**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 26 02:59:57 2010 Mar 26 03:13:07 hi all Mar 26 03:27:45 hey JenP Mar 26 03:27:56 hi rod, how ya doin? Mar 26 03:28:40 JenP: Save/Restore 0.3.0 in the testing feed now :-) Mar 26 03:28:54 oh wow! Mar 26 03:29:03 my god you guys get so much done Mar 26 03:29:19 well, we have 3 people working on it Mar 26 03:29:46 smiles...still pretty cool Mar 26 03:50:13 ok Save/Restore 0.3.1 should be reasonably useable Mar 26 03:59:12 oi oi oi Mar 26 04:00:18 e.g. http://www.webos-internals.org/images/7/76/Saverestore_ss2.png Mar 26 04:09:14 Hey, I've got a question if someone has a moment Mar 26 04:09:41 shoot Mar 26 04:09:45 god damn it Mar 26 04:09:49 dev website is goner Mar 26 04:10:00 Indeedly. This is why I'm having trouble :p Mar 26 04:10:09 So I'm trying Ares and I can't figure out how to reference an element on a scene Mar 26 04:10:27 I'd like to update the value of a text box in an event. How do I reference the button? Mar 26 04:15:42 its all html and js Mar 26 04:15:52 so I do a controller.get("id") Mar 26 04:22:02 hi all Mar 26 04:22:27 hola Mar 26 04:22:34 are palm em/ Mar 26 04:22:38 emp? Mar 26 04:22:59 me?....no Mar 26 04:23:11 damn it Mar 26 04:23:18 Thanks Ron_frown Mar 26 04:23:24 palm dev site being down is putting a dent in my ability =) Mar 26 04:25:16 I didn't realize the site was down Mar 26 04:29:23 yeah Mar 26 04:29:24 sucks Mar 26 04:29:37 I got no infos or reference stuff Mar 26 04:44:04 Sooo... is chuq upgrading/changing the forums now? Mar 26 04:44:29 (developer.palm.com is down) Mar 26 04:44:58 yep Mar 26 04:45:06 well that its down Mar 26 04:55:01 damn it.... site down = blown night of work Mar 26 04:55:32 Yeah I feel a little frustrated. Mar 26 04:57:41 UTSL Mar 26 05:21:15 dev center back! Mar 26 06:11:30 Sites back up **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 26 13:06:14 2010 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Mar 26 13:09:37 2010 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 26 13:12:14 2010 Mar 26 13:12:19 this is on one device. works for everyone else... Mar 26 13:12:20 haeffb_pre: do you have access to the logs? Mar 26 13:12:33 no Mar 26 13:12:38 cookies? Mar 26 13:13:11 I had him send me the db. which was created. but tables were not. Mar 26 13:13:12 if you set a cookie for first run or something like that Mar 26 13:13:30 no cookies involved Mar 26 13:13:32 can u create tables in that db? Mar 26 13:14:00 I copied it to my phone and the tables were created. Mar 26 13:14:29 weird.. Mar 26 13:14:37 I had him uninstall & redownload first. still no go. Mar 26 13:14:46 I am stumped. Mar 26 13:15:12 device version? Mar 26 13:15:32 new Verizon phone Mar 26 13:15:53 1.3.5 ? Mar 26 13:16:21 sent him the db back from my phone. maybe that will work... Mar 26 13:16:51 only thing i could think of doing is sending him a specially made ver that will capture the try/catch data and send it to you Mar 26 13:17:56 yeah, might need to do something like that. have to teach him dev mode, wosqi, etc Mar 26 13:19:11 o, filecoaster feed? Mar 26 13:20:01 palm beta feed? Mar 26 13:21:03 there ya go Mar 26 13:21:29 does that take a week to push an app thru also? Mar 26 13:24:39 no I think it's immediate. they don't review? Mar 26 13:24:59 ooh, i should do that with GR Mar 26 13:39:02 Bmyers: a beta app should be available within 2 hours of submission. No review required Mar 26 13:39:19 of course, that is assuming the submission / app catalog are in working order Mar 26 13:40:02 now on day 3 of my company's app being unavailable in the app catalog or via direct link download due to brokenness of palm's system Mar 26 13:42:41 day 3 of beta listing waiting? Mar 26 13:42:52 oh, no Mar 26 13:43:08 day 3 of our previously live app being unavailable Mar 26 13:43:29 ouch Mar 26 13:43:44 my app cat is not listing new downloads.. Mar 26 13:43:52 but at least its there i suppose Mar 26 13:44:06 (and