**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 11 02:59:56 2011 Aug 11 03:00:21 on the software side, the market has decided the update button shouldn't work Aug 11 03:00:48 the multitasking functionality is lame (especially after using a touchpad) Aug 11 03:01:13 gmail app has this fun bug where it decides a message will be unread in the inbox but not show up in the inbox Aug 11 03:01:17 looks like a race condition to me Aug 11 03:01:25 haeffb: I call it the MetaGeneticist method Aug 11 03:02:14 rwhitby: I like it. Will add to the repertoire. Aug 11 03:02:44 * rwhitby bbl Aug 11 03:02:53 haeffb: my general reaction to android and nexus s, philosophy aside, is that nothing is really wrong with it, it just happens to have a _lot_ of very small iritiations that add up Aug 11 03:03:01 DraX: Yeah, I hate to have to give up cards on my phone. But HP and Sprint don't appear to be on speaking terms. Aug 11 03:03:23 in some ways i'm in a similar boat since i'm on tmob Aug 11 03:03:45 We should move to europe. Aug 11 03:04:14 we have a lot of android apps at work though, so i'm not totally sure i could actually switch to another platform anyway Aug 11 03:04:17 Where the roads are paved with gold and phones aren't tied to carriers. Aug 11 03:04:29 not having shuttle schedules easily would be annoying Aug 11 03:04:39 and in-building maps Aug 11 03:05:02 ha. you could always ask for directions... :) Aug 11 03:05:29 crazy idea Aug 11 03:05:37 I'm a radical, I know. Aug 11 03:06:10 AlwaysBlameOil: I want to buy a new HP webOS phone. I'm a Sprint customer. Please help!!! Aug 11 03:09:15 "Help, help, I'm being oppressed!"? Aug 11 03:20:17 more like depressed. Aug 11 03:23:40 Sheet Aug 11 03:24:54 more like just plain ignored Aug 11 03:32:46 AlwaysBlameOil: :( Aug 11 03:32:57 oil: NEVER FORGET Aug 11 03:33:08 what's the question? Aug 11 03:33:17 never forget adora hitting the wrong button on wirc submission? :) Aug 11 03:36:18 Sooooooooo funny Aug 11 03:36:54 * rwhitby chuckled Aug 11 03:40:02 that's the type of thing that doesn't seem to happen in real life. only in movies Aug 11 03:46:26 Hrm, cleaning back of house or prodding Pre+. Tough choice. Aug 11 03:47:07 sounds pretty easy to mee Aug 11 03:47:30 cleaning is a+++ Aug 11 03:47:59 I only have the one day off. Cleaning is also effort+++ Aug 11 03:48:10 hey all Aug 11 03:48:12 phone it is! Aug 11 03:48:26 dawm/someone who does pdk work: you around? Aug 11 03:50:47 * DougReeder waves hello Aug 11 03:51:42 hey DougReeder Aug 11 03:51:55 Are you here every night? Aug 11 03:51:56 Hendikins: got something for you to try Aug 11 03:52:09 DougReeder: usually Aug 11 03:53:09 rwhitby: Sure. Aug 11 03:53:45 Hendikins: you still got the reverted palm-build-info meta-doctor? Aug 11 03:53:54 the one with webos version 1.4.5 for the first line? Aug 11 03:54:12 Yes. It was the last one I used and I haven't done a respin since then. Aug 11 03:54:33 flash a device with it, then install Preware and Impostah and the Device Profile service override patch Aug 11 03:54:50 don't log into a profile before installing Preware Aug 11 03:54:57 use #*DEVMODE# to bypass Aug 11 03:55:07 Well that won't be a problem, it can't log in to any profiles. Aug 11 03:55:18 I mean don't even attempt. Aug 11 03:55:27 we want the profile to still be 1.4.5, not 9.9.9 Aug 11 03:56:04 * Hendikins wakes up laptop, gets doctoring Aug 11 04:00:48 When I get my rostered 5 days off next week I'll hunt down a Hardly Normal with a TouchPad demo unit. The only question is which state I'll be looking in. Aug 11 04:14:50 what do i do if an app won't remove Aug 11 04:14:54 on the emulator Aug 11 04:15:09 palm-install -r doesn't work? Aug 11 04:15:11 i remove it, but then i reboot, and it's there. it's like its stuck Aug 11 04:15:24 remove the source via novaterm? Aug 11 04:15:33 if you can novaterm into the emu Aug 11 04:16:06 i was actually kind of wondering if anyone had experience with this specific issue Aug 11 04:19:46 I've never had an app I couldn't uninstall using the Launcher. Under some builds, account templates, DB8 permissions, etc. aren't removed, and I had to use find and rm. Aug 11 04:20:31 grah, my scheming to get cheaper VZW service isn't terribly successful, only works on voice plans :-/ Aug 11 04:20:58 DougReeder: do you have pdk experience? Aug 11 04:21:10 Sorry, no PDK experience. Aug 11 04:21:22 ok, that's fine. thx :) Aug 11 04:22:01 rwhitby: Of course, with 1.4.5 for the first line, I can't even see the device profile service override in Preware or access most of Impostah's functions... Aug 11 04:22:07 Hey, is the 3.0.2 Release "Developer Guide" available as a download? I can't seem to find any page for it. Aug 11 04:22:16 Since Preware believes the device is on 1.4.5 Aug 11 04:22:31 "Developer Guide"? Aug 11 04:23:03 All the content at https://developer.palm.com/content/api/dev-guide.html in a downloadable form. Aug 11 04:23:17 I need that! Aug 11 04:23:21 sugardave: get on it Aug 11 04:27:29 rm -rf worked Aug 11 04:27:34 but Aug 11 04:27:42 i want to know why Aug 11 04:37:54 * PatrickC goes back to c++ Aug 11 04:47:02 Hendikins: ah, good point. Aug 11 04:47:13 Hendikins: ok, manually change the first line back to 2.1.0 Aug 11 04:47:29 Already done. Aug 11 04:47:57 and you have the device profile override patch in place? Aug 11 04:48:17 Just waiting for the Luna restart to complete. Aug 11 04:48:42 hi Aug 11 04:51:31 hey uncola Aug 11 04:52:10 * PatrickC goes thru palm's code and fixes it Aug 11 04:54:18 so the price cut is permanent Aug 11 04:54:21 that's smart on hps part Aug 11 04:54:26 I think they'll definitely sell more Aug 11 05:00:03 USB 3.0 may provide up to 100 watts - good news for tablets like the TP: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2011/08/usb-ports-that-power-laptops-monitors-soon-to-be-a-reality.ars Aug 11 05:01:11 That's just gross. Aug 11 05:01:17 ugh.. why won't this compile.. :/ Aug 11 05:01:41 I can't imagine the crosstalk or power noise that'd be introduced by 100W over a little cable Aug 11 05:02:47 It's not clear you could get 100W and EDR at the same time, but do you need them at the same time? Aug 11 05:04:50 I suppose with a big hard drive you do. Aug 11 05:05:26 Soylent green is people! Aug 11 05:05:32 BTW, does the TP actually charge when connected via USB? It carps about not getting enough power. Aug 11 05:06:00 DougReeder: Depends on the cable you're using, and the USB it's plugged into Aug 11 05:06:14 it's probably trying to pull 750mA or somesuch, apple-style Aug 11 05:06:28 shouldnt matter what port or cable Aug 11 05:06:32 if the screen is off Aug 11 05:06:34 it will charge Aug 11 05:06:42 if screen is not, it wil just maintain or even drain Aug 11 05:07:01 http://www.tuaw.com/2010/08/03/mintyboost-unlocks-the-secret-of-apples-chargers/ Aug 11 05:07:04 I'd imagine it works like that Aug 11 05:07:57 er, http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/icharge.html Aug 11 05:08:32 1 amp charge over USB Aug 11 05:09:00 thank god for chrome debugging Aug 11 05:09:04 that really isnt the orig question Aug 11 05:09:26 the orig question was bout charging from a computer usb port i would image Aug 11 05:09:53 True Aug 11 05:10:14 Depends if anything else is drawing on the current for the hub Aug 11 05:10:26 ie, corded optical mouse Aug 11 05:10:40 2.5" hard drive, whatnot Aug 11 05:12:00 So, looks like Apple devices depend on the USB port doing something nonstandard and very specific. Aug 11 05:12:15 DougReeder: To be able to pull ~1A Aug 11 05:12:19 Yes. Aug 11 05:12:48 I'd imagine the Touchpad might work in a similar fashion Aug 11 05:13:11 that or just turn the screen down while it's plugged in? ;) Aug 11 05:15:50 * PatrickC yawns Aug 11 05:15:52 night all Aug 11 05:15:59 PatrickC: why on earth are you trying to write c++? Aug 11 05:16:18 DraX: I've been told its better then Java Aug 11 05:16:35 it is, but it should not be anyones first language Aug 11 05:16:56 and I've also been told that learning an Object oriented language would be beneficial to javascript for me Aug 11 05:17:03 what would you suggest? Aug 11 05:17:12 python Aug 11 05:17:28 OO in C++ is rather different than OO in JavaScript. Aug 11 05:17:32 what need do I have of python? Aug 11 05:17:44 indeed, and there are a lot of different c++'s including ones that aren't very OO-like Aug 11 05:18:00 I'm doing an SDL tutorial atm Aug 11 05:18:45 I recommend learning languages for specific platforms you want to program for. After you've learned several, you can start to generalize. Aug 11 05:18:56 c++ just has way too many bullets to shoot yourself in the foot with Aug 11 05:18:57 ... but not everybody learns the same way. Aug 11 05:19:10 DougReeder: I want to do game dev on webOS Aug 11 05:19:15 and iOS development Aug 11 05:19:31 the amount of time i spend staring at code trying to determine where i'm inadvertantly making copes and remove them is absurd Aug 11 05:19:37 both are done with C/C++/ObjC Aug 11 05:20:02 most of the code reviews i do have turned into ``Is this copy necessary?'' Aug 11 05:20:08 Game development does not necessarily require hard-core OO. More hard-core performance. Aug 11 05:20:34 most of the games on webOS are done in C/C++, are they not? Aug 11 05:20:55 If you want to program games, study books on game programming. Aug 11 05:21:13 this tutorial is a game-making tutorial Aug 11 05:21:54 http://lazyfoo.net/SDL_tutorials/index.php Aug 11 05:21:55 The main thing is, begin with the end in mind. Aug 11 05:22:03 you just learned what an if statement is and you want to write c++... Aug 11 05:22:20 write some simple stuff before jumping in the deep end Aug 11 05:22:27 not copy and modify, actually write from scratch Aug 11 05:22:30 simple being? Aug 11 05:22:47 and do it in a language where the language's complexity is not going to impede the learning process Aug 11 05:23:02 If your goal is to write games, study how other people write games on the platforms you have in mind, not general OOP> Aug 11 05:23:10 language suggested? Python? Aug 11 05:23:24 implement a small puzzle game or something Aug 11 05:23:27 like sudoku Aug 11 05:23:48 js is fine Aug 11 05:23:50 and use C/C++/what? Aug 11 05:23:53 j/w :) Aug 11 05:23:54 Definitely start with simpler games and work your way up. Aug 11 05:24:02 trying to figure out where to start Aug 11 05:24:38 wait, game made with JS? Aug 11 05:24:56 sure why not? Aug 11 05:25:04 What kind of games do you want to write in the end? Aug 11 05:25:35 well, one would be kinda like the 'Smartphone Destroyer' Aug 11 05:25:54 but I want to get into rich-indepth-games Aug 11 05:26:19 I'm not familiar with that one. Aug 11 05:26:38 games are really a hard thing to do, consider the almost complete lack of really impressive open source games, especially RPG type games Aug 11 05:26:44 it just requires a lot more than programming Aug 11 05:26:44 Rich how? 3-D graphics? Intricate storyline? It makes a difference. Aug 11 05:26:53 art, music, stories Aug 11 05:27:04 3-D, and maybe storyline Aug 11 05:27:29 but probably no storyline for a while Aug 11 05:27:41 http://www.irt.org/games/howto/ex003/ <- good js game tutorial? Aug 11 05:28:14 Then continue with SDL tutorials. Do them, modify them, then write something of your own about the same complexity. Aug 11 05:28:33 wait, that tutorial is 12 years old lol Aug 11 05:28:54 or not? Aug 11 05:28:59 their website is confusing Aug 11 05:29:07 Run through the next more complicated tutorial, modify it, write something of your own using what you've learned. Aug 11 05:29:19 the fact that they're using document.write() in earnest makes me think it's a bit dated Aug 11 05:29:52 There's a design principle: plan to throw one system away -- you will anyway. When you're learning, that's even more so. Aug 11 05:30:03 and jQuery is good? Aug 11 05:30:37 If you want to write a 3-D game that people will play, you'll have to write half-a-dozen or more while you're learning. Aug 11 05:30:51 that's fine with me Aug 11 05:31:04 I'm 15, its all done in my spare