**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 08 02:59:59 2010 Sep 08 03:00:29 * Anivrom lost the little paper that had the instructions on how to enable logs Sep 08 03:00:32 on 1.4.1 i was getting a much greater battery life length Sep 08 03:00:38 so nah i am not fine Sep 08 03:01:18 and what network are you on bpadalino Sep 08 03:01:25 sprint Sep 08 03:01:44 in comparison my battery is down by like 50% Sep 08 03:02:00 before i could get a full day now i have to charge it at least once a day Sep 08 03:02:06 how is that fine? lol Sep 08 03:02:13 itching for a new device, but i am not hopeful before the end of the year Sep 08 03:02:15 bpadalino: That really only works if you just want to flush PCM audio to the sound chip without any GUI feedback Sep 08 03:02:39 Amaranth: most audio is like that, isn't it ? Sep 08 03:02:59 bpadalino: You don't want to know how far through the song you are? Sep 08 03:03:24 the CPU can query the DMA chain, can't it ? Sep 08 03:03:46 goodnight everyone Sep 08 03:03:51 bpadalino: Or do crossfading or different volume levels based on different kinds of sounds or headphones vs speaker vs speakerphone, etc Sep 08 03:04:38 Who here is a PDK dev? Sep 08 03:04:45 * Amaranth hides Sep 08 03:04:46 me Sep 08 03:04:52 * CTLAdvance also hides Sep 08 03:04:53 err Sep 08 03:05:05 Nope, you volunteered already Sep 08 03:05:09 ah, mixing .. Sep 08 03:05:12 NewbieProgrammer: See CTLAdvance Sep 08 03:05:14 yeah that's a different deal Sep 08 03:05:14 * Amaranth shoves CTLAdvance back in to the light Sep 08 03:05:42 bpadalino: oh, also bluetooth :) Sep 08 03:06:05 what are you trying to say... I used to specialize in C 5 years ago... Sep 08 03:06:17 openGL/SDL is the new stuff for me Sep 08 03:06:50 kesne what do you need Sep 08 03:06:55 I don't Sep 08 03:06:59 NewbieProgrammer does Sep 08 03:07:00 Anivrom: that little paper called 'the internet'? Sep 08 03:07:06 Yea that one Sep 08 03:07:06 CTLAdvance: Well, the Palm PDK create an installation package confuses me more than helped Sep 08 03:07:13 The tutorial Sep 08 03:07:26 on device? Sep 08 03:07:28 I can't find it anywhere Sep 08 03:07:33 :P I googled it Sep 08 03:07:33 you need to know how to package your app for webOS Sep 08 03:07:36 PDK style? Sep 08 03:07:41 Yes Sep 08 03:07:54 Amaranth: "The problem is homebrew typically leads to piracy and abusing carrier services" does not apply in the webOS homebrew area Sep 08 03:07:56 gotta love the forthrightness of the name Sep 08 03:08:06 ok they have some nice scripts, however everything needs to be installed properly Sep 08 03:08:15 just trying to test or want an actual package Sep 08 03:08:24 Test at the moment Sep 08 03:08:28 because if youe in visual studio you can directly deploy to device Sep 08 03:08:39 Um, using xcode... Sep 08 03:08:43 might be same with eclipse Sep 08 03:08:46 bah Sep 08 03:08:47 rwhitby: Well, there is almost no protection against piracy anyway but people do things like mobile hotspot on sprint Sep 08 03:09:10 Amaranth: homebrew is not an enabler nor promoter of any of that Sep 08 03:09:22 so there are a few things you need Sep 08 03:09:25 one second Sep 08 03:09:29 rwhitby: I know but they make the tools available Sep 08 03:09:51 rwhitby: Look at the Wii homebrew scene, for example Sep 08 03:09:56 Amaranth: that is not the case - you can do all that with the official Palm SDK, and none of that is in homebrew package feeds Sep 08 03:10:28 Newb - Have you seen the tiltodemo Sep 08 03:10:38 it has 2 nice scripts for building the apps Sep 08 03:10:44 rwhitby: Not saying it's not possible without the homebrew scene, the tools for homebrew just make things easier for them Sep 08 03:10:49 its a good example for packaging Sep 08 03:11:10 Not yet, can you point me to it Sep 08 03:11:16 Amaranth: but your comment implied there is a cause