coincidentally, the private, beta app version i uploaded 4 days ago is unavailable too) Mar 26 13:49:37 god, not being able to respond to people leaving reviews is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo frustrating Mar 26 14:01:24 yes. it is. Mar 26 14:01:57 especially when they complain about your app not working and never contact u for support Mar 26 14:02:11 put a message to reviewers in the app description? Mar 26 14:02:56 saying "I will hunt you down and beat you to a bloody pulp if you dont cant me b4 adding a bad review" Mar 26 14:03:09 contact me.. Mar 26 14:05:51 palm makes us provide support options. but they dont make users use them before leaving a bad review Mar 26 14:06:06 haeffb_pre: I have in my app description: Feel free to email [email address] if you are having any problems, or to request new features (We cannot respond directly to any comments left in the App Catalog reviews.) Mar 26 14:06:36 good stuff Mar 26 14:07:05 i think i'll try the bloody pulp blurb and see if that helps things.. Mar 26 14:07:29 instead of 'feel free' maybe 'PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE' Mar 26 14:08:08 go with bloody pulp... Mar 26 14:08:43 of course, noone can currently leave a review on my 1 app due to it being unavailable :) Mar 26 14:09:00 consider yourself lucky.. Mar 26 14:10:19 just submitting my GR app to beta palm Mar 26 14:15:11 done. Mar 26 14:16:30 2 hrs eh? lets see Mar 26 14:21:28 * rwhitby chuckles that commits to preware feeds take a maximum of 15 minutes to be processed :) Mar 26 14:21:53 thats why i was asking about it rwhitby Mar 26 14:26:06 hey, says its published.. Mar 26 14:26:25 guyrules reader Mar 26 14:27:22 but the app url still says not currently available Mar 26 14:50:54 anyone else excited about the htc evo? Mar 26 14:51:15 it's not webos but damn it looks nice Mar 26 14:56:21 is there a way to release a beta app to the palm app cat that requires that you've purchased the release version of the app? Mar 26 14:56:40 no Mar 26 14:56:55 unless you are recording device ids, i guess Mar 26 14:57:41 i am Mar 26 14:58:11 good idea.. Mar 26 15:01:04 that reminds me, I need to create some app with finds all the 'phone home' activity by palm and other app catalog apps. Mar 26 15:01:14 s/with/which/ Mar 26 15:01:31 how do you plan on doing that? Mar 26 15:01:43 read all the js files and look for ajax calls? Mar 26 15:01:48 it's Linux. iptables can do anything. Mar 26 15:01:59 so can grep Mar 26 15:02:21 a cloud app could get data and not be phoning home Mar 26 15:02:44 yep Mar 26 15:02:58 that's why capturing the data will be important Mar 26 15:03:16 look for nduids in the packets? Mar 26 15:03:27 that wont be a battery/cpu killer... Mar 26 15:04:16 actually, iptables stuff would be quite efficient, since it's built into the kernel and only does things when there is traffic Mar 26 15:04:35 and theres like tons o traffic.. Mar 26 15:04:58 gonna sniff every packet of a youtube video? Mar 26 15:05:12 gonna sniff every packet of a radiotime? Mar 26 15:05:32 well, you'd have an exception based logging system Mar 26 15:05:45 getting complicated already.. Mar 26 15:05:56 sure, it's a complicated field. Mar 26 15:06:00 radiotime has a phone home i think.. Mar 26 15:06:58 but I'd start with just connections anyway. need to find out which apps are sending data around when I'm not actually using them, and eating up my 3G data allocation (no unlimited plans in Australia) Mar 26 15:07:24 most apps just report home when u run them Mar 26 15:07:45 then you'd assume that any phoning home is in the first N packets when an app starts up Mar 26 15:08:23 iptables can easily capture the first N packets of each connection, and have no overhead for the rest of the movie or radio stream Mar 26 15:08:59 that should be enough to characterise each connection pair Mar 26 15:09:28 the converge on a set of allowed streams, and report any exceptions Mar 26 15:10:06 * rwhitby