time, at no cost to me Aug 11 05:31:30 Most of the time for commercial-grade software is polishing. When you're learning, you don't have to do all that. Aug 11 05:32:21 yeah Aug 11 05:32:43 If your goal is 3-D games, you don't need to learn to write JavaScript games. Though you can for fun, or to broaden your learning. Aug 11 05:33:22 webgl man Aug 11 05:38:19 I'll try here -> http://gamequery.onaluf.org/tutorials/1/ and see how it does Aug 11 05:40:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1tRU1fsU_Y hah Aug 11 05:42:22 HOLY CRAP. ordering google reader feeds properly was a major pain Aug 11 05:42:29 * PatrickC is off to bed, forealz this time Aug 11 05:42:40 night all Aug 11 05:43:02 but it works, mwuhahaha Aug 11 05:48:16 anyone know if media player for webos can play over http? Aug 11 05:52:14 Goddamnit Aug 11 05:55:52 halfhalo: Pure Awesome! Aug 11 05:56:06 i know, right? Aug 11 05:58:33 * Tibfib flexes his fingers Aug 11 06:04:27 halfhalo: he's done a ton of trailers too... Aug 11 06:04:47 well, it wasn't like I had work to do tonight :) Aug 11 06:05:44 i know, right? Aug 11 06:21:03 paste is really finicky on the pad Aug 11 06:21:07 very very annoying Aug 11 06:21:27 entries that have placeholder text are basically impossible to paste into Aug 11 06:21:41 one example being just type Aug 11 06:22:53 Hmm? Paste to clipboard works as well as anywhere, for me. Aug 11 06:23:24 its not copying that's the problem, it's getting the paste button to stay open long enough to tap it Aug 11 06:23:33 it keeps disappearing Aug 11 06:23:47 i wonder if it's related to the touch sensitivity patch Aug 11 06:23:57 i should remove that and see Aug 11 06:38:35 tadah. Costco.ca updated to $499 too. http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10352655 Aug 11 11:04:09 hello Aug 11 11:04:21 where i could download linphone? Aug 11 11:15:03 ? Aug 11 11:26:58 is there any news about the pricing of pre3 (in €s)? i wonder how it would compare with nokia's E6 (hardware, robustness etc.)? i just want a solid messenger and not so thrilled with droid phones Aug 11 11:38:33 not $ Aug 11 11:41:11 release is (again) postponed? Aug 11 11:45:10 look at precentral.net Aug 11 11:45:45 hmm i think i read 20 sep somewhere Aug 11 11:55:26 the enyo documentation makes my head hurt. I'm not sure if that's because it's not very well organized, or if that's because it's 5am Aug 11 12:21:03 wth? Aug 11 12:21:23 when i updated my phone app, right. in the pre app catalog, the images are MINISCULE Aug 11 12:21:37 like tiny tiny tiny Aug 11 12:24:11 hotdp: thanks Aug 11 12:28:05 hello guys Aug 11 12:28:16 hi Aug 11 12:28:21 hello Aug 11 12:29:08 someone knows unsing Impostah how can i do to logoff my Profile and login with another one ? Aug 11 12:31:23 sorry, I've never used impostah Aug 11 12:31:30 me neither Aug 11 12:35:07 guys , i must use US App Catalog but i live in Italy and have a stupid catalog..... Who can create for me a US Profile ? I give you email and psw for this... Italian catalog is absourd !!!! Aug 11 12:35:38 lol Aug 11 12:36:35 Hi there :) Aug 11 12:36:43 hi Aug 11 12:36:54 Is there any event available in enyo which will vibrate the device when it occurs? Aug 11 12:36:54 For example, if I have a tap event or click event and I want the device to vibrate when this event occurs. Is there a way to accomplish this? Aug 11 12:41:06 I tried searching the documentation but was unable to find a suitable event for this. Aug 11 12:41:29 Are you looking for a vibrate method? Aug 11 12:42:10 Yes Aug 11 12:42:38 strange if its not there Aug 11 12:42:40 I want to make the device vibrate when an event occurs in my application Aug 11 12:42:42 it was in mojo Aug 11 12:43:25 Could you tell me the mojo call... Maybe I will search with the same term and check if I can find anything Aug 11 12:53:58 http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/hps-touchpad-plan-become-the-pepsi-to-apples-coke/18079 Aug 11 12:58:52 Sounds like a good plan to me! Aug 11 12:58:55 I always did prefer Pepsi Aug 11 12:58:56 =) Aug 11 13:04:03 anyone know how to use enyo.dom.getClipboard() Aug 11 13:06:56 rwhitby-tp: ping? Aug 11 14:03:24 fxspec06: great article... I hope HP can pull it off Aug 11 14:08:59 good morning webOS comrades Aug 11 14:09:06 Retweet this: http://twitter.com/#!/webOSquire/statuses/101651323031781376 Aug 11 14:09:47 i will Aug 11 14:09:51 bbl Aug 11 14:10:33 IGNTNUNLMTD: done Aug 11 14:10:44 I love LogMeIn Aug 11 14:10:51 this would be epic Aug 11 14:11:15 never used it but those sorts of remote access apps are very handy Aug 11 14:11:47 yeah, especially because not only do they have native apps, but you can also get in from any browser Aug 11 14:12:25 it scales your desktop to fit the browser window and you can use it remotely Aug 11 14:12:27 did you hear about the Amazon cloudreader? Aug 11 14:12:29 RT'd :) Aug 11 14:12:34 http://www.amazon.com/cloudreader/ Aug 11 14:13:09 also heard walmart is releasing a web app for video streaming Aug 11 14:13:29 two big web apps outside the itunes store in one day of news :) Aug 11 14:25:15 that's good... the internet needs more choices Aug 11 14:25:55 CHOICE IS FOR SUXORS Aug 11 14:59:09 how do i remove a default search from the just type section? swiping doesn't seem to work Aug 11 14:59:37 (webos 3.0) Aug 11 15:00:22 I don't think you can Aug 11 15:00:28 NOOOOOO!! Aug 11 15:00:37 okay Aug 11 15:00:47 firmware reset Aug 11 15:00:47 duh Aug 11 15:00:59 do you have a search engine saved there that you don't want people to see? Aug 11 15:03:16 "RedTube" Aug 11 15:03:51 but yeah, a doctor is the only way I believe Aug 11 15:05:45 well, i'll find another way :) Aug 11 15:16:59 hmm, would you guys care for notifications in-app in a google reader app? Aug 11 15:19:11 what do you mean in-app? Aug 11 15:19:39 whether to raise notifications while the app is open Aug 11 15:19:46 hmm Aug 11 15:19:49 perhaps if the app is not active and on an auto-refresh? Aug 11 15:20:14 I would like a way of seeing if new feeds came about while I was reading Aug 11 15:20:46 I'd rather not see an os-wide notification of new feeds if the app isn't active Aug 11 15:20:57 I'd like the option Aug 11 15:20:58 if the app is active... might be nice to see Aug 11 15:21:41 if((!appIsActive && autoRefresh) || (cantSeeIcons == true)) Aug 11 15:21:42 ? Aug 11 15:22:05 I guess the autoRefresh would be the only time the app would refresh when it isn't active Aug 11 15:22:24 !appIsActive || cantSeeIcons Aug 11 15:23:06 johnfromnix: you don't want notifications for the app if it isn't active? Aug 11 15:23:09 that seems backwards to me Aug 11 15:23:18 Tibfib, that works for me.. if i don't want notifications when not active... I can disable autorefresh Aug 11 15:23:33 okay, sure Aug 11 15:23:52 correct.. I don't need to know about new feeds if I'm not looking at the app Aug 11 15:24:08 to me, I want notifications if I'm not looking at the app to know to get back to the app Aug 11 15:24:13 s/to me/for me/ Aug 11 15:24:34 to me.. it's not like a sms or direct tweet.. there are just too many articles to read Aug 11 15:24:47 ah, yeah fair enough Aug 11 15:24:59 but.. with your logic above, I can simply disable auto-refresh and do it manually when I go to the app Aug 11 15:25:20 johnfromnix: would you want notifications when the app is closed? Aug 11 15:25:42 definitely not when closed Aug 11 15:25:42 (it would be cafeteria method) Aug 11 15:26:35 k Aug 11 15:26:36 with stuff like a feed reader and how most blogs operate im not sure I'd want notifications cause sites are updates so frequently Aug 11 15:26:42 sure Aug 11 15:26:47 it'd be going off after every update Aug 11 15:26:49 kevets: for me, I'd only enable like one feed Aug 11 15:27:02 So what should be the default setting for notifications? Aug 11 15:27:10 All off? but tell users about enabling them? Aug 11 15:27:13 well if you could do it for an individual feed that may work Aug 11 15:27:14 anyone know what the linux path is for the touchpad battery? Aug 11 15:27:36 so you could like 'favorite' it and see when it gets updated Aug 11 15:27:45 kevets: basically Aug 11 15:28:14 and integrate with google reader? Aug 11 15:28:27 yep, app already is a full google reader client Aug 11 15:28:34 what's it called ? :) Aug 11 15:28:53 NomNomNom Aug 11 15:28:56 not out (yet) Aug 11 15:28:58 lol Aug 11 15:29:01 nice Aug 11 15:29:06 gonna finish up notifications and then probably submit it Aug 11 15:29:09 just specing them out now Aug 11 15:30:18 oooo individual feed notifications would be sweet Aug 11 15:30:19 oh snap, doctor completed and didn't error out... lets see if this boots Aug 11 15:30:35 twbbas: yeah, that's the plan Aug 11 15:30:36 * kevets experimenting with building vzw pre2 2.1.0 metadoctor in cygwin today Aug 11 15:30:49 "So what should be the default setting for notifications?" Aug 11 15:30:55 "All off? but tell users about enabling them?" Aug 11 15:32:07 twbbas: true google reader sort was ridiculous Aug 11 15:32:17 but actually pretty fun to do Aug 11 15:35:31 mobile web google reader is pretty good actually Aug 11 15:35:36 NO IT"S NOT Aug 11 15:35:39 i mean Aug 11 15:35:42 (shhh don't tell anybody) Aug 11 15:35:43 it's severely lacking Aug 11 15:35:45 lol Aug 11 15:35:49 * Tibfib dunno's Aug 11 15:35:56 I don't have a TP yey Aug 11 15:35:57 well its better than apps like feeder Aug 11 15:35:59 *ducks Aug 11 15:36:09 s/yey/yet/ Aug 11 15:36:12 it's good when it works, and it doesn't on TP Aug 11 15:37:54 NomNomNom > any rss feed reader out there Aug 11 15:38:00 hmmm Aug 11 15:38:06 interesting Aug 11 15:38:14 I don't just read my feeds... I CONSUME them Aug 11 15:38:16 msg twbbas Thanks I'll give you the money for promoting later Aug 11 15:38:17 new motto ^ Aug 11 15:38:17 my TP is not shutting off. Aug 11 15:38:21 * Tibfib oopss Aug 11 15:38:26 haha Aug 11 15:38:34 yeah there's not one i've seen that i've been really happy with. hence me using the mobile web google reader site still Aug 11 15:38:35 I expect 10% Aug 11 15:38:47 kevets: what's your email address? Aug 11 15:38:56 I'll send you nomnomnom on my next beta email Aug 11 15:39:32 nice Aug 11 15:39:43 * halfhalo-work hearts watching top gear on touchpad Aug 11 15:40:14 UK version? Aug 11 15:40:16 * PatrickC wonders how he lived without Instapaper Aug 11 15:40:45 twbbas: I'll give you .000010% Aug 11 15:40:46 THERE IS NO US VERSION. EVER. LALALALACANTHEARYOU Aug 11 15:40:53 hahahaha Aug 11 15:41:01 UK top gear >>>>> US top gear Aug 11 15:41:04 lol ok ok just checking Aug 11 15:41:15 * PatrickC missed the party Aug 11 15:41:16 :'( Aug 11 15:41:37 US top gear is really, really, really awful Aug 11 15:41:41 yeah i don't feel right after watching the US version really. they need to get rid of the moleface guy Aug 11 15:41:58 although this is the touchpad that refuses to shut off. YUNOLIKESAVINGPOWERTOUCHPAD Aug 11 15:42:08 PatrickC: well yeah you missed the "PatrickC isn't here" party. It was amazing Aug 11 15:42:11 the real problem with the US version of top gear is that it's all about the stupid stunts. they don't actually talk about cars Aug 11 15:42:13 there was balloons and everything Aug 11 15:42:16 they talk about things they can do to cars Aug 11 15:42:17 and cake Aug 11 15:42:44 aww Aug 11 15:42:51 also, free laptops. Aug 11 15:42:51 sounds like a good party Aug 11 15:43:00 yup Aug 11 15:43:04 PatrickC: what's your favorite dessert? Aug 11 15:43:13 laptops with 12-core opterons Aug 11 15:43:19 free. Aug 11 15:43:22 Tibfib: anything Aug 11 15:43:26 also: you know your going to fast in a car when you slide into a parking lot. Aug 11 15:43:28 and we had "anything" Aug 11 15:43:43 halfhalo-work: haha Aug 11 15:43:47 the truck one was decent Aug 11 15:43:49 * PatrickC hasn't done that /yet/ Aug 11 15:44:06 * halfhalo-work has. many times. all on purpose Aug 11 15:44:06 Loudergood_: where they were proving which truck was better? Aug 11 15:44:11 I liked the Chevy Aug 11 15:44:14 plus, there was a really attractive that said they were really looking forward to making