**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 25 02:59:57 2011 Sep 25 03:04:55 hey Sep 25 03:52:42 does anyone know how to change a command menu button state from pressed to unpressed/depressed? Sep 25 03:55:34 P|C is down? Sep 25 04:01:40 PatrickC_Away: Sep 25 04:09:08 I palms app download reporting seem wonky to anyone... Sep 25 04:28:38 Hm, I don't want to code right now.. Sep 25 04:28:54 * Nilium calls up his little sister to harass her for fun. Sep 25 04:47:44 CTLAdvance: it's seriously broken again Sep 25 04:48:00 ugh Sep 25 04:48:29 I am not sure it ever works write through the front end, nothing ever adds up Sep 25 04:48:50 yep, over a hundred failed downloads every day for the last 4 days Sep 25 04:50:00 you would think that HP/Palm would have learnt from the last download figures clusterf*** a couple of months back that this is one place where developers will not cut them any slack. Sep 25 04:50:20 * DougReeder waves hello Sep 25 04:51:18 last time around a big deal was made of it, but given the current lack of direction for webOS I'm sure its hard to make some people give a damn. Sep 25 04:52:01 well, the party line is that webOS software and app ecosystem is full steam ahead. These actions clearly make a mockery of that position. Sep 25 04:52:33 theres 'party line' and 'reality in teh trenches' Sep 25 04:53:04 Well, you could argue that this is "business as usual" :-( Sep 25 04:53:21 I've worked with reporting issues with payment providers. Its very near the bottom of the list of "fun things to work on". Sep 25 04:54:18 I wish I had mentioned this issue in my e-mail to the CEO's office. Sep 25 04:55:23 Yeah, I dont even see the fail, I see nothing but NA's Sep 25 04:55:32 you cant possibly get an accurate count Sep 25 04:55:58 then the Question is, does this get fixed and we get the real correct data, or do we lose money on it Sep 25 04:56:04 thats the big Q Sep 25 04:56:05 :) Sep 25 05:03:59 they've been fairly generous with payment - paying more when the error is the other way, all the promo code giveways etc. Sep 25 05:04:22 its just they cant get it working reliably Sep 25 05:04:34 Yeah. Sep 25 05:05:36 And they don't seem to get the concept that developers would like to be able to cross-check the data with other sources, to increase confidence. Sep 25 05:07:40 The other thing is, half the time when you login you cant get past the front screen, Sep 25 05:08:39 They should halt WebOS dev and focus on their web interface.. then once they have thet fixed.... move on to webOS dev Sep 25 05:08:59 i think those are two different sets of people Sep 25 05:09:41 yeah, two different groups Sep 25 05:10:04 it's management attention which is the single resource which needs to be redirected, not the people doing the work Sep 25 05:10:39 you dont say "ya, take a break from writing Ares2, go look into Paymentech billing transactions this week". Sep 25 05:10:44 I know... Sep 25 05:10:50 just a happy thought Sep 25 05:11:18 always easier to be the armchair CEO Sep 25 05:11:51 yep Sep 25 05:12:08 infact I am sitting in a lazyboy now... Sep 25 05:12:31 why there is no app search for webos in hp website? Sep 25 05:12:50 they should have done that. Sep 25 05:13:33 shoulda done alot of things. but you make a list and prioritize Sep 25 05:13:58 hmm. Sep 25 05:15:42 Actually, that was one big problem -- they picked "TouchPad" to prioritize, and little else got done. Sep 25 05:15:45 wow, beta submission went from "clicked submit on the last page" to "published" .. while i typed here Sep 25 05:16:36 though I guess thats a lie. the actual beta download page hasnt updated yet. Sep 25 05:18:13 rwatkins: do you know what they call opening webos 2 apps in toucpad? with 360 * 480 resolution? is it virtualization? Sep 25 05:19:07 compatibility mode Sep 25 05:19:28 oh thanks Sep 25 05:21:04 only app i run in compatibility mode is Spotify Sep 25 05:22:01 very tempted to dig out their plugin code and write an enyo version for myself. Sep 25 05:22:15 enyo ftw Sep 25 05:22:20 indeed. Sep 25 05:23:19 been writing a bunch of sencha touch code at work the last few weeks. Sep 25 05:23:27 and...? Sep 25 05:23:32 Ah, how's that? Sep 25 05:23:37 cranked out a bunch of enyo the last couple days - so much more pleasant to write Sep 25 05:23:43 excellent Sep 25 05:23:59 I like that the sencha model is roughly the enyo one Sep 25 05:24:09 but its just ... too many things in sencha are broken Sep 25 05:24:28 there are few different ways to do thigns and half of the ways are .. broken when you get in too far. Sep 25 05:24:36 huh, interesting Sep 25 05:24:52 ya, i wouldnt have thought it being open and fairly widely used it would be a little more solid. Sep 25 05:24:55 but no. Sep 25 05:25:15 plus developed by a comparably larger team Sep 25 05:25:45 like their MVC controller stuff is just kinda bolted on. no way to make it work with their used-just-about-everywhere tabbar/tabpanel