puts that on the list for when Save/Restore is finished Mar 26 15:11:49 * rwhitby bbt - night all Mar 26 15:11:57 l8r rwhitby Mar 26 15:33:29 hi Mar 26 15:33:39 how to delete cookie via putty Mar 26 15:39:38 why putty? Mar 26 15:40:01 an app cookie or browser cookie? Mar 26 15:40:05 i ssh to emulator Mar 26 15:40:12 app cookie Mar 26 15:40:25 i want to delete app cookie for testing Mar 26 15:40:57 i use cookie.get() to judge if the app is first running Mar 26 15:47:02 haeffb_pre: any suggestion? Mar 26 15:53:23 why not delete the app? Mar 26 15:53:31 Murder? Mar 26 15:53:35 What? Mar 26 15:53:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdMEllAKrcc&feature=youtu.be Mar 26 15:53:54 why not murder the app? Mar 26 15:53:55 * halfhalo_T400 thinks thats the best webos commercial yet. and its not even from palm Mar 26 15:54:01 got it Mar 26 15:54:04 I like where this is going.... Mar 26 15:54:31 but just want to know where the app cookie stores? Mar 26 15:54:46 Theres a cookie db somewhere..... Mar 26 15:54:52 Somewhere, over the rainbow.... Mar 26 15:55:12 * halfhalo_T400 is hyped up on pepsi Mar 26 16:09:57 afternoon all Mar 26 16:10:03 ola Mar 26 16:10:34 time for the daily question: is it possible/practical to use multiple js sources for one scene? Mar 26 16:10:50 I know you CAN, but I never have Mar 26 16:11:36 so in the sources.json, would you just point to the particular folder, like you do for the scene Mar 26 16:12:04 No idea, I have never done it myself Mar 26 16:13:02 okdoke, just trying to avoid sql, and i'd rather procrastinate learning it Mar 26 16:13:10 heh Mar 26 16:13:27 BigBiff: are you use 1.4? Mar 26 16:13:30 once upon a time I got a mysql certificate...... Mar 26 16:13:37 if so, try persistence.js Mar 26 16:13:56 it's ORM for javascript Mar 26 16:14:00 i try it in 1.4 Mar 26 16:14:13 it works well, but can not work in 1.3.5 Mar 26 16:14:16 don't know why Mar 26 16:14:19 i know not of what you speak Mar 26 16:14:29 (yodaism, sorry) Mar 26 16:14:44 http://zef.me/2774/persistence-js-an-asynchronous-javascript-orm-for-html5gears Mar 26 16:14:58 thx benluo i'll check it out! Mar 26 16:15:12 you do not need use sql Mar 26 16:15:16 just a object Mar 26 16:16:10 i did a demo Mar 26 16:16:13 in google code Mar 26 16:16:45 http://code.google.com/p/shizi/ Mar 26 16:17:58 it looks like it still requires an external database? Mar 26 16:18:37 html5 Mar 26 16:18:46 html5 (sqlite3) database Mar 26 16:18:50 what's your request Mar 26 16:20:15 i was just trying to keep all my objects within the initial js sources, i've never messed with sql - i'm still learning Mar 26 16:20:44 building some rather large lists for submenus/listselectors Mar 26 16:21:12 trying to find the best way Mar 26 16:21:32 best = easiest Mar 26 16:22:19 Will they ever change? Mar 26 16:22:41 yes, dependent on previous selections - the choices arrays have to be built within the model Mar 26 16:23:39 that's why i was hoping to be able to use multiple source pages for one scene, so i can build the large arrays on separate pages Mar 26 16:23:53 just to keep the script easier to navigate Mar 26 16:24:11 hmmmmmmmmm Mar 26 16:24:14 use globe varible Mar 26 16:24:21 e.g. Mar 26 16:24:25 in a.js file Mar 26 16:24:49 var a = [very big array] Mar 26 16:25:24 i did it in my app shizi Mar 26 16:25:47 how did you point to that specific file? Mar 26 16:25:57 then store it in html5 database. then use functions in persistence.js to get some information Mar 26 16:26:09 ahh Mar 26 16:26:14 don't need point Mar 26 16:26:23 it's in globe scape Mar 26 16:26:26 scope Mar 26 16:26:35 just put it in source.js Mar 26 16:26:44 do you browse my app now? Mar 26 16:26:49 in google code Mar 26 16:26:52 it Mar 26 16:27:03 it's just a demo for persistence.js Mar 26 16:27:20 i think persistence.js is very cool Mar 26 16:27:36 it's much better than dept from palm Mar 26 16:27:43 let me check it out, sounds perfect (just have to learn it) Mar 26 