you feel really "special" Aug 11 15:44:35 * PatrickC reminds esser he's 15 ;) Aug 11 15:44:43 dude Aug 11 15:44:48 i know exactly what 15 year olds are thinking Aug 11 15:44:49 lol Aug 11 15:44:51 dont play innocent with me Aug 11 15:44:55 hahahahaha Aug 11 15:45:00 yeah, and liking girls doesn't happen until after at least 16 Aug 11 15:45:12 yep Aug 11 15:45:36 smh. Aug 11 15:45:54 I keeeep getting distracted dangit Aug 11 15:46:37 haha Aug 11 15:46:41 lol Aug 11 15:46:44 twbbas: hey man Aug 11 15:46:52 * Tibfib is TRYING to add notifications to NOMNOMNOM Aug 11 15:47:12 * halfhalo-work is trying to figure out how to get this image off a TP and onto another Aug 11 15:48:21 halfhalo-work: email! Aug 11 15:48:44 that wold work. except I have to find the image on the fs Aug 11 15:49:38 16? What's the matter with you guys? when I was REDACTED it was all over Aug 11 15:50:08 * Tibfib is really curious what REDACTED is Aug 11 15:50:34 Tibfib: stop getting distracted! Aug 11 15:50:48 fix NomNomNom so its working when I get my TP Aug 11 15:50:53 PatrickC: STOP PINGING ME Aug 11 15:51:01 Tibfib: why? Aug 11 15:51:03 its fun Aug 11 15:51:11 "Tibfib: stop getting distracted!" Aug 11 15:51:49 * Tibfib is disconnecting for a bit Aug 11 15:51:49 bbl Aug 11 15:54:36 lol Aug 11 15:54:55 Anyone here used the IAP API? Aug 11 16:07:10 today, I make my game in JS Aug 11 16:07:43 The radio game? Aug 11 16:07:47 I'm looking forward to that Aug 11 16:08:08 lol Aug 11 16:08:31 twbbas: I can't get the mojo version to grab the contents of the textfield Aug 11 16:08:38 or the mojo would be working Aug 11 16:08:58 isn't just like this.textfield.innerHTML or somethign Aug 11 16:09:03 and if I could get the localfileplay to actually push the scene, that feature would be ready too Aug 11 16:09:22 I used the code I used to grab the value for villo, but it doesn't work Aug 11 16:10:06 but did you look at the code to try and understand why it doesn't work? Aug 11 16:10:16 sugardave: yes Aug 11 16:10:24 in Mojo, it should be brain-dead easy to get a value of a text field Aug 11 16:10:28 it works in 1 place, but not the other place Aug 11 16:10:48 sugardave: I get the value for my password/username and it works fine Aug 11 16:11:12 and so why doesn't it work elsewhere? Aug 11 16:11:36 haeffb: ping Aug 11 16:12:34 sugardave: don't know Aug 11 16:12:40 and it doesn't throw any errors Aug 11 16:12:53 if I define what I want it to play, it works Aug 11 16:13:17 anyone have a code snippet for the alarm "at" method ? Aug 11 16:15:05 Tibfib_: haeffb does Aug 11 16:15:08 :D Aug 11 16:15:12 DRGGGHHGH Aug 11 16:15:24 sugardave: I really don't want to wait for 5 minutes Aug 11 16:15:34 then you should use at Aug 11 16:15:44 help me haeffb, you're my only hope Aug 11 16:15:55 I saw it recently Aug 11 16:15:58 but I can't remember where Aug 11 16:16:13 PatrickC: so, here's a crazy idea...why don't you pastebin the code where you're trying to get this text value Aug 11 16:16:21 Yay for webos101 Aug 11 16:16:28 sugardave: NO NO NO Aug 11 16:16:59 Tibfib_: I'm feeling generous before I embark on this Enyo project :D Aug 11 16:17:01 sugardave: http://pastebin.com/yjf1EiQk Aug 11 16:17:42 I don't think I could ever go back to not debugging in chrome Aug 11 16:18:38 * PatrickC uses chrome too Aug 11 16:19:08 not very well Aug 11 16:19:20 for enyo Aug 11 16:19:23 not mojo Aug 11 16:19:25 PatrickC: you know that you can't access DOM elements in setup() because they're likely not there yet Aug 11 16:19:29 ? Aug 11 16:19:31 can mojo run in a browser? Aug 11 16:19:51 sugardave: that could be my problem. I haven't learned about DOM yet Aug 11 16:20:37 sugardave: ahahahahahahahahahahahah Aug 11 16:20:41 and wouldn't it make sense to try to read the value AFTER the user has put one in....maybe when they tap the button or whatever it is? Aug 11 16:21:00 sugardave: I have it in the button tap Aug 11 16:21:05 (it should be there) Aug 11 16:21:07 tap button->read value->launch Aug 11 16:21:22 ah, I guess I don't anymore Aug 11 16:21:23 I did Aug 11 16:21:38 I'll learn more about DOM and try again Aug 11 16:23:43 ianbeck: are you the dev of the instapaper app on the tp? Aug 11 16:23:44 anyone have the new uberkernel running on a cdma pre2 safely yet? Aug 11 16:23:47 PatrickC: it's imperative to understand at least the basics of the DOM and try to see how you can manipulate it with JavaScript. Aug 11 16:23:54 PatrickC: no, it's rwatkins Aug 11 16:23:59 PatrickC: Nope, that's rwatkins Aug 11 16:23:59 after that, it's gravy Aug 11 16:24:01 ah ok Aug 11 16:24:09 sugardave: gotcha Aug 11 16:24:32 thanks. I'll try and learn about DOM soon Aug 11 16:24:48 bah, DOM. thats why i play with node Aug 11 16:25:12 does mojo support node? Aug 11 16:26:28 Mojo apps can talk to Node.js services, if that's what you mean Aug 11 16:26:41 They can't use Node.js modules, so far as I know, though (could be wrong; never tried) Aug 11 16:28:59 ianbeck: tapnote sync for the lite version too? Aug 11 16:29:25 Both lite and full sync, yes. Not really sure what you're asking :-) Aug 11 16:29:44 I just saw a tweet about it :) Aug 11 16:30:12 wait, you aren't doing box.net? Aug 11 16:30:19 Correct Aug 11 16:30:44 Probably saw the tweet about the blog post I recently made to that effect Aug 11 16:31:00 Since a fair number of people have been asking for it, figured it would be nice to explain my reasons at greater length Aug 11 16:31:21 yeah, reading the blog post now Aug 11 16:33:21 is tapnote open source? Aug 11 16:33:26 No Aug 11 16:33:45 ok, cause I'm adding both dropbox, and box.net Aug 11 16:33:50 to my app* Aug 11 16:34:01 Go for it :-) Aug 11 16:34:16 I was going to see if you would care if I implimented it into tapnote as well ;) Aug 11 16:34:35 Even if it were open source, I'd be pretty resistant to adding a second sync service Aug 11 16:34:54 Thanks to the much increased complexity on both ends (user and developer) Aug 11 16:35:31 yeah Aug 11 16:36:01 There's certainly a potential market for a Box.net-powered text editor on WebOS, though, judging by my reviews/emails Aug 11 16:36:16 Feel free to compete with TapNote :-) Aug 11 16:36:26 I would make one, but I'm too busy to make one :) Aug 11 16:36:31 with my app and all Aug 11 16:36:52 ianbeck: what's your reasoning for no box.net? Aug 11 16:36:54 I might compete later, after my app is done ;) Aug 11 16:37:11 http://beckism.com/2011/08/boxnet-tapnote-sync/ Aug 11 16:37:25 Tibfib_: ^ is my reasoning Aug 11 16:38:46 ianbeck: sounds good Aug 11 16:38:51 ianbeck: you helped make Espresso? Aug 11 16:38:57 but honestly, I would rarely access my notes on dropbox anyway Aug 11 16:39:03 I just care about the syncing and saving Aug 11 16:39:07 so box.net would work fine for me Aug 11 16:39:19 same here Aug 11 16:39:33 PatrickC: Yes; I do customer support and plugin development for MacRabbit Aug 11 16:39:40 cool Aug 11 16:39:44 and since I will have 50gb on box.net, I'd rather use that than my limited dropbox account Aug 11 16:39:55 again, same :) Aug 11 16:41:02 urgggh I hate using the emultaor Aug 11 16:44:20 anyone used alarms in enyo? Aug 11 16:44:34 I'm doing something sublte wrong, but I dunno what Aug 11 16:44:35 yes Aug 11 16:44:47 rwatkins: mind pasting a snippet? Aug 11 16:45:51 http://pastebin.com/8zX5iV3t Aug 11 16:46:00 and... I now have another project :) Aug 11 16:46:33 oh Aug 11 16:46:36 rwatkins: thanks! Aug 11 16:47:12 howdy all Aug 11 16:47:45 hey LoneStar99 Aug 11 16:47:50 Tibfib: or more clearly http://pastebin.com/wicWc0se Aug 11 16:48:18 rwatkins: thanks I got it Aug 11 16:48:24 nice little flare up there about patching mojo apps on the TP. Aug 11 16:48:34 I was putting params into it's own params obj Aug 11 16:48:39 bbl Aug 11 16:53:08 Is there a way to hook up with the accounts on the phone and read items and get notified about new events? For example, I have a gmail and facebook account set up and would like to write an app that displays latest gmail emails and fb posts Aug 11 16:53:28 hmm.. good idea Aug 11 16:55:17 yaay, alarms working Aug 11 16:56:10 Tibfib: alarms in NomNomNom? Aug 11 16:56:27 well, the alarms are for notifications Aug 11 16:56:47 background sync, offline reading FTW! Aug 11 16:57:00 rwatkins: eventually ;) Aug 11 16:57:14 right now I'm trying to get the app out as fast as possible Aug 11 16:57:19 rwatkins: I love instapaper! is your tp app free? Aug 11 16:57:23 but then I realized a super easy way to do to notifications Aug 11 16:57:33 so I'm gonna squeeze it in Aug 11 16:57:45 PatrickC: app free, instapaper requires $1/month subscription. Aug 11 16:58:00 wow, a dollar for what? a list of links? Aug 11 16:58:02 really? I got an instapaper subscription for free Aug 11 16:58:09 or do they do the PDF-transformation for mobilde devices? Aug 11 16:58:27 phoque: access to the API to write a client for another platform. Aug 11 16:58:30 I'm using Spare Time Aug 11 16:58:44 and got my user on instapaper free Aug 11 16:58:54 he normally funds his costs via the app purchase. so makes nothing if clients are written for otehr platforms Aug 11 16:59:06 so he .. decided to charge the users rather than the devlopers for this. Aug 11 16:59:12 ah Aug 11 16:59:22 Spare Time cheated. Screen scraped the IP website. Aug 11 16:59:31 Spare Time scrapes pages, which is why it doesn't work as consistently Aug 11 16:59:48 scraping isn't cool. Aug 11 16:59:59 Pretty sure it's technically against the Instapaper terms, too, although I doubt Arment cares given the small number of users Aug 11 17:01:31 Spare Time works fine for me Aug 11 17:02:28 rwatkins: if you already have an instapaper account, do you still have to pay the 1/mo to use your app? Aug 11 17:02:29 It worked for most articles for me, but failed for some Aug 11 17:02:38 idk how instapaper works Aug 11 17:02:42 PatrickC: yes. Aug 11 17:02:50 ah Aug 11 17:03:09 you will be unable to login w/o a paid subscription. Aug 11 17:03:15 ah Aug 11 17:09:42 try it .. its only $3 for 3 months and Marco will refund you no questions if you change your mind. but for 3 bucks, really ... Aug 11 17:10:22 yeah, really Aug 11 17:10:25 I see twbbas all over google :) Aug 11 17:10:29 $1/month is nothing Aug 11 17:10:32 creeper Aug 11 17:10:33 rwatkins: I probably will once I get my tp Aug 11 17:10:57 phonedog talker about twbbas Aug 11 17:11:07 :) Aug 11 17:11:11 Tibfib: search 'twbbas touchpad go' Aug 11 17:11:16 talked* Aug 11 17:12:36 someone w/ a TouchPad Go has been using Paper Mache the last week or so. :) Aug 11 17:12:50 :O Aug 11 17:12:52 Seriously? Aug 11 17:12:58 * twbbas goes to check his logs Aug 11 17:12:58 seriously. Aug 11 17:13:03 with an ip address @ palm. Aug 11 17:13:11 wow Aug 11 17:13:15 what's the res? Aug 11 17:13:35 rwatkins: nice Aug 11 17:13:46 I gues Google Analytics, dont think I get the rez. But model name comes back "TouchPad Go". Aug 11 17:13:58 s/gues/use/ Aug 11 17:14:04 rwatkins: do you log the entire enyo.getDeviceInfo() Aug 11 17:14:05 ? Aug 11 17:14:09 oh Aug 11 17:14:25 I try logging some of it, but its not working for some reason. Aug 11 17:14:48 rwatkins: well if you get it working, can you let me know if/what the property for "internetAvailable" is? Aug 11 17:14:57 NomNomNom will break if used without a wifi connection Aug 11 17:15:05 because I can only check for wifi, not internet Aug 11 17:15:39 * twbbas has TouchPad Go in his logs too Aug 11 17:15:47 8/2 Aug 11 17:15:49 twbbas: do you log all of it? Aug 11 17:15:52 Tibfib: why? Aug 11 17:15:56 1024 x 768 Aug 11 17:16:03 interesting Aug 11 17:16:06 * PatrickC can't check his logs Aug 11 17:16:10 carrier as ROW Aug 11 17:16:12 but its probably there too Aug 11 17:16:15 "rest of world" Aug 11 17:16:20 so probably 3G EU version Aug 11 17:16:20 yea! no new screen resolution to screw with. Aug 11 17:16:25 row row row your boat Aug 11 17:16:38 rwatkins: only way to check for internet usage is "wifiAvailable" from device info Aug 11 17:16:50 Man, that would be beautiful if it used the same resolution Aug 11 17:16:54 Yes Aug 11 17:16:59 No editing my app ftw Aug 