**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 30 02:59:57 2010 Apr 30 03:01:32 hey guys can anyone lend me a hand with a css / scrolling scene issue? Apr 30 03:01:46 i want to have a fixed background behind a div that scrolls Apr 30 03:02:02 i.e. have a background fill the screen and not move as the scene is scrolled Apr 30 03:02:44 i've tried using z-index to put a div behind the other div and the scrollable div just doesn't show up Apr 30 03:02:52 jdforsythe: is it the same background for all your cards? Apr 30 03:03:59 something like this: #sceneBackground { Apr 30 03:03:59 background-image: url(../images/backgroundblue.png); Apr 30 03:03:59 } Apr 30 03:04:15 right now i have Apr 30 03:04:31 div#sceneBg { Apr 30 03:04:35 background-image... Apr 30 03:04:44 z-index:1; Apr 30 03:04:45 } Apr 30 03:04:46 then Apr 30 03:04:56 div#list { Apr 30 03:04:58 ... Apr 30 03:05:02 z-index:2 Apr 30 03:05:03 } Apr 30 03:05:30 but the div#list is just gone. if i remove the #sceneBg it shows and scrolls just fine Apr 30 03:08:47 jdforsythe: have you tried changing it from background-image to background? Apr 30 03:10:06 i think the problem may be that you can't have a scrollable div overlaying a non-scrollable div? Apr 30 03:11:53 if i just put the background on #list and tell it to be fixed, it is positioned at the top of the div and moves along with the scroll Apr 30 03:48:50 good evening everyone Apr 30 03:51:24 hi lonestar99 Apr 30 03:55:07 hello dpivs Apr 30 04:03:35 pretty crazy about the oil that is gonna hit louisiana Apr 30 04:05:41 http://news.cnet.com/2300-11386_3-10003291-9.html?tag=mncol Apr 30 04:10:06 LoneStar99: sersiouly not cool Apr 30 04:13:52 do not ever really care about oil spills, but when a 100-billion dollar company as all other similar companies have no fixes, that is f-cked up Apr 30 04:15:37 LoneStar99: I find it hard to beleive they cant stop the flow at least.... Apr 30 04:17:07 swishy: for some reason i do not find it hard to believe, b/c no testing has been ever done at that depth... almost 5,000 feet Apr 30 04:18:21 it is almost like the banking system meltdown, now depending on the government for help Apr 30 04:19:12 problem is these companies are to big not to fail... time and time again, bigger means really bad outcome Apr 30 04:22:20 LoneStar99: imho a smaller entity would have had to pay the price for such a bullsup I dont see why bigger players shouldnt also. Apr 30 04:25:57 the next bank failure is gonna be wells fargo Apr 30 04:26:17 why do you say thet? Apr 30 04:26:49 because it will become the largest bank in the united states, and is deeply flawed Apr 30 04:27:03 LoneStar99: itll be interesting alright Apr 30 04:27:08 meh, I'm happy with the Apr 30 04:27:09 m Apr 30 04:27:11 i have two accounts at wells Apr 30 04:27:36 very flawed Apr 30 04:29:15 heh, going to open a new actt tomorrow with them Apr 30 04:30:31 go ahead, but it will not be a good bank once all the wachovia accounts are turned into wells. Apr 30 04:40:14 at the end i am not banker, just stating that being large does not mean answers to anything, except more confusion to something that should have been a simple answer. Apr 30 04:42:27 just excited, that Palm has a new life! Apr 30 05:22:50 anyone around? Apr 30 05:23:01 canvas's scale function is giving me a headache Apr 30 06:38:03 Hey all Apr 30 06:42:25 Tman: try processing.js? Apr 30 07:16:53 hello Apr 30 08:05:04 does anybody know if there are plans to support syncML in webOS? Apr 30 09:58:01 how can i redesign a button.. so steup a custom style for a button? what is possible? Apr 30 12:22:36 noaXess: u still here? it is possible - i figured it out 2 days ago Apr 30 13:10:52 noaXess: start here http://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2168&start=0 Apr 30 13:11:26 if you want the button to not use the default button sizing, do not include x-mojo-element="button" in your html Apr 30 13:11:32 BigBiff: still her :) Apr 30 13:12:01 cool Apr 30 13:12:16 hi, what was the name of the screen when it is rotated 90 degree; something like panoramic? Apr 30 13:12:47 or widespread, or horizontal, what was it :S Apr 30 13:13:37 the forum search is very weak, just for the record Apr 30 13:15:31 any idea? Apr 30 13:35:05 portrait Apr 30 13:35:09 or landscape Apr 30 13:35:26 oops Apr 30 13:51:26 left or right Apr 30 15:32:29 wow, slow today Apr 30 15:34:16 hi Apr 30 15:35:14 so im putting my current app on the backburner - it works for my needs, that's all Apr 30 15:35:26 BigBiff: cuz it's fridayyyyyyyy Apr 30 15:35:27 next up i gotta get into dragging elements Apr 30 15:35:32 yes Apr 30 15:36:30 is there a snapTo(div or maybe x,y) function relevant for dragging? Apr 30 15:36:50 i havent seen it yet on the docs, but have only looked in a few places Apr 30 15:41:10 yes Apr 30 15:41:12 slow Apr 30 15:41:16 it's early. Apr 30 15:41:45 * pandora-- has more coffee Apr 30 15:43:34 coffee is good. Apr 30 16:14:05 ping Apr 30 16:14:21 did you.... just ping yourself? Apr 30 16:14:55 ping Apr 30 16:15:05 PONG! Apr 30 16:15:14 ding dong ditch! Apr 30 16:15:28 bing bong b...nevermind Apr 30 16:17:17 How's everyone doing today? Apr 30 16:17:25 good Apr 30 16:17:32 About to start new app Apr 30 16:17:39 it will be epic Apr 30 16:18:23 with a capitol e Apr 30 16:19:00 broke my tracking again last night (changed a table and forgot to keep it auto_increment) so im out 900 installs worth of data Apr 30 16:19:11 bah Apr 30 16:19:51 I'm redoing my tracking to have all apps in one table and just having a standardish link for all of them using .htaccess redirects Apr 30 16:20:12 what are you tracking? Apr 30 16:20:34 install count, carrier, device Apr 30 16:22:47 it also allows me to offer in app upgrade notifications if theres a new version out and there running the old (prompts user to upgrade), or if i need to kill a broken version (prompts user to upgrade and exits) Apr 30 16:26:05 mine does