView> sugardave: my apps doesn't have an app menu in the help/support view
Nov 04 22:02:50 <sugardave> MetaView: I think you need one
Nov 04 22:03:00 <Rick_work> MetaView  I've been bounced 3 times for that.
Nov 04 22:03:07 <destinal> Adora: and I don't remember which app Oil referred to, I think it was "Blocked", but I could be wrong
Nov 04 22:03:15 <MetaView> mh, both are accepted
Nov 04 22:03:20 <Adora> metaview:  there should be, though
Nov 04 22:03:23 <sugardave> destinal: I think it was Blocked, too
Nov 04 22:03:29 <Adora> we probably just didn't notice, hehehe
Nov 04 22:03:30 <ElVox> haha, i was helping this user "adola" on ##javascript who was clueless about javascript (post-increment confused it) and I just realized it wasn't you "adora" :D
Nov 04 22:04:12 <Flashpass> wow vzw doubling ETF
Nov 04 22:04:18 <Adora> rick: policies have become a lot more standardized in the past month or so
Nov 04 22:04:42 <MetaView> ok, I'll check other apps
Nov 04 22:04:50 <Rick_work> Adora accepted.   Is it still "TWO ways to contact the developer" ?  email or phone or web  pick any 2?
Nov 04 22:05:04 <Adora> it's news to me that 1.3.1 auto-generates the "standard" scene, but to my  knowledge you're still not forced to use that format
Nov 04 22:05:08 <Giotto> any way to read those policies?
Nov 04 22:05:18 <Giotto> to know what to look out for / fix before submitting
Nov 04 22:05:23 <Rick_work> Giotto  they're on developer.palm.com
Nov 04 22:05:30 <Adora> rick:  I've never heard two, just one
Nov 04 22:05:31 <MetaView> ok, Accuradio has a help menu item in the help screen -> makes the stack run full with help scenes :D
Nov 04 22:05:32 <Giotto> kk
Nov 04 22:05:33 <sugardave> Rick_work: it WAS 1 way when I submitted Mind Master
Nov 04 22:05:57 <Adora> email, website, get satisfaction page, launch a carrier pigeon, whatever
Nov 04 22:06:12 <sugardave> "pound sand" is strangely absent
Nov 04 22:06:33 <Rick_work> Giotto  http://developer.palm.com/images/palm/pdf/palm_webos_hi_guidelines.pdf
Nov 04 22:06:39 <MetaView> adding another way to contact the author: buying him a beer
Nov 04 22:06:50 <Adora> giotto:  there's a checklist on there, too
Nov 04 22:06:52 <Adora> let me dig it up
Nov 04 22:06:59 <destinal> MetaView: the beer transfer protocol support is strangely absent in webos
Nov 04 22:07:39 <Adora> destinal:  yeah!  I filed a bug report on that ages go
Nov 04 22:07:40 <Rick_work> http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1527
Nov 04 22:07:43 <Adora> * ago
Nov 04 22:08:08 <Adora> Rick_work:  ahh, that's it.  thanks!
Nov 04 22:08:23 <Giotto> thanks!
Nov 04 22:10:59 <Rick_work> Adora is the queue getting smaller?
Nov 04 22:11:17 <Rick_work> and have they made any progress in moving towards FIFO on the queue?
Nov 04 22:13:35 <Adora> "we are continually improving our app review process"
Nov 04 22:13:38 <Adora> next question  =]
Nov 04 22:14:06 <Rick_work> thank you so MUCH.
Nov 04 22:14:15 <Roy-Pre101> Adora: So, what do you think?  will Palm give me a host for webos101.com? :)
Nov 04 22:14:53 <Rick_work> Adora,  if I have christmas themed apps into the queue by this coming Friday, and if Judy knows, and leans on them, do you think there is a chance that we can have them out by Thanksgiving if they are compliant?
Nov 04 22:15:57 <Adora> ahh, you must be rboatright!
Nov 04 22:16:06 <Rick_work> I am.  :-)
Nov 04 22:16:08 <Adora> hehehe
Nov 04 22:16:22 <Roy-Pre101> Oh craps, themed apps!  I gotta get that fixed up.
Nov 04 22:16:30 <Rick_work> Don't tell me,  short, perky young woman,  long brunette hair.
Nov 04 22:16:35 <Rick_work> :-)
Nov 04 22:16:42 <Adora> something like that
Nov 04 22:16:59 <Rick_work> Pleasure to chat with you again.
Nov 04 22:17:09 <Adora> I wouldn't take the description much further than that, though...don't wanna get the chan all rilled up
Nov 04 22:17:16 <Roy-Pre101> Rick_work: Did you notice how she was winking at me all the time.  Turns out she just had something in her eye.  Sheesh.