and effect Sep 08 03:11:23 is xcode unix or are you on windows Sep 08 03:11:30 Amaranth: "The problem is homebrew typically leads to piracy and abusing carrier services" is what you said Sep 08 03:11:37 I'm on OS X Sep 08 03:11:46 rwhitby: Well, typically the people doing bad stuff show up after the homebrew folks make it easy for them Sep 08 03:11:46 dear palm: stop crashing my phone with random bugs Sep 08 03:12:37 Amaranth: which is different from saying "Pirates and Carrier TOS abusers are going to do what they do, irrespective of whether legitimate homebrew tools exist or not" Sep 08 03:14:50 Amaranth: if homebrew installers like Preware were enabling holes in Palm's security, or enabling things to be installed that cannot be installed by anyone who downloads the official Palm SDK and uses the official palm-install tool, then one might be able to draw a stronger cause-effect relationship Sep 08 03:15:06 ok disregard then Sep 08 03:15:28 the windows bat files wont work directly, you would need to convert them Sep 08 03:15:43 rwhitby: Right, it's a weaker argument on webOS because anyone can download the SDK and install an ipk Sep 08 03:15:59 Darn Sep 08 03:16:08 rwhitby: Although I know if I was using mobile hotspot on sprint I'd like a feed I could add to preware to get automatic updates Sep 08 03:16:29 Amaranth: if you were saying "Pirates and Carrier abusers typically make use of legitimate homebrew tools to do their nefarious works, even though they can do the same thing with official Palm tools", I would agree. Sep 08 03:16:51 rwhitby: In the webOS case that's basically what I'm saying Sep 08 03:16:58 Amaranth - We could just implement our apps server side and implement activision esq pirate protection Sep 08 03:17:05 rwhitby: Although in the general smartphone world my original statement is more valid Sep 08 03:17:07 always connected Sep 08 03:17:38 Amaranth: indeed, and it is the difference which WebOS Internals has fought hard to make the webOS homebrew community different. Sep 08 03:18:06 ROMz and Warez does not get legitimacy in the webOS homebrew community. Sep 08 03:18:08 CTLAdvance: Or just heavily obfuscate your call to the license server in a PDK app Sep 08 03:19:20 not sure how well they would be able to disassemble the compiled c in a pdk app Sep 08 03:19:30 Amaranth: but I will strongly argue against a statement that webOS homebrew *leads* to piracy and carrier TOS abuse. Sep 08 03:19:32 so thats a good point Sep 08 03:19:41 warez is nothign but runnaround links and viruses now Sep 08 03:19:48 but they would still need to register to get access to the code Sep 08 03:19:59 with always on protection etc etc Sep 08 03:20:13 anivrom: unless your determined... Sep 08 03:20:26 then its plentiful Sep 08 03:20:41 Gu1l7y_work: torrentz get you want you want in alot less time Sep 08 03:20:42 rwhitby - you could offer an option for devs to block their apps from being side loaded or remopved from the device Sep 08 03:20:52 CTLAdvance: If you make a simple function call I can patch it out of your PDK app incredibly easily Sep 08 03:21:02 oh Sep 08 03:21:16 anivrom: yup yup. im not endorsing that though. Sep 08 03:21:42 CTLAdvance: since it can be done with official Palm SDK and official Palm tools, how would we (homebrew) do that? Sep 08 03:21:53 of course not but just saying, why waste your time on warez sites that display porn site ads and give you viruses when you do find the software that "looks legit" Sep 08 03:22:19 Anivrom: you protect yourself. Sep 08 03:22:31 that community used to be legit back when they were "wares" and not warez Sep 08 03:23:01 but its all in vain cause at the end of the rainbow its a virus lol Sep 08 03:23:17 rwhitby it could be argued that palm implements more security on their part for devs Sep 08 03:23:32 they overly embrace openness which