something similar to that, but is mostly just install and device Apr 30 16:26:19 but im changing it so its a much more modular approach Apr 30 16:26:50 dawm_: what app is this for? curious to see how it works... Apr 30 16:27:06 swap&drop, swap&drop trial and my beta app ringwhere Apr 30 16:27:46 will look them up Apr 30 16:28:33 heres the generic output Apr 30 16:28:34 http://webos.pastebin.com/SFfhVAUM Apr 30 16:29:16 my way is going to basically ping a url (something like /API/Update/appname which is re-written to go to api.php?method=track&app=appname and then have the rest of the data POSTed) and get a json response back Apr 30 16:29:46 why not just store the app name in the table and sort the data later Apr 30 16:29:57 mine just goes to callhome.php Apr 30 16:30:10 because.... I want to see it in google analytics on the server Apr 30 16:30:22 and the appname would still be in the json payload sent to the server Apr 30 16:30:23 clever idea Apr 30 16:31:16 im redoing mine in codeignitor w/ doctrine.. getting tired of doing it the old fashion way Apr 30 16:31:45 hah, I like the old fashioned way, esp since one codebase for all apps is nice Apr 30 16:33:54 so is this something that happens everytime you run the app? Apr 30 16:34:04 I'm debating what part of my app to write first Apr 30 16:34:23 and jhojho, mine only does it on new installs, upgrades Apr 30 16:35:00 hmm Apr 30 16:35:17 but for my preMonitor app, it sends it every 15 minutes while the app is open Apr 30 16:36:09 Hey, I'm trying to convert an Opera Widget into a webOS application, but I'm stuck on one piece of code Apr 30 16:36:28 Basically it pulls in an existing webpage using AJAX, places it in a temporary document, then parses through Apr 30 16:36:50 WebKit seems to get upset whenever I set the innerHTML to this other page ... probably because it has it's own HTML tags? Apr 30 16:37:02 I tried parsing out only the body, but it still crashes out at that point Apr 30 16:37:16 Has anyone done this before? Apr 30 16:39:03 hopefully, none of this tracking happens when the app is not active. i think i saw an instance of that with one of the earlier apps for webos. i uninstalled it.. (flighttracker or something. one of the flight tracking programs) Apr 30 16:39:09 Sometimes I wish Javascript would give me *some* kind of feedback or hint when it doesn't like something Apr 30 16:39:55 jhojho: I'm pretty sure 99% of people only track when the app is open Apr 30 16:40:16 Otherwise, its starts falling into the invading privacy realm Apr 30 16:40:33 hopefully Apr 30 16:40:36 Or killing battery realm ;) Apr 30 16:41:29 elyon: well, there's that too and i think it did happen with some apps. Apr 30 16:45:57 I still kind of wish we had the Mojo Messaging Service, so all our apps could rely on push rather than polling all these servers Apr 30 16:46:03 same Apr 30 16:46:11 but I want js services more Apr 30 16:46:27 I want Flash more ;) Apr 30 16:46:34 And for my AJAX call to work :) Apr 30 16:46:41 bah Apr 30 16:46:42 ajax Apr 30 16:47:01 you have to make the device physically fly somewhere to deliver/get data to be cool Apr 30 16:48:04 It's frustrating. I can load an external HTML page, I can parse it as a string, but I can't turn it into a DOM object so I can parse through without doing it by hand Apr 30 16:48:21 haha Apr 30 16:48:41 string.slice (string.indexOf ("
"), string.indexOf ("
") a million times does not sound like fun Apr 30 16:49:16 But ... I'm stuck. My code works great in Opera, but it quits out in WebKit, and Javascript doesn't give you any error messages, so who knows why it won't work. Apr 30 16:49:18 Ugh. Apr 30 16:50:39 i did not realize tethering was so good Apr 30 16:58:24 Ah hah! Perfect. Apr 30 16:58:37 The original code created a seperate HTML document, and placed the code in there Apr 30 16:58:49 Now I'm creating a new DIV, but not attaching it Apr 30 16:58:54 So it isn't as clean, but it works. Apr 30 16:59:24 So, FYI, use AJAX to load a page, then do something like this: var tempDocument = document.createElement ('div'); tempDocument.innerHTML = text; Apr 30 17:02:37 tethering rocks Apr 30 17:02:53 elyon: are you parsing html? Apr 30 17:04:23 i would be very interested to know how you're doing it Apr 30 17:05:27 not very many sites that are helpful with that - the first thing you get is "well this is a shady, unreliable process, but here's how you do it kind of with php" Apr 30 17:05:43 Yeah, sure Apr 30 17:06:01 so did you just create your own code/method? Apr 30 17:06:10 To load the page, I'm using an AJAX call like this: Apr 30 17:06:57 this.loadRequest = new Ajax.Request (url, { method: "get", evalJSON: "false", onSuccess: this.onSuccess.bind(this), onFailure: this.onFailure.bind(this) }); Apr 30 17:07:20 I save the request rather than letting it be a local variable, because otherwise it might be garbage collected Apr 30 17:07:31 I use bind on the event handlers, because otherwise the scope is weird when they're called Apr 30 17:07:45 Then when it comes through, I do something like this: Apr 30 17:08:31 function (transport) { var container = document.createElement ('div'); container.innerHTML = transport.responseText; } Apr 30 17:09:08 That's what the onSuccess function might have. The variable that's passed is called the transport, and I create a temporary DIV (but don't attach it to the document) and set it's innerHTML to the response text Apr 30 17:09:17 Then you can parse through by doing something like this: Apr 30 17:09:42 var items = container.getElementsByClassName('item'); Apr 30 17:09:57 Then you could set up a for loop to parse through all the items and do something with them Apr 30 17:10:18 It's obviously important that you have permission to use the document you're loading and parsing, but assuming you do, this can be a great way to pull info from the web Apr 30 17:10:37 And since webOS is HTML based anyway, you can often dump the