**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Nov 22 02:59:57 2009 Nov 22 02:59:58 and that's all or do I have to do something else? Nov 22 03:00:17 that's all you have to do Nov 22 03:00:19 like turn on "realness' at quattro Nov 22 03:00:41 um...I think the way quattro works is once they get a "real" ad request, you're on Nov 22 03:00:49 it may take a few minutes after the first request Nov 22 03:01:35 I will hopefully have Adfonic shored up tonight...took me way too long to fix that pushScene thing :D Nov 22 03:03:12 so, assuming that you do those, is there something that I need to do to enable admob and adfonic ads, or are YOU going to do all that? Nov 22 03:03:46 Rick_work: you will still need to sign up with the networks and then provide the pub/site/whatever details of that network to me Nov 22 03:03:47 and in a related subject, did you see Doc's email on Smaato? Which seems simpler, since they do all the fulfillment stuff FOR YOU.... Nov 22 03:04:00 yeah, but there is one thing I can do with this... Nov 22 03:04:05 nodnod Nov 22 03:04:10 in the off-chance that a dev WANTS a single ad network, they can Nov 22 03:04:19 and then switch them around at will Nov 22 03:04:21 who would be that stupid? Nov 22 03:04:37 I never bet against stupidity Nov 22 03:04:42 good point Nov 22 03:05:35 ok, so I should go sign up with admob and adfonic as well Nov 22 03:05:54 but, I'm also going to support smaato...I can also be another metric for use to determine how many clicks you got, though mine may not be perfect at first Nov 22 03:05:59 You know who is a cool guy, diter Nov 22 03:06:00 *dieter Nov 22 03:06:26 yes he is. Nov 22 03:06:39 although he would be MORE cool if he would push dreidel for me Nov 22 03:06:58 lol Nov 22 03:07:16 I have to convince him that something is good Nov 22 03:08:21 And that it'd be a good idea Nov 22 03:10:35 so, for ad-supported apps....you get paid by ad clicks? Nov 22 03:11:45 yep Nov 22 03:11:52 at a pitifully low rate. Nov 22 03:14:29 haeffb_: if you have a super-awesome-happy app that generates millions of views a month, you can get the lucrative pay-per-impression ads Nov 22 03:15:20 but you have to be super super interesting to the ad folks to get pay-per-view ads. Nov 22 03:15:31 Otherwise you're in the 25 cents per 1000 clicks ghetto Nov 22 03:15:36 yes, indeed Nov 22 03:15:42 ugh. Nov 22 03:16:17 so, you need to be the next bejeweled to get ad-supported to pay Nov 22 03:16:22 Rick_work: here's one reason why someone might want to run a particular network: special bid-for promotions that I've seen come from a couple of them Nov 22 03:17:20 haeffb_: that's about right...or pump out 5-6 mediocres that generate a $100 a month or something Nov 22 03:18:22 haeffb_ you can make ad-supported work in a couple of ways, if you have many tens of thousands of copies out, then a few clicks per ad up fast. Nov 22 03:18:31 and a lot of apps. Nov 22 03:18:35 it can be done Nov 22 03:18:56 Or just be a good programmer... Nov 22 03:19:03 Rick_work: App sent Nov 22 03:19:56 or that Nov 22 03:20:08 since Doc is clearing serious money Nov 22 03:20:29 I wouldn't call it "serious" Nov 22 03:21:31 many would Nov 22 03:22:37 doc = reality9110? Nov 22 03:22:46 Yes sir Nov 22 03:22:49 I think it's serious...that's a lot of shoes! Nov 22 03:22:55 well, hello, doc. Nov 22 03:23:09 lol @ JenP Nov 22 03:23:12 Hello Nov 22 03:25:39 $18000 a year on that app. Nov 22 03:25:55 Certainly not enough for somebody to live off of Nov 22 03:26:25 certainly. but why stop at one? Nov 22 03:26:38 Who said anything about stopping? Nov 22 03:26:42 lol Nov 22 03:27:06 ten of those would be...nice... Nov 22 03:27:59 If, on this next one, I can pull in $0.10 a user per day, then I may retire. Nov 22 03:28:53 Doc has this fantasy about retiring, but the Fed's won't let him. :) Nov 22 03:29:02 No kidding Nov 22 03:29:04 lol Nov 22 03:29:36 bummer. They won't let me carry a machine pistol, either. Nov 22 03:29:47 And I discovered something big on Thursday of last week as well. Nov 22 03:29:56 oh? Nov 22 03:29:57 what's that? Nov 22 03:30:12 So, I at least have to write up this paper. Aiming for Science. Nov 22 03:30:20 Caterpiller cell vaccines will turn people into mutant zombies!!!! Nov 22 03:30:42 Psssh. Like I'd tell you folks about it. Nov 22 03:31:11 ok,ok, not MUTANT zombies, just plain old normal zombies. Nov 22 03:31:15 you can tell me. I'm to f'in lazy to do anything about it. Nov 22 03:31:22 lol...after talking with doc I've become the neighborhood vacination pusher.... Nov 22 03:31:33 If you get your flu shot and start eyeing the back of people's skulls, worry. :-) Nov 22 03:31:35 tell me tell me... Nov 22 03:32:00 me too. WHAT!?!?!?! Your vaccinations aren't up to date? Are you like _stupid_? Nov 22 03:32:02 will it make me smarter? taller? prettier? Nov 22 03:32:09 lol Nov 22 03:32:32 can't make you prettier. Nov 22 03:32:37 No. But it has the potential to save about...oh...300,000+ lives a year Nov 22 03:33:10 Doc, every now and then, I sort of feel that I have wasted my life. :-/ Nov 22 03:33:42 sigh...i agree...suddenly I worry I haven't done enough Nov 22 03:33:56 You're not alone. I was just thinking that the other day as well after 8 months of this work and wasn't getting results. Nov 22 03:34:03 And then...it worked. Nov 22 03:34:14 well, congratulations. Nov 22 03:34:30 awesome! Nov 22 03:34:58 meanwhile, I'm going to remember that I have been improving my customer's lives for 25 years, and that a lot of businesses would have been OUT of business without our work. And that's going to have to be good enough. Nov 22 03:35:05 Well, it means that I have to travel over the holidays. Nov 22 03:35:12 Doc you need to move to San Diego!! Nov 22 03:35:29 We'll see. Nov 22 03:35:42 Scripps has been trying to recruit me for quite some time now. Nov 22 03:36:02 you can come over on Sundays for dinner! Nov 22 03:36:10 That is inconsistant with retirement. Nov 22 03:36:11 Scripps is nice...very nice facility Nov 22 03:36:24 Doc can't retire...his minds to busy Nov 22 03:36:50 plus i'd be affraid what he'd come up with if he had that much free time Nov 22 03:36:59 nodnod Nov 22 03:37:25 I rarely eat out Nov 22 03:38:05 you don't strike me as the soap opra kinda guy Nov 22 03:38:27 "The soap opra guy"? Nov 22 03:38:40 opera mayhaps? Nov 22 03:38:55 yeah those! Nov 22 03:39:29 ahh Nov 22 03:39:32 I keep very odd hours. Nov 22 03:39:38 we've noticed. Nov 22 03:40:28 What can I say? When I have an idea, I have an idea. Nov 22 03:40:30 no, no, "soap Oprah guy" Nov 22 03:41:13 ohhhhh Doc is a closet "days of our lives" fan Nov 22 03:41:41 No. But I am a Law and Order fan Nov 22 03:41:58 criminal minds...! love that show Nov 22 03:42:03 House Nov 22 03:42:09 I cannot stand House. Nov 22 03:42:14 figures Nov 22 03:42:33 hehehe i can't imagine why Nov 22 03:42:39 what makes it intolerable? Nov 22 03:42:59 guy never sees anything but zebras Nov 22 03:43:32 Besides the fact that they just run down a set list of diseases in every single episode? Besides the fact that their clinical analysis is piss poor and medical unsound if not impossible? Nov 22 03:43:43 Numbers drives me nuts, and all the CSI shows. I mean, come on,I know what it takes to program computers,and what they can do. Nov 22 03:43:46 cops probably love House Nov 22 03:44:00 Every tv show about a profession is hated by the members of that profession. Nov 22 03:44:17 they all lie, they all gloss. Nov 22 03:44:18 I totally hate that show about technical educators Nov 22 03:44:26 oh, wait... Nov 22 03:44:40 wait...you mean House isn't real? dammit I'm gonna have to call my grandma Nov 22 03:44:57 House is a soap opra set in a hospital Nov 22 03:45:20 no no Grey's Anatomy is Nov 22 03:45:31 i had no idea dr's hook up that much Nov 22 03:45:40 My favorite thing on CSI is watching them run a fingerprint search. Nov 22 03:45:42 I mean come on. One episode, they are tracing down a protein within a person's body. The girl says, "We just make an antibody against it, label it, and trace the spread of the protein." This guy is on his death bed now. Making an antibody takes about two months if you are at lucky. That guy would have been in the ground long before that. Nov 22 03:46:05 hmmm...doc you sure know a lot about a show you hate Nov 22 03:46:18 * haeffb_ notices the "reality" in "reality9110" Nov 22 03:46:20 So the screen flashes like 2 fingerprints a second, so flipping through the fbi database would take,oh, 2 and a half years.... Nov 22 03:46:23 I didn't say I didn't watch it. Nov 22 03:46:46 the Office makes me lol frequently Nov 22 03:46:57 Then, there's the overnight dna match results.. Nov 22 03:47:08 even though I work in an office Nov 22 03:47:23 How come the finger print searches always