11 17:17:02 I was dreading the possibility of a 7" because I'd have to freaking revise the design AGAIN Aug 11 17:17:07 Tibfib: connection inResponse.isInternetConnectionAvailable == true Aug 11 17:17:19 * twbbas should really stop using pixels for sizing Aug 11 17:17:28 I had to use it in 2 spots in my TP app Aug 11 17:17:33 I tried to not use pixels at all =\ Aug 11 17:18:20 Tibfib: why not, do a quick "ping" http request if wifi is not available? Aug 11 17:18:30 good point Aug 11 17:18:36 rwatkins: is there a service to check? Aug 11 17:18:40 Tibfib: yes Aug 11 17:18:42 although rwatkins seems to have a better approach Aug 11 17:18:45 ah, pastebin? Aug 11 17:18:59 subscribe to the connectionmanager service and get notified when it goes up and down. Aug 11 17:19:19 ah dang Aug 11 17:19:35 I kinda want to be able to check instantly Aug 11 17:19:39 but I can do that myself with that Aug 11 17:20:31 just set it up on app load and then store the value somewhere each time it changes. Aug 11 17:20:56 yep Aug 11 17:21:00 http://pastebin.com/uTa1dX59 Aug 11 17:23:59 thanks Aug 11 17:24:09 np Aug 11 17:24:50 anyone written much Sencha Touch? Aug 11 17:25:42 rwatkins: hotdp_ does Aug 11 17:26:35 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, easiest way to check (if chrome) in enyo? Aug 11 17:26:48 writing something for day job in Sencha Touch. Still struggling to learn API. Aug 11 17:26:50 if (!window.PalmSystem) Aug 11 17:27:05 sugardave: ftw Aug 11 17:27:40 thanks Aug 11 17:27:45 np Aug 11 17:28:39 * twbbas is doctoring his TP back to developer build Aug 11 17:28:41 *sigh* Aug 11 17:29:20 OH NOES Aug 11 17:29:23 Tibfib, check if on device or in browser? Aug 11 17:29:27 uhoh Aug 11 17:29:35 sugardave posted an easy way Aug 11 17:29:47 is that what a netsplit looks like on Freenode? Aug 11 17:30:01 no Aug 11 17:30:11 it gets way worse Aug 11 17:30:23 Then what was that? Aug 11 17:30:30 twbbas: that is what a network outage looks like Aug 11 17:30:33 yeah, netsplits are bad Aug 11 17:30:58 looks like a bunch of people on the west coast/asia Aug 11 17:31:14 going over a link likely la->somewhere lagged out Aug 11 17:31:27 fn netsplits looks similar to most netsplits Aug 11 17:31:34 except the servers that split are masked Aug 11 17:31:58 <-- Former Open Projects Network / Freenode staffer Aug 11 17:32:06 cool Aug 11 17:32:19 Tibfib, I always put the following in depends.js Aug 11 17:32:21 runningInBrowser = window.runningInBrowser ? window.runningInBrowser : (window.PalmSystem ? false : true); Aug 11 17:32:22 Lumiere: why "former"? Aug 11 17:32:27 Lumiere: Another network I frequent has masked netsplits as of like a year or two ago Aug 11 17:32:37 PatrickC: college got too busy Aug 11 17:32:40 I can then check using if(runningInBrowser) anywhere in my kinds Aug 11 17:32:43 ah Aug 11 17:32:46 nice Aug 11 17:33:29 yea, fn started masking netsplits probably 4-5 years ago Aug 11 17:34:06 mostly trying to keep the ircd's hub servers protected Aug 11 17:34:10 one thing I don't like is that freenode shows IPs in the hosts of the users by default Aug 11 17:34:27 eh, easy enough to get around Aug 11 17:34:36 Yeah, I just had to message an admin to change mine Aug 11 17:34:46 Now I'm "unaffiliated" in my host Aug 11 17:34:51 so am I Aug 11 17:35:00 only difference is my nicks are undroppable Aug 11 17:35:18 I'm "unaffiliated" too Aug 11 17:35:25 Lumiere: "undroppable"? Aug 11 17:35:38 PatrickC: if I had to go away for a year Aug 11 17:35:49 the automated scripts that they run sometimes Aug 11 17:35:55 to clean up the nick database Aug 11 17:35:59 would not affect me Aug 11 17:36:36 and my recollection is only a full services admin can actually manually drop my nicks Aug 11 17:37:32 for example my main nick is jstraw, but I don't use it that often anymore Aug 11 17:37:34 I love how the doctor only takes like 5 mins to run Aug 11 17:37:51 twbbas: lol Aug 11 17:38:08 * twbbas can't wait to be able to test IAPs in the emulator Aug 11 17:38:19 because I've been Lumiere for 8 years 20w3d17h18m now Aug 11 17:38:20 They need to make that Aug 11 17:38:21 :) Aug 11 17:38:45 so for mp3 ringtones Aug 11 17:39:05 is there a way to set an mp3 as a ringtone that isn't in that darn folder? Aug 11 17:39:19 like with internalz or something. i guess i could just move it over Aug 11 17:39:26 kevets: I thought there was a + to add a ringtone Aug 11 17:39:36 there is Aug 11 17:39:49 oh oh oh Aug 11 17:39:54 thanks, i'm an idiot Aug 11 17:40:19 there Aug 11 17:40:22 THAT was a netsplit Aug 11 17:40:23 :) Aug 11 17:40:32 lol Aug 11 17:40:46 not a big one though Aug 11 17:40:57 well Aug 11 17:41:04 depends on which side you're on Aug 11 17:41:07 http://www.xocmusic.com/xocplays3/ makes for some killer ringtones, btw Aug 11 17:41:20 Lumiere: I saw 4? Aug 11 17:41:25 yes Aug 11 17:41:33 and they saw 113 Aug 11 17:41:51 wow Aug 11 17:41:53 looks like one leaf went down Aug 11 17:42:16 too bad they've made it neigh on impossible to figure out what did go down Aug 11 17:42:32 so during a netsplit, what happens to people like destinal who got split? Aug 11 17:42:38 oh, pre doesn't play .wma eh? Aug 11 17:42:39 does it just kick them? Aug 11 17:42:46 oh well Aug 11 17:43:20 they're just on the other server Aug 11 17:43:46 think of it like the lan in your house (assume no wireless) Aug 11 17:43:57 if you have 2 switches with 3 things connected to each Aug 11 17:43:59 ah Aug 11 17:44:03 and a cable running between them Aug 11 17:44:22 a netsplit would be unplugging the cable between the switches, or a cable from the computer to the switch Aug 11 17:44:38 the big split is the cable between the switches (leaving 2 networks of 3 Aug 11 17:44:58 the small split (that you saw there) would be one of the cables being disconnected leaving 5 + 1 Aug 11 17:45:12 ah ok Aug 11 17:45:15 unless the server went down at which point you netsplit (server disconnects from network) Aug 11 17:45:19 but you're left with 5 Aug 11 17:45:28 and the people have to reconnect Aug 11 17:46:30 deskpins are so handy for coding Aug 11 17:47:02 brb Aug 11 17:47:06 and deskpins? lol Aug 11 17:47:23 a little program that lets you "pin" windows on your comp on top of other windows Aug 11 17:47:28 like a console that has logs running or something Aug 11 17:47:33 (that's what I use it for) Aug 11 17:47:50 1 screen has my code, other screen has mIRC underneath my console logs Aug 11 17:48:14 ah Aug 11 17:48:27 I wish windows had different "screens" like linux/osx Aug 11 17:48:35 never used either Aug 11 17:48:50 well, not that much Aug 11 17:51:25 there is a win-xp power thingie from MS Aug 11 17:51:31 for vdesktops Aug 11 17:52:16 oh I used to have something like that Aug 11 17:52:22 now I know what you guys are talking about Aug 11 17:52:27 I didn't like it =\ Aug 11 17:53:23 haeffb: PING PING Aug 11 17:55:45 * fxspec06 is almost done making high res images...... Aug 11 17:57:25 fxspec06: cool Aug 11 17:59:45 yeah. Aug 11 18:00:13 okay, limited my multicard app to one error Aug 11 18:00:14 woot Aug 11 18:00:26 it's like not being able to see stuff on a wall 10 ft away to being able to see 50 ft away Aug 11 18:04:10 rofl someone just bumped a 2 year old post in the dev forums Aug 11 18:04:13 it has 10k views Aug 11 18:05:28 lol Aug 11 18:05:32 crap, multicard makes chrome not work Aug 11 18:05:46 yeah Aug 11 18:05:49 the DOM is there Aug 11 18:05:54 you can see it flash a little sometimes Aug 11 18:07:17 Tibfib: I use a special "testing.html" file to test in browser. Basically the same as index.html, except after initializing the basic app, it enyo.depends() in the base window's files and initializes it into the body, too; then in the root app kind, I check to see if I'm in a browser, and if so, don't try to open the first window there Aug 11 18:07:36 Not ideal, but at least allows me to test the basic app in browser Aug 11 18:07:41 nice Aug 11 18:07:51 that's what I'm in the process of doing Aug 11 18:08:19 ianbeck: didn't think about depending inside of the html though Aug 11 18:08:20 smart Aug 11 18:08:39 Yeah, calling enyo.depends() directly outside of the depends.js file works great Aug 11 18:09:13 Might be able to depends in the original depends.js file, actually; I haven't tried that but it would reduce duplication Aug 11 18:11:36 hmmm, localization isn't working with my multicards Aug 11 18:11:44 err, g11n doesn't work Aug 11 18:11:49 wonder what I did wrong Aug 11 18:17:21 ianbeck: thanks, that makes things easier Aug 11 18:29:55 http://teamcoco.com/video/matt-lauer-bird-attack Aug 11 18:41:12 how do I change the tapHighlight color on my list item? Aug 11 18:56:49 hmmm localStorage is behaving oddly Aug 11 18:57:20 I'm basically running the setup here: http://webos101.com/Enyo_%22Multi-Card%22_Applications Aug 11 18:57:51 My issue is any localStorage changed in my launched card is not recognized by my launcher.js until the card is closed Aug 11 19:01:26 I'd say that's a bug Aug 11 19:10:14 and cookies seem to be bad Aug 11 19:28:51 any palm people around? Aug 11 19:29:31 mebe Aug 11 19:30:30 i have found a fairly severe bug in the touchpad Aug 11 19:32:51 what sort of severe? Aug 11 19:33:13 it explodes Aug 11 19:33:22 that is severe Aug 11 19:33:44 but reboots :) Aug 11 19:33:53 well, not QUITE explodes Aug 11 19:34:05 is it a reboot, or a luna restart? Aug 11 19:34:10 what OS version? Aug 11 19:34:24 3.0.2 Aug 11 19:34:42 not sure which it is, could be just luna Aug 11 19:35:21 lumberjack would tell me, right? Aug 11 19:35:23 how quickly does it come back? Aug 11 19:35:35 also, what did you you do to trigger it? Aug 11 19:35:46 go to a website :) Aug 11 19:35:56 that's the same thing I was seeing on 3.0.0 Aug 11 19:36:00 and i'm not sure how long it took, let me do it again and time it Aug 11 19:36:03 can I ask what site? Aug 11 19:36:14 >.< Aug 11 19:36:24 unfortunately, no Aug 11 19:36:31 restricted site that i'm working on Aug 11 19:36:37 you should know, I'm not a palm employee, just wondering if I can replicate it Aug 11 19:36:39 ah, ok Aug 11 19:36:51 I haven't had that problem since 3.0.0 Aug 11 19:36:55 but I'd believe it's still there Aug 11 19:37:04 i might be able to walk through it with a palm employee, but that's a sensitive subject :) Aug 11 19:37:16 yeah, no worries Aug 11 19:38:03 I don't know if there's a bug tracker, but at the very least, you could post on the dev forums, if you have an account there Aug 11 19:38:40 i do Aug 11 19:38:46 i'll put it up Aug 11 19:38:54 i'm going to duplicate it again really quick... Aug 11 19:46:02 weee Aug 11 19:50:27 * PatrickC wanders in Aug 11 19:50:29 hey DraX Aug 11 19:51:05 hi Aug 11 19:58:48 Hmm, what's the size of the dashboard icons (large and small)? Aug 11 19:59:49 summatusmentis: took 1min 30sec to boot Aug 11 20:01:45 oh, that seems long compared to what I used to see Aug 11 20:02:04 I didn't ever actually time it, but it came back pretty quickly Aug 11 20:02:20 48px and 24px Aug 11 20:11:07 i love c++ compiler errors Aug 11 20:12:10 static const string BlahBlah() const; arrow points at BlahBlah() says type-qualifier not allowed on this function Aug 11 20:13:03 any swat people around? Aug 11 20:13:38 like samuel jackson swat team swat? Aug 11 20:13:59 I read that as "like samuel jackson sweat team swat" Aug 11 20:14:02 which is gross Aug 11 20:14:13 that's a different channel boss Aug 11 20:14:17 lol Aug 11 20:14:43 i watch Kansas City SWAT on tv sometimes Aug 11 20:16:00 *cough* sugardave *cough* Aug 11 20:16:09 * PatrickC wanders in Aug 11 20:16:15 time to start game programming Aug 11 20:17:29 yay! made a totally useless change that i only realized was useless halfway through updating all my code to use it Aug 11 20:17:43 story of my life Aug 11 20:18:50 yeah i'm not sure if i want to abandon it or not Aug 11 20:23:06 is he around? Aug 11 20:23:19 sugardave: where you at? Aug 11 20:26:59 fxspec06: ping Aug 11 20:32:13 dawm: question Aug 11 20:32:25 PatrickC, answer Aug 11 20:32:41 what did you use to make Ailium when it was JS? Aug 11 20:32:45 jQuery? Aug 11 