original content into your app, and just set up some custom CSS styles Apr 30 17:11:20 ahhh - so your creating your own "page" and putting the external source into that Apr 30 17:11:29 that's cool Apr 30 17:11:45 is that 'standard'? Apr 30 17:12:14 or did you come up with that Apr 30 17:12:33 Well, it works in webOS :) Apr 30 17:12:43 The source I borrowed from seemed a little more formal Apr 30 17:12:54 It created a separate document, and loaded the source into it Apr 30 17:13:04 OOP-wise, that makes sense, but WebKit didn't like it Apr 30 17:13:13 hmmm Apr 30 17:13:24 Depending on the browser it might get upset since the code you're dumping in contains it's own HEAD and such Apr 30 17:13:35 right Apr 30 17:13:52 I don't think there's any adverse affects to this approach, but it still might make sense to let it be garbage collected once you're done Apr 30 17:13:57 So get what you need, then let it go Apr 30 17:14:54 I like Actionscript 3 better than Javascript, but so far things are going alright with picking up the language Apr 30 17:15:12 I just miss code highlighting, code completion and good compile time and runtime errors Apr 30 17:15:34 Occasionally all my code doesn't work because I forgot a comma or missed a semi-colon and it bugs me :) Apr 30 17:16:03 FlashDevelop would tell me what went wrong in my Flash code, but Javascript just ... fails. It doesn't say much of anything :) Apr 30 17:16:21 use the chrome debugger Apr 30 17:16:54 g'afternoon all Apr 30 17:17:09 For webOS? Apr 30 17:17:20 yeah Apr 30 17:17:23 I mean, I use Opera's debugger for standard websites all the time, and it's great Apr 30 17:17:37 anyone know a website to browse the app catalog Apr 30 17:17:39 you can pipe the emulators output to chrome on the desktop Apr 30 17:17:51 http://www.myappbox.com/#main Apr 30 17:18:08 So it works kind of like the Palm Inspector, but for Javascript rather than CSS/DOM? Apr 30 17:18:29 sorta Apr 30 17:18:51 I'm using Putty to get the log output. That, at least, is very helpful, because I can trace my way to seeing where it's failing Apr 30 17:18:51 the way it works is the app is literally running in chrome Apr 30 17:18:59 heh Apr 30 17:19:05 I just use palm-log -f appname Apr 30 17:19:19 What does that do? Apr 30 17:19:35 gets the log of the app you tell it to Apr 30 17:20:06 Would that be in the command line, or in the emulator? Apr 30 17:20:12 Command line I guess? Apr 30 17:20:13 command line Apr 30 17:21:20 Wow, that's a lot cleaner than what I get from SSH Apr 30 17:21:57 Hmm, cool Apr 30 17:22:04 Now I just need to find a way to funnel that into my IDE Apr 30 17:23:40 magic always works Apr 30 17:24:00 So you run the app in the emulator, are you doing anything special to get it to work with Chrome's debugger, or is it automatically available to any webkit-based debugger? Apr 30 17:24:11 you have to use an ssh tunnel Apr 30 17:25:05 But it isn't just for logging, you can run your own Javascript command line and such? Apr 30 17:25:22 the palm-log is jsut logging Apr 30 17:25:29 the in chrome thing needs a tunnel Apr 30 17:25:35 Ah, no, I mean the in chrome thing Apr 30 17:25:47 You have access to a Javascript command line and such? Apr 30 17:26:14 not that I know of.... it should give you js errors though Apr 30 17:26:25 Same as palm-log, or more verbose? Apr 30 17:26:48 its just the damn built in chrome dev tools Apr 30 17:26:55 I have no idea how verbose they are Apr 30 17:27:05 Here's what I'm asking ... Apr 30 17:27:07 Hell, it works in safari as well Apr 30 17:27:17 I can get the log already, without installing Chrome Apr 30 17:27:32 Is there an advantage to it's debugger over using palm-log in a command line? Apr 30 17:27:54 I haven't used it before. I just know all that I can do using Opera's debugger, which I really like Apr 30 17:28:04 yes, since it both incorporates a better palm-inspector type thing while also getting JS stuff Apr 30 17:28:15 I think opera and chrome have similar things Apr 30 17:28:22 I see, okay, well I might look into it sometime Apr 30 17:29:11 I like Opera a lot though -- it's faster than Chrome, has stuff like email, IRC and also acts as a web server for content Apr 30 17:29:32 It's pretty sweet. You can share your music, photos, documents, etc. over the web with a couple clicks Apr 30 17:29:45 So I'm building a webOS app so you can stream music off your computer Apr 30 17:30:06 nice Apr 30 17:30:20 I think the documents would come really in handy, too Apr 30 17:30:37 It's password protected, but instead of uploading your stuff to the web somewhere, it's on your own machine Apr 30 17:30:59 So you could share a folder on your desktop, go out with your phone and pull up any files you might ever want Apr 30 17:31:06 Without having to sync or store it on the phone Apr 30 17:31:25 yeah, there is one or two apps that do that already Apr 30 17:31:25 My biggest problem with making webOS apps so far has been content permissions Apr 30 17:31:43 So, if its your own content, I don't need to get copyright permission to access it Apr 30 17:31:53 For files, photos, music, or all of the above? Apr 30 17:32:02 all of the above Apr 30 17:32:17 Do you know what they're called? Apr 30 17:32:28 not off the top of my head Apr 30 17:32:41 Oh and it works for Mac, Windows and Linux Apr 30 17:33:01 although one in a close category would be zumo drive, and a music only one is ampachpre Apr 30 17:33:44 Yeah, I'm looking at that now Apr 30 17:33:55 So I see Grooveshark lets you access your music, if you upload it to them Apr 30 17:34:02 ZumoDrive seems like the same, but for files Apr 30 17:34:56 I see. Yeah, thanks for the references Apr 30 17:35:16 I'm still interested in working this out, because not having to upload to another server is really cool sometimes Apr 30 17:35:33 My wife throws photos on the computer, I pull them up on the phone Apr 30 17:35:41 Symbian 3 is a copy of WebOS