are able to pick up people who have never been in trouble Nov 22 03:47:45 because, Josh, computers know everything. Nov 22 03:47:45 if you never get in trouble noone can track you Nov 22 03:47:52 hahaha Nov 22 03:48:14 sinacism have you ever applied for a job in a casino? Or at a police agency? Or for the federal government? Nov 22 03:48:17 Back in the 1980s, a lot of kids were fingerprinted when they got bike licenses. Nov 22 03:48:22 ok well Josh will never have that problem... Nov 22 03:48:24 or did you take the Boy Scout fingerprint merit badge? Nov 22 03:48:29 he's probably in every dB out there Nov 22 03:48:37 no I will Nov 22 03:48:50 * haeffb_ has been fingerprinted twice Nov 22 03:49:03 I just was wondering why they always get the introvert guy that never did anything ooo we got a match Nov 22 03:49:15 It's always the quiet ones Nov 22 03:49:20 * haeffb_ has only been in trouble once. you do the math Nov 22 03:49:22 Last time we did a search for my prints, I found seven copies, the eldest dating from the aforementioned merit badge in 1968. Nov 22 03:49:33 he lives in a house on the outskirts of town in a one bedroom house and like to collect stamps Nov 22 03:49:48 * haeffb_ used to collect stamps Nov 22 03:49:55 josh stop talking about yourself in the third person Nov 22 03:50:01 AAHAAA he did it Nov 22 03:50:03 he mowed lawns for the casino one summer in high school. Nov 22 03:50:20 evening. Nov 22 03:50:27 HI Roy!!! Nov 22 03:50:37 howdy Nov 22 03:50:44 Roy Nov 22 03:50:53 I've finally decided to keep project notebooks. Nov 22 03:51:03 Its why I stick to shows about space the future and all around nothing in this time frame Nov 22 03:51:08 Oh, Roy, that's dangerous. Nov 22 03:51:18 Roy-Pre101: somebody should write an app for that Nov 22 03:51:36 oo and Venture Brothers cause I like to laugh Nov 22 03:51:44 lol Roy use Google Wave....! Nov 22 03:51:54 Google already knows enough about me, thank you. Nov 22 03:52:01 Jen, WE quit using Google wave. Nov 22 03:52:02 yeah that thing is awesome do the wave Nov 22 03:52:13 oo yeah Nov 22 03:52:14 because, among other things, it doesn't allow you to upload arbitrary files. Nov 22 03:52:17 I could use a google wave invite...just saying. Nov 22 03:52:21 Rick_work NO WE HAVEN'T! Nov 22 03:52:27 we haven't? Nov 22 03:52:28 so....what does Google Wave really mean to me as a person? Nov 22 03:52:29 you just stopped looking! Nov 22 03:52:37 ok ok ok Nov 22 03:52:41 I stopped. Nov 22 03:52:42 I suck Nov 22 03:52:46 thank you... Nov 22 03:52:50 i feel validated now Nov 22 03:53:00 JenP: Your parking is free? Nov 22 03:53:02 is there a way to get the wave to email me that it has been updated so I get a reminder to go look at it? Nov 22 03:53:13 because I suck Nov 22 03:53:20 That was a hint... Nov 22 03:53:23 especially if I forget to take my meds Nov 22 03:53:28 Google wave is almost like instant messaging, email, and text all in one, but it reliese on google chrome Nov 22 03:53:28 I'm working on it doc Nov 22 03:53:33 Rick_work not yet, but you know...I EMAIL YOU TO TELL YOU THERES STUFF ON THERE Nov 22 03:53:34 gimme a minute Nov 22 03:53:41 Excellent. Nov 22 03:53:43 k Nov 22 03:54:15 sinacism: so, it's another way for me to get lost in a myriad of information sources? Nov 22 03:54:18 Wave might actually not be bad for this project. But... Nov 22 03:54:20 sinacism: Wave can run on safari and Firefox also Nov 22 03:55:18 i think what you all need is ....someone ...to ...help...you ...stay ...organized Nov 22 03:55:23 I dont use either, I used to use Maxthon but gave it up a while ago Nov 22 03:55:32 Doc, invitation sent Nov 22 03:55:36 Thank you Nov 22 03:55:46 Anyone know how to prevent the defaul volume changing from happening when you press the volume keys? I am using the Key Service to detect the keypress just fine, but the volume still changes... Nov 22 03:56:19 doc, google says "we have a lot of stamps to lick, invitations will not be sent immediately." Nov 22 03:56:22 so it may be a bit Nov 22 03:56:33 I noticed. Nov 22 03:56:36 well, I noticed Mozilla has this Raindrop thing which sounds vaguely Wave-like Nov 22 03:56:40 Looked in the old inbox and was like, "awww" Nov 22 03:56:53 TIWizard you have to stop propagation on the event. Nov 22 03:57:44 I have tried to stop the propagation through event.stopPropogation(), but it doesn't seem to work. Nov 22 03:57:56 propagation* Nov 22 03:58:03 oh Nov 22 03:58:06 hmm Nov 22 03:58:19 can you do a VOLUME UP every time someone presses volume down? :) Nov 22 03:58:37 Yes Nov 22 03:58:57 Well, I just don't want that notification area to show anything. Nov 22 03:59:44 ahhh Nov 22 03:59:48 TIWizard: try event.preventDefault(); Nov 22 03:59:58 GMTA Roy Nov 22 04:00:07 Ok, let me try that now... Nov 22 04:00:17 You're going to right the greensboro metro transit authority? Nov 22 04:00:48 *ride Nov 22 04:00:55 * Roy-Pre101 babbles. Nov 22 04:01:05 * sugardave bubbles. Nov 22 04:01:25 Hmm... The event.preventDefault didn't work :( Nov 22 04:01:32 Anything else to try? Nov 22 04:01:39 Do both? Nov 22 04:01:41 :D Nov 22 04:01:53 I don't know, TIWizard. Nov 22 04:01:57 Read the source code. Nov 22 04:02:04 Then be sure to post the answer on webos101.com Nov 22 04:02:31 Do any of the default apps prevent the volume from showing? I haven't seen any that I recall... Nov 22 04:03:10 * haeffb_ finally got a support email that wasn't "How do I get a password" Nov 22 04:03:27 * sugardave cheers haeffb_ onward. Nov 22 04:04:12 * haeffb_ looks around to see what all the cheering is about Nov 22 04:06:52 Hmm... Even event.stop() doesn't work :/ Nov 22 04:07:08 Seems like something that should be included in the API Nov 22 04:07:43 idk when you would need to detect the volume keys and still use the default behaviour :( Nov 22 04:08:14 Roy-Pre101, you still round? Nov 22 04:08:33 * haeffb_ has a bug to fix! Nov 22 04:10:06 kesne: kinda Nov 22 04:10:44 haeffb_: What app is yours? Nov 22 04:12:14 Damn. Missed an anti-health care reform rally at the capital today Nov 22 04:12:30 Rick for the pixie I dont have to do anything special just fit the images Nov 22 04:12:41 exActly correct Nov 22 04:12:59 the code will know where to go Nov 22 04:13:16 cool I will give it a whirl Nov 22 04:13:49 sinacism all you have to do is make it fit. :-) I can change the html to make the stuff lie where you want it. Nov 22 04:14:08 But remember the 20 px at the top for the signal bar and the 20 px at the bottom for the notifications Nov 22 04:14:43 Rick_work: 20 or more. Nov 22 04:14:44 rick alright I am gonna do it up like the pre version but to pixie dimensions and see how it goes Nov 22 04:14:47 for notifications. Nov 22 04:14:59 if it's more I give up Nov 22 04:15:09 the game board is unusable if it's more than 20 Nov 22 04:15:11 I want to debate my congresscritters in public. Nov 22 04:15:20 20 top and 20 bottom on top of the already tiny 400 pixel hieght Nov 22 04:15:20 Roy-Pre101: TaskAdder in the catalog, Agenda in precentral Nov 22 04:15:21 reality9110: Good luck with that. Nov 22 04:15:42 what about this 20px thing? Nov 22 04:15:49 Roy-Pre101: I've sent both of the MDs debate invitations. Nov 22 04:15:54 haeffb_: Ah, I downloaded agenda once. Never got into the habit of using it, tho. Nov 22 04:16:53 I don't use the calendar in the Pre much yet since I haven't figured out how to set an alarm that actually alerts me to something. Nov 22 04:17:07 Am I the only one that never gets calendar notifications? Nov 22 04:17:21 They'll never debate a health care reform supporter though. Only just repeat the standard GOP talking points. Nov 22 04:17:41 * haeffb_ gets calendar notifications. In Lotus Notes, google calendar, and pre calendar. All at almost the same time. Nov 22 04:17:58 Rick I can have the image go all the way to 400px but the usable space is only 360 hmmm I think I can do something more square less golden rule Nov 22 04:18:14 You mean like the health care reform proponents do differently? Nov 22 04:18:40 Roy-Pre101: When facts are on your side, the debate dwindles down to nothing. Nov 22 04:18:47 I just like how the Republicans are now concerned about the government having a say about your body Nov 22 04:18:56 now they think it's a bad thing....who knew? Nov 22 04:19:12 reality9110: Uh huh. Nov 22 04:19:17 health care reform I am sorry I didnt like going to the VA and I think everything would become just like it I will pay to play thanks Nov 22 04:20:31 sinacism: How is it any way, shape, or form like the VA? It's not socialized medicine. It's not even single payer. The facilities are still private entities, the physicians are still private citizens. Nov 22 04:20:36 TIWizard \usr\lib\luna\system\luna-systemui\app\controllers\volumealert-assistant.js Nov 22 04:20:43 I'm