hurts closed source devs Sep 08 03:23:48 or people who dont want to be open unless they are asked Sep 08 03:24:00 palm needs to implement Sep 08 03:24:08 * Sep 08 03:24:24 I agree that sdk shouldnt mean open source Sep 08 03:24:25 how does Palm hurt closed source devs? Sep 08 03:24:36 SDK does not mean open source Sep 08 03:24:50 sdk means being able to read the source Sep 08 03:24:59 even though someone can see your JS code, they still don't have the legal right to use it unless you give them that right Sep 08 03:25:03 Therefore a shady individual can look at your source and make changes Sep 08 03:25:03 CTLAdvance: minify your javascript and it'd be easier to rewrite the app from scratch then figure out how yours works Sep 08 03:25:24 why is making change to source bad? Sep 08 03:25:26 we're not talking about ppl that care about legalities Sep 08 03:25:26 Thats not what I meant, and maybe there is no feasable way to prevent people from adequately removing and or sideloading your software Sep 08 03:25:33 (the source that is on your personal device that you own) Sep 08 03:25:43 Amaranth - Yeah we minify and obfuscate Sep 08 03:25:48 for most Sep 08 03:26:01 at keast you cant get a direct copy Sep 08 03:26:03 CTLAdvance: I guess I could switch to windows Sep 08 03:26:08 Wasting time fighting piracy is losing more money than the piracy itself IMO Sep 08 03:26:12 Then no one is going to steal your code, all they can see if calls to mojo Sep 08 03:26:19 s/if/is/ Sep 08 03:26:37 NewbieProgrammer No need to do that, you should be able to do the same in unix Sep 08 03:26:46 de-obfuscation is not a difficult task Sep 08 03:26:54 anyone have the link to tilto demo Sep 08 03:27:06 * kesne considered adding deviceID checking in my app, and adding a hell of a lot of code-checking tools to ensure that nobody touched anything Sep 08 03:27:11 If you do something tricky with mojo in one spot they can probably figure that out but I wouldn't really say that's bad Sep 08 03:27:13 Then I realized my software is free Sep 08 03:27:48 they could compromise the code checking tools rather easily Sep 08 03:28:28 egaudet - i really spend 30 seconds doing something to cover our ass if we need to go to court, though this is mainly for our corp apps. I take the same approach to webOS Sep 08 03:29:15 anyways - ill never win this debate here so im backing out of it. Regardless, I like the new preware whether you can sideload or not Sep 08 03:29:33 its not like im losing tons of money anyways Sep 08 03:29:41 if I really care ill implement server side Sep 08 03:29:49 only real way to prevent anything Sep 08 03:29:59 indeed Sep 08 03:30:02 CTLAdvance: use the new "IsDeviceLicensed" call in the PDK Sep 08 03:30:08 it appeared in 1.4.5 I believe Sep 08 03:30:09 I suspect that in an alternate universe where piracy was impossible, revenue wouldn't change as much as some think Sep 08 03:30:09 oh Sep 08 03:30:18 But then that brings the whole "internet connection" debate into the picture Sep 08 03:30:24 I havent had time to read through everything Sep 08 03:30:28 thats interesting Sep 08 03:30:37 thanks rwhitby Sep 08 03:31:35 of course the hard code pirates will work out how to NOP the call to that in your code, and distribute the "cracked" version, and they will be more likely to distribute your app cause they get "cred" for having cracked your "l33t" encryption scheme. Sep 08 03:33:03 the more you try and prevent your app being stolen, then more likely it is to become a target due to the social hierarchy in the areas that pirates inhabit being determined by how many "hard" apps they have cracked Sep 08 03:33:51 see, device designers should have a piece of sylicon that can detect the apps and nuke the device, something that cant be programmed or removed/patched etc Sep 08 03:34:02 then a dev could opt in to the