http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-20003860-92.html?tag=newsLatestHeadlinesArea.0 Apr 30 17:36:44 oh what the Apr 30 17:37:29 Well, I guess it might make it easier for PhoneGap or something else to provide a compatibility layer Apr 30 17:37:39 So your app looks fine in multiple platforms Apr 30 17:45:40 ok this very weird symbian 3 even uses the same development IDE and plugin as WebOS http://developer.symbian.org/wiki/index.php/Web_Runtime_(WRT)_Quick_Start_with_WrtTools Apr 30 17:54:40 Yeah, but look at how ugly their "Hello World" screenshots are Apr 30 17:54:57 webOS definitely has more finesse Apr 30 17:55:17 LoneStar99: weird. have you played with symbian 3? Apr 30 17:55:24 LoneStar99: it's pretty cool Apr 30 17:55:25 is responseJSON a Prototype thing? Apr 30 17:55:52 i dunno, i always just set it to false Apr 30 17:56:06 pandora: not yet Apr 30 17:56:37 but if if uses similar tools, might give it a try Apr 30 17:57:48 maik: pretty sure "responseJSON" is prototype Apr 30 17:57:48 pandora: have you tried it out? Apr 30 17:58:26 if i don't want to include Prototype in a (non-webOS) project i'm working on, is it safe to use eval to process the returned text ? Apr 30 17:58:55 i've heard "DONT USE EVAL!" and i've managed to avoid it until now, but this looks to be the generally accept practice for json Apr 30 18:01:37 the old data sample said "do not use responseXML" although i have no idea why - works fine for me Apr 30 18:04:06 I heard one thing at Palm Developer Day ... Apr 30 18:04:16 webOS uses Google's V8 Javascript engine Apr 30 18:04:33 One of the optimizations takes Javascript and converts it into a psuedo-class structure Apr 30 18:04:50 If you use eval() in your code, it breaks the optimization, so the entire file will run much slower Apr 30 18:05:16 heh Apr 30 18:05:28 I think there's an evalJSON property on the Ajax object, if you need it to turn it into an object for you Apr 30 18:05:41 i'm not using Prototype Apr 30 18:05:43 woohoo Apr 30 18:05:43 Otherwise you can dump it into an HTML element if you need to run DOM stuff on it Apr 30 18:05:47 this isn't a webOS project Apr 30 18:05:48 Oh, not Prototype Apr 30 18:06:03 Yeah, I use jQuery outside of webOS Apr 30 18:06:12 i'm not really worried. i trust the source Apr 30 18:06:18 I'm not as sure how other javascript engines optimize code. Apr 30 18:06:23 Not a HUGE deal, probably Apr 30 18:26:17 http://weblogs.asp.net/yuanjian/archive/2009/03/22/json-performance-comparison-of-eval-new-function-and-json.aspx Apr 30 18:27:04 V8 will optimze eval'ed strings if they are pretty much static. Apr 30 18:31:51 i requested for rejection Apr 30 18:31:54 it still went through Apr 30 18:31:54 wtf Apr 30 18:32:05 haha Apr 30 18:36:11 heh Apr 30 18:36:27 burn the update Apr 30 18:36:30 always works for me Apr 30 18:57:31 just uploaded my update Apr 30 18:57:36 hopefully this one goes fast -_- Apr 30 18:57:37 whee! Apr 30 18:57:50 I need to redo the palmspot happ Apr 30 18:57:55 man, maintaining these apps are not easy =-) Apr 30 19:00:32 lies Apr 30 19:07:03 on top of that i m not even making any profit -_- Apr 30 19:07:31 profit? what's profit? Apr 30 19:07:35 an hour of work is worth 1 month of ad revenue -_- Apr 30 19:07:40 lol Apr 30 19:07:54 i guess i just need to make some good apps that actually would make some money Apr 30 19:16:55 hmm, having trouble finding docs on dragging Apr 30 19:17:31 Reordering a list, or custom dragging? Apr 30 19:17:40 custom dragging Apr 30 19:17:46 Hmm, not sure Apr 30 19:17:48 not associated with list Apr 30 19:18:24 BigBiff: Check webos101.com Apr 30 19:18:35 (Sheesh, do I need to get a bot that announces this periodically?) Apr 30 19:18:40 ya, just did - not much there Apr 30 19:18:58 * BigBiff nudges haeffb to hit up the webos101 Apr 30 19:19:16 I could put up something from my app. Apr 30 19:19:19 Pretty straightforward stuff Apr 30 19:19:35 $("dragger").observe('mousedown', this.dragStartHandler); Apr 30 19:19:35 document.observe('mousemove', this.draggingHandler); Apr 30 19:19:35 document.observe('mouseup', this.dragStopHandler); Apr 30 19:19:54 In dragging: Apr 30 19:19:55 var x,y; Apr 30 19:19:55 x = event.clientX + window.scrollX; Apr 30 19:19:55 y = event.clientY + window.scrollY; Apr 30 19:20:22 On mouse down, set state, get start x,y Apr 30 19:20:30 On mouse up, stop movin' Apr 30 19:23:54 tweetme looks awesome Apr 30 19:24:21 roy, put that on webos101... Apr 30 19:25:01 hah - never really assumed the "mouse" functions worked on webos Apr 30 19:25:05 makes sense Apr 30 19:25:47 so you didnt use the mojo.event.dragging() stuff Apr 30 19:27:32 tweetme makes me ashamed of my UI Apr 30 19:28:01 * haeffb_pre needs skillz Apr 30 19:29:41 oooh Apr 30 19:29:42 l Apr 30 19:29:45 *looking at it Apr 30 19:29:49 ubernice. Apr 30 19:30:22 damn Apr 30 19:30:24 no kidding Apr 30 19:30:30 anyone knows if this is paid? Apr 30 19:30:33 (well, duh) Apr 30 19:30:42 tweetme? yeah 1.50 Apr 30 19:30:47 is that the same as tweetmeme for iphone? Apr 30 19:30:56 grrr Apr 30 19:31:01 * millenomi wants paid apps in his catalog Apr 30 19:31:08 :) Apr 30 19:31:11 i have two Apr 30 19:31:21 low downloads but i still get residual checks from palm every month Apr 30 19:31:50 I meant less like that and more like "I want to see them and buy them but I'm not allowed to :'( " Apr 30 19:32:34 so HP bought palm mainly to get webOS? Apr 30 19:33:01 so they say Apr 30 19:33:04 yeah Apr 30 19:33:19 millenomi: why not allowed to? Apr 30 19:33:46 dunno. I have a German Pre (factory-unlocked), Italian SIM. Apr 30 19:33:53 I only see free apps in the Catalog. Apr 30 19:34:01 ah Apr 30 19:34:56 is it worth 1BN? :) Apr 30 19:35:37 it is to HP Apr 30 19:38:08 as it should be Apr 30 19:38:35 It could be the best mobile os out there with a little polish and work Apr 30 19:38:57 it needs gpu accelerated transitions badly Apr 30 19:39:00 like, now. Apr 30 19:39:04 Who was it that was doing