16:28:16 it should work in your 1.4 Mar 26 16:28:36 but not to try in 1.3.5. it does not work. i'm not js expert, i don't know why Mar 26 16:29:56 here's one more different question/bug Mar 26 16:30:54 list selector - if the choice array is in the model, and one of the choices has no value, the listselector turns that choice into a labeled divider Mar 26 16:31:06 is this intentional? Mar 26 16:31:34 sorry. no idea Mar 26 16:31:40 heh Mar 26 16:31:56 and would it be unwise to exploit that bug? Mar 26 16:32:23 o well, i found it interesting Mar 26 16:50:42 chuq, u got a minute? Mar 26 16:51:28 chuqui, got a minute? Mar 26 16:51:44 lukewalker: sure. what's up? Mar 26 16:54:08 so i've got a new app i want to release. i was hoping to make it free, but would like to retain the option to change it to paid at some point in the future. i know the official policy is not to be able to switch between free and paid, so i was thinking if i uploaded it as a paid app (so that it would still only be available to currently paid countries), but simply made the price 0, then it could start as free. Mar 26 16:54:17 would that work? Mar 26 16:54:33 no. Mar 26 16:55:16 cuz free apps have a min price of .99 Mar 26 16:55:44 suggestion as an alternative. release a version as a "demo" or "light" version. If/when you're ready to publish it as paid, the issue it with soem new features as a "pro" version under a different app id. Mar 26 16:56:03 either that, or consider doing a free version as a beta app, and then publish a paid version later. Mar 26 16:57:28 hmm, ok. Mar 26 16:57:37 so whats the rationale between not being able to switch from free to paid (and back)? just out of curiosity... Mar 26 16:58:15 I think their just not set up to do it right now Mar 26 16:58:39 in other news, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! The V70 just got axed Mar 26 16:59:24 it was a decision by product management. I think halhalo is on the right track, keeping the system from being too complicated; it's something that might be done later. My worry is user confusion as much as anything. Mar 26 17:00:40 chuqui: still waiting for access to early dev Mar 26 17:00:59 yup. spent yesterday on the forum restructure. will get those in as soon as I can. Mar 26 17:01:03 well, i can see from the point of only distributing paid apps in certain regions, where that would introduce a whole new level of complexity if you were trying to keep track of apps that switch from free to paid and back Mar 26 17:02:29 but if a developer is willing to restrict an app's release to only regions that currently have paid apps, then i guess i just dont see the difference between being able to make an app that was paid be free for a while Mar 26 17:03:03 it doesnt seem to be any different to go from $3 to $2 as it would be to go from $1 to $0 Mar 26 17:03:47 chuqui: on another note. I had a 1 star / tech complaint review on my app. Gave me 1 star and said the app is broken and never contacted me for support. Mar 26 17:05:08 my other reviews say that the tech support is great. but this one guy decided not to do that. Mar 26 17:05:41 my rating should not have to suffer because of their choice no to pursue support. Mar 26 17:05:48 bmyers: thats the nature of the beast. i've had the same issue on one of my apps Mar 26 17:06:16 your best bet is to write a note to them in a review of your own, asking them to contact you for support Mar 26 17:06:19 it's not the nature of the beast Mar 26 17:06:32 lukewalker: if you want to write this up as a feature suggestion and email it to me, I'll get it to product management. Mar 26 17:06:47 chuqui: awesome! i will. thanks! Mar 26 17:07:02 is chuq(at)palm.com better or pdc(at)palm.com? Mar 26 17:07:11 bmeyers actually, it unfortunately is. but what really matters is the conesensus view, and the individual bad review will stand out as not in phase with the others, and the "rational person" will know to factor it out. Mar 