afraid you get to read code. Nov 22 04:20:51 Those are the GOP talking points I'm talking about. Nov 22 04:20:57 If you figure it out we would REALLY appriciate a note at webos-internals or webos101 Nov 22 04:21:01 whoa, thanks :) I will checl that out now Nov 22 04:21:03 reality9110: You've had a chance to read all of that bill? I'm impressed. Nov 22 04:21:20 Roy-Pre101: Every...last...word. Both House and Senate bills. Nov 22 04:21:27 Doubly impressed. Nov 22 04:21:53 I am just saying I been in gov control kind of areas me no like but to each there own Nov 22 04:21:58 And it's all roses and gumdrops? Nov 22 04:22:07 sinacism: Again, this isn't "government control" Nov 22 04:22:29 policy and paperwork Nov 22 04:22:35 and your conclusion? The conclusions that I have formed from the bits and pieces I have seen is, this is a suck. It's not ENOUGH change to help the people who need help and it's TOO MUCH change for the people who don't. Looks like total fail. Nov 22 04:22:51 reality9110: Which part of the constitution authorizes the government to do this? Nov 22 04:22:52 but I haven't read every word. Nov 22 04:23:09 I have not read it no Nov 22 04:23:13 Roy-Pre101: Both interstate commerce and general welfare. Nov 22 04:23:41 Pretty broad reading of both, I think. Interstate commerce clause has been abused badly enough. Nov 22 04:23:54 I to be honest am just outside looking in so I am not caught up on any of it Nov 22 04:24:06 Rick_work: The fact of the matter is that we are faced with a situation where those who need it is everybody. Nov 22 04:24:22 fair enough Doc. Nov 22 04:24:41 If we continue on our current course, the average individual won't be able to afford health insurance by 2025, when the average cost of premiums will exceed the average household income. Nov 22 04:25:00 but the problem is, the bills, so far as I can see from the parts I have read, _don't_ make enough changes. Nov 22 04:25:22 And the fact of the matter is that if you are seriously ill, your chances of being denied are 50%. That's a coin toss. Nov 22 04:25:31 nodnod Nov 22 04:25:49 and there is always some people trying to bilk the system Nov 22 04:26:11 sinacism: Which is addressed in the bill under Medicare and Medicaid fraud reform. Nov 22 04:26:40 I keep my immune system up by eating food off the ground Nov 22 04:26:47 sinacism: Smart! Nov 22 04:26:56 cough cough Nov 22 04:27:32 What's ironic is that the poorest states, generally the red states, are the states that already consume the most "government provided" health care funds Nov 22 04:27:34 My biggest problem is it's all just the camel's nose in te tent. Nov 22 04:27:37 The systems that appear to work, the places where health care seems to be working, AND holding costs down, Germany, Holland,and to a lesser extent taiwan, made a change which no one in the US seems willing to swallow Nov 22 04:27:40 *the Nov 22 04:28:05 Roy-Pre101 I understand that problem. But the alternative is horrific as well. Nov 22 04:28:28 * haeffb_ believes technology has advanced to the point where we can do things to keep people alive that cost more than people are worth Nov 22 04:28:34 Rick_work: Germany has a government based system. Nov 22 04:28:43 As I understand it, before the government got involved in healthcare people could afford to pay fee ofr service... Nov 22 04:28:46 unless they're MY people, of course Nov 22 04:28:54 *for Nov 22 04:28:57 Bad keyboard. Nov 22 04:28:59 you cant put a price on a person Nov 22 04:29:01 (cough cough) Nov 22 04:29:10 sinacism: Well, technically, you can... Nov 22 04:29:17 Roy-Pre101: No. The government got involved because the cost of fee for service increased to the point where it became a financial burden. Nov 22 04:29:19 haha Nov 22 04:29:19 sinacism I do it every day Nov 22 04:31:44 wish I could convince virtualbox to respect my dvorak layout Nov 22 04:31:58 Interesting: http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj16n3-3.html Nov 22 04:32:05 Oh lord. Nov 22 04:32:07 Not Cato Nov 22 04:32:31 can anyone tell me why the emulator is showing and errant box in the lower right corner Nov 22 04:33:11 its two pixels by two pixels Nov 22 04:33:59 too long to read the whole thing, though. Nov 22 04:34:27 sinacism: Something in the HTML. Is this the peg app? Nov 22 04:34:38 yeah Nov 22 04:35:00 It doesn't even mention the Hill-Burton Act Nov 22 04:35:11 ok no biggie I thought I may have had a computer burp Nov 22 04:35:34 sinacism: It happens on the Pre, too Nov 22 04:36:23 Roy- really I wonder why, o well I am just cool that it wasnt me Nov 22 04:37:09 sinacism: You should make Rick fix it. Nov 22 04:38:13 And wow. It takes balls of steel to call the Health Security Act of 1993 a governnment take over of health care when the act specifically called for states to establish their own system of health care which did not have to include any involvement of the government whatsoever but had a provision in it that allowed for states to establish a single payer system if they so choosed to do so. Nov 22 04:39:05 I break code alot its what steared me torward print media after six months of web design Nov 22 04:41:22 sinacism it's a missing img file Nov 22 04:41:39 that is some image that the html THINKS is supposed to be there that doesn't exist. Nov 22 04:41:48 the little 2x2 box. Nov 22 04:44:44 reality9110: What I read is that he HSA of 1993 was exactly that. Mandated coverage through approved plans. Nov 22 04:45:39 Roy-Pre101: Except it wasn't. The federal government established a minimal framework for the states to work within Nov 22 04:45:51 The thing is, we need to bit the bullet that those other systems have and define "basic" insurance, is." Then, you can do single payer, you can emulate the German system of private insurers who are forbidden to make a profit on "basic" insurance, and you set a standard nationally "we will pay $x for this procedure. Period. Nov 22 04:46:09 Then, theinsurance companies can make their profit on add-ons. Nov 22 04:46:21 and so can hospitals. Nov 22 04:46:26 My question is... "why"? Nov 22 04:46:31 Why do we need private insurance? Nov 22 04:46:36 but it will never pas in the US...... Nov 22 04:46:42 I pay a lot...and I mean... a lot in taxes. Nov 22 04:46:49 so you do. Nov 22 04:47:09 Hey everyone. Has anyone here done any benchmarks comparing DOM to canvas for animation? Nov 22 04:47:10 and I pay "rather a lot" myself, although not as much as you. Nov 22 04:47:12 Yet, I go to the doctor just like anybody else, and I end up paying even more on top of that for insurance and for services. Nov 22 04:47:12 reality9110: So, you want to pay more? Nov 22 04:47:25 rbredow canvas wins hands down Nov 22 04:47:32 I pay a lot for electricity, too. Maybe the government should pay for that. Everyone needs it. Nov 22 04:47:35 Roy-Pre101: I'll explain how it's actually less. Nov 22 04:47:46 Roy-Pre101: Please, think outside of the talking points. Nov 22 04:47:48 That's what I read here too...http://pre101.com/blog/2009/11/17/zombie-invasion-or-im-going-to-eat-your-braaains/ Nov 22 04:48:05 reality9110: Please, give me credit for coming up with that by myself. Nov 22 04:48:07 For a single payer system, I end up paying for one thing and one thing only. Insurance. Nov 22 04:48:14 rbredow, dom wins in a few weird situations. Nov 22 04:48:35 The hospital systems are already covered under the cost of taxes. Nov 22 04:48:41 When using the canvas, do you suggest drawing a background image with the canvas, or putting an IMG behind the canvas element? Nov 22 04:48:57 In our current system, what ends up happening is that those of us who do pay a lot of money in taxes, end up double paying for everything. Nov 22 04:49:01 rbredow it depends.... and that's the best answer anyone can give you. Nov 22 04:49:10 That makes sense. I'll do some testing. Nov 22 04:49:15 Recognize that the canvas support on the Pre is currently brain damaged. Nov 22 04:49:24 We're already subsidizing most hospitals in the US through Medicare and Medicaid disproportionate share programs and rural initiative programs. Nov 22 04:49:28 The DOM's were convenient for capturing clicks, but I can write that myself with a canvas. Nov 22 04:49:42 Yes...I've played with it before. It's pretty lame...but not quite as lame as DOMs. :) Nov 22 04:49:45 Yet, in order to actually utilize thoses facilities, we end up having to pay on top of that to a private insurance company. Nov 22 04:50:24 With a government-based system, instead of paying out twice, we instead pay once. Nov 22 04:50:38 reality9110 here's the question tho for any system like you propose. Nov 22 04:50:46 It's a big assumptiont o say you'd actually pay less. Nov 22 04:51:00 what are the limits, the demand for a resource that is free is infinite. Nov 22 