tracking that was compatible with google analytics? Apr 30 19:39:20 I'm doing something like that and so is dawm_ Apr 30 19:39:31 Should make it a plugin Apr 30 19:40:30 I want to track people who hit a .php page I created for the palmSpot app. How can I make that page load hit google analytics? Apr 30 19:41:07 what data do you want to get? Apr 30 19:43:32 Most basically, just a page hit on GA. Apr 30 19:43:51 so when the device hits GA it shows up? Apr 30 19:43:59 wait Apr 30 19:44:12 I meant when the device hits the page its in GA Apr 30 19:44:37 yes Apr 30 19:45:09 is there anything returned on the php page? Apr 30 19:45:09 Right now we're just doing an AJAX GET on a single php script. Apr 30 19:45:16 Yes, json response Apr 30 19:48:03 hmm, whats the best way.... Apr 30 19:48:19 Right now I'm using URL re-writing for mine Apr 30 19:51:45 I actually think theres a ssi GA library made for mobile sites.... Apr 30 20:14:46 hey guys - brainstorming question Apr 30 20:15:23 I can think of a bunch of iconic images to represent "paid" - dollar sign, money bags, gold coins, etc Apr 30 20:15:40 but what would be a good representation of "free"? Apr 30 20:16:16 I don't want something like an X over a dollar.. something better... Apr 30 20:23:54 You could double up the icons Apr 30 20:24:05 Like a download icon for free, and a download plus dollar sign for paid Apr 30 20:25:15 that might work Apr 30 20:25:23 Or you could base it off the paid icon, like coins for paid, and the silhouette of coins for free Apr 30 20:25:26 faded out Apr 30 20:26:36 Or there's always sort by price ascending, sort by price descending Apr 30 20:26:44 or just colors Apr 30 20:27:14 well they're going to be icons for buttons so they'll need to be images Apr 30 20:29:06 You could also be abstract, like with a bird flying out of a cage ;) Apr 30 20:30:02 lol :) Apr 30 20:30:27 love the idea but I think people would be confused Apr 30 20:30:27 Or a US flag Apr 30 20:30:37 Or the monopoly guy getting kicked out of jail Apr 30 20:32:04 Ah, you could have a blank price tag, and a price tag with a dollar sign on it Apr 30 20:32:40 Or a little bundle, package icon, and one with a dollar sign Apr 30 20:34:09 hmm I like that. a present and a pricetag Apr 30 20:36:14 now to get to drawing... lol thanks! Apr 30 20:37:43 I was staring at my screen for an hour Apr 30 20:55:04 Good morning Apr 30 20:55:19 Anyone know if the PDK supports reading arbitrary files on the filesystem? Apr 30 20:55:32 Think it does Apr 30 20:55:41 but waiting for mojo file io myself Apr 30 20:56:03 I'm pretty sure you can read *some* files, but I don't know if you can read *all* files Apr 30 20:56:11 I've seen talk of a "sandbox" Apr 30 20:56:16 It definitely supports file I/O within the app directory itself, but I think there's a sandbox of some kind which restricts it from touching other applications Apr 30 20:56:17 right Apr 30 20:56:35 As I understand it, PDK apps are under the same access restrictions as SDK apps Apr 30 20:56:44 OK Apr 30 20:56:51 But they will be coming out with database updates soon to allow DB sharing across multiple apps Apr 30 20:57:09 presumably only if the apps allow it? Apr 30 20:57:12 Otherwise you can implement the file picker or other UI items to gain a reference to other files Apr 30 20:57:28 Right, yeah, when creating a database you would have to specify that it is in the other partition Apr 30 20:57:42 And that it operates under the new API. I forgot what they called it Apr 30 20:57:58 I'm really wondering if app X could, via the PDK, read a sqlite db from app Y Apr 30 20:58:07 So your depot or standard sqllite databases as well as cookies will still be private Apr 30 20:58:13 ok Apr 30 20:58:13 Only if you want it to Apr 30 20:59:22 I don't think so. Each PDK is going to be sandboxed. Apr 30 20:59:35 PDK I mean. It isn't that way right now, but the next update will make it so. Apr 30 20:59:51 cool Apr 30 20:59:58 My fingers don't want to put the word "app" after PDK. :P Apr 30 21:00:21 trying to figure out how to make the beta version of Keyring talk to the catalog version to exchange data Apr 30 21:00:42 I don't want to build in a whole "paranoia" layer if PDK apps could just waltz around it Apr 30 21:01:16 how long does update usually take? Apr 30 21:01:18 Ah, right Apr 30 21:01:23 does it go through the weekend as well? Apr 30 21:01:26 Homebrew stuff will be able to, but in that case the user has taken matters into their own hands Apr 30 21:01:32 That's the exact use-scenario I was thinking would work well with the new DB api Apr 30 21:01:44 yeah, too bad it's not here yet Apr 30 21:01:45 In the meantime, you can specify launch parameters, and you can lookup to see if an app exists Apr 30 21:01:50 So you might be able to do something like ... Apr 30 21:02:10 if (myapp.full) exists, launch (myapp.full) with (pass all data) Apr 30 21:02:26 that's more or less what I'm thinking Apr 30 21:02:55 the trouble is both apps need to take user input as part of the process Apr 30 21:03:01 since this is a security app Apr 30 21:03:19 can't just assume that caller or callee will "agree" to the transfer Apr 30 21:04:49 anyone know the syntax/api for "if (myapp.full) exists"? Apr 30 21:06:31 hi all Apr 30 21:06:42 kridx yes syntax exists Apr 30 21:07:07 * haeffb makes a note not to use WinSCP to transfer MP3 files. Apr 30 21:07:25 Is it a service (and if so, which one), or a Mojo api? Apr 30 21:09:09 hi jenp Apr 30 21:09:19 hi haeffb Apr 30 21:09:49 haeffb were you the one working on the multi stage app? Apr 30 21:10:43 I have in the past... Apr 30 21:12:40 JenP: a few of us are Apr 30 21:12:51 hi Tibfib Apr 30 21:12:55 * haeffb imagines an HP flat-screen tv running webOS with some sort of Wii-like controller. Apr 30 21:12:55 howdy Apr 30 21:13:18 has anyone tried out 1reader? Apr 30 21:13:40 i'm trying to use the alarm service, which seems to work... Apr 30 21:14:18 but the