device nuke option Sep 08 03:34:07 I'm working on my first program, but I'm making (I'm sure, a beginer's) mistake. the source is online at http://www.adamsconc.com/wostack . The issue I'm having is that I add a list to my scene, but the list never displays Sep 08 03:34:24 newbieprogrammer - still looking for a link Sep 08 03:34:27 whats your email Sep 08 03:34:31 ill zip it and send it Sep 08 03:35:01 thsfroshvp08@gmail.com Sep 08 03:35:15 * halfhalo fires up the spam engine Sep 08 03:35:16 Thanks Sep 08 03:35:32 Whoops should've Pmed Sep 08 03:35:40 * CTLAdvance kicks halfhalo because his spamz belong to me Sep 08 03:35:47 guess that's a nogo? Sep 08 03:36:00 lol Sep 08 03:36:03 oh man Sep 08 03:36:09 gimli just said "And my axe!" Sep 08 03:37:03 incorrect_meme_user Sep 08 03:37:47 Anybody here notice that WebOS World has an addition SS? Sep 08 03:38:11 did I get spam-blocked because I had a url in my first post? Sep 08 03:38:33 err... s/post/line|? Sep 08 03:39:05 rwhitby - I agree there really isnt a way around it. The thing is you usually dont have many users pirating anyways. Unless your activision then there really no real reason to fight tooooo hard. Sep 08 03:42:04 I'm working on my first program, but when I add a list to my scene, the list never displays Sep 08 03:42:22 the list has items from the get-go Sep 08 03:44:56 Newbie - sent the file Sep 08 03:46:59 so I wonder if Palm can launch a Palm Chicklet, to compete with the new nano Sep 08 03:48:02 s/Palm/HP/g Sep 08 03:51:18 holy crap, i hadn't seen the new nanos Sep 08 03:51:21 that's hot shit Sep 08 03:54:04 yeah was actually looking myself Sep 08 03:54:13 just a screen and a clip really Sep 08 03:54:23 1.5" screen Sep 08 03:54:25 and docking port and headphone jack of course Sep 08 03:54:32 well yes yes :) Sep 08 03:54:41 theres 3 buttons Sep 08 03:54:48 2 volume one on/sleep Sep 08 03:55:16 it's definitely neat looking, but i wouldn't get one Sep 08 03:55:24 i'd rather have all of my stuff on one device Sep 08 03:55:59 the only thing I was thinking was for going for a run.... but cant justify 150 for something ill only put 30 - 60 minutes of music on Sep 08 03:56:03 same Sep 08 03:56:22 which I have my pre... do they make an arm band for the pre Sep 08 03:56:45 duct tape Sep 08 03:57:00 I've got a problem.... Sep 08 03:57:36 maik - you really want me to duct tape this to my arm? Ouch Sep 08 03:57:37 ;) Sep 08 03:57:45 man up Sep 08 03:57:49 lol Sep 08 03:58:08 gu1l337h4x0rname_work: go for it Sep 08 03:58:41 ...I need to remove "Iphone User Agent Spoof" Patch but I have no access to a computer. (I'm on my work computer and have no admin rights...) Sep 08 03:59:14 did you install/enable the ssh server? Sep 08 03:59:18 on your phone Sep 08 03:59:22 no Sep 08 03:59:27 oh wait, don't you have preware installed? Sep 08 03:59:30 Yep Sep 08 03:59:43 so it should be under patches (if that's how you installed it to begin with) Sep 08 03:59:47 It wasn't installed through Preware though... Sep 08 03:59:51 Doesn't show up. Sep 08 03:59:58 oh, how did you install it? Sep 08 04:00:01 WOSQI is what I used... Sep 08 04:00:10 lol and now have no access to it.... Sep 08 04:00:22 Wait! Sep 08 04:00:50 lol, If I download the ipk off P|C I will re-install it with Preware. Sep 08 04:00:59 Then Preware will recognize it right? Sep 08 04:01:07 Then I can remove it...? Sep 08 04:01:09 right? Sep 08 04:01:13 sounds like good logic Sep 08 04:01:21 ;) Sep 08 04:01:28 if that patch is in preware, just trying installing it from preware on your phone Sep 08 04:02:10 I don't think its in any of my subscribed feeds cause I never added any... Sep 08 04:02:32 Ima' double-check though. Sep 08 04:03:24 Yea, can't find it.. Sep 08 04:04:05 is it causing problems? Sep 08 04:04:49 Yup. Offhand it breaks functions in BFG Maps, Facebook App, and a lot of