04:51:00 Roy-Pre101: Not in the least bit Nov 22 04:51:19 you _have_ to define a basic level of benefits, and then allow add-ons. Nov 22 04:51:23 we can afford to cover everyone for basic. Nov 22 04:51:26 we just can. Nov 22 04:51:41 But we can't afford to cover everyone for elective cosmetic surgery. Nov 22 04:51:46 Roy-Pre101, I have a working video camera application :) Thank you for your help Nov 22 04:51:51 where exactly is the line? Nov 22 04:51:52 Rick_work: There's a study by NBER that shows that increased usage does not come when a resource is made available "for free" in terms of medicine. Nov 22 04:51:55 zsoc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nov 22 04:52:01 zsoc: Great! Nov 22 04:52:04 zsoc: congrats. That's awesome. Nov 22 04:52:07 Rick_work: We already have a working model for it. It's called...Medicare. Nov 22 04:52:18 medicare works? Nov 22 04:52:30 Tell that to my father-in-law. Nov 22 04:52:44 Rick_work: Oncce individuals hit 65, their medicare kicks in. Yet medical utilization does not increase dramatically. Nov 22 04:52:45 He lost all his doctors when he turn 65. Nov 22 04:52:54 *turned Nov 22 04:52:58 Damn, I can't type tonight. Nov 22 04:53:06 Roy-Pre101: Less than 4% of all physicians do not accept medicare/medicaid Nov 22 04:53:09 reality9110 exactly. Medicare defined a levelof basic care, and pays exactly ZERO beyond that, but the option to buy private insurance or get private carestill exists beyond it Nov 22 04:53:13 AND Nov 22 04:53:14 I guess he was just lucky. Nov 22 04:53:55 Rick_work: You most certainly do not need private insurance under medicare. Nov 22 04:53:55 Are we talking about healthcare? Nov 22 04:54:03 what Nov 22 04:54:03 the Nov 22 04:54:03 heck Nov 22 04:55:00 What we need to do is restructure medicare to eliminate medicare advantage plans. Nov 22 04:55:08 reality9110 We're going to differ on that opinion I'm afraid. Doc, as much as I respect the hell out of you, I know what the limits to the benefits my darling dearest gets under medicare, and what her AT&T insurance still has to pay. Nov 22 04:55:12 zsoc: I think so Nov 22 04:55:22 POWERFUL SUGGESTION. Nov 22 04:55:28 let's set this topic aside. Nov 22 04:55:37 it's divisive and of no interest to the non-americans Nov 22 04:56:20 All I can say is that I've treated literally thousands of cancer patients with nothing but medicare. Nov 22 04:56:37 Why? As soon as you get sick, you get kicked from private insurance. Nov 22 04:56:57 * zsoc isn't really interesting in #american-healthcare Nov 22 04:57:04 s/ing/ed/ Nov 22 04:57:08 zsoc -- got it Nov 22 04:57:13 Doc, another night. Nov 22 04:57:23 oh no, don't mind me Nov 22 04:57:30 just saying in general this seems like an odd venue :P Nov 22 04:57:43 it's an odd venue,but we're odd. Nov 22 04:57:53 zsoc: It was just a rather big day in the US for health care Nov 22 04:57:54 one is a doctor, one watches doctors on tv.. Nov 22 04:57:55 so....... Nov 22 04:57:57 speak for yourself... Nov 22 04:58:02 eval or new Function? Nov 22 04:58:10 which one is "better"? Nov 22 04:58:34 eval is evil Nov 22 04:58:42 that's what I hear Nov 22 04:58:42 new Funcction is just eval in pretty clothing Nov 22 04:58:47 but it doesn't use the evil word. Nov 22 04:58:51 Hmm, this SASS thing looks neat. Nov 22 04:58:58 what about evol Nov 22 04:59:02 hehehehe Nov 22 04:59:09 not in Kansas Josh Nov 22 04:59:14 heh Nov 22 04:59:22 http://sass-lang.com/ Nov 22 05:00:32 reality9110, have you read the bill? Nov 22 05:00:44 zsoc: All bills Nov 22 05:00:53 Roy-Pre101 are you NUTS Nov 22 05:01:00 sass looks like python for CSS. Nov 22 05:01:08 reality9110, .... isn't it like 2100 pages? Nov 22 05:01:22 zsoc: It's a lot less when you actually format it. Nov 22 05:01:33 reality9110, then you are allowed to talk about it :P Nov 22 05:01:35 syntactically important white space in CSS? Please Roy,no. Nov 22 05:01:46 zsoc, not only that, but he's a real doctor. Nov 22 05:01:50 * zsoc loves css whitespace Nov 22 05:02:25 reality9110, why is there a doctor here? :P Nov 22 05:02:44 zsoc: Long story short. I needed a hobby Nov 22 05:02:44 he was bored, so he took up webos programming. :-) Nov 22 05:03:10 reality9110, i like hobbies. this isn't a bad one as they go, i suppose. what type of medicine do you practice? Nov 22 05:03:29 zsoc -- What's the status on video recording then, is there an alpha we could see? Can we feed a pointer to Dieter? Nov 22 05:03:34 Clinical immunology/vaccine development, hem-onc Nov 22 05:03:44 Rick_work, no :P Nov 22 05:03:50 reality9110, sounds exciting :) Nov 22 05:04:41 Rick_work, there's an early build on the webos-internals git, but it doesn't work. i'll push an update soon Nov 22 05:04:53 Rick_work, it's GPL, and the service is MIT.. go build it ;) Nov 22 05:05:25 Rick_work: I'm not positive whitespace is significant. Nov 22 05:05:39 Roy! whitespace is very significant Nov 22 05:05:45 JenP: :P Nov 22 05:05:51 no i'm serious Nov 22 05:05:52 Sass does away with the unnecessary brackets and semicolons of CSS. Properties are nested beneath selectors, and each property gets its own line. Nov 22 05:05:54 from a graphic stand point white space is very important Nov 22 05:06:47 we dont read we only interpret images and the space within and without type faces help with that Nov 22 05:06:48 That doesn't mean that your indentation is significant. Nov 22 05:06:53 Sass uses indentation and line breaks rather than curly braces and semicolons to define rules and divide up properties. Nov 22 05:06:59 oh Nov 22 05:07:02 Well, nevermind then Nov 22 05:07:06 Didn't see that part. Nov 22 05:07:25 (if you really hate it, Sass 2.4 will support braces and semicolons as well). Nov 22 05:07:27 I'm not big on python either. Nov 22 05:07:31 whitespace instead of braces and semi colons... that.. sounds like.. a terrible idea Nov 22 05:07:38 meaningful white space drives me nuts Nov 22 05:07:39 coding python is like flying Nov 22 05:07:51 with one eye and no sense of balance Nov 22 05:08:27 i like python;o Nov 22 05:10:20 any mysql people in-channel? Nov 22 05:11:54 oops I came in on a code party Nov 22 05:14:21 Having multiple accounts with google is very frustrating Nov 22 05:14:44 Google wave doesn't allow you to sign in with a different account, you have to sign out elsewhere, first. Nov 22 05:15:50 is there some secret to use clearTimer()? Nov 22 05:16:06 PuffTheMagic: Use a global for the timer Nov 22 05:16:17 So, apparently if you have the Touchstone back, and set your Pre on a computer with a magnetic lid sensor, you can put your machine to sleep. The more you know. Nov 22 05:18:11 FoxFireX: Speaker magnet might be enough, too. Nov 22 05:18:33 reality9110: i cant Nov 22 05:18:35 Amusing nonetheless. Nov 22 05:18:41 PuffTheMagic: Sure you can Nov 22 05:18:48 PuffTheMagic: you MUST Nov 22 05:18:56 PuffTheMagic: Are you saving the return value from the call to set up the timer as the value to clearTimer? Nov 22 05:19:01 well, that may not be true, but you can :D Nov 22 05:19:17 It doesn't need to be a global at all. Nov 22 05:19:35 reality9110: yes im saving it....in the constructor of my object i have this.disconnectTimeout = false; Nov 22 05:19:44 then wheni create the timer Nov 22 05:19:48 with setTimeout Nov 22 05:19:55 i save it to this.disconnectTimeout Nov 22 05:20:37 hmmm, that should Nov 22 05:20:39 work Nov 22 05:20:54 yeah thats what all the xamples do that i see Nov 22 05:20:56 are you sure you're using the right combination Nov 22 05:20:58 ? Nov 22 05:21:05 clearTimeout for setTimeout Nov 22 05:21:05 combination? Nov 22 05:21:11 yeah Nov 22 05:21:12 and clearInterval for setInterval Nov 22 05:21:14 k Nov 22 05:21:14 im using that Nov 22 05:21:54 do you get an actual ID string for the value of disconnectTimeout before you try to clear it? Nov 22 05:22:39 idk i never checked Nov 22 05:22:41 not string, number Nov 22 05:22:44 i can try and find out Nov 22 05:27:18 Rick_work: You install that beta? Nov 22 05:28:33 I have not. Nov 22 05:28:35 I can do it now. Nov 22 05:28:42 I need to make an account somewhere? Nov 22 05:28:54 There's a wizard in the app Nov 22 05:29:05 ahhh Nov 22 05:30:44 installed Nov 22 05:33:51 * ElVox is surprised to learn (by accident none-the-less!) that firebug lite works on the emulator Nov 22 05:34:52 ElVox: I'd love to know how that works. Nov 22 05:34:52 PuffTheMagic? Talking in #webos? Weird. Nov 22 05:34:53 reality9110 Doc, what the hell? It not only works fine, and the ads are not invasive, and I like that you cleverly put them top or bottom, but they are trans-coding my favorite local NPR station from windows-media, and I assume it used my zip code to figure out what was local. Nov 22 05:34:56 Good Job Nov 22 05:35:20 GPS. Nov 22 05:35:34 sugardave: i am getting undefined