20:33:00 nothing Aug 11 20:33:03 straight js Aug 11 20:33:04 and canvas Aug 11 20:33:15 wow Aug 11 20:33:17 jQuery can do anything Aug 11 20:34:21 I'm trying to find a good tutorial for how to make a game using js.. Aug 11 20:36:56 PatrickC: Using canvas? Aug 11 20:37:01 i'm making a mobile app for webos/android Aug 11 20:37:07 twbbas: don't know yet Aug 11 20:37:13 sencha touch is no good... anyone have an alternative? Aug 11 20:37:20 PatrickC: http://projects.joshy.org/presentations/HTML/CanvasDeepDive/presentation.html Aug 11 20:37:28 I'm using whatever the tutorial says, which I need to find a tutorial first Aug 11 20:37:35 thanks, I'll look at that now Aug 11 20:38:06 I should learn canvas, maybe that'd make more sense to me Aug 11 20:38:45 canvas was interesting, had to rethink how i did everything Aug 11 20:39:00 rethink in what way? Aug 11 20:39:02 helped tho with making it pdk Aug 11 20:39:05 gameloop Aug 11 20:39:18 events, process data, draw Aug 11 20:39:18 I should really just start writing PDK apps Aug 11 20:39:31 oh, see, that makes a lot more sense to me already Aug 11 20:41:21 my first game (swapndrop) i just changed/moved stuff when user did something Aug 11 20:41:37 so with canvas i understood better how to do it in the pdk since its the same thign Aug 11 20:41:59 PDK uses a language I understand too Aug 11 20:42:04 not for me Aug 11 20:42:11 but i was winging it pretty good Aug 11 20:42:28 no clue as to how i would do a menu or anything other than the game 'scene' tho Aug 11 20:42:35 or how to do web related stuff Aug 11 20:43:49 twbbas: that looks very.. in-depth.. thanks! Aug 11 20:44:00 I'll definitely look into it Aug 11 20:44:05 * PatrickC gets to reading Aug 11 20:44:10 PatrickC: Np. Josh Marinacci (spelling?) gave it as a presentation at OSCON Aug 11 20:44:21 cool Aug 11 20:44:22 PatrickC: If you find it useful, you may want to tweet him about it Aug 11 20:44:31 he works for HP Aug 11 20:44:32 handle? Aug 11 20:44:37 @joshmarinacci? Aug 11 20:44:41 idk how to spell his last name Aug 11 20:44:42 handle Aug 11 20:44:43 hah Aug 11 20:44:47 lol I'll look Aug 11 20:46:04 "...our recently released HP TouchPad (hold it up)..." Aug 11 20:46:05 haha Aug 11 20:46:56 lol Aug 11 20:47:01 I haven't read it yet Aug 11 20:47:05 just bookmarked it for later Aug 11 20:47:41 I'll let you know how it is :) Aug 11 20:47:52 if it can teach me, it can teach *anyone* :P Aug 11 20:48:26 HattCzech_work: jquery mobile isn't bad Aug 11 20:48:45 I just realized that Sublime Text2 has JavaC builder builtin Aug 11 20:52:02 PatrickC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVUIZWGV8rA Aug 11 20:52:06 For a face to go with his name Aug 11 20:53:18 gotcha Aug 11 20:53:35 hmm.. would I be better off linking to a separate js file.. Aug 11 21:00:04 I guess not Aug 11 21:01:58 QVC refunding $110 to customers that bought TP Aug 11 21:02:03 since the price just dropped Aug 11 21:02:51 I should see if Best Buy will refund money Aug 11 21:02:53 I doubt it Aug 11 21:03:18 I'm almost a month aftewards Aug 11 21:04:31 under 30 days they should Aug 11 21:04:32 imo Aug 11 21:06:09 Hi, how can i detect that the application is about to disconnect, before plug-ins are destroyed? Aug 11 21:06:20 anyone use webGL? Aug 11 21:06:36 i want to call a plug-in method that do some clean-up work Aug 11 21:06:51 PatrickC: unfortunately, the opinion of the customer has very little bearing on the policies of the company Aug 11 21:07:14 I just discovered that you can drag in a flash element Aug 11 21:07:17 just double tap on it first Aug 11 21:07:24 ^ touchpad Aug 11 21:07:25 summatusmentis: I believe they do have a price-match guarantee Aug 11 21:07:54 PatrickC: but their policies around how long are up to them Aug 11 21:08:10 yeah Aug 11 21:08:17 couldn't hurt to check Aug 11 21:08:34 true Aug 11 21:08:49 worst that happens is they say no Aug 11 21:09:11 and then I call them all heathens and burn the establishment to the ground Aug 11 21:09:17 oh, wait. Aug 11 21:10:00 what city are you in?r Aug 11 21:10:00 remind me not to visit that bestbuy Aug 11 21:10:13 qillerneu: does jquery mobile have a lot of reasonable functionality? that's one thing that was nice about sencha touch Aug 11 21:10:25 (tab areas, buttons, sliders, etc) Aug 11 21:10:31 PatrickC: MN, too far away from you Aug 11 21:10:35 if you want to live a happy life, never visit a best buy Aug 11 21:11:02 summatusmentis: good :) Aug 11 21:11:04 MN has best buy HQ, right? Aug 11 21:11:13 oh yeah, you're right Aug 11 21:11:20 I used to live near there Aug 11 21:11:31 orly? Aug 11 21:11:36 ya Aug 11 21:11:46 Lakeville Aug 11 21:11:59 oh, I'm in St. Paul Aug 11 21:12:08 starting grad school at the U next month Aug 11 21:12:08 oh ok Aug 11 21:12:11 cool Aug 11 21:12:27 yeh :) Aug 11 21:14:14 HattCzech_work: tabs - yes, buttons - yes, sliders - yes. Aug 11 21:14:27 * PatrickC drew a 2 colored odd-looking triangle with canvas :) Aug 11 21:14:42 cool, thanks qillerneu... i need to start looking into that Aug 11 21:14:48 It is quite different from enyo and sencha approach, as it skins authored html, instead of creating controls in javascript Aug 11 21:14:50 sencha touch = horrible on webos Aug 11 21:15:10 hmmm, might be a bit more of a pain, but still doable Aug 11 21:15:24 i'd prefer js-based, but it's not necessary Aug 11 21:15:53 it works nicely for more or less standard UIs, rather than very customized or skinned Aug 11 21:16:14 i'm fine with that Aug 11 21:16:34 i won't need to skin it or customize the look much yet Aug 11 21:16:55 just need the functionality of having different screens and stuff like that Aug 11 21:16:55 at work, we can throw a business oriented app in a very short time Aug 11 21:17:01 demo - http://jquerymobile.com/demos/1.0b2/ Aug 11 21:17:35 looks pretty similar to mojo Aug 11 21:17:37 which is fine with me Aug 11 21:19:07 bbl Aug 11 21:21:20 just used jquery mobile for the first time to prototype something. Aug 11 21:21:26 worked, but didnt like it. Aug 11 21:21:43 so using sencha touch this time. Aug 11 21:22:13 I prefer the Enyo/Sencha model more than the Mojo or jquery mobile one. Aug 11 21:23:39 HattCzech_work: why was sencha touch no good? Aug 11 21:24:00 their device compatibility isn't great Aug 11 21:24:02 rwatkins: so do i, but it doesn't format properly on webos devices Aug 11 21:24:15 ah, ok. Aug 11 21:24:35 uh oh Aug 11 21:24:41 911 is getting texting, photos, and videos Aug 11 21:24:49 oh snap! Aug 11 21:24:57 time to plank 911 Aug 11 21:24:57 and there is a reason jqm looks a bit like mojo Aug 11 21:25:11 http://developer.palm.com/blog/2010/08/jquery-mobile-announced-palm-excited-to-sponsor-the-effort/ Aug 11 21:25:12 :) Aug 11 21:25:25 hahahah, nice Aug 11 21:26:35 going from enyo/sencha model back to mojo/jquery will be not much fun Aug 11 21:26:40 but if it works well, i'll be happy Aug 11 21:27:01 Anyone here worked with the IAP API? Aug 11 21:27:12 HattCzech_work: you done much sencha work? just started using it .. Aug 11 21:27:56 need to write an iOS and maybe Android app. cant use enyo, dont want to use jquerymobile. Aug 11 21:32:07 does anyone know how to use enyo.dom.getClipboard() ? Aug 11 21:32:15 i've tried using it and it does not work Aug 11 21:33:02 rwatkins: if it's geared towards iOS, then yeah, sencha touch will be fine Aug 11 21:33:09 android is reasonable Aug 11 21:33:34 HattCzech_work: anything to be careful of, or is a pain in the ass to do? Aug 11 21:33:44 the layout is fine on sencha touch, but animations are a bit iffy Aug 11 21:33:59 getting it laid out properly is touchy Aug 11 21:34:00 doing PhoneGap but mostly just for geolocation and simple camera photo. Aug 11 21:34:27 i needed some other functionality, so i essentially wrote my own phonegap for what i needed Aug 11 21:34:36 ya, they're gonna wanna make it look iOS but I'm sure customize a bunch of stuff, will get interesting. Aug 11 21:35:11 We'll see if the existing interfaces are ok, and may write our own shell as well - maybe for a customized map control. Aug 11 21:35:46 one nice thing is that sencha touch is documented fairly well and has a lot of functionality Aug 11 21:35:52 ya. Aug 11 21:35:59 now not all of that functionality works properly, but it's there :) Aug 11 21:36:05 ha Aug 11 21:36:26 also not really clear on how to structure your app Aug 11 21:36:48 i can give you my thoughts Aug 11 21:37:05 the examples seem trivial, but I feel that something more MVC like would be better. Seems like you can go all kinds of different ways .. potentially messy. Aug 11 21:37:19 i had app.js with a base model (a panel) Aug 11 21:37:39 that had one item... a sign in page or my main "app" Aug 11 21:37:45 so i had signIn.js and main.js Aug 11 21:38:23 main replaces signIn if it is successful... and then main had references to my other "pages" Aug 11 21:38:36 works for me so far Aug 11 21:39:01 using TabPanel so I need one main Viewport I assume that controls all the other views. Aug 11 21:39:16 yeah, basically Aug 11 21:39:21 i made each tab it's own js file Aug 11 21:39:25 and main was a tabpanel Aug 11 21:39:34 so i added a tabpanel to a panel Aug 11 21:39:53 i eventually had panel->tabpanel->tabpanel Aug 11 21:40:15 and when you start adding docked items and stuff, that's where it gets iffy Aug 11 21:40:22 ya, but then each of those panels reach back into the main viewport to trigger a transition if there is just one main TabPanel container? Aug 11 21:41:07 yeah, main had functions for tab management Aug 11 21:41:12 addTab and removeTab Aug 11 21:41:28 well i have a fixed 5 items in a bottom tab panel. Aug 11 21:41:37 so I'm just activating one or another. Aug 11 21:41:40 and the js structure i used was app.main.addTab and stuff Aug 11 21:41:53 oh, then that's much simpler Aug 11 21:42:24 i'd probably recommend a js file for each tab just to keep things clean Aug 11 21:42:35 but you can do all of it in one if you really want to :) Aug 11 21:43:03 ya, got that already. js per tab Aug 11 21:43:24 but then .. one of my tab has several possible "sub" pages. Aug 11 21:43:39 yeah, that's where my tabpanel within a tabpanel came in Aug 11 21:43:40 wondering how to control replaceing that panel in an elegant way. Aug 11 21:43:59 i just used a tabpanel with the tabbar at the top Aug 11 21:44:02 with just the text Aug 11 21:44:02 there is no top / bottom navigation within that, just "back" so thats easy. Aug 11 21:44:15 whereas the main tabpanel had icons and text Aug 11 21:44:21 (like an iphone app) Aug 11 21:46:04 so you just reach into the viewport and setActiveItem directly, or did you use controllers? Aug 11 21:46:38 http://jobview.monster.com/Software-QA-Engineer-Multimedia-Job-Palo-Alto-CA-101097629.aspx?fwr=true Aug 11 21:46:43 webosdev is a must :) Aug 11 21:47:15 wondering if I should setup controllers for all this and how to handle the views if there needs to be one main Viewport to manage a fixed TabPanel. Aug 11 21:48:03 seems like controllers dont fit well into the TabPanel model. Aug 11 21:50:07 i had two controllers Aug 11 21:50:20 one was to manage information that was viewed by all tabs Aug 11 21:50:36 and the other was to dynamically build forms and format them Aug 11 21:50:42 PatrickC: "5+​ years of software expertise" in webOS? webOS aint that old Aug 11 21:51:30 "5+ years of software expertise" doesn't say anything about webOS specifically Aug 11 21:52:22 where's chuqui or sugardave when you need them? Aug 11 21:52:41 ah, so I guess I can write controllers that either reach into the main viewport to setActiveItem for the tab panel, or reach into the individual tabs panel and update that one as well. Aug 11 21:53:05 correct Aug 11 21:53:21 I just looked a few lines back and doubting my ability to help, but shoot :D Aug 11 21:53:23 HattCzech_work: thx! Aug 11 21:53:29 not a problem Aug 11 21:54:03 summatusmentis: it does Aug 11 21:54:13 it says iOS, android or webos Aug 11 21:54:36 "Expertise in Android, iOS, or webOS" Aug 11 21:54:53 oh, that's really weirdly worded Aug 11 21:55:23 yeah Aug 11 21:55:31 it's also interesting that this job posting lists android debugging as a preferred qualification Aug 11 21:55:42 but wants expertise in either android, iOS, or webOS Aug 11 21:57:18 why is it that no TP apps actually cache their data for offline! ugh. Aug 11 21:57:39 like wifi only makes that feature like totally obvious. Aug 11 21:57:54 rwatkins: we devs are too lazy to implement it? :) Aug 11 21:58:14 prepending a . on a created folder in the media/internal/ directory is supposed to make it "hidden" from Windows, right? Aug 11 21:58:30 akanster: ya, guess so. lame-o ex. https://twitter.com/#!