web sites I use. Including Facebook. Sep 08 04:05:20 hah Sep 08 04:05:26 i mean awe Sep 08 04:05:37 awe = aaw? Sep 08 04:06:18 nvm Sep 08 04:06:19 awwww Sep 08 04:06:36 lol idkaaayyy Sep 08 04:07:12 Does preware keep record of unrecognized ipk installs to uninstall later? Sep 08 04:07:33 ya, i've got no suggestions Sep 08 04:07:34 not sure Sep 08 04:07:45 i'm sure it does if it tries to be responsible for installing them Sep 08 04:07:48 they're good at what they do Sep 08 04:07:55 Lets hope so.... Sep 08 04:08:30 hopefully it will detect that it's already applied and a) not try to apply it again, arbitrarily and b) prompt you to uninstall it Sep 08 04:08:41 since we're hoping and all Sep 08 04:10:18 I'm working on my first program, but when I add a list to my scene, the list never displays. Sep 08 04:11:01 you're making sure the scene is being pushed? Sep 08 04:12:10 yes sir Sep 08 04:12:22 would you like to see the source? Sep 08 04:12:28 pastebin your html and instantiation code Sep 08 04:12:30 yes plz :) Sep 08 04:12:44 http://www.adamsconc.com/wostack/ Sep 08 04:12:54 that's the full source with index.html renamed Sep 08 04:13:03 http://webos.pastebin.org/ Sep 08 04:13:04 oh, ok Sep 08 04:13:37 I figured it was probably easier to post the whole source publicly (was going to anyway) than to use pastebin Sep 08 04:14:16 sort of, except when i click on index.html.xxx it shows me Stack Overflow, which i'm hoping is a javascript error Sep 08 04:14:23 but more importatnly, i can't view the source without trying to download the file Sep 08 04:14:39 ok, what files should I pastebin? Sep 08 04:14:54 nevermind :) Sep 08 04:14:58 * maik looks Sep 08 04:15:26 sorry, I will try to find a way to make apache push everything to MIME:txt Sep 08 04:15:27 there really shouldn't be anything in index.html except the default stuff Sep 08 04:15:33 ok Sep 08 04:18:01 i'm assuming everything was working until you tried that list though? Sep 08 04:18:24 woo Sep 08 04:18:28 Full of win Sep 08 04:18:29 there's nothing else to it Sep 08 04:18:47 the only other thing is the header, and that still works Sep 08 04:19:15 hmm, i'm not a master at javascript, but your list model.items has an element followed by a comma and no additional element Sep 08 04:19:31 items: [{'title':'test'},], Sep 08 04:19:44 you're using the emulator for testing? Sep 08 04:20:22 just fixed it, and it's still not working Sep 08 04:20:23 yessir Sep 08 04:21:05 ssh -p5522 root@localhost Sep 08 04:21:07 no password Sep 08 04:21:26 $ log com.domain.appid Sep 08 04:21:41 ? Sep 08 04:22:00 oh, nm Sep 08 04:22:03 that runs a tail -f on /var/log/messages i think and is very useful for debugging your app while running on the emulator Sep 08 04:22:14 so you can see where syntax errors are, etc. Sep 08 04:23:05 I've been using palm-log Sep 08 04:23:21 ah, same deal i guess Sep 08 04:23:23 LumberJack Sep 08 04:23:23 i'm old school :) Sep 08 04:23:49 I'm digin the tail -f, don't get me wrong, I just didn't realize it was possible Sep 08 04:23:53 what editor are you using? Sep 08 04:23:57 vim Sep 08 04:24:10 goodness Sep 08 04:24:23 ? Sep 08 04:24:23 vim is so good :( Sep 08 04:24:37 it is, but hard to keep track of all of the files Sep 08 04:24:37 LumberJack app is very useful for debugging Sep 08 04:24:47 zsoc, why you :( Sep 08 04:24:56 bbiaf Sep 08 04:25:05 I normally write python, and have my environment setup for it, plus I'm used to it from 40 hrs/week Sep 08 04:25:16 vim + screen is a dream come true Sep 08 04:25:30 hi guys... long time no chat. Sep 08 04:27:11 howdy Sep 08 04:27:18 Herrow Sep 08 04:27:29 it actually looks like I'm getting no scene at all Sep 08 04:32:55 ok, so my issue has changed: the scene's activate method is being called, but the html is not showing Sep 08 04:55:54 daddysmurf: can you verify your assistant is being