results aren't what i expected...I know shocker... Apr 30 21:17:05 Rick_work: I'd appreciate it if you would tell me the syntax for "if (myapp.full) exists" Apr 30 21:23:55 * warpdesign wonders if HP didn't buy Palm for the patents.. Apr 30 21:33:48 man... tweetme takes a while to load Apr 30 21:34:04 Tibfib: you like it so far? Apr 30 21:34:12 it looks nice Apr 30 21:34:20 it is verrry nice Apr 30 21:34:31 compared to badkitty? Apr 30 21:34:36 don't have badkitty Apr 30 21:34:41 kridx you can always check to see if something is equal to undefined. Apr 30 21:35:00 if (myapp.full === undefined) Apr 30 21:35:22 I need to ask the question differently... Apr 30 21:35:26 it is definitely the best client i've used Apr 30 21:35:40 what do you need to ask kridx??? Apr 30 21:35:43 I want to know how to find out if a given app id is installed on the phone Apr 30 21:35:55 ahhhhhhh Apr 30 21:35:57 "Is com.otisbean.keyring.beta installed"? Apr 30 21:36:04 ahhhhhh Apr 30 21:36:07 hmmm... can you do that with public apis? Apr 30 21:36:15 sure you can. Apr 30 21:36:19 it was implied that you can during dev day Apr 30 21:36:30 heh... idk. I haven't used a ton of the service apis Apr 30 21:36:45 localController.serviceRequest( Apr 30 21:36:45 'palm://com.palm.applicationManager', { Apr 30 21:36:45 method: "listApps", Apr 30 21:36:45 onSuccess: gotApps.bind(this), Apr 30 21:36:45 onFailure: noApps.bind(this) Apr 30 21:36:45 } Apr 30 21:36:46 From applications/photos/loader.js in the SDK sources Apr 30 21:37:03 just found it by dint of `grep -r` Apr 30 21:37:20 man, I don't know how people write code without the sources Apr 30 21:37:26 must suck to be an iPhone dev... Apr 30 21:37:57 of course, I don't know if I'll get anywhere calling that... Apr 30 21:37:58 well considering there are tons of iPhone development books... I'm not sure how big of a problem that is :P Apr 30 21:41:43 so, kridx you want to know if the other app is installed on the phone so you can tell if you want to display a question in the UI to launch it? Apr 30 21:43:55 yup Apr 30 21:44:11 and since listapps is an undocumented method in application manager, unless chuqi or lemketron was able to tell us if it is a FORBIDDEN api, you might not be able to use it in an app cat app. Apr 30 21:44:32 but it might just be undocumented. Apr 30 21:44:59 sigh Apr 30 21:45:04 I love ambiguity Apr 30 21:46:36 oh foo, looks like it's forbidden, or at least it was in october: http://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3618&p=14097&hilit=listapps#p14097 Apr 30 21:46:38 grumble Apr 30 21:46:52 ask in the forums. Apr 30 21:46:57 they change things. Apr 30 21:48:53 Rick_work: Howdy Apr 30 21:50:48 howdy yourself Apr 30 21:51:31 kridx: Can you document that service call on webos101.com? Apr 30 21:56:06 Rick_work: are using ares for most of your development? Apr 30 21:57:13 So, assuming that a spread of HP webos devices is in the offing, how much investment money would it take to create a dev company which could make a killing in the consumer market, providing apps for non-phone webos-consumer devices? Apr 30 21:57:32 and what sort of apps should that company be working on? Apr 30 22:00:07 Hold on, lemme project my mind into the future, and see what's happening Apr 30 22:00:28 yeah, I don't think we can know what sort of apps will be appropriate yet Apr 30 22:00:35 you gotta guess, and get lucky Apr 30 22:04:51 nodnod. Apr 30 22:05:10 Now, if you wanna start that company Apr 30 22:05:16 I'll happily work for it Apr 30 22:05:20 hehehehe Apr 30 22:05:26 the problem is writing the business plan. Apr 30 22:05:32 hp builds and sells hardware, not software... that's what I don't get Apr 30 22:05:35 SOMEONE is going to make a killing. Apr 30 22:05:39 yeah, therein lies the difficulty Apr 30 22:05:52 hp sells a LOT of software Apr 30 22:06:22 Probably the best thing we could do is to analyse the iphone market and android market and look at the top 100 non-game apps in each one and write a business plan around duplicating those. Apr 30 22:06:32 it might not be the biggest part of their business, but their sw biz is bigger than a most sw companies out there Apr 30 22:06:52 I don't think copying them is the point Apr 30 22:07:02 I have being different is the point Apr 30 22:07:04 Agh... Stupid mac isn't showing me my Pre Apr 30 22:07:11 After I disconnected it without ejecting it. Apr 30 22:07:22 Anyone use Komodo Edit 4? i'm trying to find some themes for it Apr 30 22:07:25 Ah, there we go Apr 30 22:07:44 coachz: I'm on Komodo Edit 5 Apr 30 22:07:57 ohh me too 5.2 doh Apr 30 22:08:03 not copying warpdesign but the point I would have is that the top 100 non-game apps on both phones would identify a sheaf of app-types which are consumer marketable. Apr 30 22:08:07 how do you like it? it looks great Apr 30 22:08:21 it's sort of like instant market testing. Apr 30 22:09:59 Roy-Pre101, ? Apr 30 22:13:50 coachz: Seems to work really well Apr 30 22:13:58 I may be doing my future work with Ares, though. Apr 30 22:14:03 i can't find any color schemes though Apr 30 22:14:17 * Tibfib likes notepad++ Apr 30 22:14:30 i need a good linux ide Apr 30 22:14:47 is ares windows only Apr 30 22:15:40 ares is a web IDE Apr 30 22:15:45 wild Apr 30 22:15:51 so if you are offline you can't work ? Apr 30 22:16:00 I'm on FlashDevelop, but that's Windows Apr 30 22:16:01 I think you can work... it just won't save >.