when i try printing it right after it is set Nov 22 05:35:34 Doc made an app? Nov 22 05:36:05 OMG Doc that sounds awesome! Nov 22 05:36:10 doc has made amazing apps Nov 22 05:36:12 well it "works" i should say...pretty flacky but it is still almost better than the inspector! Nov 22 05:36:14 PuffTheMagic: Well, that's why it doesn't work :D Nov 22 05:36:16 but this one beats them all Nov 22 05:36:47 sugardave: yeah that makes sense, by why does it not save... i know the timer get started and executes Nov 22 05:37:26 PuffTheMagic: not sure...it sure would be easier if you could use a global var, at least to test it Nov 22 05:38:10 sugardave: but there could be potentially multiple timers in this code which is why i need it part of the object and not global Nov 22 05:38:25 JenP: forwarded to your gmail Nov 22 05:38:42 thanks Nov 22 05:38:50 PuffTheMagic: make a global "timers" object/array and stuff them in there? Nov 22 05:39:05 that's what I'm doing when I have multiple timers Nov 22 05:39:28 seems like a lot of hoops to jump through Nov 22 05:40:08 I agree....it should work with what you are doing, but you need to figure out why its returning undefined in your property Nov 22 05:40:11 Maybe just for testing use a local variable? Just try var token = setTimeout(...), then check the value of token? Nov 22 05:49:56 OMG OMG Nov 22 05:50:09 sugardave: even witha global is stil undefined Nov 22 05:50:25 firebug lite opens into its own card if you tell it to open as a window and fullscreen it is nearly usable! Nov 22 05:50:31 oops Nov 22 05:50:36 i forgot to update something Nov 22 05:59:41 PuffTheMagic: something else is wrong...unless that's the update you're talking about Nov 22 06:00:12 after i made that "update" it all stoppped working ;) Nov 22 06:00:22 oops :D Nov 22 06:08:46 sugardave: if i wrap the setTimeout in an alert() i can see the value Nov 22 06:10:34 PuffTheMagic: this is in the initialize function? Nov 22 06:11:44 ElVox: not the part where i try and store setTimeout Nov 22 06:12:25 * ElVox is sooo happy that he finally has an interactive javascript console and live DOM object list on the emulator with firebug lite Nov 22 06:14:11 * ElVox can't help but think that with some polish and a little integration work, firebug could be a great webos debugging tool Nov 22 06:21:46 ElVox: How'd you get it all set up? Nov 22 06:24:12 it is very flakey but if you want to try, just add to the of your index.html Nov 22 06:25:37 at least thats all I did for my app and it worked...then i had to goto options and select "open in popup" to get it on its own card Nov 22 06:31:45 all your global functions are under window.opener instead of window so you have to do opener.Mojo... Nov 22 06:51:01 Rick_work: hows geeking out going for ya? Nov 22 07:10:47 Rick_work: howd the geeking out go? Nov 22 07:17:22 will webos doctor reinstall all the preinstalled apps like amazon, nascar, and so on? Nov 22 08:22:58 arg why does palm-inspector have to still suck Nov 22 08:25:03 does it? Nov 22 08:25:21 9 times out of 10, if i want it to work I have to reboot the VM Nov 22 08:25:24 Rubin: ElVox was mentioning that he got FireBug Lite to work Nov 22 08:34:41 wow Nov 22 08:50:07 anyone got any tips on how to do authenticated twitter requests (i.e. using basic auth)? (or oauth, but i figure that'll be harder.) Nov 22 08:50:45 thought i'd start with something simple, but it doesn't seem that Ajax.Request() supports a username/password, even though the XmlHttpRequest object does Nov 22 08:52:55 you could have a look how the existing twitter app works Nov 22 08:54:03 oh! where can i get that from? Nov 22 08:56:11 spaz is opensource Nov 22 08:56:31 idk where they keep it, but im not above looking at apps on the device for pointers ;) Nov 22 09:06:29 hrm, they use jQuery() to do the ajax requests, then hook into a beforeSend callback to add an Authorization header Nov 22 09:06:36 http://github.com/funkatron/spazcore/blob/master/libs/spaztwit.js#L1179 Nov 22 09:07:04 it actually looks as though jQuery.Ajax() supports username/password directly though, so i'm not sure why they do that Nov 22 09:14:58 maybe the underlying stuff in webos is broken Nov 22 09:16:41 could be, i'm just testing it now Nov 22 09:16:42 * Rubin is trying to hack up a list to be less than 51 pixels high per row. the .selected bit is throwing me for a loop though. Nov 22 09:18:15 So what's the thought on the Smart Reflex patches? Nov 22 09:19:30 wassat? Nov 22 09:21:29 two new patches for cpu scaling are now in the repository Nov 22 09:21:53 hm, to eat more or less of my already sad battery life? Nov 22 09:25:02 that is why palm cranked down the cpu in the first place Nov 22 09:25:42 I can't go more than a day without charging Nov 22 09:25:45 on minimal use Nov 22 09:26:01 there is a scaling patch that may help batt life Nov 22 09:26:08 same here Nov 22 09:26:26 best to just get a bigger battery Nov 22 09:26:43 that's what I did Nov 22 09:26:53 thats kinda sad Nov 22 09:26:53 it's not that responsive as-is Nov 22 09:26:57 scale it back more? :( Nov 22 09:27:12 get a bigger battery and make it faster ;) Nov 22 09:27:15 only when not taxed Nov 22 09:27:45 mine is fixed at 600 MHz right now Nov 22 09:28:03 its zippy Nov 22 09:28:30 Mark_M: what's the stock mhz? Nov 22 09:28:59 palm set it too 500 Nov 22 09:29:15 ti rates it at 600 Nov 22 09:29:27 does it get hot? Nov 22 09:29:33 no Nov 22 09:29:50 it is pretty cool now Nov 22 09:30:01 hows battery life? Nov 22 09:30:13 I will monitor that though Nov 22 09:30:27 still testing batt life Nov 22 09:30:51 surely it scales its own cpu back with load though, like a desktop? Nov 22 09:31:52 not as palm set it Nov 22 09:32:01 weird.. Nov 22 09:32:11 yep Nov 22 09:32:12 if its checking my mail in my pocket, it has no reason to be running at full speed Nov 22 09:32:41 or maybe it does. i suppose the sooner it goes to sleep the better really Nov 22 09:32:43 that is the purpose of scaling Nov 22 09:33:17 I'll probably switch tomorrow Nov 22 09:33:43 it definately gets hotter if its got higher cpu load Nov 22 09:33:49 so something is scaling somewhere Nov 22 09:33:53 it does Nov 22 09:34:26 there are times it is hot doing nothing Nov 22 09:34:46 its doing something :) Nov 22 09:34:59 mine gets hot doing "nothing" when it's flipping to roaming network and back Nov 22 09:35:02 possibly the modem Nov 22 09:35:03 which is COMMON for me Nov 22 09:35:14 yeah i get that a lot at work Nov 22 09:35:18 the modem again Nov 22 09:35:23 interesting that that uses battery though, hadn't considered that Nov 22 09:35:34 when i'm roaming off sprint, it heats up good, and eats my battery Nov 22 09:35:37 freakin sucks Nov 22 09:35:41 i even have a booster like 12 feet from my desk, but it still wants to roam Nov 22 09:35:58 i don't know why i'd be roaming off sprint anywhere. i'm in los angeles. damn Nov 22 09:36:10 afterall these are still radios Nov 22 09:36:24 i roam all the damn time though Nov 22 09:36:35 propogation effects Nov 22 09:36:35 pandora--, indeed. Nov 22 09:36:46 outside its fine, its just in buildings i tend to roam Nov 22 09:36:59 its like the roam signals are just stronger inside so it switches Nov 22 09:37:14 as I said propogation Nov 22 09:37:17 and since i'm amplifying both of them, i guess roaming wins Nov 22 09:37:37 maybe i need a repeater that is more selective Nov 22 09:38:20 I tried one and it was crap Nov 22 09:38:29 weird Nov 22 09:38:45 Rubin: what city? Nov 22 09:38:52 minneapolis Nov 22 09:39:06 ok, so not a small country town either ;) Nov 22 09:39:10 i work in the sub-basement, so its fine that i need a repeater Nov 22 09:39:14 http://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Extenders-YX510-PCS-CELDual-Booster-Coverage/dp/B000J2XZ1K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=wireless&qid=1258882728&sr=8-2 Nov 22 09:39:16 thats what I have Nov 22 09:39:45 but it seems to only boost the roaming signal. Nov 22 09:40:17 i had sprint send me the Airave Nov 22 09:40:31 thats my solution for while i'm at home (where i work) Nov 22 09:40:49 but still, i go around la, 1/2 the time i'm on verizons network Nov 22 09:40:57 flipping back and forth eating my battery Nov 22 09:41:05 hmm interesting Nov 22 09:41:12 do they charge you? Nov 22 09:41:23 i complained enough, all charges waived Nov 22 09:41:29 initial and monthly Nov 22 09:41:38 I took my airave back Nov 22 09:42:06 the very IDEA that they charge you to use your own internet connection to improve their cell coverage, is insulting. Nov 22 09:42:25 if they wanted to put a few of those on my network at work i'd let them, but fuck paying them for it Nov 22 09:43:46 Mark_M: why? Nov 22 09:44:24 my router had an IPSec tunneling bug Nov 22 09:45:19 what frequency is sprint? Nov 22 