called? just throw in a Mojo.Log.error('foo'); somewhere and make sure it shows up under the logging facility you're using Sep 08 05:05:09 maik: yes, it is being called Sep 08 05:06:03 your web server is reporting 500, btw Sep 08 05:06:57 so i'm not really sure what the deal is. it's good that your scene is being pushed and apparently processed Sep 08 05:07:34 maik: yea, trying to put the whole thing in a browsable bzr repo Sep 08 05:08:07 maik: I got the html functional, put the list in a scroller, and made a checkbox and some text show, but the list is not showing at all Sep 08 05:08:22 oh goodness, another revision control system i've never heard of Sep 08 05:08:25 maik: gonna give up on it for the night and pick it back up tomo after I'm not mad at it Sep 08 05:08:37 heh, sounds good Sep 08 05:08:43 you gonna stick around in here? Sep 08 05:08:46 maik: it's a python vcs that integrates very nicely with svn Sep 08 05:08:51 cool Sep 08 05:09:01 * halfhalo cires due to node Sep 08 05:09:02 maik: soso, gonna be in and out, prol sleep soon and be back at it after work tomo Sep 08 05:09:17 see you then maybe Sep 08 05:09:27 ty maik Sep 08 05:14:11 ugh Sep 08 05:20:07 kesne: you're a bot! Sep 08 05:20:13 Heh Sep 08 05:26:32 howdy Sep 08 05:44:05 I have 7 items left on my to-do list Sep 08 05:44:08 And 1 day to do it Sep 08 05:44:18 Anybody want $20? Sep 08 05:45:35 yup! Sep 08 05:45:40 Me Me! Sep 08 05:56:19 7 wallets down 13 more to go Sep 08 06:17:00 Gu1l7y_work: Really? Sep 08 06:17:06 Gu1l7y_work: You have to work Sep 08 06:17:11 I have something that needs fixing Sep 08 06:17:27 Anybody with solid JS know-how should be able to do it in 30 mins Sep 08 06:32:15 kesne: How do you know wether i have to work or not? Sep 08 06:32:16 lol Sep 08 06:36:16 Good morning people Sep 08 06:36:45 Mornin Sep 08 06:37:15 Tis' my afternoon late-nite but alas Sep 08 06:45:36 good morning Sep 08 06:45:42 late night for me Sep 08 07:02:08 can one access the protoype class functions from mojo? Sep 08 09:45:17 good morning Sep 08 09:47:20 warpdesign_ morning Sep 08 10:11:51 ah.. dual-core cpus finally coming to phones. Sep 08 10:11:58 http://www.conceivablytech.com/2608/products/samsung-opens-the-door-to-1080p-on-smartphones/ (from /.) Sep 08 10:20:30 what about a dual core pre ? :) Sep 08 10:20:55 Get two Pre's and cluster them? I don't know.. Sep 08 10:21:22 Pre Grid would be totally awesome and useless Sep 08 10:24:15 Btw, does Pre have capability to record call directly via software? Sep 08 10:24:52 That's something what I'd want from a phone. Sep 08 10:28:40 teemu the ned hd is also 2 core 1.5 ghz Sep 08 10:29:37 Ned HD? A phone? Sep 08 10:29:43 *new hd Sep 08 10:29:46 HTC HD Sep 08 10:30:29 hmm. HTC HD2? Sep 08 10:30:37 no :D that is old Sep 08 10:30:41 HD3? Sep 08 10:30:43 Win7 Sep 08 10:30:46 yer Sep 08 10:31:01 * teemu drools for the hw Sep 08 10:32:03 looks like htc android phone is also comming with that cpu Sep 08 10:33:53 I don't really mind having older HW if it has a great OS, such as webos. Sep 08 10:34:43 And most importantly I want the OS to get updates all the time. Not like with Samsung where you're lucky to get even one update after release. Sep 08 10:59:09 hi,anyone here? Sep 08 10:59:46 Hello Sep 08 11:35:23 anyone knows if there is good comparision between android and webos out there? Sep 08 11:54:00 morning all Sep 08 13:17:15 Can't understand one thing. WebOS (and Pre) are awesome even in emulator env and yet, hardly anyone here has heard about it. Yea I know I'm a bit late on this issue but still :) Sep 08 13:21:12 teemu, without communication how do you think anyone will here about it ? Especially seeing the huge buzz done by google & apple ? Sep 08 13:21:15 this isn't surprising Sep 08 13:22:02 Well I work at university it-department and even they have not heard of it. Well