Nov 04 22:17:47 <Adora> rick:  same  =]
Nov 04 22:17:55 <Adora> but yeah, judy'll whip on us
Nov 04 22:18:05 <Adora> I expect it'll be fine
Nov 04 22:18:20 <Rick_work> I have seldom met someone as overall  pleasant and cheerful at a business expo.  You lit the room.
Nov 04 22:18:35 <Adora> Roy-Pre101:  I don't know what you're talking about  ;)
Nov 04 22:18:49 <Roy-Pre101> There she goes again!
Nov 04 22:18:55 <Adora> awwh, now you're gonna  make me blush
Nov 04 22:21:23 <Roy-Pre101> Hah, there's a Lisa Brewster fanclub on Facebook
Nov 04 22:23:48 <Giotto> haha
Nov 04 22:27:37 <sugardave> Rick_work: I don't know if you saw my later entries last night...turns out there is no such method 'openUrl'...it's 'openURL'....works MUCH better :p
Nov 04 22:31:58 <Giotto> haha, just joined the "Lisa Brewster Fan Club". looks nice next to the "Adriana Lima appreciation Club" in the listing :)
Nov 04 22:32:34 * Adora facepalm
Nov 04 22:32:39 <Adora> it's...a long story
Nov 04 22:32:45 <ElVox> i wish we had "fuzzy" programming. as long as you are close enough it should work. if a class has 3 methods: [run, delete, create] and I do class.del() the computer should have a pretty good idea that I am not trying to access "create"...I will call it emergent development
Nov 04 22:33:00 <Adora> something I did when I was auditioning for Mahalo Daily
Nov 04 22:33:03 <Roy-Pre101> We've all got time.
Nov 04 22:33:18 <Roy-Pre101> I mean, we're on _IRC_ after all.
Nov 04 22:33:25 <Adora> not me!  you guys keep sending me all these apps to review...  *snort*
Nov 04 22:33:32 <sugardave> were hula skirts and coconut bras involved?
Nov 04 22:33:54 <Roy-Pre101> Defcon dunk tank?
Nov 04 22:33:56 <ElVox> ...the skipper too...
Nov 04 22:34:09 <Adora> ok, now the dunk tank was freaking fun
Nov 04 22:34:31 <Adora> next time I go to defcon, I'd be happy spending all day there
Nov 04 22:35:06 <Adora> I think DT dunked me, too
Nov 04 22:35:32 <Rick_work> the next time you go to defcon you'll have a phalanx of palm dev fanboys following you.
Nov 04 22:36:33 <sugardave> okay here's an app review question: when we update an app, does it get reviewed by the same reviewer, or are they randomly assigned?
Nov 04 22:37:11 <Giotto> we've just submitted an update to apple changing 1 character in the code. wondering how fast it'll be accepted :P
Nov 04 22:37:18 <Adora> sugardave: there's no set process at this point
Nov 04 22:37:31 <Adora> depends on what else we're working on when you resubmit
Nov 04 22:37:41 <Adora> and how long it takes you to resubmit
Nov 04 22:37:50 <sugardave> I was really pulling for you to get out of the negatives on the leaderboard
Nov 04 22:38:04 <Adora> like if you resubmit the same day, the same reviewer will probably pick it up
Nov 04 22:38:15 <ElVox> adora, do you guys really review apps or is there just a big dart board with all the submission on the wall and you each get 3 darts a day to fling at it?
Nov 04 22:38:18 <sugardave> right, mine was about 4 days later
Nov 04 22:38:22 <Adora> if you email us, 'cause we don't get a notification that you've resubmitted
Nov 04 22:38:55 <Adora> elvox:  more like pin the tail on the chuq
Nov 04 22:39:02 <sugardave> but if it says 'being reviewed' does that mean it has been picked up by someone?
Nov 04 22:39:03 <Adora> and let me tell ya, that guy sure is wiggly
Nov 04 22:39:05 <ElVox> see, now that does sound like fun!
Nov 04 22:39:49 <Adora> sugardave:  not currently, and we're working on that
Nov 04 22:39:59 <sugardave> okay
Nov 04 22:40:06 * sugardave waits.
Nov 04 22:40:26 <destinal> Adora: defcon is usually fun.  I do information security for a living, run an OWASP chapter, have spoken at defcon in the past.  already looking forward to next year :)
Nov 04 22:43:17 <ElVox> i noticed that there are almost no palm ads anymore...what happened to the hypnotic blond alien girl?
Nov 04 22:43:34 <destinal> ElVox: she was retrieved by the mothership
Nov 04 22:43:45 <Roy-Pre101> ElVox: I've seen a -ton- of palm ads lately.
Nov 04 22:44:12 <Adora> Roy-Pre101: but were they creepy girl ads?
Nov 04 22:44:19 <ElVox> really? around here (NY metro area) they kind of dried up. I see lots of droid commercials though
Nov 04 22:44:27 <Roy-Pre101> Adora: Think so.