09:53:15 must sleep Nov 22 10:10:57 me too Nov 22 13:04:01 Hey Nov 22 13:09:59 I know the webos use gstream as its multimedia framework . How well does it do as media player Nov 22 13:11:29 Well if the media player is based on it as your saying Nov 22 13:11:31 Well Nov 22 13:12:49 To be truthful I all most when out and got one after finding that fact out. Nov 22 13:13:10 I hate the idea you can just play .mp4 on iphones , android ect Nov 22 13:13:22 mp4 is not that great of a format Nov 22 13:15:40 The only thing I see good about .mp4 is its becomes popular like mp3 is for songs so everything will play it. Nov 22 13:16:57 Pre plays mp3 easily Nov 22 13:17:06 And wavs Nov 22 13:17:28 Nice losses format Nov 22 13:17:45 Losses format? Nov 22 13:17:50 wav Nov 22 13:18:27 waves are good for clips, and are usually bigger than mp3 Nov 22 13:18:37 They are uncompressed Nov 22 13:19:26 Well less compressed Nov 22 13:20:31 To be truthful , I would love to see something rock ogg,mkv and no need for mp3 and .mp4 . That great thing I thought about gstream is it leaves room for way better media players even if you have to hack the device Nov 22 13:21:38 I use Totem and it play pretty much all I need. flash movies and mp4 , avi ,ect Nov 22 15:25:42 hi all! Nov 22 15:38:47 hello Nov 22 15:39:07 HI CTLAdvance-work Nov 22 15:46:16 hi JenP! Nov 22 15:46:25 morning! Nov 22 15:49:43 coffeetime! Nov 22 15:49:58 totally agree Nov 22 15:50:11 hmm we need a blood-caffine-o-meter for webos Nov 22 15:50:24 with an alarm when your caffine level gets too low Nov 22 15:53:47 anyone in here have much success with webkit transforms? Nov 22 16:16:19 JenP: Read the article on pre101! And there's some on webos101.com, too Nov 22 16:17:00 hmmm...webos101? is that new?;-) Nov 22 16:17:12 * Roy-Pre101 kicks JenP. Nov 22 16:19:08 grins Nov 22 16:55:09 everyone should check out: StageController.openStageInspector() :-D Nov 22 16:55:18 from comments "Opens a lightweight child stage, and loads firebug-lite into it, directing at this stage." Nov 22 16:55:48 but the html templates are missing from SDK...seems they don't want us playing with firebug just yet !! Nov 22 17:09:00 anyone saw the cpu scaling patch Nov 22 17:17:23 ElVox: nice find Nov 22 17:17:39 I don't suppose you've put what you got so far on webos101? :D Nov 22 17:35:48 does anyone know how to center a spinner widget Nov 22 17:42:10 good morning! Nov 22 17:42:27 diov_: Simple HTML,
Nov 22 17:43:33 hi all. Nov 22 17:43:48 I hate it when I get confused by scope. Nov 22 17:44:07 Morning Rick_work Nov 22 17:44:12 Why are you at work? Nov 22 17:44:13 Moring Jordan Nov 22 17:44:16 I'm not Nov 22 17:44:19 I'm on my work laptop Nov 22 17:44:23 Ah Nov 22 17:44:25 and it auto-identifies as work Nov 22 17:44:30 Yeah, sorry Nov 22 17:44:47 sokay Nov 22 17:44:53 and honestly I'm working Nov 22 17:45:01 Ha Nov 22 17:45:07 althought setinterval is going to kill me again. Nov 22 17:45:18 I HATE setintervals Nov 22 17:45:24 Every time I think I have scoping figured out for assistants, something beats me up Nov 22 17:45:25 I have so much trouble with them Nov 22 17:45:53 Do you ever visit everythingpre.com Nov 22 17:51:22 Rick_work: Ever visit everythingpre.com? Nov 22 17:53:38 not really Nov 22 17:53:58 Do you think anybody does? Nov 22 17:54:07 no idea Nov 22 17:54:12 hmm Nov 22 17:54:24 I'm debating if I should run ads. Nov 22 18:16:12 Everyone see this? http://forums.precentral.net/webos-patches/216384-patch-cleanup-event-listeners-fix-webos-1-3-1-memory-leak.html Nov 22 18:16:32 Looks like event cleanup got stricter under 1.3.1. I was counting on some automatic cleanup myself. Nov 22 18:16:57 I'm going to have to retest with the perf monitor to see if memory is leaking. Nov 22 18:17:20 1.3.1 has been nothing but hell for me Nov 22 18:18:22 Good thing is that it only makes my audio and backgrounds stop working Nov 22 18:18:31 whys that? Nov 22 18:18:40 Also: I never clean up my event listeners, waste of time Nov 22 18:19:01 pandora--: It prevents some cool features that Keen Studios uses in like every app Nov 22 18:19:02 Like inherit background Nov 22 18:20:06 Roy-Pre101: do you clean up event listeners? Nov 22 18:23:02 what exactly is WebOS quick install for Nov 22 18:23:15 and more importantly do I *really* need it Nov 22 18:23:18 everything Nov 22 18:23:27 Installing preware, patches, themes, etc Nov 22 18:23:47 I can't install those things without the additional program? Nov 22 18:24:08 WOQI gives you preware Nov 22 18:24:14 which you can install those things with Nov 22 18:24:47 so if i just want to enable ssh on my phone i have to use both woqi and preware to get there Nov 22 18:25:35 what's the reason for using JS if I need to clean up on exit? Nov 22 18:26:33 ?? Nov 22 18:26:48 anyone know how I can make my imageView area expand in landscape Nov 22 18:27:00 19:16] Roy-Pre101: Looks like event cleanup got stricter under 1.3.1. I was counting on some automatic cleanup myself. Nov 22 18:27:12 why do i need to do it on my own? Nov 22 18:27:13 that forum post makes little sense...garbage collection always cleans up after the apps - it isn't like you *can* cleanup objects at all. all he is doing is forcing events to become unregisted if the element is no longer in the DOM. while this is good, it also means that you would have to re-attack events if you insert that element again. Nov 22 18:27:25 attach Nov 22 18:27:41 ok Nov 22 18:28:09 but when I push a stage and pop it again, I do need to remove the event listeners on my own? Nov 22 18:28:19 what happens if I don't do it? Nov 22 18:30:10 this is a very complex issue in reality...if you bind events using anonymous functions you capture the current scope in the anonymous function...if your event is never unbound, the garbage collector can not throw out the objects that were captured by the anonymous function Nov 22 18:30:21 Hello Nov 22 18:31:45 Can someone help me? Nov 22 18:33:01 ElVox: thx, I usually use member functions from my assistant Nov 22 18:34:45 you should always try to remove event handlers when they aren't in use. Nov 22 18:38:55 Roy-Pre101: PING PING PING Nov 22 18:39:24 it quickly installs ipks Nov 22 18:39:31 whoa Nov 22 18:39:42 I guess I was still in the log :D Nov 22 18:39:44 * kesne brb Nov 22 18:41:10 kesne: PONG PONG PONG Nov 22 18:41:40 MetaView: Hmm, yes, perhaps I wasn't clear with my thinking/saying... If your app is running a long time it may leak now if you're not cleaning up everything. Nov 22 19:02:57 is sugardave here? Nov 22 19:06:34 nyone know how to samba mount on a Palm Pre? Nov 22 19:06:40 I want to mount my windows drive on the Pre's /media/mystuff/ Nov 22 19:08:02 kense: to clarify I meant how can you put a spinner in the middle of the page, not just cenetered Nov 22 19:08:15 synackfin1: AFAIK the samba components are not included by default with the pre. Check over in #webos-internals. There may be an optware package to install it Nov 22 19:08:19 Ah Nov 22 19:08:25 People: is kesne, not kense Nov 22 19:08:30 There is a difference Nov 22 19:08:39 And I don't get a notification if people say kense Nov 22 19:08:40 Roy: okay, thanks Nov 22 19:08:54 Kense is sensitive about his not-name. :D Nov 22 19:09:15 diov_: big one or small one? Nov 22 19:09:31 kesne: small one Nov 22 19:09:40 Roy-Pre101: :P Kesne is my online personality, a money-loving jackass Nov 22 19:09:47 Roy: btw, i found a resource for it: http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Samba_Access Nov 22 19:10:06 diov_:
Nov 22 19:10:10 That should auto set up Nov 22 19:10:32 diov_: This page is your friend: http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1712 Nov 22 19:11:04 kesne: thanks for the help Nov 22 19:14:06 diov_: no problem Nov 22 19:18:30 * kesne brb Nov 22 19:30:03 what is the best ssh tool to use for the pre? Nov 22 19:47:06 to do what? Nov 22 19:47:20 jlederman: to do what? Nov 22 19:49:02 sugardave: access my home computer from my pre Nov 22 19:49:18 for file transfer, or just shell access? Nov 22 19:49:25 both would be nice Nov 22 19:49:51 oh, you want something on the phone...not the other way around Nov 22 19:49:59 yes Nov 22 19:50:00 terminal and ssh/scp :D Nov 22 19:50:09 thanks, you da man Nov 22 19:51:19 also, do you know anything about the Internalz file manager? Nov 22 19:51:37 no, I don't Nov 22 19:51:38 im getting an error about ca.canucksoftware.filemgr is not running Nov 22 19:51:40 ok Nov 22 20:01:27 jlederman: Did you install the service for filemanager, too? Nov 22 20:14:15 does anyone know if percentages can be used in the css file to specify sizes? ex. width: 100 Nov 22 20:14:55 roy-pre101: that was the problem, all good now. thanks =) Nov 22 20:17:42 theycan diov but you have to say width:100% Nov 22 20:17:57 if you don't spec a unit,how is css to know % or px or ems Nov 22 20:18:22 Roy-Pre101 trying to use your music objet library. Nov 22 20:18:30 and I have a scope problem. Nov 22 20:18:32 :-/ Nov 22 20:18:43 thanks Rick_work Nov 22 20:19:03 Rick_work: what's the problem? Nov 22 20:19:30 in setup I do Music.setupMusic(Mojo.appPath + "images/dreidel2.mp3", true); Nov 22 20:19:49 and then in activate I do Music.playMusic(); Nov 22 20:20:02 and in deactivate I do Music.pauseMusic() Nov 22 20:20:06 sofar, so good. Nov 22 20:20:09 right Nov 22 20:20:38 nevermind Nov 22 20:20:48 glad I could help :D Nov 22 20:20:49 the stupid emulator de-instantiates the music object after a bit. Nov 22 20:20:52 * ElVox makes the looney sign :P Nov 22 20:20:53 yes Nov 22 20:20:54 it does Nov 22 20:21:04 well, THAT"S impolite. Nov 22 20:21:09 YAMS watchdog trips due to load or somehting Nov 22 20:21:24 f-ing stupd blah blah blah Nov 22 20:21:32 haha Nov 22 20:21:49 what music object? i need some musical routine :) Nov 22 20:22:06 Roy has a simple to use music object at webos101 Nov 22 20:22:09 just search for music Nov 22 20:22:16 ok Nov 22 20:29:44 * sugardave eyes kmax12-wirc suspiciously. Nov 22 20:34:04 * kmax12-wirc is testing his auto connect settings Nov 22 20:34:31 i think something changed in the sdk with gps in 1.3.1 Nov 22 20:35:06 it takes forever to get coordinates now, and they're wildly inaccurate (for google provided, not satellite provided) Nov 22 20:36:02 it's bizzare Nov 22 20:36:16 I'm in los angeles, google thinks i'm in long beach Nov 22 20:36:16 hmm is there sound in the emu? Nov 22 20:39:35 nvm Nov 22 20:41:51 ElVox: some sounds can work in the emulator Nov 22 20:41:53 ElVox: How's the meth app going? Nov 22 20:41:56 but, it's not worth it Nov 22 20:42:15 that is what i am trying to make :( Nov 22 20:42:48 hm Nov 22 20:42:49 The spinner widget provides all scrolling behavior. One is installed automatically in every scene Nov 22 20:42:52 "The spinner widget provides all scrolling behavior. One is installed automatically in every scene" Nov 22 20:42:59 how to use it? Nov 22 20:43:09 MetaView: that's wrong, it should be the scroller widget Nov 22 20:43:14 ok Nov 22 20:43:30 there is a scene scroller for each scene, unless you disabled it when you pushed it Nov 22 20:43:38 ok Nov 22 20:43:46 look what i did:
Nov 22 20:43:53 this.controller.get("mySpinner").mojo.start(); Nov 22 20:44:19 and what I got: "Error: Cannot call method 'start' of undefined," Nov 22 20:44:21 MetaView: did you set up the attributes and model for the spinner in your scene assistant? Nov 22 20:44:36 the docs said it isn't necassary Nov 22 20:44:48 but it is? Nov 22 20:45:04 yeah, you have to set up any widget Nov 22 20:45:18 except the provided SCROLLER for the scene...that thing you pasted is incorrect Nov 22 20:45:56 http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1712 Nov 22 20:46:02 so yes, you ned to call setupWidget on that spinner and pass it an attribute/model and then it should work Nov 22 20:46:13 "Like the Scroller widget, the Spinner widget does not need to be explicitly setup, " Nov 22 20:46:19 oh really? Nov 22 20:46:36 ok, works now, thx Nov 22 20:46:48 * MetaView should never trust the docs... Nov 22 20:46:50 then I think that's a doc bug Nov 22 20:46:59 a double doc bug... Nov 22 20:47:08 heh, score Nov 22 20:48:42 Microsoft's Law: By the time anything, is documented it has changed. Voxel's Law: The only documentation that can be trusted is the source code. Nov 22 20:49:38 lol Nov 22 21:15:08 anybody know of a good alternative to bountysource.com or micropledge.com (both defunct) that I can use to put a bounty towards a webos program? Nov 22 21:15:38 Preferably FOSS Nov 22 21:20:15 what's the webos program you want ? Nov 22 21:21:24 It's a real-time gas mileage program. I've posted about one at: http://forums.precentral.net/web-os-development/208345-palm-you-listening-ive-got-idea-its-good-no-really.html Nov 22 21:21:54 There's a closed source one for the iphone but the developer is not porting it Nov 22 21:23:23 program would utilize accelerometer and GPS to determine instantaneous fuel consumption as a function of acceleration, wind resistance, parasitic loss (from drivetran) Nov 22 21:24:14 alternative program would be like REV where software reads directly from ODBII port using a WIFI connection. Nov 22 21:24:37 there are ODBII <-> WiFi bridges ? Nov 22 21:24:41 yes Nov 22 21:24:54 let me see... I'll look it up.... Nov 22 21:25:54 http://www.devtoaster.com/products/rev/index.html under supported devices at the bottom of the page Nov 22 21:26:47 OBDKey WLAN and ElmCanII-WLAN and Kiwi(which I've never heard of) Nov 22 21:27:05 ah neat Nov 22 21:28:13 limited sampling rate of the accelerometer might be the biggest barrier .. but you can get better resolution using the homebrew accelerometer service Nov 22 21:30:09 yes. this is why it would be nice to go OSS. I am not sure if I am correct but I think homebrew software can be released that requires this...hack Nov 22 21:31:12 technically I just realized it doesn't need to even be open, just homebrew, but I do recognize that nobody would likely start the project without a bounty of some sort. Nov 22 21:31:36 how much are you willing to donate ? Nov 22 21:32:29 I would like to put up $100 to 150, depending on software capability, which probably isn't enough to interest anyone, that's why I'd like to pool money from more people (if they are interested). It's unfortunate that both those escrow type websites are gone Nov 22 21:33:13 there's rentacoder Nov 22 21:34:29 I saw that. I wonder if there are webos developers on rentacoder. Nov 22 21:34:31 but you may be better just trying to hook up with people on here or figuring it out yourself ? Nov 22 21:35:13 seems like it. there is someone who made a dragstats software who is integrating gforces into his/her app. Nov 22 21:35:28 may be a good developer to hook up with Nov 22 21:35:32 absolutely Nov 22 21:35:52 especially if you don't mind financing it with no return other than just feature requests Nov 22 21:36:41 true. I'll give it a shot. thanks. looks like someone named Beherrschen Nov 22 21:37:15 good luck Nov 22 21:37:49 thanks. This is my first foray into mIRC. Very pleasant indeed. I appreciate the conversation Nov 22 21:38:28 not a problem - enjoy your stay Nov 22 21:38:42 also, there is a #webos-internals channel that has a lot of the homebrew guys Nov 22 21:38:53 ok. ill check it out Nov 22 21:55:50 anyone using an IRC or SSH client on their WebOS device? Nov 22 21:58:10 lots in #webos-internals Nov 22 21:58:11 check there Nov 22 21:58:14 I'm using the Wirc app Nov 22 21:58:50 hampsterj: stable? Nov 22 21:59:15 Yea Nov 22 21:59:30 k. thanks. Nov 22 22:16:47 what do i have to do in order to ssh from my pre to my computer? Nov 22 22:25:48 I'm not sure hwta else to do, I have put an imageview in a drawer and I've added acelerometer support, but when I turn it landscape the Imageview doesn't expand. Not sure why but, when I said Imageview width to 100% nothing changes, how can I fix this Nov 22 22:25:54 *what Nov 22 22:26:11 *set Nov 22 22:47:42 jlederman: I think ssh is built-in but if not you'll need to install the optware ssh client. Nov 22 22:47:56 jlederman: These questions may be better asked in #webos-internals Nov 22 22:48:38 diov: Not certain. It doesn't automatically resize, you say? Nov 22 23:06:07 Roy-Pre101: yeah it's very odd Nov 22 23:08:38 couldn't you set fixed sizes? Nov 22 23:08:44 based on the screensize? Nov 22 23:12:42 using px you mean? Nov 22 23:13:07 yes, using CSS Nov 22 23:13:46 this.controller.get("myScroller").setStyle({ width: this.controller.window.innerWidth + "px"}); Nov 22 23:13:50 stuff like this Nov 22 23:13:59 I'll try it Nov 22 23:15:00 bbl Nov 22 23:17:00 MetaView: it worked! thanks for your help Nov 22 23:31:18 * ElVox wonders why the hell Mojo doesn't just set a damn className of "palm-landscape" on the App's tag in landscape mode so that we can do "body>#element{ ..not landscape.. }" and "body.palm-landscape>#element{ ..for landscape.. }" Nov 22 23:31:59 ..and then we wouldn't have to use javascript to do something that is a freaking design issue! Nov 22 23:33:05 Hello everyone Nov 22 23:33:39 haeffb: helo Nov 22 23:36:50 * haeffb-pre is struggling to find a good solution for displaying several fields in a list row. Hard to come up with looks good... Nov 22 23:40:27
 using web ad blocker on the pre... no luck?
Nov 22 23:46:44 
 hello?
Nov 22 23:47:58  try #webos-internals
Nov 22 23:48:29 
 thnx
Nov 23 00:08:55 * jamesog impatiently waits for his Pre to pick up 1.3.1
Nov 23 00:42:25  Hi, are javascript errors logged anywhere? I am creating a new scene, but it doesn't do anything. I am guessing there is an error somewhere.