26 17:07:14 the review system doesnt have the mechanism to ask, "is this tech support related" or a checkbox that says "i have contacted tech support Mar 26 17:07:59 chuqui: you have the ability to remedy the situation. Mar 26 17:08:16 bmyers: i think a better solution would be to somehow let developers see reviews (in the developer portal under "My Apps"), and then respond to them Mar 26 17:08:37 send a message or something Mar 26 17:08:38 I agree Mar 26 17:08:44 bmyers I fix specific types of issues. that's not one of them. Mar 26 17:08:56 how do i make it one of them? Mar 26 17:09:08 Palm needs to support developers Mar 26 17:09:13 we sell Palms phones Mar 26 17:09:36 a broken feedback system that allows for that doesnt do us justice.. Mar 26 17:09:56 if Palm wants to be around next year, they would do well to support developers better Mar 26 17:10:04 that way developers could reach out to users that can't find the "help" button in the menu or the "support" button on the page, but instead talk about problems in their reviews. Mar 26 17:10:14 with early release programs, a non broken feedback system, etc.. Mar 26 17:10:27 bmyers -- the policy I follow for deleting reviews is here: http://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=5815 Mar 26 17:10:58 we do support developers. we don't delete reviews because they don't like them, because we also have to be understanding that the reviewers are allowed to have a say, even if we don't like it. Mar 26 17:11:35 There's a slippery slope between "this review is inappropriate" and "I don't like this review", and my job is to be fair to both sides, developer AND reviewer. Mar 26 17:11:43 Palm makes us provide numerous methods of support. forums, emails, phone numbers Mar 26 17:12:16 they should require that users use the required support methods before leaving bad reviews Mar 26 17:12:28 I disagree with that Mar 26 17:12:47 You shouldn't have to force the users to do anything Mar 26 17:12:57 maybe nudge them in the direction, but never force Mar 26 17:12:57 bmyers: the problem is you could make the same argument for people that dont update their reviews. one of my apps has a much lower average rating than it should bc they havent updated their old reviews asking for features that i've since implemented Mar 26 17:13:12 could we do a better job of encouraging them to channel into support? yes. I am talking with various folks to encourage us to do that. Should we force it? no. Mar 26 17:13:50 part of my role in moderating app reviews is to prevent developers from intimidating reviewers from speaking their opinion, too. it goes both ways. Mar 26 17:14:34 It's just unfortunate that users can severely impact the sales of our apps. I've had users review my app saying they don't like the app, that's fine. But what bothers me is when they say it doesn't have X/Y/Z feature when it /does/, they just didn't bother to look for it at all. Mar 26 17:14:37 I think having a message in the review submit scene that basically states "Have a support issue, tap here to ask the developer for help Mar 26 17:14:39 " Mar 26 17:15:25 intersting fact: about 47% of reviews submitted are 5* Mar 26 17:15:28 halfhalo: right. and if they havent requested support and still leave a review like that it should be policy to have it removed Mar 26 17:15:41 chuqui: what percentage are 1*? :p Mar 26 17:15:46 we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Mar 26 17:15:47 Or just have a button that says support that goes to another form that sends a support ticket Mar 26 17:16:05 also, can you remove reviews from that percentage that apply to pandora? :p Mar 26 17:16:08 vincentlaw: I've seen it under 10%. I've seen it as high as about 18% Mar 26 17:16:12 and Bmyers: They should not be removed, just gently prodded Mar 26 17:17:09 it depends on the whole "install failed" miasma, it's been running about 16% before my moderating, and probably half that after. I didn't run