Nov 04 22:50:12 <ElVox> you guys should do a series of commercials like "In a Palm world..." where you show the people what life would be like if everything were designed by Palm. Doors that unlock and open with swipe gestures, art museums where the people can get a bigger view of the art by "zooming" with their fingers...
Nov 04 22:50:53 <Giotto> that actually sounds cool
Nov 04 22:51:06 <Roy-Pre101> ElVox: woo, I like it.
Nov 04 22:51:39 <Giotto> brb, going for a swim
Nov 04 22:51:51 <hcatlin> hey, i'm out of the country
Nov 04 22:51:58 <hcatlin> can anyone tell me how Color Puzzle is ranking in sales?
Nov 04 22:52:03 <hcatlin> i'd really appreciate it
Nov 04 22:52:14 <Adora> hcatlin: send an email to chuq@palm.com
Nov 04 22:53:09 <Roy-Pre101> hcatlin: Or you can install the see download #'s patch.
Nov 04 22:53:22 <Roy-Pre101> At let poor Chuq catch up on his other stuff.
Nov 04 22:53:37 <Adora> Roy-Pre101: dude, there's a patch for that?
Nov 04 22:53:38 <Adora> hahaha
Nov 04 22:53:38 <hcatlin> Adora: I'll call Jonathan Sherman there, who i've been in contact with.
Nov 04 22:57:12 <hcatlin> so yeah, i'll take all that as a "no" ;)
Nov 04 22:57:20 <hcatlin> damnit, jonathan isn't in
Nov 04 23:00:29 <ElVox> BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG BONG
Nov 04 23:01:02 <sugardave> lol
Nov 04 23:01:21 <ElVox> you know I have gone completely 180 on that twitter account
Nov 04 23:01:54 <pandora--> how so?
Nov 04 23:02:10 <sugardave> greatest twitter account evar?
Nov 04 23:03:04 <sugardave> Adora: so, for now do you gals/guys only update apps in the catalog once per day?
Nov 04 23:03:09 <ElVox> i think, i might be starting to get it - big_ben_clock is actual bonafide information in a sea of vapid bullshit. it is one of the feeds that tell us something. It is a micro-database that is able to be hit from any computer (with a net connection) on earth.
Nov 04 23:03:12 <sugardave> or once whenever
Nov 04 23:03:13 <sugardave> ?
Nov 04 23:03:58 <Adora> there's really no set schedule
Nov 04 23:04:35 <pandora--> i love that with sprint I have automatic billing on my account, and I'm past due $228
Nov 04 23:04:38 <sugardave> my question is bad: I mean, when there are apps to update, does it only happen once that day, or can apps keep trickling in during that day?
Nov 04 23:04:40 <pandora--> yes. i love you too sprint.
Nov 04 23:04:55 <pandora--> fucktard sprint. damnit. hate you
Nov 04 23:05:16 <pandora--> er, f**ktard. sorry
Nov 04 23:05:21 <sugardave> hahaha
Nov 04 23:05:29 <Adora> really...the magic hamster wheel of apps can spin at any time
Nov 04 23:05:46 <sugardave> alright, good enough
Nov 04 23:05:48 <pandora--> automatic billing. $228 overdue. WTF. i don't get it
Nov 04 23:06:18 <sugardave> pandora--: maybe there was a processing problem the day they tried to take it
Nov 04 23:06:43 <pandora--> when i go to pay manually it says "You're already enrolled in automatic billing!"
Nov 04 23:06:43 <Adora> I'm actually not trying to be coy, btw
Nov 04 23:06:52 <sugardave> no, I understand
Nov 04 23:06:56 <ElVox> not *trying*
Nov 04 23:07:02 <Adora> just making sure  =]
Nov 04 23:07:10 <pandora--> sugardave: and i spent 30min on the phone with them last month about this
Nov 04 23:07:25 <sugardave> pandora--: ah, that's it....they miss talking to yuou
Nov 04 23:07:31 <sugardave> s/yuou/you/
Nov 04 23:07:45 <pandora--> i know, its been an entire week since i've had to call them, so far... a record
Nov 04 23:07:52 <pandora--> and i wish that wasn't actually true
Nov 04 23:07:54 <pandora--> *sigh*
Nov 04 23:07:57 * pandora-- goes to call
Nov 04 23:08:06 <ElVox> Sprint: To our competitors.
Nov 04 23:09:03 <pandora--> at least now that they sent me the Airave, I won't drop calls while i'm talking to sprint customer service
Nov 04 23:09:13 <ElVox> lol
Nov 04 23:09:25 <pandora--> hate them.
Nov 04 23:09:45 <ElVox> i hate att, the company, but I love att the service.
Nov 04 23:20:46 <ElVox> anyone now when blueswitch is having their next palm webos developers meetup in NYC?