Nov 23 00:45:28  thebitguru: on the emulator? in a command prompt, type "palm-log -f -d tcp your.app.name" to view the logs.  Check out Mojo.Log.error/warning/info in the docs.
Nov 23 00:49:14  haeffb_: cool, thanks.
Nov 23 00:55:56 * haeffb_ handled a pixi today. Very sweet phone.
Nov 23 00:56:41  thebitguru: you can also set the logging level in framework_config.json and put a tail on /var/log/messages
Nov 23 00:56:57  probably want to grep for your app, though, and filter out exteaneous messages
Nov 23 00:57:51  palm-log is simpler
Nov 23 00:57:53  have people seen the need for speed video on the pre?
Nov 23 00:58:05  supposedly using the gpu
Nov 23 00:58:15  haeffb_: not feeling the love from palm-log yet...probably just not doing it right
Nov 23 00:58:26  sugardave: thanks. I am thinking of donig some 'cut' magic to clean it up a big :)
Nov 23 00:58:48  thebitguru: cool, the only issue I've seen with it is that it will cut off long strings
Nov 23 00:59:26  cut does? Or the framework?
Nov 23 00:59:41  the output string in /var/log/messages is truncated
Nov 23 00:59:48  oh
Nov 23 00:59:48  it's a lot of chars
Nov 23 00:59:55  but big long strings will get cut off
Nov 23 01:00:12  yeah, 85 of the string chars are timestamp + other indicators.
Nov 23 01:00:20  yeah
Nov 23 01:00:30  and palm-log will just not show errors/warnings/infos with long strings. So, that's a drawback.
Nov 23 01:00:54  it won't or it will?
Nov 23 01:01:27  if the info message contains a long string, it just doesn't show up in palm-log.
Nov 23 01:01:33  lame
Nov 23 01:01:34  or error or warning
Nov 23 01:01:42  indeed.
Nov 23 01:02:07  but other than that, it works great. much better format than tail
Nov 23 01:03:12  [20091122-09:37:53.692395] info: INFO: modelChanged() was called while processin
Nov 23 01:03:12  g a previous model change. This is often unintended.
Nov 23 01:03:32  example output line from palm-log
Nov 23 01:04:11  taht is cleaner
Nov 23 01:04:18  I guess I will use that for now with -f flag
Nov 23 01:04:24  thanks, haeffb_
Nov 23 01:06:04  anyone have any thoughts? http://themxweb.com/2009/11/22/need-for-speed-caught-on-the-pre and read my thoughts.
Nov 23 01:11:00  kmax12: Going with fake for now.
Nov 23 01:11:22  It wouldn't surprise me if it was real.
Nov 23 01:12:02  Roy-Pre101: you guys talking bout need for speed?
Nov 23 01:12:09  I want real sooo badly
Nov 23 01:12:11  yeah
Nov 23 01:12:14  anybody got another link to it?
Nov 23 01:12:27  the person that had it removed it from his profile
Nov 23 01:12:58  dan
Nov 23 01:13:21  ahh
Nov 23 01:14:03  edektor : would it still be cached on my computer somewhere?
Nov 23 01:14:15  I dont know.. Maybe
Nov 23 01:24:08  I found the video in my cache
Nov 23 01:28:58  post it
Nov 23 01:30:38  trying to do it right now
Nov 23 01:30:42  k
Nov 23 01:32:35  If it was real, it means there's GPU access. I mean the info is there already around. It's not like this chipset has never been used in any other device before.
Nov 23 01:34:46  If I have function that is called onSuccess of a service request, how can I access this.controller in there?
Nov 23 01:35:00  this.controller.showAlertDialog says that it does not exist
Nov 23 01:35:03  thebitguru: depends on where you are
Nov 23 01:35:07  try this:
Nov 23 01:35:11  bind(this)
Nov 23 01:35:33  Mojo.Controller.stageController.activeScene().showAlertDialog(...);
Nov 23 01:35:39  or try the bind like edektor said
Nov 23 01:36:10  onSuccess: function() {...}.bind(this)
Nov 23 01:36:29  hi all!
Nov 23 01:36:55  awesome, that worked. Thanks!
Nov 23 01:39:46  I have the need for speed video hosted at themxweb
Nov 23 01:39:47  http://themxweb.com/category/blog/
Nov 23 01:39:59  or, here is the direct link
Nov 23 01:39:59  http://themxweb.com/2009/11/22/need-for-speed-caught-on-the-pre/
Nov 23 01:40:53  I wish palm would improve pre's battery life :|
Nov 23 01:43:34  looks like it might be a video playing on the pre
Nov 23 01:44:02  ya
Nov 23 01:44:04  it might
Nov 23 01:47:58  The comment about "Requires Nova 1.3.x" in the comment actually adds legitimacy to it IMO.  Nova obviously would be the codename for webos, but it really hasn't been heard much.. making it sound a lot more likely to be internal speak than made up
Nov 23 01:48:50  ya
Nov 23 01:49:01  I think there are a lot of real thing in it
Nov 23 01:49:33  like if you look at the screenshots the appcatalog seems to have different numbero f ratings, suggesting maybe there is an internal app catalog server
Nov 23 02:03:52  Or it's fake.
Nov 23 02:06:39  why does precentral say the "reliable inside-information forum member Modular."
Nov 23 02:06:48  anyone know about the guy
Nov 23 02:07:00  this is in the nfs article
Nov 23 02:07:53  the guy just has a good track record about inside info before it's announced
Nov 23 02:08:37  do you guys know of any patch screwing up shutdown/restart menus?  I am getting Uncaught TypeError: Object # has no method 'machineReboot' in the log when I press those buttons
Nov 23 02:09:01  that sounds pretty bad
Nov 23 02:09:02  Scaredy: do you know what info he has had in the past?
Nov 23 02:09:32  luna-systemui/app/controllers/resetalert-assistant.js is the caller
Nov 23 02:10:27  not off hand
Nov 23 02:23:23 * jjore is kind of bummed that he hacked his palm to /not/ require a pin # but today's update forced it back on except... he doesn't recall his pin # and is now spelunking in the .js to prevent "Password incorrect. If you enter an incorrect PIN now your phone will be erased." from coming true.
Nov 23 02:27:24  Actually, uh, luna-send -n 1 palm://com.palm.systemmanager/setDevicePasscode '{"passCode":"1234","lockMode":"pin"}' seems like that's likely to be just what I want.
Nov 23 02:27:31  Anyone want to confirm that?
Nov 23 02:30:27  isure
Nov 23 02:30:40  s/is/s/
Nov 23 02:31:24  jjore, works like a charm
Nov 23 02:33:00  but then again i didn't have a password set to begin with
Nov 23 02:33:12  hopefully it wouldn't react differently if you had one
Nov 23 02:34:37  Ah, saying C<< luna-send -n 1 palm://com.palm.systemmanager/updatePinAppState '{"state":"unlock"}' >> didn't return. I killed LunaSysMgr and it retstarted that and came up w/o requiring a pin #.
Nov 23 02:35:40  However my pin was also definately 1234 after that call to set it.
Nov 23 02:36:38  Oh, or it was all the calls to `this.unlock();return;' I put before all the .js that had the warning "Password incorrect. If you enter an incorrect PIN now your phone will be erased."
Nov 23 02:36:52  I can't be certain this thing is "safe" yet.
Nov 23 02:46:59  hola folks! anyone know of a keyboard shortcut to hang up a phone call?
Nov 23 02:47:17  (my touchscreen just stopped working.)
Nov 23 02:47:59  how did that happen
Nov 23 02:49:38  @entity me? well.. it just stopped working, no joke.
Nov 23 02:49:55  damn that sucks
Nov 23 02:50:06  does anyone think the need for spend thing is wierd
Nov 23 02:50:07  ?
Nov 23 02:50:14  got off a phone call with my wife.. closed a couple apps.. set it down.. and then thirty seconds later opened it up again and the screen wouldn't respond.
Nov 23 02:50:17  that was two nights ago.
Nov 23 02:50:28  palm twitter: 1.3.1 headed to europe
Nov 23 02:52:18  hey atlanta in fla. hows it going?
Nov 23 02:52:32  good thinking about finishing up my apps
Nov 23 02:52:33  bmyers_here: u
Nov 23 02:52:34  ?
Nov 23 02:52:58  thinking about finishing my app but watching football instead..
Nov 23 02:53:05  lkol
Nov 23 02:53:08  have you pulled the vbattery
Nov 23 02:53:44 * haeffb_ getting ready to test how long it takes Palm to release an update in app catalog
Nov 23 02:54:06  @entity yes. have rebooted multiple times.. replaced with different battery.
Nov 23 02:54:17  whatcha goit comong out haeffb?
Nov 23 02:54:45  I'm planning on going into the sprint store to get a new one.. but hoping to backup everything first.
Nov 23 02:55:27  whatcha got coming out haeffb?
Nov 23 02:57:46  updated version of TaskAdder that will hopefully put an end to the support questions I've been getting
Nov 23 02:58:13  "How do I get a password?"  Go to http:/www.toodledo.com and register for an account.
Nov 23 02:58:59  well. feedback is valuable stuff
Nov 23 02:59:19  solved by putting "Go to http://www.toodledo.com" on the login screen... but probably have another week or two of questions before Palm gets the update in the catalog.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Nov 23 02:59:56 2009