numbers after this last set of updates. Mar 26 17:17:12 reviews like that are common? tech support related Mar 26 17:17:25 itd be nice if palm could provide some kind of api to see if people have left/updated reviews Mar 26 17:17:34 yes, exactly.. Mar 26 17:17:45 that way devs could incentivize users to leave reviews Mar 26 17:17:46 correct me if I'm wrong, but is there any way for developers to check (without implementing specific code in the app) who bought the app, for support reasons? particularly when people ask for a refund? Mar 26 17:17:51 i would like to help the guy, he said he liked the program Mar 26 17:17:53 I haven't seen any Mar 26 17:18:08 it'd be nice if Palm had an API so I could moderate them easily. And they will, since I just got permission to write it. the app review implementation is -- naive. Mar 26 17:18:09 I'm envisioning a button in the app submit scene that only says "App Support" that takes you to another scene that lets the user fill out a bug/feature report. This would then be fired off through palm support and made available to devs for use in their own bug system Mar 26 17:18:28 and it's something that needs a lot of work, and it's something I am working to help people understand how to improve. Mar 26 17:18:29 bingo.. Mar 26 17:18:50 I'd just be happy to interact with users having issues. Doesn't need to be a complex bugtracker Mar 26 17:18:54 chuqui: nice Mar 26 17:19:05 a questionare of sorts rather than a bitch box with stars.. Mar 26 17:19:14 Its not obtrusive, but is there for those who are making a spur of the moment review to complain Mar 26 17:19:33 halfhalo: you could implement that yourself on your own apps Mar 26 17:19:48 already is, ties into redmine Mar 26 17:19:54 I mean, excuse me for being blunt -- whoever designed it didn't see a need for a public-modifiable setup with a block list or a word filter. whoever designed it (I don't know, it was before I got here) doesn't understand social systems at all. Mar 26 17:19:55 cool Mar 26 17:20:17 and it shows. And fixing it is something I'm working on within the larger set of priorities of things we need to put cycles on. Mar 26 17:21:04 i even had ppl complain my app was broken in the review feedback Mar 26 17:21:18 only to later update it and say "oops, I need to restart my phone" Mar 26 17:21:24 chuqui: thanks for acknowledging the problem :p Mar 26 17:21:35 which is probibly whats wrong with this user also Mar 26 17:21:45 hey Mar 26 17:21:45 is that my fault or the phones fault? Mar 26 17:21:51 ping roy-pre101 Mar 26 17:21:52 chuqui: is there some sort of official method for handling users that want a refund? Mar 26 17:22:06 aka, proving that they actually bought the app for example? Mar 26 17:22:10 swisstomcat: pong Mar 26 17:22:32 poing Mar 26 17:22:37 palm's policy is no refunds Mar 26 17:22:50 that's what I thought Mar 26 17:23:16 of course, the fact that they can't download the app isn't particularly my app's problem in the first place Mar 26 17:23:17 :p Mar 26 17:23:38 it's a 500KB game, not exactly pushing the boundaries Mar 26 17:24:03 and that's why complaints in the app reviews about the "can't download" or "won't install" are removed, so they won't affect an app's rating. Mar 26 17:24:13 My app comes in at right under 50kb fresh installed Mar 26 17:24:21 yeah. this particular user emailed me about a refund though, thankfully Mar 26 17:24:46 i guess my gripe is that the feedback system has no resolution system. but its the developer that has to suffer for that. Mar 26 17:24:56 hey chuq Mar 26 17:24:58 yeah, and sounds like they're working on it though Mar 26 17:25:00 which is good Mar 26 17:25:09 I know Palm has a lot of things on their plate Mar 26 17:26:16 bmyers agreed. that's something I want to see changed. My hope is to implement something similar to what amazon does with the "is this review useful/" and use the review feedback on a review as a way to judge which ones to promote