Nov 04 23:22:25 <pandora--> escalating to a manager
Nov 04 23:22:28 <pandora--> omg
Nov 04 23:22:33 <pandora--> whyyyyyyyyyyy
Nov 04 23:38:54 <Rick_work> on my way home
Nov 04 23:41:56 <Roy-Pre101> I'll put a pot of tea on.
Nov 04 23:41:59 <sugardave> hey, this dropbox thing is pretty cool
Nov 04 23:42:20 <bmyers> i have a unique DIV img in a list. what should i look at in listTapEvent to find what DIV was tapped in the list?
Nov 04 23:42:35 <bmyers> listTapEvent is a huge object
Nov 04 23:42:40 <sugardave> event.target?
Nov 04 23:42:55 <Roy-Pre101> maybe event.originalEvent.target.
Nov 04 23:42:59 <sugardave> that one
Nov 04 23:43:10 <Roy-Pre101> I don't think that's on the wiki.
Nov 04 23:43:12 <bmyers> event.target is the listitem isnt it?
Nov 04 23:43:24 <sugardave> it's the one Roy-Pre101 just said
Nov 04 23:43:28 <bmyers> this is a DIV img in the list
Nov 04 23:43:31 <bmyers> o
Nov 04 23:43:43 <Roy-Pre101> Quick survey:  For holiday/xmas app:  Stick with XMas theme or make it multi-cultural?
Nov 04 23:43:44 <bmyers> thanks. i'll try that one..
Nov 04 23:44:08 <sugardave> Roy-Pre101: Xmas, then change app-info for another one
Nov 04 23:44:12 <sugardave> repeat
Nov 04 23:44:16 <bmyers> do whatever you like and be happy..
Nov 04 23:44:21 <Roy-Pre101> Have to make 2x as many images, tho.
Nov 04 23:44:32 <sugardave> well, yeah...
Nov 04 23:45:27 <Roy-Pre101> Seriously, there are more ways to spell Hanukkah than there are images for it!
Nov 04 23:45:37 <sugardave> but not if you were going to be ameliorating them into some multi-cultural stew anyway
Nov 04 23:45:50 <scooter26> Roy - yeah - make that a preference ;)
Nov 04 23:45:55 <sugardave> hahaha
Nov 04 23:47:09 <Roy-Pre101> I'd need 18 images for each set.
Nov 04 23:47:16 <Roy-Pre101> Hmm...
Nov 04 23:47:34 <Roy-Pre101> If I were clever I could get 9 images from the Menorah alone!
Nov 04 23:47:44 <Roy-Pre101> muhahaha.
Nov 04 23:51:45 <sugardave> see?  now what about Festivus?
Nov 04 23:55:14 <pandora--> heh
Nov 04 23:58:15 <bmyers> ok, i'll bite.. what the heck r u working on?
Nov 05 00:03:58 <sugardave> sounds like Roy-Pre101's trying to cash in on some holiday-themed action
Nov 05 00:04:13 <bmyers> gift list organizer?
Nov 05 00:04:51 <Giotto> babyshaker for the pre with a christmas theme?
Nov 05 00:05:05 <bmyers> webos ule log
Nov 05 00:05:19 <bmyers> ^^^^ trademarked..
Nov 05 00:09:52 <sugardave> okay, I want to make sure I understand this...when I look at the API docs for Mojo.Animation.Queue (just an example) and it lists a parameter 'animation' object....that animation object is what is described by the Mojo.Animation API doc?
Nov 05 00:13:12 <Roy-Pre101> sugardave: Search me!  Hope you're documenting it.  I've never tried to use the Mojo animations.  How do they look?
Nov 05 00:14:00 <sugardave> and I assume that Palm is using the "pretend" constructor pattern and since Mojo.Animation is capped, you make a new object with 'new Mojo.Animation();' ?
Nov 05 00:14:16 <sugardave> Roy-Pre101: unknown, I'm just looking at some stuff
Nov 05 00:16:06 <almendoza25> just a quick question. For app submission, do we need to send screenshots of the app along with the ipk?
Nov 05 00:16:19 <sugardave> yes
Nov 05 00:16:42 <almendoza25> thx!
Nov 05 00:16:45 <sugardave> np
Nov 05 00:23:12 <incidentist> sugardave: taht's what my guts are telling me from looking at the docs, but i don't know for sure either :\
Nov 05 00:23:38 <incidentist> documenting return values in an API reference: a novel concept!
Nov 05 00:23:55 <pandora--> heh
Nov 05 00:37:18 <bmyers> picky picky..
Nov 05 00:37:43 <_droO> anyone good with ajax?
Nov 05 00:38:23 <incidentist> _droO: watcha need? no promises.
Nov 05 00:38:48 <_droO> whats the best way to send repeated post requests to a specific url
Nov 05 00:38:57 <_droO> just set it up on an interval? or is there a better way
Nov 05 00:39:15 <datafirm> why are you sending these in a repeated fashion?