/gauravity/status/101763085429248000 Aug 11 21:58:50 twbbas: hiddent from webos. its a unix convention. Aug 11 21:58:53 twbbas: hidden in unix based OSes Aug 11 21:58:55 twbbas: that works for linux Aug 11 21:59:34 rwatkins: it's like how no app stores session state even though x11 has support for doing that Aug 11 21:59:38 How can I hide a folder from Windows? I've tried searching but I can't find anything. Aug 11 22:00:00 make something even marginally difficult and devs won't implement it Aug 11 22:00:01 wow, nice pretty, vaporware app that in the faq page actually features the fact that "otehr thann cookies from the websites you vist, it stores nothing else" Aug 11 22:00:05 great. Aug 11 22:01:10 sure, but if youre an app that consumes an api for content, maybe you know, sync and cache that content? has nothing to do with the frameowrk your built on. Aug 11 22:01:34 twbbas: I think windows hidden folders start with a $, maybe? Aug 11 22:01:34 rwatkins: yeah it does, if it's sufficiently harder to cache/sync then it is to just grab the data Aug 11 22:01:37 people won't do it Aug 11 22:01:43 twbbas: right click, properties, check "hidden" Aug 11 22:01:49 so if you make the act of cache/syncing something you can just do as part of fetching Aug 11 22:01:55 then people are more likely to actually implement it Aug 11 22:01:58 akanster: I meant programmatically ;) Aug 11 22:02:02 ah Aug 11 22:02:15 summatusmentis: If I prepend a folder with $, will it be hidden from webOS too? Aug 11 22:02:17 twbbas: or it might be an attribute, yeah Aug 11 22:02:29 twbbas: shouldn't be? but the $ might not actually work Aug 11 22:02:47 summatusmentis: I can't find anything on setting the hidden attribute Aug 11 22:02:57 DraX: yes, it could be made easier, but this is all web technologies - there are a bazillion solutions already out there for you to re-use. Aug 11 22:03:02 twbbas: here's an example in C# - http://stackoverflow.com/questions/92376/c-creating-hidden-folders Aug 11 22:03:13 just lazy friggin developers. Aug 11 22:03:23 rwatkins: all developers are lazy Aug 11 22:03:32 twbbas: from the CLI, you can use the attrib command Aug 11 22:03:41 but that's DOS CLI Aug 11 22:03:44 summatusmentis: CLI? Aug 11 22:03:47 webOS needs more GOOD apps not yet more crappy UIs to web APIs. Aug 11 22:03:48 the solution is to make it trivial for them to do the right thing, not complain that they're not doing it :) Aug 11 22:04:08 twbbas: Command Line Interface Aug 11 22:04:19 summatusmentis: I'll look into that. Thanks. Aug 11 22:04:27 http://www.etsy.com/listing/78646241/id-america-gasket-silver-for-iphone4 Aug 11 22:04:29 nice case Aug 11 22:04:32 twbbas: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hidden_file_and_hidden_directory#Microsoft_Windows Aug 11 22:04:38 that's where I got that Aug 11 22:05:44 twbbas: but like I said, attrib seems to be a windows command Aug 11 22:06:29 summatusmentis: Yeah. I bet it's not possible. I can't find a single thing on how to do it besides just throwing a . in front to hide from webOS. Aug 11 22:06:51 twbbas: looks like there's a win32 API to interact with file attributes Aug 11 22:06:59 but within webOS, I'd guess it's not possible Aug 11 22:07:53 http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/mattrib1.html Aug 11 22:07:56 Hmm Aug 11 22:08:09 And there isn't a way to download files to the app's directory... Aug 11 22:08:24 I guess my best bet is just to randomly name my files Aug 11 22:08:35 rwatkins: does Paper Mache cache articles automatically on user login? Aug 11 22:08:46 rwatkins: I expect mattrib isn't on webOS though Aug 11 22:09:22 wtf Aug 11 22:09:27 summatusmentis: likely not. but hey, cross-compile, or rip out the cdode and write native lib w/ it. Aug 11 22:09:38 why does getClipboard clear the clipboard Aug 11 22:09:38 oh, that's an interesting concept Aug 11 22:09:40 akanster: yes. i wouldnt bitch about caching if I didnt do it myself :) Aug 11 22:09:47 does pasting clear clipboard on any other system? Aug 11 22:09:51 hehe Aug 11 22:10:28 use Instapaper all the time and drove me nuts that I'd go into the subway and have forgotten to open the app and sync it before. Aug 11 22:10:31 twbbas: so, we rwatkins and I figured it out, mattrib is GPL, so just steal their code and build it in :) Aug 11 22:10:34 assuming you're using C Aug 11 22:10:58 so alarms/bg apps in webOS even one-ups Instapaper itself w/ Paper Mache. Aug 11 22:11:29 not only caches, but does it automatically w/o even opening the app. :) Aug 11 22:11:48 summatusmentis: Nope. Enyo. :( Aug 11 22:12:05 twbbas: then you need to write an mattrib service :) Aug 11 22:12:07 talking briefly at the NYC webOS dev meetup next week - thats likely going to be my topic. Aug 11 22:12:08 man, this is a pain Aug 11 22:12:17 rwatkins: that's the other things, pain points for one dev are different from pain points for another Aug 11 22:12:28 my touchpad stays at home, so it always has wifi, so meh Aug 11 22:12:58 syncing is useful to me to be able to get notifications, etc Aug 11 22:13:06 but i don't care about the cachcing aspect really Aug 11 22:13:07 and people often communte to work in their cars which have cell access, where I dont. Aug 11 22:13:45 i usually read a book on my commute too :) Aug 11 22:13:58 so don't even care that i don't have internet during the underground parts of it Aug 11 22:14:02 but then there are also more than a handful of people in cities like NYC, London and others that have no cell/wifi access when they have free time during commute. Aug 11 22:14:46 the part of the light rail that is underground here is only 5 stops anyway Aug 11 22:21:06 look for new Tide in preware soon, cut/copy/paste now uses system clipboard, bt keyboard ctrl-(x|c|v) also work! Aug 11 22:22:35 whats tide Aug 11 22:22:49 Bespin Aug 11 22:22:50 My bad ass code editor for TP Aug 11 22:22:58 rwatkins, ACE Aug 11 22:23:02 ah Aug 11 22:23:12 not codemirror? :( Aug 11 22:23:16 TACE? Aug 11 22:23:41 not codemirror Aug 11 22:24:49 I haven't checked out tide yet, but I plan to. Aug 11 22:25:06 roy-pre101, feedback welcome when you do Aug 11 22:25:09 and feature requests Aug 11 22:25:21 Will do. Aug 11 22:25:24 it only does single files right now, but im gonna add projects and multi file soon Aug 11 22:25:36 and then add a way to run custom build/run commands Aug 11 22:25:43 to make it more IDE like Aug 11 22:28:38 might be better to switch to codemirror Aug 11 22:29:26 idk Aug 11 22:29:29 maybe not Aug 11 22:29:31 we used codemirror for http://acre.freebase.com Aug 11 22:29:40 looked into bespin but weren't convinced Aug 11 22:30:56 the auto complete seems sorta cool, but idk how useful Aug 11 22:46:21 * PatrickC wanders in Aug 11 22:47:58 we don't really need you to remind us Aug 11 22:49:28 lol Aug 11 23:02:32 PatrickC, dont turn into kense Aug 11 23:02:46 what's he do? Aug 11 23:03:07 just dont Aug 11 23:13:23 * fxspec06 takes a break Aug 11 23:13:30 * akanster mutters something about his stupid green belt Aug 11 23:17:33 fxspec06: how'd it comin? Aug 11 23:17:43 hows* Aug 11 23:25:43 pretty good Aug 11 23:25:52 anyway to programmatically quit my app? Aug 11 23:25:53 i think i got everything Aug 11 23:26:32 PuffTheMagic: it's KESNE Aug 11 23:26:50 programmatically? Aug 11 23:29:15 fxspec06: what do you use for graphics in wild'n? Aug 11 23:29:37 what do you mean Aug 11 23:29:49 like canvas, etc. Aug 11 23:29:49 i use images + webkit Aug 11 23:29:55 html / css Aug 11 23:29:58 fxspec06: through my code Aug 11 23:29:59 wow Aug 11 23:30:09 can anyone point me to instructions for installing webos 3 on a pre 2? Aug 11 23:30:17 lol? Aug 11 23:30:23 donc: impossible Aug 11 23:30:29 donc, sure Aug 11 23:30:34 wait about 6months Aug 11 23:30:41 the article isnt done yet Aug 11 23:30:41 that's what I though but I was reading https://developer.palm.com/content/showcase/device_showcase.html Aug 11 23:30:43 if it's single stage you can use window.close(); Aug 11 23:30:50 * halfhalo-work pulls out superjsfunction of doom! (function(next) {})(function() {}); !!!! Aug 11 23:30:54 HP Pre 2 Aug 11 23:30:54 Runs your Mojo-based apps faster than Pre, upgradable to webOS 3.0 and Enyo. Aug 11 23:31:00 donc: It just says upgradeable. That doesn't mean it's out yet. Aug 11 23:31:10 donc: They have plans to update it eventually to 3.0 Aug 11 23:31:13 @#$% I knew that was too good to be true Aug 11 23:31:28 twbbas: maybe Aug 11 23:31:41 the pre- was suppose to be upgradable to 2.0 Aug 11 23:31:51 upgradable: upgrade + able. able to upgrade Aug 11 23:32:14 twbbas: thanks for pointing that out! Aug 11 23:32:18 anyone else watching TIMN live podcast? Aug 11 23:32:21 about the newspaper Aug 11 23:32:25 fxspec06: :) Aug 11 23:32:44 for anyone who missed it.. photos section ----> http://t.co/OcuCRgm Aug 11 23:33:04 twbbas: not watching it, the PATRIOTS are about to kick-off Aug 11 23:33:31 fxspec06: who they playin?? Aug 11 23:33:34 fxspec06: Neither am I. It's 31 mins past 7 and they still haven't started. You and your New England sports :p Aug 11 23:33:36 that's my favorite team Aug 11 23:34:20 uhm. they playing the uhmmmmmmmm jacksonville Aug 11 23:34:23 jaguars Aug 11 23:34:31 haha! Aug 11 23:34:34 my old hometown Aug 11 23:34:50 twbbas: i haven't missed a minute of patriots football in 2 years Aug 11 23:42:11 webos keyoard has a delete key Aug 11 23:42:14 it backspaces Aug 11 23:42:41 you mean it has a backspace key Aug 11 23:42:46 there is no delete Aug 11 23:43:19 my vkb has no backspace/delete key Aug 11 23:45:54 but it says delete Aug 11 23:49:19 where? Aug 11 23:49:42 ok the hp keyboard Aug 11 23:50:31 on* Aug 12 00:01:14 ah I thought you found the kb source Aug 12 00:03:59 * fxspec06 in the app portal submitting TP update Aug 12 00:04:05 users should be more than pleased' Aug 12 00:07:13 How can scroll a VirtualList to botton from JavaScript? Aug 12 00:22:41 ugh internet went out Aug 12 00:25:31 Tibfib: be-pong-lated Aug 12 00:27:03 pepone: https://developer.palm.com/distribution/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=16227&hilit=scroll+virtuallist Aug 12 00:28:19 * PatrickC is gonna learn more Canvas tonight Aug 12 00:28:22 canvas is fun :) Aug 12 00:29:34 PatrickC: What have you done so far? Aug 12 00:30:13 twbbas: made a rectangle, weird looking two-colored triangle, and gradients Aug 12 00:30:19 nice Aug 12 00:30:25 yeah Aug 12 00:30:32 make the next paratrooper Aug 12 00:30:45 but for some reason, you can't use an outside js file Aug 12 00:32:34 * PatrickC doesn't have Paratropper Aug 12 00:34:50 twbbas: Paratrooper is js? Aug 12 00:36:49 PatrickC: It's not PDK if that's what you mean Aug 12 00:36:56 wow Aug 12 00:37:09 now I have a cool game to look at for inspiration :) Aug 12 00:37:26 It was available on 6/6/09 Aug 12 00:37:35 one of the most popular webOS games Aug 12 00:37:37 oh, and there's wild'n, but paratrooper has more to look at wild'n Aug 12 00:37:48 twbbas: that's when webOS launched? Aug 12 00:37:59 PatrickC: Yep Aug 12 00:38:08 wow Aug 12 00:38:12 I'm about 80% sure it was available at launch Aug 12 00:38:46 * PatrickC hopes to have his app ready by tp-go/pre3 launch Aug 12 00:39:00 What game are you making? Aug 12 00:39:05 * oil doesnt remember paratrooper at launch Aug 12 00:39:15 oil: I'll try and see where I read it Aug 12 00:39:38 did u guys all see my new screenshots? =p Aug 12 00:39:41 twbbas: right now, idk. I'm thinking of a good idea Aug 12 00:39:57 but twbbas: I'm talking about that "radio" game ;) Aug 12 00:40:57 http://twitter.com/#!