and which ones to bury. Mar 26 17:26:21 make the reviews self policing. Mar 26 17:26:33 but even then. complain that an app doesnt work. palm not providing any method on correcting the problem to the developer and just saying "take you lumps"? Mar 26 17:26:49 is having a review removed due to the feature later being added (aka, saying there's no sound when there is?) a grounds for removing a review? it's the only 1 star review I have Mar 26 17:27:03 chuqui: one quick fix that would go pretty far in improving the review system before the complete overhaul is done would be adding a field that shows what version the app is/was at when the review was left. just between the stars and the date field. that way if users choose not to update their reviews, potential buyers can see at a glance that the app has been updated since the review was left, and devs wont suffer for u Mar 26 17:27:28 guess I should read up on the policy Mar 26 17:27:43 vincentlaw no, not at this point. but I want reviews to age and lose relevance over time, and ultimately fade to black. Honestly, I don't think what someone said about an app six months ago is generally very useful. Mar 26 17:28:05 chuqui: or five updates ago... :) Mar 26 17:28:12 I would like to see the ability to respond to individual reviews, ala newegg and manufactures comments Mar 26 17:28:33 no, lets re-invent the wheel.. dont go with what works.. Mar 26 17:28:37 OTOH, I don't like tying reviews to a specific release, because it opens ways for developers to game the review system. But if the relevance of a review fades over time (two months down, only counts .8 in the average, 3 months, .6, etc...) I think you keep reviews relevant and limit gaming. Mar 26 17:28:57 that'd be fine Mar 26 17:29:06 I haven't been really concerned with it, just curious Mar 26 17:29:08 I do not think the right answer is to turn the review area into a support forum. Mar 26 17:29:23 and opening it up to direct feedback opens it up to intimidation and abuse. Mar 26 17:29:33 I don't either. problem is, that's what users are using the reviews section for :/ Mar 26 17:29:41 ^^ Mar 26 17:29:50 so, too late.. Mar 26 17:29:55 no how do you fix that? Mar 26 17:30:05 tell the developer "too bad"? Mar 26 17:30:09 great policy Mar 26 17:30:15 it's not an easy fix, Bmyers Mar 26 17:30:34 educating users to do something more intelligent like asking for support vs dumping in a review is not easy to do Mar 26 17:30:41 true, and thats a valid point. but you could show what version of an app the review was left for without changing the average computation algorithm. i guess i just see it as more information about the review, just like how you have dates on the reviews. Mar 26 17:30:43 no, it's not. but here are three things I'd like to see: Mar 26 17:31:24 1) add a way for a developer to put a note into the top of the review area, so they can add information on how to get into the app's support channel. Try to redirect those people using the reviews as a support channel before they get in there. Mar 26 17:31:44 you already have that informatioin from us.. Mar 26 17:32:00 its required.. Mar 26 17:32:09 the support info is already put on the app page, Bmyers, but it doesn't mean users use it. not necessarily palm's fault Mar 26 17:32:11 the problem is the link is on the main app page, not on the "leave a review" page Mar 26 17:32:47 2) amazon "is this review useful?" style meta reviews, and use that to generate a "karma" rating for a review, and for the reviewer. Use that as a way to define placement and promince of reviews so that the reviews that are best rated by the other users get the most prominence, and reviews (and reviewers) that are rated negatively get buried. Mar 26 17:32:57 i think chuq's saying to put the link on the "rate this app", "reviewer", "review" scene Mar 26 17:33:19 3) age reviews over time so that there's a bias towards recent reviews, which helps focus the average rating