Nov 05 00:39:26 <_droO> because it needs to keep updating the responses
Nov 05 00:39:32 <_droO> and thats how server is sending me data :)
Nov 05 00:40:02 <_droO> so basically i need to send a post request every 3-4 seconds probably & parse the json responses
Nov 05 00:40:02 <datafirm> yes, setInterval() would probably be best.. just be sure to cancel the listener when you pop the event.
Nov 05 00:40:08 <datafirm> as to not have a memory leak
Nov 05 00:40:12 <_droO> ok, so use a listener
Nov 05 00:40:17 <_droO> i wasnt sure if it would be best to do that
Nov 05 00:40:21 <datafirm> you should wait for the response before you send another though?
Nov 05 00:40:24 <_droO> or just loop request on an interval
Nov 05 00:40:28 <datafirm> otherwise you could get a leak as well
Nov 05 00:40:32 <_droO> well thats true also
Nov 05 00:40:50 <datafirm> id send the request.. wait for response.. then do a delayed call
Nov 05 00:41:31 <_droO> so just send request
Nov 05 00:41:40 <_droO> and onSuccess send another delayed request?
Nov 05 00:41:41 <datafirm> Mojo has a delated function call you can use
Nov 05 00:41:47 <_droO> and basically loop through it til onFailure
Nov 05 00:41:47 <_droO> ?
Nov 05 00:41:51 <datafirm> yeah.. that would be a  good idea
Nov 05 00:42:26 <_droO> do you know what mojo function you were refering to?
Nov 05 00:42:28 <datafirm> thsi may help ypu
Nov 05 00:42:28 <datafirm> http://developer.palm.com/palm-sdk/jsdoc/symbols/Mojo.Function.html
Nov 05 00:42:30 <datafirm> debounce
Nov 05 00:42:43 <datafirm> or setTimeout
Nov 05 00:42:55 <datafirm> so there is no recurring call.. just a delayed on to make your request again.
Nov 05 00:43:02 <datafirm> upon success or timeout of course.
Nov 05 00:43:33 <_droO> ok, and its pretty easy converting multiple json items to text right?
Nov 05 00:43:37 <_droO> (from responses)
Nov 05 00:43:46 <datafirm> sure.
Nov 05 00:43:56 <datafirm> for in loop or use Prototype.. or your library of choice.
Nov 05 00:44:01 <diov> does anyone know how to create commandMenu buttons
Nov 05 00:44:02 <_droO> currently im only doing the inital request
Nov 05 00:44:03 <datafirm> I prefer Ext Core ;)
Nov 05 00:44:04 <_droO> to grab an id
Nov 05 00:44:11 <_droO> and then i need to loop posts to another url using the id
Nov 05 00:44:12 <_droO> ;o
Nov 05 00:44:26 <datafirm> hm
Nov 05 00:44:42 <_droO> and i can successfully grab the id from the 1st post & parse it to text
Nov 05 00:44:50 <incidentist> _droO: i would wait until the response is processed before sending another (delayed) request
Nov 05 00:45:33 <_droO> what about using onSuccess to call a function that after a delay calls the original function again
Nov 05 00:45:35 <datafirm> exactly.. or you're almost guarentted to eat a lot of memory ;)
Nov 05 00:46:03 <_droO> and ill parse the info 1st before calling it again
Nov 05 00:46:20 <_droO> ya, im hoping that wont be the case ;o
Nov 05 00:46:22 <incidentist> _droO: yep, that'd work
Nov 05 00:46:27 <_droO> since i need to do a lot of requests ;o
Nov 05 00:46:36 <_droO> and they need to be aprox 3-5 seconds between
Nov 05 00:46:37 <_droO> i believe
Nov 05 00:46:49 <_droO> to check for updated information
Nov 05 00:46:59 <datafirm> I created a request proxy class to do something similar.
Nov 05 00:47:23 <datafirm> allowing me to manipluate the data before its sent back to the handlers.
Nov 05 00:47:30 <_droO> with mojo?
Nov 05 00:47:33 <_droO> how much of a pita was it
Nov 05 00:47:47 <incidentist> prototype has kind of an interesting function called decayingInterval or something, where it sends a request, and if the response is the same as the last request, it waits a little longer than it did last time before sending the next request. just fyi.
Nov 05 00:48:01 <_droO> hm
Nov 05 00:48:04 <_droO> that sounds neat actually :o
Nov 05 00:48:43 <_droO> has anyone emailed opensource@palm.com ?
Nov 05 00:48:43 <incidentist> the problem with all those interval functions is that if it gets back a response to be processed before the previous response has finished processing, you get Issues.
Nov 05 00:48:46 <_droO> with requests
Nov 05 00:50:38 <sugardave> omg, have some stuff to post to webos101 and it wants to be a little bitch and not respond
Nov 05 00:52:47 <bmyers> another list question..