< Apr 30 22:16:03 yeah, i dont think so Apr 30 22:16:10 ouch Apr 30 22:16:10 yeah, that Apr 30 22:16:45 Roy-Pre101, do you setup a project in komodo ? Apr 30 22:17:12 coachz: Do you have the plugin for Komodo? Apr 30 22:17:24 what plugin ? Apr 30 22:17:38 there is a webOS development plugin for webOS Apr 30 22:17:39 i just have komodo edit 5.2 in fedora Apr 30 22:17:51 damn, few days ago we discussed international availability here, and now I've lost the link :D Apr 30 22:17:53 by Templarian here in the chat Apr 30 22:18:02 pygi: there are logs Apr 30 22:18:06 * Templarian grins Apr 30 22:18:16 :D Apr 30 22:18:33 I love the plugin... just not komodo :) Apr 30 22:19:00 Yea, I've submitted countless bugs to Activestate wish they were not such a small company. Apr 30 22:19:24 i made a project in komod but don't know how you add your web dir to it Apr 30 22:19:31 I wish it had SVN integration in the free edit. But I guess if it's free I can't gripe too much. Apr 30 22:19:41 i use git Apr 30 22:20:01 Yea, Komodo IDE has every Source Control, so git is there also. Apr 30 22:20:11 i only use free thingys Apr 30 22:22:20 Roy-Pre101, do you make projects in komodo ? Apr 30 22:23:04 coachz: Yes. Apr 30 22:23:10 It's under the that little file looking icon on the add-on. Apr 30 22:23:24 Roy-Pre101: http://webos101.com/Application_Manager Apr 30 22:23:36 Not much there, but it's a start Apr 30 22:23:39 so how does it work, i made a project file, how do i add my web site to it Apr 30 22:23:59 What do you mean add your website? Apr 30 22:24:11 do i just put the kpf file in my web root ? Apr 30 22:24:18 and define my project there ? Apr 30 22:25:02 * Templarian only developed that addon for local development. :-/ (if that is what you mean) Apr 30 22:26:08 If it's a GIT application you would drag delete the contents of "src/" and checkout your content into it. Apr 30 22:26:10 kridx: Very nice Apr 30 22:26:27 Hmm, I need to add the link back to services on that page. Just need to remember how... Apr 30 22:26:40 i just have a website under my /var/www/html Apr 30 22:26:45 so i make the project file there ? Apr 30 22:27:04 ah yes: [[Category:Services]] Apr 30 22:27:07 does komodo pollute the project space or only put that one project file ? Apr 30 22:27:10 Roy-Pre101: there's already a link there Apr 30 22:27:20 at the top Apr 30 22:27:25 Roy-Pre101, you don't have any schemes for komodo do you ? Apr 30 22:27:25 Roy-Pre101: do you understand what coachz is saying? Apr 30 22:27:41 like dreamweaver puts files all over your site dirs Apr 30 22:27:52 i'm just hoping komodo only has the one project file Apr 30 22:27:54 coachz: Nope, I don't use any. Apr 30 22:28:00 k Apr 30 22:28:02 Templarian: Not at all! Apr 30 22:28:25 kridx: There's another sort of thing mediawiki has called categories. As far as I can tell they suck for most things. Apr 30 22:28:30 Roy-Pre101, you said you make projects in komodo Apr 30 22:28:38 do you just make the project file in your web root dir ? Apr 30 22:28:49 http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Komodo_New_Project Apr 30 22:28:51 coachz: Are you talking about webOS projects? Apr 30 22:28:59 Or Web projects? Apr 30 22:29:05 just web projects Apr 30 22:29:21 Oh, thought you were talking about webOS. Apr 30 22:29:24 ah, I don't use it for that so I have no idea. I assume you just do it in your web root dir, probably. Apr 30 22:29:26 i'm sorry Apr 30 22:29:47 thanks Apr 30 22:30:01 any things i should look out for or does it just work great ? Apr 30 22:30:02 coachz: Yea you sort of use 1 project file for each website you make. So you would put it in the /www/ folder. Apr 30 22:30:14 sweet Apr 30 22:31:22 i didn't see a komodo chat room with anyone in it Apr 30 22:31:27 I really would love some expert in MediaWiki to look over the structure of webOS101.com and suggest how it could work better. Apr 30 22:32:08 coachz: I'm in it. It's in irc.mozilla.org #komodo Apr 30 22:32:20 ahh oh mozilla, thanks ! Apr 30 22:32:33 Yea, Komodo is a Gecko based product. Apr 30 22:33:22 ahh, thanks Templarian Apr 30 22:33:30 i knew a templar in charleston, sc Apr 30 22:37:48 did he have the Grail? Apr 30 22:37:59 i think so, he was former fbi Apr 30 22:38:37 Roy-Pre101: omg, don't change links now...I just got my first attribution from the db helper stuff at webos101 Apr 30 22:38:49 :D Apr 30 22:38:55 sugardave: Not changing links. Apr 30 22:38:59 yay Apr 30 22:39:17 Just trying to figure out how we could use templates (better) or use the categories or other methods to organize data better. Apr 30 22:39:34 Be nice to be able to upload code snippets, too Apr 30 22:39:35 I think I might have started trying to categorize stuff in the beginning Apr 30 22:39:38 Not sure how to do that. Apr 30 22:39:48 but, as you can see from the logs, I haven't been there editing in a while Apr 30 22:44:07 Hmm... Apr 30 22:44:18 Looks like mediawiki will block .zip file uploads. Apr 30 22:44:28 .zip files would be very useful for uploading apps. Apr 30 22:46:06 OK, theoretically uploads are allowed now. Apr 30 22:46:15 But I suspect a lot of upload types will be banned. Apr 30 22:49:56 Yeah, right now you can only upload png, gif, jpg and jpeg extensions. It'd be nice to upload .js, .css and .html files. I suspect it's filtering them to prevent people from including them into the output. Apr 30 22:50:32 Any idea what recursive folding does in komodo ? Apr 30 22:51:28 coachz: If you nest your laundry it will fold them all at once. Apr 30 22:51:42 (or maybe not) Apr 30 22:51:51 yeah i don't see it doing that Apr 30 22:53:39 http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1873&Itemid=244#.showBanner anyone know where launchArguements are sent? Apr 30 22:55:21 STRAIGHT TO HELL Apr 30 22:55:54 heh... anyone else? Apr 30 22:56:06 Tibfib: Into your app assistant. Apr 30 22:56:16 yes... but how? Apr 30 22:56:33 oh... Hmm... you mean just for that call there? Apr 30 22:56:34 does it run handleLaunch with the string being launchParams? Apr 30 22:56:50 yes. Apr 30 22:58:10 could I make it run as launchParams.action? could I use an object instead of a string? Apr 30 23:00:25 I was asking this last night but didnt get a good answer, does anyone know where the browserPrefs are set post 1.3.1 (i.e. which db file)? trying to fix the google search url so that it will not redirect to localized search engine. Apr 30 23:00:41 oops. should ask in internals. Apr 30 23:01:15 