/fxspec06/status/101813578415353856 Aug 12 00:42:19 cool Aug 12 00:43:12 fxspec06: Now THAT looks amazing Aug 12 00:43:38 thank you. Aug 12 00:43:40 * rwatkins is not digging the font choice and embossed thing. Aug 12 00:44:07 good to see a solid app in the catalog tho Aug 12 00:44:19 which app? Aug 12 00:44:35 fxspec06's Aug 12 00:44:42 yeah Aug 12 00:44:45 its awesome! Aug 12 00:44:53 * PatrickC might have been a beta tester Aug 12 00:45:21 lol, you were there when i needed you Aug 12 00:45:33 everybody, 1, 2, 3, (awwwwww) Aug 12 00:45:40 thx :) Aug 12 00:45:52 k time to go join WOR Aug 12 00:46:11 forums? Aug 12 00:47:21 yep Aug 12 00:48:44 I was already signed up.. huh Aug 12 00:49:42 * PatrickC loves knowing people who work at WOR :) Aug 12 00:49:54 I knew about the forums a month before they were announced :) Aug 12 00:55:02 So... Aug 12 00:55:12 Here's a question: How do you use your TouchPad to access files on your PC? Aug 12 00:56:14 dropbox Aug 12 00:57:31 box.net Aug 12 00:57:36 or Gemini Aug 12 00:57:48 I know some people who's entire documents folder is always just dropbox Aug 12 00:58:28 Mmm, good point about box.net Aug 12 00:59:05 Would also like a non-cloud option. Aug 12 00:59:09 but gemini file manager will have it soon Aug 12 00:59:18 as will Internalz HD Aug 12 00:59:40 box requires you have a busniess or enterprise accnt for a desktop sync client. Aug 12 01:00:00 but you can always go to box.net Aug 12 01:00:14 box.net != your PC Aug 12 01:00:41 box.net == any pc Aug 12 01:00:54 I assume the scenario is "i have this file on my PC, how do I get it on my TP w/o sitting at the keyboard of my PC". Aug 12 01:01:22 Indeed. Aug 12 01:01:23 box.net will not have anything in it from your PC that you did not explicitly upload to box.net already. Aug 12 01:01:36 ah I see now Aug 12 01:01:47 dropbox would alteast have anything you put in your PC's Dropbox folder. Aug 12 01:02:18 put the file on a linux NAS box instead ;) Aug 12 01:02:18 then use samba to share it to the touchpad running uberkernel and cifs Aug 12 01:02:43 rwhitby: assuming you also installed somethig that gives you a terminal too. Aug 12 01:02:50 yep Aug 12 01:03:17 but all that stuff will eventually be subsumed into apps like gemini Aug 12 01:03:24 seems like using a bulldozer to put in a staple. Aug 12 01:03:53 today a stable, tomorrow a skyscraper Aug 12 01:04:00 s/stable/staple/ Aug 12 01:04:21 most people just need to staple, not build a skyscraper. :) Aug 12 01:04:24 twbbas: "Price Cloud"? Aug 12 01:04:31 * halfhalo has his box.net account mounted on his device. works ok. Aug 12 01:04:43 most people thought the patch infrastructure was overkill for changing the names on tabs in the launcher Aug 12 01:05:41 roy-pre101: so ya, at this point you need to drop down to the unix shell and figure out a way to ssh/mount/whatever your PC. Aug 12 01:06:06 rwatkins: or use dropbox, right? Aug 12 01:06:11 indeed. Aug 12 01:06:23 i can imagine which is likely easier. Aug 12 01:06:36 and which will be more powerful in the long run Aug 12 01:06:46 that's why both are needed Aug 12 01:07:16 custom kernels are fun and all but cifs mounting is not a real end user solution. Aug 12 01:07:24 my PC is firewalled Aug 12 01:07:44 or try and explain how to even setup the cifs service to begin with Aug 12 01:07:50 rwhitby: I was thinking Samba. Aug 12 01:07:59 lots of fun playtoys for the internals team, but clearly a niche solution. Aug 12 01:08:03 roy-pre101: yep, cifs is samba Aug 12 01:08:25 http://forum.webosroundup.com/index.php?threads/new-game.487/ Aug 12 01:08:31 rwatkins: all a matter of packaging Aug 12 01:08:32 I saw on the wiki that xorg tools is available. Does that work on the TouchPad? Aug 12 01:08:47 rwhitby: packaging on the TP part does not solve the PC part. Aug 12 01:08:55 This is for a my father-in-law, who runs on Windows. Aug 12 01:09:04 but packaging on the PC does. Aug 12 01:09:28 PatrickC: Shoot man, if you don't have investment in the game you're making it will be damned hard to finish. Aug 12 01:09:48 roy-pre101: I'm doing in my spare time for learning Aug 12 01:09:52 rwhitby: how many windows and osx packages have been written for webosinternal products? Aug 12 01:09:53 in 15 :) Aug 12 01:10:01 but no argument that dropbox is the easiest way to solve this particular request Aug 12 01:10:31 rwatkins: none have been needed so far, apart from WOSQI which Jason wrote independently of WebOS Internals Aug 12 01:10:34 mom wants to remove redeye from a picture, I dont point her at Photoshop. Aug 12 01:10:57 rwatkins: indeed, but Photoshop is still needed and successful Aug 12 01:11:05 just not for your mom Aug 12 01:11:09 sure, but also not the solution for the problem proposed. Aug 12 01:11:23 * haeffb channels Adora: YOUR MOM!!! Aug 12 01:11:25 there is never just one solution Aug 12 01:11:42 but as I said, dropbox is the easiest here Aug 12 01:11:48 replacing yoru kernel, installin x, setting up a cifs share and god knows what else .. to get a file off your PC. uh. ok. Aug 12 01:12:10 linux solutions always seem to start with "replace your kernel ..." Aug 12 01:13:00 instead of "install this incompatible dll" Aug 12 01:13:07 so roy-pre101: any suggestions? :) Aug 12 01:14:10 PatrickC: Hmm, nope! :) Aug 12 01:14:37 Checkers! Aug 12 01:14:58 lol Aug 12 01:15:00 "it no longer even surprises me when every question -- no matter how simple -- results in someone suggesting that you either A) patch your kernel or B) change distros. It's inevitable and inescapable, like Hitler." Aug 12 01:15:33 awesome, godwin. Aug 12 01:15:38 this, coming from an author of emacs. Aug 12 01:16:22 brb Aug 12 01:16:29 fxspec06: yeah, nice idea : Aug 12 01:16:33 :P * Aug 12 01:18:44 rwhitby: so how is patching totally legal? Aug 12 01:19:05 patch itself has a copy of the original code. Aug 12 01:19:15 it falls under the fair use provisions of the copyright act. plenty of legal precendent. Aug 12 01:19:33 ya, so if I patch your *entire* app, removing all lines, thats legal? Aug 12 01:19:51 yep, a patch can be created to do that which does not contain any of your code. Aug 12 01:20:16 ok, a patch to add DOS line endings to every single line, legal? Aug 12 01:20:30 consult your lawyer Aug 12 01:20:34 clearly not. Aug 12 01:21:22 I think you should "consult your lawyer" before you declare patch distribution legal. Aug 12 01:22:01 similarly before declaring them illegal Aug 12 01:22:31 rwhitby: clearly a patch with all lines of the source code would be illegal. do you dispute? Aug 12 01:22:51 no, that's not indisputable Aug 12 01:22:52 or, hey, you'd happily ship that out in Preware feeds? Aug 12 01:23:12 PatrickC: you like? i thought it was a good idea Aug 12 01:23:21 it seems to be working out well for me Aug 12 01:24:11 rwatkins: it would depend upon the format of the patch Aug 12 01:24:34 rwhitby: you'd just playing games, you clearly know that its not legal. Aug 12 01:24:55 s/you'd/you are/ Aug 12 01:25:35 you cannot say "there is no legal issue". Aug 12 01:26:05 there is no legal issue for a patch which adds a single line to the appinfo.json file Aug 12 01:26:17 which is what is being discussed in that thread Aug 12 01:26:55 by the same argument, replacing a single, one line file would be the same as well. Aug 12 01:27:14 if you intend to illegally redistribute an app by hiding it in a patch, of course you will be open to legal action Aug 12 01:27:37 I'm taking issue with your point that 'patched legal, whole files illegal' Aug 12 01:28:06 patches are very clearly possibly illegal, depending on how much, and the same with whole files. and the number of lines where it cross the line is .. unknown. Aug 12 01:28:10 and you're reading that in the context of the thread in which it is in, right? Aug 12 01:28:25 or are you intentionally trying to take it out of context? Aug 12 01:28:39 I know the thread, but clearly they are doing more than just setting uiRevision: 2 Aug 12 01:28:40 fxspec06: its a great idea! Aug 12 01:28:48 too bad someone already beat me to it :/ Aug 12 01:28:56 rwatkins: indeed, they are adding a back button too. Aug 12 01:29:20 and your saying "individual file distribution is not legal" and thats not clearly any more illegal than a patch file of the same size. Aug 12 01:29:40 I think you have a narrow view of how patch files can be constructed Aug 12 01:29:46 I understand diff. Aug 12 01:30:06 then you will know that you can use diff to create patch files which contain none of the original file. Aug 12 01:30:26 "can" does not mean possible in all cases. Aug 12 01:30:28 note that I said "patches", not "diff -u patches: Aug 12 01:30:36 possible in all cases Aug 12 01:31:08 look up "diff --ed" Aug 12 01:31:16 how many patches use that format? Aug 12 01:31:21 any? Aug 12 01:31:23 1%? Aug 12 01:31:30 as many as needed it seems Aug 12 01:31:38 no, in the feed today. any? Aug 12 01:32:00 none. if there is a valid legal issue raised, it's easy to switch. Aug 12 01:32:14 so, my point is your speaking in absolutes with an incorrect position. Aug 12 01:32:26 no, I'm speaking of patching. Aug 12 01:32:49 which can be done in a manner which does not even require the safety of the fair use provisions of the copyright act if necessary. Aug 12 01:33:02 I'm saying the patched *you* are distributing are likely just as illegal as the files youre tellign people not to distribute as illegal. Aug 12 01:33:15 the ones sitting on your servers today. Aug 12 01:33:21 rwatkins: i do not agree. Aug 12 01:33:44 ya, shall we pull them down and count up the lines of original source code in them? Aug 12 01:33:59 if there were such patches which fell outside the commonly accepted limits of the fair use provisions, then you may have a point. there are not. Aug 12 01:34:02 I'm guessing there are more than a couple dozen. Aug 12 01:34:33 feel free to ask your lawyer to make a determination on your behalf and take it to court. Aug 12 01:35:11 my point is .. you have declared 'patches legal' and 'files illegal'. thats not correct. Aug 12 01:35:31 I have declared patches legal. I stand by that declaration. Aug 12 01:35:51 all patches? or just .. some patches? Aug 12 01:36:06 I have declared that the diff -u format that is currently used falls within the fair use provisions for the specific patches that we distribute. Aug 12 01:36:23 so "some patches" the ones you already distribute. Aug 12 01:36:40 and clear not "all files illegal" because a single file can be small. Aug 12 01:36:48 We have also rejected patches for distribution because a diff -u format of them would not have fallen within those provisions. Aug 12 01:37:03 I distribute an entire appinfo.json for a 10k line app, thats likely ... legal. Aug 12 01:37:18 so clearly - not all patches legal, and not all files illegal. Aug 12 01:37:50 I think you have an invalid view of the fair use provisions, it seems you are using line count as the only measure. Aug 12 01:38:19 ok, then what the measure? how much the app is changed, feature wise? Aug 12 01:38:39 how much the of the functionality is in those lines, rather than raw line count? Aug 12 01:39:03 as I said, patches can be created that contain none of the lines. Aug 12 01:39:07 so your point is moot. Aug 12 01:39:14 its copywritten material. fair use in the US is fairly limited here. Aug 12 01:39:36 no, its not moot till you ditch the -u format and go for one that uses no original source code. Aug 12 01:40:18 "i could have done it a different way" doesnt make the existing way legal. Aug 12 01:40:20 if you have an issue with the fair use applicability of the patches that we distribute, please feel free to raise it. Aug 12 01:41:01 if, however, you are arguing about some other full-file patch that we are not distributing, feel free to use /dev/null Aug 12 01:41:06 you're just coming down as "god of homebrew" and declaring "this good" and "this bad". I think you need to reconsider before you do that sort of thing. Aug 12 01:41:07 NuttyBunny: hey