Nov 05 00:53:12 <bmyers> its a collapsible list like the one in stylematters
Nov 05 00:53:30 <bmyers> i select something from the list and push a scene
Nov 05 00:53:47 <bmyers> that scene changes the model from the list
Nov 05 00:54:05 <bmyers> when i pop back to the list and change the model i scrolled all wrong
Nov 05 00:54:23 <bmyers> is there a "just scroll to the top" method somewhere?
Nov 05 00:54:37 <sugardave> there's something like a scrollTo
Nov 05 00:54:39 <_droO> ya
Nov 05 00:54:44 <sugardave> for scenes and what not, I think for any scroller
Nov 05 00:54:44 <_droO> h/o ill find it
Nov 05 00:54:47 <bmyers> scrollTo 0?
Nov 05 00:55:12 <bmyers> first you gotta get the scroller object tho right?
Nov 05 00:55:41 <_droO> ya, fuck thats going to be a bitch ;o
Nov 05 00:55:47 <_droO> ive only used just the scene scroller
Nov 05 00:56:40 <_droO> or maybe not, is it only 1 collapsable list?
Nov 05 00:56:42 <_droO> or multiple
Nov 05 00:56:52 <bmyers> 1 list
Nov 05 00:57:06 <bmyers> collapsible.. yeah
Nov 05 00:57:40 <bmyers> i tried this: scroller.mojo.revealTop;
Nov 05 00:58:10 <bmyers> but i get: scroller is not defined
Nov 05 00:58:27 <bmyers> o wait.. i gotta get the object first huh?
Nov 05 00:58:30 <_droO> yep
Nov 05 00:58:31 <_droO> http://developer.palm.com/palm-sdk/jsdoc/symbols/Mojo.Widget.html#.Scroller
Nov 05 00:58:35 <_droO> i was just going to say that
Nov 05 00:58:42 <bmyers> shoot...
Nov 05 00:58:49 <_droO> since ur not using scene scroller you have to set a scroller widget around the list
Nov 05 00:59:48 <bmyers> thx for the url...
Nov 05 01:00:09 <_droO> np, ive found it helpful :o
Nov 05 01:01:10 <bmyers> yes..
Nov 05 01:02:43 <bmyers> One is installed automatically in every scene
Nov 05 01:03:06 <_droO> yes, a scene scroller
Nov 05 01:03:10 <_droO> but it scrolls the entire scene
Nov 05 01:03:45 <bmyers> so whats the name of it?
Nov 05 01:04:06 <incidentist> bmyers: also look at Mojo.View.getScrollerForElement()
Nov 05 01:04:08 <_droO> hold on ;o gotta turn on dev box n check code D;
Nov 05 01:04:29 <incidentist> http://developer.palm.com/palm-sdk/jsdoc/symbols/Mojo.View.html#.getScrollerForElement
Nov 05 01:04:57 <bmyers> it's the scene scroller that i need to reset
Nov 05 01:05:00 <bmyers> log said DIV#mojo-scene-test-scene-scroller
Nov 05 01:05:38 <incidentist> Mojo.View.getScrollerForElement(this.controller.sceneElement)
Nov 05 01:06:15 <_droO> you can do like
Nov 05 01:06:33 <_droO> var scroller = this.controller.getSceneScroller()
Nov 05 01:06:44 <_droO> and then scroller.scrollTop
Nov 05 01:06:46 <_droO> or whatever u wanna do
Nov 05 01:07:04 <incidentist> i thought it was revealTop()
Nov 05 01:07:18 <_droO> scrollTop lets you set distance
Nov 05 01:07:26 <_droO> there is revealTop & revealBottom tho too
Nov 05 01:07:27 <_droO> i think
Nov 05 01:08:32 <bmyers> Thx! lemme try it..
Nov 05 01:17:33 <bmyers> works like a champ! thank you so much... thats been holding me up..
Nov 05 01:17:41 <bmyers> i was so close..
Nov 05 01:18:28 <_droO> :D
Nov 05 01:19:38 <jauderho> has anyone successfully played m4v files on the pre (converted with quicktime player x)?
Nov 05 01:25:45 <pandora--> you know, the app catalog submission, only prohibits "full nudity"
Nov 05 01:25:49 <pandora--> intentional loophole?
Nov 05 01:26:06 <pandora--> The application does not contain content that is pornographic or obscene, contains full nudity, or is strongly sexual (explicit depictions of sexual behavior).
Nov 05 01:26:27 <pandora--> sounds like a lone innocent boob is greenlight. no?
Nov 05 01:26:38 * ElVox scratches his plans for a "girls eating ice cream" app
Nov 05 01:26:48 <_droO> this is a stupid js question, but a var declared in scene assistant setup or before should be 'visible' i guess to any functions within the scene assistant?