ok, if there's no articles about it in tech sites I don't wonder. Sep 08 13:22:51 I've heard about Pre when it first came out, waiting for it to become available to me but no :( Sep 08 13:26:06 i got my on day 1! i was at the store 20min before opening... lol that was the first time i wanted a phone so bad... Sep 08 13:29:17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk3qkQROb_k&feature=player_embedded#at=40 omg Sep 08 13:29:50 teemu, I'm working in the second largest phone provider here in France, web section Sep 08 13:30:04 no one has it, people barely know it Sep 08 13:30:15 and there's no support going for it Sep 08 13:31:18 So only fans outside of US know about it Sep 08 13:37:03 hope hp can change that teemu Sep 08 13:37:08 poor marketing Sep 08 13:37:14 poor product design Sep 08 13:37:17 Me too. Sep 08 13:37:35 What's wrong with the design? Bad quality at first from what I've heard. Sep 08 13:37:56 well the design works fine for me but the masses didn't find it attractivd Sep 08 13:38:16 Deihmos i don't think you are right Sep 08 13:38:27 so many people told me they don't like the shape etc Sep 08 13:38:31 people here like the phone, they just don't know it exists Sep 08 13:38:44 my wife says the same thing. The phone is just not attractive Sep 08 13:38:44 because they can not buy it Sep 08 13:38:49 I agree with hotdp Sep 08 13:39:00 because your wife says so it should not be true for the whole world ;) Sep 08 13:39:20 wife and many others. ven the sprint store reps said no one buys it anymore Sep 08 13:39:40 many people complain about the size. they see the tiny keyboard and get turned off. the size of the screen etc Sep 08 13:39:55 I think every device that breaks new ground has a learning curve. Now having HW issues doesn't make things any easier. Sep 08 13:40:08 Deihmos maybe Danes are not as picky as your friends and wife? Sep 08 13:40:47 i just know i got good respons on the design here. But people don't wonna buy a phone that is not supported in the country Sep 08 13:41:10 At the time Pre's screen was normal, no? These days they're becoming a bit too big imho Sep 08 13:41:10 well if the design was more conventional I am sure the phone would have done much better. Also the build quality is really bad. I am actually heading to the sprint store today for a replacement because the keypad stopped working Sep 08 13:41:24 yer Sep 08 13:42:06 my wife had hers replaced 3 times already since April Sep 08 13:42:35 What was wrong with the ones returned? Sep 08 13:42:42 :q Sep 08 13:43:35 display problems and keyboard problems Sep 08 13:44:14 the one i am returning now has keyboard stopped working. Had it since October Sep 08 13:44:33 That's Pre, not Pre Plus? Sep 08 13:44:45 Pre Sep 08 13:45:08 I just hope I get a decent refurbished phone Sep 08 13:45:25 Didn't Pre Plus have some HW fixes applied to it? Sep 08 13:45:27 Sprint said the Pre is the most returned phone they ever had Sep 08 13:45:38 Right. That's sad to hear. Sep 08 13:45:42 I never used a Plus Sep 08 13:45:59 I went to Best Buy and the guy said the same thing Sep 08 13:47:20 Why did this talk turn into the build quility? Sep 08 13:47:27 I think it is bad and have always been Sep 08 13:47:42 We were talking about reasons why people doesn't know about Pre Sep 08 13:47:44 but that has nothing to do with the look or avibility of the phone Sep 08 13:48:21 I wouldn't actually mind having some HW issues. I just want one :) Sep 08 13:48:55 don't you have one? Sep 08 13:49:26 I wouldn't buy a Palm pre now. I am sure something new is just around the corner Sep 08 13:49:41 Nope. I came on this chan yesterday asking where to get one. Sep 08 13:50:01 where are you from ? Sep 08 13:50:04 ebay has them unlocked. Should be cheap Sep 08 13:50:10 Finland. Sep 08 13:50:15 doesn't Palm sell them unlocked? Sep 08 13:50:18