Aug 12 01:41:38 I'm one person with an opinion stated. Others take or leave that as they choose. As you are doing now. Aug 12 01:41:39 you want patches to be legal, but its not clear they are. you just havent been sued. Aug 12 01:42:07 Patches are legal. You continue to be imprecise in your statements. Aug 12 01:42:30 you clearly know the weight you like to throw around as "WebOS Internals and Preware Founder and Developer Aug 12 01:42:49 yes, and I carefully consider my opinions based on that. Aug 12 01:43:11 you may not agree with them, and that is your right. Aug 12 01:44:46 Hey all :) Aug 12 01:44:53 In summary. Patches are legal. The patches we distribute in diff -u format fall under fair use provisions. Feel free to disagree and take it to court. Aug 12 01:45:27 An illegal redistribution of an app in diff -u format continues to be illegal. Aug 12 01:46:08 "patches may be legal, depends on patch, not tested in court". Aug 12 01:46:41 "we think our patched fall under fair use, but hey, not lawyers consulted and nobody sued us yet." Aug 12 01:46:48 s/not/no/ Aug 12 01:47:14 As I said, our opinions differ on this matter. Aug 12 01:47:58 you think the patches you have are legal. thats about it. Aug 12 01:48:15 you think they may be illegal. difference of opinion. Aug 12 01:48:44 i think *a* patch is "potentially illegal" and I dont know about your patches specificall. Aug 12 01:49:11 no, you think a specific format of a patch is potentially illegal, not a patch. Aug 12 01:49:46 at least I assume you're not stating that a diff --ed patch could be illegal. Aug 12 01:50:09 does anything here implement diff -ed, or are you just talkign about vaporware? Aug 12 01:50:50 a patch that does not fall under the fair use provisions would indeed be implemented that way, and the infrastructure would handle it as designed. Aug 12 01:51:25 so, your systems will blindly handle patches be they legal patches or illegal patches. Aug 12 01:51:37 no, our system has humans in the loop. Aug 12 01:51:39 and thats fine. but that doesnt make "patches are legal". Aug 12 01:51:49 and patches are legal. Aug 12 01:51:54 no, they are not Aug 12 01:52:08 we must agree to disagree on that point. Aug 12 01:52:12 I can put up a patch today and distribute it in my feed and Preware or WOSQI will install it. Aug 12 01:52:28 that patch can be illegal. Aug 12 01:52:54 yet the act of patching will remain legal Aug 12 01:52:56 you can claim *your patches* are legal, not *patches* are legal. Aug 12 01:53:20 No, I said YOUR MOM! Aug 12 01:53:27 haeffb: :) Aug 12 01:53:50 the distribution of that patch is potentially illegal Aug 12 01:54:11 rwatkins: you see there are some that believe that they have a sovereign right to tell you that you cannot change the stereo in your car (i.e distribute a legal patch to a third-party app) Aug 12 01:54:45 that misguided belief must be counted. patching is legal. illegal redistribution is illegal. Aug 12 01:55:01 s/counted/countered/ Aug 12 01:55:18 the act of patching sure, but you've been saying distributing patches it legal. Aug 12 01:55:31 "As long as only patches are distributed, and not the modified app itself, there is no legal issue." Aug 12 01:56:05 there is a legal issue and its dependent on the content of the patch. Aug 12 01:56:05 copying files is legal. if the file you are copying is an illegal copy of a movie, you don't say that copying files is suddenly illegal. Aug 12 01:57:13 we're not talkgin about movies here, we're talking about distributing text files that contain source code to copywritten applications. Aug 12 01:57:35 the legality of which clearly depends on how much you are copying. Aug 12 01:58:03 diff patches shouldn't contain more than the line before and line after any edit(s), IIRC Aug 12 01:58:09 If that. Aug 12 01:58:30 Shadyman: and what if I edit every single line? we've already covered that point. Aug 12 01:58:37 * Shadyman scrolls up Aug 12 01:59:07 Oh dear, this has been going for a while. Aug 12 01:59:22 two strong willed people. Aug 12 01:59:28 Clearly. Aug 12 01:59:39 so, what if I wrote a patch to remove ads from an app. Then distributed the patch? Aug 12 02:00:10 haeffb: you can do that in a legally valid way. it may not be ethical or moral, but it is not illega. Aug 12 02:00:30 wow, rwhitby the lawyer. Aug 12 02:00:37 * haeffb is bound more by ethical and moral than by legal. Aug 12 02:00:43 I'd say "possibly legal" Aug 12 02:00:44 haeffb: indeed, so am I Aug 12 02:01:07 haeffb: but I make sure people don't mix the two when they are trying to impose their ethics on others. Aug 12 02:01:09 the nice part of that is that I get to choose what I consider ethical and moral... :) Aug 12 02:01:29 and we also get to choose legal, as we live in diff countries here. Aug 12 02:01:45 well, I and the nuns who tried to fill my young head full of mush. Aug 12 02:01:51 indeed, although the Berne convention covers most of us here. Aug 12 02:02:09 Preparation H takes care of Berne Aug 12 02:03:27 rwatkins: thanks for pointing out a clarity issue with my post. I have reworded it. Aug 12 02:03:52 PatrickC: I'm back now Aug 12 02:03:59 hey twbbas Aug 12 02:04:08 PatrickC: You mentioned Price Cloud earlier? Aug 12 02:04:09 I've got an awesome game idea. Aug 12 02:04:10 pm? Aug 12 02:04:13 yeah Aug 12 02:04:13 ok Aug 12 02:04:19 let's take it to the pm Aug 12 02:04:44 rwatkins: my post now more clearly reflects what I have been saying here. Aug 12 02:04:51 ok Aug 12 02:04:53 I think there is still an illegal area that is "distributing source code to a copywritten application" that is short of "redistribution of the app itself" Aug 12 02:05:20 but, hey, your post is alteast closer. Aug 12 02:06:22 rwatkins: updated point 1 to cover that Aug 12 02:06:56 right, but disturbition of 1/2 the app in source format is also illegal. Aug 12 02:07:17 just updated #1 again Aug 12 02:07:46 cool. Aug 12 02:07:56 so then its interesting if a single file is legal or illegal. not clear. Aug 12 02:08:02 no argument that distributing the source code of an app against copyright is illegal. but that is very different from patching. Aug 12 02:09:02 and I still maintain is possible to "patch too much" to be legal. but maybe thats further down the road from existing patches. Aug 12 02:09:40 its not clear how much copy of code being distributed is illegal. and in there lies the issue with whether a patch or file is legal or illegal. Aug 12 02:10:08 too big a patch, illegal. too small a file, likely legal. Aug 12 02:10:24 therein lies the distinction between redistributing someone else's source or distributing an original patch. Aug 12 02:10:53 but that is not decided based on "format" - patch or whole file. its clearly based on "how much is copied". Aug 12 02:11:07 you can never say that distributing your own original patch to someone else's app is illegal, it is never so. Aug 12 02:11:58 sure, I can write a patch that *extensively* rewrites Pandora, just because, say I want it to work differently, or "patch" it to enyo. thats illegal. Aug 12 02:12:00 if you create a file that is a combination of someone else's source code and your original patch code, then you need to think about whether you are using a good format to distribute your patch if it falls outside of the provisions of fair use. Aug 12 02:12:26 rwatkins: I can write a patch that *extensively* rewrites Pandora, just because, say I want it to work differently, or "patch" it to enyo. that is legal. Aug 12 02:12:49 rwhitby: if you can write the patch in such a format as to not quote the original source. Aug 12 02:13:07 if, however, I distribute their source code in a manner which falls outside the fair use provisions, then I'm obviously outside the fair use provisions. Aug 12 02:13:12 but thats only that type of patch. its also possible to rewrite, do a diff -u and have an illegal patch. Aug 12 02:13:15 rwatkins: which you can always do. Aug 12 02:13:35 "can" and "do" there are likely no diff -ed patches currently. Aug 12 02:13:50 and I'm sure the current community considers "patch" as "diff -u" Aug 12 02:13:51 you can do anything in life in an illegal manner if you so choose. that does not make doing those things in general less legal. Aug 12 02:14:32 fxspec06: ping Aug 12 02:14:46 if I distribute a patch that contains "too much" of the app source code, thats illegal. and the current patch format in wide use, is that format, yes? Aug 12 02:15:25 My main system runs Fedora 15 x64. Would I be better off installing Ubuntu in a virtual machine and installing the SDK/PDK or would I be better off following instructions like http://stefanlohmaier.de/post/7460687319/webos-sdk-on-fedora ? Aug 12 02:15:56 do whatever you're more familiar with Aug 12 02:16:49 would be interesting if this was apple to see how far you'd get with your patches before getting sued. Aug 12 02:17:18 indeed it would, and it would be interesting to see whether they win or not. Aug 12 02:17:37 but they'd have a case. Aug 12 02:17:47 and it would be a dark day if Apple was able to stop people swapping out the stereo in their car. Aug 12 02:18:09 rwatkins: not if the patch was --ed or fell under the fair use provisions. Aug 12 02:18:41 are we distributing diff --ed patches? no. Aug 12 02:18:46 it's clear that Apple do want to be able to stop people swapping the stereo in their car. that doesn't mean that the populace should let them. Aug 12 02:18:52 actually given software licensing wouldn't it be more like a leased car? Aug 12 02:19:07 Loudergood: well, that's a whole different can of worms :) Aug 12 02:19:14 cars and stereos are not copywritten code. Aug 12 02:19:27 no, your phone on sprint is more like a leased car. Aug 12 02:19:37 if you change it in a way they dont like, they revoke your right to drive it. Aug 12 02:19:42 I get where you're coming from though, and morally I agree with you. Laws however, love to not make sense. Aug 12 02:20:31 but again, metaphors are pointless. this is code. copywritten text and ideas. Aug 12 02:21:34 PatrickC ping pong? Aug 12 02:22:06 fxspec06: see pm Aug 12 02:30:44 after further reading, I think I would be better off avoiding the Ubuntu within VirtualBox route Aug 12 02:33:39 pi31415: WUBI is easy too Aug 12 02:33:52 CHRIST Aug 12 02:33:59 nvm Aug 12 02:34:04 just read the backlog Aug 12 02:34:10 funkatron: WHAT! Aug 12 02:35:27 https://twitter.com/#!/declanf/status/101782726482468864/photo/1 Aug 12 02:35:54 mm Aug 12 02:36:57 ugh.. I figured jdk would suffice for a jre... Aug 12 02:37:17 that sentence doesn't make sense Aug 12 02:37:53 I installed the JDK (Java Development Kit) and uninstalled all my JRE (Java Runtime Environment) Aug 12 02:38:02 hoping the JDK would act as the runtime Aug 12 02:38:19 twbbas: lololol Aug 12 02:41:49 Protip: PatrickC, don't do this: http://gizmodo.com/5830076/how-i-made-a-15+year+old-app-developer-cry Aug 12 02:44:43 Tibfib: I have no comment for that picture Aug 12 02:44:57 yeah, poor picture for what the article went for Aug 12 02:46:09 I don't understand how you could send hundreds of emails like that Aug 12 02:46:22 A 15 yr old smart enough to program should know how email works Aug 12 02:46:55 twbbas: ++ Aug 12 02:48:38 * halfhalo finished his 2 hour speed php coding session and wants php to burn in a fire Aug 12 02:48:56 Tibfib: yeah, that won't happen.. lol Aug 12 02:49:30 mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkaaaaaaaaaay Aug 12 02:49:53 * halfhalo also got his amazon shipment in Aug 12 02:50:37 Tibfib: I'm not that stupid lol Aug 12 02:50:39 mmm…. bulk popcorn…. Aug 12 02:52:02 PatrickC: I'm sure that kid wasn't stupid. Aug 12 02:52:27 PatrickC: you really should bcc your emails Aug 12 02:55:06 don't you love having an idea for an app, and then having it totally change? Aug 12 02:59:06 urggh, are there any blogs out there that post like every minute? Aug 12 02:59:54 * twbbas thinks Tibfib is trying to test his notifications but doesn't want to wait until new articles are written **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Aug 12 02:59:59 2011