Nov 05 01:31:56 <destinal> pandora--: depends on if it's pornographic.  and of course there would be a difference between *containing* said content and *retrieving* said content over a network
Nov 05 01:32:47 <destinal> obviously a web browser can be used to retrieve pornographic content, but doesn't contain it as such, but I suppose much would depend on designed intention
Nov 05 01:33:19 <pandora--> true true
Nov 05 01:33:52 <pandora--> and i guess it's a little subjective and context-relative on whether or not a breast is pornographic or not.
Nov 05 01:35:51 <sugardave> pandora--: no, I did not see that
Nov 05 01:36:40 <sugardave> _droO: technically, yes
Nov 05 01:37:07 <_droO> is there a better way to store like a global variable?
Nov 05 01:37:16 <_droO> well not even global i guess, just within the entire scene assistant
Nov 05 01:37:34 <sugardave> declare it in the constructor?
Nov 05 01:38:21 <sugardave> it also depends on what you want to store...some stuff (controller) isn't available until setup
Nov 05 01:39:03 <_droO> ya
Nov 05 01:39:22 <_droO> but if i declare in setup, it should be able to be set by any function in that scene right?
Nov 05 01:39:27 <_droO> and viewed?
Nov 05 01:39:47 <sugardave> btw, all, a VERY SIMPLE WebView widget example up at webos101: http://webos101.com/WebView
Nov 05 01:40:04 <sugardave> feel free to extend
Nov 05 01:42:58 <incidentist> _droO: as long as, wehn you say "declare a var", you mean "this.whatever = myStuff" rather than "var whatever = myStuff", which is only local to the function.
Nov 05 01:43:14 <_droO> oh :] ok, i think thats where i was fucking up ;o
Nov 05 01:45:44 <balrog-k1n> has anyone seen any app for viewing or possibly even editing openstreetmap maps?
Nov 05 01:46:05 <incidentist> var whatever = myStuff; // local to function body and any other functions defined within the function body
Nov 05 01:46:05 <balrog-k1n> also, anything to record GPS traces that doesn't require an internet connection?
Nov 05 01:46:20 <incidentist> this.whatever = mystuff; // visible to all functions in that object
Nov 05 01:46:52 <incidentist> whatever = myStuff; // sets whatever as a global variable, visible everywhere. equivalent to window.whatever = myStuff;
Nov 05 01:46:59 <incidentist> _droO: ^^^
Nov 05 01:47:03 <balrog-k1n> var xxx; is local to the nearest pair of {} only, i believe
Nov 05 01:47:23 <balrog-k1n> not necessarily a function body
Nov 05 01:49:01 <incidentist> balrog-k1n: no, i don't think that's right. erg, why's my o'reilly book so faaar awaaaay?
Nov 05 01:49:26 * balrog-k1n checks
Nov 05 01:49:46 <balrog-k1n> oops, you might be right
Nov 05 01:51:04 <balrog-k1n> i guess i had assumed it because of C and C++
Nov 05 01:52:31 <incidentist> haha, in general taht's a bad assumption. javascript is wily!
Nov 05 01:53:31 <incidentist> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference/Statements/block
Nov 05 01:53:32 <scooter26> you are claiming that bracket scoping {} doesn't apply to javascript?
Nov 05 01:53:59 <balrog-k1n> scooter26: my firefox javascript console also thinks it doesn't
Nov 05 01:54:13 <incidentist> but there are let statements in js1.5 that allow for something like block-level scope. not sure if that's in webOS.
Nov 05 01:54:29 <scooter26> interesting
Nov 05 02:01:09 <balrog-k1n> so what does everyone use for recording GPS traces?
Nov 05 02:06:06 <pandora--> balrog-k1n: Garmin Edge 305
Nov 05 02:06:08 <pandora--> :)
Nov 05 02:07:13 <balrog-k1n> ;)
Nov 05 02:07:44 <balrog-k1n> are there any stats about the accuracy of the Pre's gps yet?
Nov 05 02:09:55 <punzada> It was nice hearing from the precast last night that pre has standalone gps, I remember my windows mobile phone while roaming in vermont being useless as gps
Nov 05 02:13:07 <sugardave> everyone remember: javascript does NOT have block scope
Nov 05 02:13:41 <sugardave> javascript DOES have function scope
Nov 05 02:13:59 * ElVox snickers
Nov 05 02:14:03 <punzada> coming from c++ it's still odd to think of everything as an object. >>
Nov 05 02:14:04 * balrog-k1n writes it on the blackboard 5 times
Nov 05 02:14:15 <sugardave> lol
Nov 05 02:15:24 <ElVox> that is one of the first things i learned about javascript: "var i = 0;  if (true) { var i = 1; }"  => i = 1;
Nov 05 02:17:56 <sugardave> punzada: apparently, the one advantage I have in learning JavaScript is that it's only the second language I've ever really done anything in after Pascal :D
Nov 05 02:18:48 <punzada> it's okay, I was never a good enough developer in c++
Nov 05 02:18:54 <punzada> despite it brainwashing me
Nov 05 02:18:56 <scooter26> ElVox: I loose some respect for javascript when I see that - but I come from a C/C++ background
Nov 05 02:20:08 <sugardave> scooter26: have you looked at Douglas Crockford's book?  I try to implement some of his 'durable objects' methodology in some of my stuff
Nov 05 02:20:24 <sugardave> kind of helps with the whole "is my variable global or not" thoughts
Nov 05 02:21:01 <scooter26> nope
Nov 05 02:21:21 <sugardave> it's worthwhile....JavaScript: The Good Parts
Nov 05 02:21:25 <Giotto> rere
Nov 05 02:22:19 <Giotto> read that a couple of weeks ago, highly recommended
Nov 05 02:22:24 <Giotto> I was totally wrong on the variable scope
Nov 05 02:22:47 <ElVox> http://www.slideshare.net/nzakas/speed-up-your-javascript
Nov 05 02:23:05 <ElVox> page 12 talks about scope chains
Nov 05 02:23:11 <ElVox> and their impact on performance
Nov 05 02:24:01 <JenP> hi all!