also, why doesn't this work within the app-assistant http://webos.pastebin.com/4ZSbCgds? Apr 30 23:01:47 reverse the order? Apr 30 23:01:56 trailing comma? Apr 30 23:02:25 Roy-Pre101: it is uncommented when i use it.. Apr 30 23:02:39 Mmm. Apr 30 23:03:56 okay so I'm having this issue with canvas's scale function.. when I do a transform, followed by a scale (even if it's scale(1,1)), the position gets thrown off Apr 30 23:07:23 http://pastebin.com/xfdDSms7 Apr 30 23:07:47 ^^ If I uncomment that scale line, the ball goes to a completely wrong position Apr 30 23:13:25 from what I got at dev day, launchParams is a json object, not a string Apr 30 23:17:44 sweeeeet.. got it to work Apr 30 23:25:09 Tibfib: lemme see. I'm gonna be working on something similar Apr 30 23:28:01 Tman: That is (unfortunately) what happens with webOS. Try doing them in the other order. Apr 30 23:28:18 Tibfib: Document on webos101.com! Apr 30 23:28:18 is there a way to have a timer always start after reboot, or does the user have to launch the app first? Apr 30 23:28:29 Roy-Pre101: tis a workaround :P Apr 30 23:28:44 Have to launch first. You could set a daily alarm that you ignore, I guess. Apr 30 23:29:08 that's what I was thinking... daily alarm at 5:00... or something Apr 30 23:29:15 that gets the refresh going Apr 30 23:29:39 A nice homebrew app might be a startup manager. Apr 30 23:29:52 If i knew how, I definitely would Apr 30 23:30:46 any way to see the chat logs from earlier taday? or do i have to wait till tomorrow Apr 30 23:31:25 i'd like to start experimenting with those dragging snippets roy-pre101 showed me earlier Apr 30 23:31:45 but now i'm home :( Apr 30 23:32:49 ic, gotta wait till tonight Apr 30 23:32:51 o well Apr 30 23:34:54 BigBiff: I'll update the dragging article on webos101.com in a bit (if you remind me) Apr 30 23:35:56 np, thx, i'm gonna try and plug in a few things (i think i remember most - you were using mouseup/down events) Apr 30 23:48:24 * zsoc contemplates updating his ub9.10 box to 10.4 Apr 30 23:53:50 zsoc, don't do it yet :P Apr 30 23:55:49 :> May 01 00:05:09 in case anyone doesn't know, http://ares.palm.com/AresLog/ is wonderful May 01 00:07:24 Tibfib: yes i had just discovered it :D May 01 00:07:29 now if only my service would run on the emulator... May 01 00:30:13 i thought if you dropped a zip into Ares it would unpackage it..is there a trick? May 01 00:31:20 I find I need a java compatible browser May 01 00:31:22 * zsoc ducks May 01 00:38:59 Roy-Pre101: did you finally get your device correctly meta-doctored and logged into a profile? May 01 00:41:19 roy is posting drag snippets on webos101 May 01 00:41:43 ;-) May 01 00:42:09 ok, it's been a looooong time, so it's time for novice question from BigBiff May 01 00:42:30 * zsoc listens intently May 01 00:42:36 maybe I can answer this one May 01 00:42:45 element.observe vs Mojo.Event.listen May 01 00:42:56 * zsoc has never used element.observe :( May 01 00:43:19 I think element.observe is the js way... mojo.event.listen is teh mojo way? May 01 00:43:21 im just noticing the few examples im seeing for drag operations all use element.observe May 01 00:43:27 i think so too May 01 00:43:28 You observe your significant other, they wish you would listen to them May 01 00:43:44 yes, but they talk allll the time May 01 00:43:59 You need to call stopListening... May 01 00:44:04 i get an error May 01 00:44:30 catch(e) = listen.toMe May 01 00:45:50 i found one little post on the difference in those on weboshelp - it appears as though element.observe is the same as mojo.event listen? May 01 00:46:13 but of course thats a pretty old (relatively) post May 01 00:46:30 i guess it still holds true May 01 01:06:46 * Tibfib is tired of worthless problems showing up May 01 01:07:00 Tibfib, youre telling me May 01 01:07:57 was working on my other car today.. hooked up the battery for the first time and well.. wipers apparently are always on, fuel pump is on when the car isnt, and getting no spark, but alot of fuel in my boost pipes.. now i get to hunt down electrical gremlins May 01 01:08:26 and i got called into work for tomorrow.. craptacular weekend already May 01 01:15:38 now one of my AIM accts aint wokring.. wht a day May 01 01:22:28 I now understand how cross-app launch works: http://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1649&Itemid=20#Services-CrossAppLaunch May 01 01:22:39 I'll try and summarize it on pre101 in a few May 01 01:23:07 there's a lot of power available there... May 01 01:27:25 i never knew about that, interesting May 01 01:38:06 You can pass arbitrary json objects between apps that way. I'm going to use it to sync data between the beta and catalog versions of my app (Keyring). May 01 01:48:07 * Tibfib finally has notifications working correctly May 01 01:48:37 shooot... tweetme is by far the best twitter app available May 01 02:20:50 Tibfib: Isn't it nice? May 01 02:21:16 dawm_: Having trouble with Aim, too May 01 02:22:22 All the observe methods are more or less equivalent, just don't mix and match the listen/unlisten pairs. May 01 02:23:03 any graphic artists want to work on an open source project? May 01 02:24:23 Tibfib: If you find one, lemme know May 01 02:25:02 If not, have a look at http://www.openclipart.org/ May 01 02:25:33 The new Keyring icon is based on something from there May 01 02:25:57 kridx: hah! the palm email icon is there May 01 02:26:45 where? May 01 02:26:51 http://www.openclipart.org/detail/29821 May 01 02:27:00 not exact... but extremely similar May 01 02:27:20 It's an airmail envelope. It's gonna look pretty similar May 01 02:27:45 http://www.openclipart.org/search/?query=envelope May 01 02:28:33 ah... true.. just surprised me May 01 02:29:07 lotsa good stuff there, and all free & open May 01 02:59:45 ok May 01 02:59:54 just played with my friends android **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat May 01 02:59:56 2010