and teh reviews displayed towards what's happening with the app now, not what might have been months ago. Mar 26 17:33:22 I really like the meta-review method Mar 26 17:33:45 bmyers: I think it would be nice to allow a developer to target a message specific to the review area. Mar 26 17:33:48 let users moderate themselves Mar 26 17:34:12 i really like those ideas Mar 26 17:34:18 self policing works, if you do it properly. And it's MUCH less resource intensive on our part. Mar 26 17:34:31 maybe if we could format the app description we could highlight stuff like that. Mar 26 17:34:54 App formatting, even basic paragraphs, underline, italics and bold would be nice :/ Mar 26 17:34:56 Ehhh... I'm wary of formatting Mar 26 17:34:58 instead of one big blob. Mar 26 17:34:59 for various reasons Mar 26 17:35:22 chuqui: 4) if a user has left a review, when they download an update, what if the app catalog popped up a dialog reminding them that they can update their review? Mar 26 17:35:30 Paragraphs at the very least, just to make it readable. Mar 26 17:35:40 formatting the app desccription is coming. Mar 26 17:35:42 i think part of the problem with old reviews is that users might not know that they can change a review once they've left it Mar 26 17:35:51 or maybe they forgot about it Mar 26 17:36:13 if it only reminded users that had already left reviews, then its not like you're spamming users for reviews Mar 26 17:36:22 telling the developer "too bad" over tech support issue is not acceptable.. Mar 26 17:36:28 chuq: i still have 0 star anonymous reviews "This is a test report. This is not a real bug. Please disregard." ... coming from the "report problem" bug Mar 26 17:37:01 that can be fixed now. not six months from now. Mar 26 17:37:04 wouldn't it be the best to delete ALL anonymous 0 star reviews? Mar 26 17:37:24 THEY ARE ALL ANNONYMOUS REVIEWS Mar 26 17:37:33 because we cant contact about support problems. Mar 26 17:37:39 argh. send me an email with those, and I'll nuke them. that actually looks like one of the engineers checking on a bug I reported. Mar 26 17:38:03 swisstomcat: to keep competitors from leaving 0 star anon reviews? ;) Mar 26 17:38:31 i am 99% sure that the second review from the top on one of my apps is from a direct competitor Mar 26 17:38:46 thec ompetitor 0 star reviews balance the developer 5 star reviews that get posted. Mar 26 17:38:52 luckily the 40 other good reviews have made his pretty much insignificant Mar 26 17:38:59 I've caught two developers doing that recently. Mar 26 17:39:11 chuq: no it was from people here testing if the "report a problem" is indeed a bug Mar 26 17:39:26 what if a developer reviews their own app and gives a 1 star! >.> Mar 26 17:39:31 ah. okay. send them to me. I'll flag themf or my next cleanup. Mar 26 17:39:33 i send you an email Mar 26 17:39:45 vincentlaw then I giggle and move on. Mar 26 17:40:06 chuqui: so can you see a link between developer accounts and reviews left? Mar 26 17:40:19 LukeWalker: IP checking for the win :p Mar 26 17:40:50 vincentlaw: not if they're on EVDO... Mar 26 17:40:59 not always, when when a devloper starts a review with "I am the developer....", and is putting a support message in, it's easy. And when they do it with 3 stars, that's fine. When they posted at as 5 stars and I catch itm they get an email. Mar 26 17:41:00 true, but you also have the reviewer's name Mar 26 17:41:36 name is what they enter.. could be bill gates review your app Mar 26 17:41:49 chuqui: whats the email say? most of the reviews that ive seen that are from devs are 5 star Mar 26 17:41:51 I'm not saying it's perfect deduction Mar 26 17:42:16 depends on how grumpy I am when I get around to it. Mar 26 17:42:34 "stop cheating or you're getting a time out" Mar 26 17:42:40 lol Mar 26 17:43:41 if my company lost as much stock and market share as Palm has in the last 3 months, i'd be getting around to doing stuff alot quicker.. Mar 26 17:44:01