Nov 05 02:24:08 <sugardave> hi JenP
Nov 05 02:24:09 <ElVox> when you see that you will get why there is no block-level scoping - it would double the number of link-list elements to walk through to find the right value.
Nov 05 02:24:12 * punzada read 'the good parts' as well.
Nov 05 02:24:19 <JenP> hey sugardave!
Nov 05 02:24:28 <bmyers> hey Jenp
Nov 05 02:24:33 <JenP> hiya
Nov 05 02:24:56 <bmyers> whats shakin'
Nov 05 02:25:07 <JenP> lol not much...
Nov 05 02:25:15 <JenP> what's the topic for tonight?
Nov 05 02:25:21 <bmyers> SHOES!!
Nov 05 02:25:36 <JenP> YEAH!!!!
Nov 05 02:25:41 <JenP> LOL
Nov 05 02:25:47 <JenP> ahhhh i missed you guys
Nov 05 02:26:00 <sugardave> aw jeez, not shoes again
Nov 05 02:26:06 <bmyers> we had a real palm person here today
Nov 05 02:26:10 <sugardave> where have you been, Jen?
Nov 05 02:27:31 <JenP> stupid job
Nov 05 02:27:42 <JenP> smiles...
Nov 05 02:27:44 * sugardave has been avoiding his as much as possible.
Nov 05 02:27:52 <JenP> lol...i'm not that lucky
Nov 05 02:28:02 <JenP> all my deadlines hit over the next 6 weeks
Nov 05 02:28:10 <JenP> so we have palm person?
Nov 05 02:28:12 <JenP> very cool
Nov 05 02:28:24 <JenP> hello palm person!
Nov 05 02:28:40 <scooter26> anyone know how many developers there are at palm?
Nov 05 02:28:49 <sugardave> yes, I have deadlines approaching...I may actually have to do real work sometime soon
Nov 05 02:28:56 <bmyers> ew!
Nov 05 02:29:10 <sugardave> I know, right?
Nov 05 02:29:13 <bmyers> with deliverables?
Nov 05 02:29:37 <JenP> lol
Nov 05 02:29:46 <bmyers> is it something like "do you want fries with that?"
Nov 05 02:30:01 <datafirm> anyway to parse XML in mojo?
Nov 05 02:30:07 <JenP> lol i wish...that would make things so much easier
Nov 05 02:30:18 <datafirm> document.evaluate does not seem to be supported
Nov 05 02:30:19 <bmyers> right..
Nov 05 02:30:21 <JenP> datafirm...what kind of parsing?
Nov 05 02:30:47 <sugardave> hey man, with a combination of the right apps, subscriptions, and ad models, I'd seriously consider taking a part-time gig at Game Stop or something
Nov 05 02:31:03 <datafirm> xpath
Nov 05 02:31:54 <bmyers> sugardave: me too. I'm tired of old ladies sticking dollars in my g-string just to pay the bills..
Nov 05 02:31:57 <sugardave> datafirm: here's a manual example I think http://www.codestore.net/store.nsf/unid/BLOG-20050420
Nov 05 02:32:06 <sugardave> bmyers: hehe
Nov 05 02:32:08 <datafirm> JenP: xpath or E4x
Nov 05 02:33:43 <datafirm> sugardave: not working for me.  getting an error in webos
Nov 05 02:34:16 <datafirm> "Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected token <"
Nov 05 02:34:37 <datafirm> so right when the xml doctype is presented it barfs.. tried with Ext Core and document.evaluate
Nov 05 02:34:43 <Giotto> bmyers: the ladies and the dollars? it's not that bad as you think :D
Nov 05 02:35:40 <bmyers> its degrading. i am a human being ya know. not just meat on a string..
Nov 05 02:36:08 <sugardave> s/on/in
Nov 05 02:36:59 <Giotto> haha
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Nov 05 02:59:56 2009