component. Sep 25 05:27:15 and literally spent days trying to debug why applying a template to a component didnt work in some cases. Sep 25 05:27:42 took a different approach to creating components, flattened the entire navigation hierarchy .. now works. Sep 25 05:27:52 so ya, whatever. that kinda crap. Sep 25 05:28:03 good to know Sep 25 05:28:16 Eeeesh. Sep 25 05:28:41 their out of the box widgets do follow many of the iOS ones though, so that pleases the designers. Sep 25 05:29:11 even if enyo was open source, I'd have to write a bunch of stuff to mirror ios widgets. Sep 25 05:29:29 s/open source/freely distributable/ Sep 25 05:29:36 I feel like imitation is inviting comparisons to the native stuff Sep 25 05:29:41 there's def some gaps though Sep 25 05:29:45 working on that Sep 25 05:30:47 i agree - its tough to compete with native. Sep 25 05:31:17 just when they say " i want a list where the dividers pin to the top of the panel as you scroll thru" ... Sep 25 05:31:22 its nice when that just is .. there. Sep 25 05:31:23 so best to stay different in look/feel, focused on the strengths of web Sep 25 05:32:03 and they're only picking that type of functionality because they've seen it on ios or android. Sep 25 05:32:10 yeah Sep 25 05:33:04 good component system in enyo, so with a big enough eco system lots of ui variations could be built. Sep 25 05:33:26 yup Sep 25 05:33:35 it was built with a very big vision in mind Sep 25 05:33:49 While I generally like to follow a platform's UI conventions, it's hard to do with anything other than native widgets. Java spend over a decade trying to do that with little uptake. Sep 25 05:34:10 yup Sep 25 05:34:14 ... while Flash apps, ignoring all native UI, have been popular. Sep 25 05:34:19 ya, i agree its a dangerous path. totally buy into that argument. Sep 25 05:34:28 But I'm not sure that holds for productivity apps. Sep 25 05:34:39 there *will* be a cross-platform mobile web solution. or several. and most apps will migrate to it. it might take 10 years though Sep 25 05:34:52 Probably the same. GMail doesn't match native widgets anywhere. Sep 25 05:35:32 gmail also doesnt decide to just give you a differnet scrollbar ui either tho. Sep 25 05:36:53 are my arrows at the top? bottom? one on each? none at all? how does the bar size based on the page? hate that crap in flash. Sep 25 05:38:35 Yeah, that sucks. Sep 25 05:38:53 flash is soooooo done Sep 25 05:39:01 and adobe knows it Sep 25 05:39:09 I don't care about pixel-perfect match, I want stuff to WORK the way I expect. Sep 25 05:39:12 I think they are already making HTML5 tools Sep 25 05:39:15 they are Sep 25 05:40:01 Though, flash will always have a huge userbase Sep 25 05:40:13 always is a pretty bold statement Sep 25 05:40:29 well I should say compared to HTML5.... Sep 25 05:40:44 It was on the ground writhing in pain already when win8 just came along and shot it in the head Sep 25 05:40:45 I figure when 6 is drafted then the web should have the power to replace it Sep 25 05:40:59 as of now, HTML5 and JS cant completely replace flash Sep 25 05:41:34 Well Windows 8 did not, Windows 8 Metro Browser did, it is still avail in windows 8 desktop mode Sep 25 05:41:48 its days are numbered. new things coming out are leaving out flash. Sep 25 05:41:54 anything with flash that does not revert can open in desktop mode Sep 25 05:42:05 yes they are.... Sep 25 05:42:18 it is getting to the point though where you don't really need flash. That was not the case what, 18mo ago? Sep 25 05:42:33 That's lightning quick for that kind of shift. All due to the ipad Sep 25 05:43:09 iphone got the ball rolling Sep 25 05:43:13 yes but the quality of HTML5 apps vs. FLash is huge. thats all I am saying, however people are making the sacrifice so that doesnt even matter Sep 25 05:44:04 what I think will be interesting to watch is how PhoneGap does on the other platforms over the next 2-3 yrs. Sep 25 05:44:26 its the stopgap to what is ultimately the better model. Sep 25 05:44:44 yeah. I think even the phonegap guys would admit success for them means no more phonegap Sep 25 05:48:35 be interesting to see how that shapes up on the google side - android team vs. chrome team. Sep 25 05:49:27 Yeah, I don't see a way to integrate those efforts. Sep 25 05:50:01 But, a company that big can afford to persue multiple approaches simultaneously. Sep 25 05:50:17 sure. i was at MSFT. they do it all the time as well. Sep 25 05:50:33 At that scale, the key thing is to not miss the next big thing. Sep 25 05:50:33 just gonna be interesting to watch the struggle and eventual decision. Sep 25 05:51:32 its one thing to purse a couple options internally and then decide before you release. but different to yank your dev community back n forth. Sep 25 05:51:59 MS has been able to do that. It's hurt them, to be sure. Sep 25 05:52:07 chromeos is sooooo much more google. but android is winning by far. My guess is aspects of chromeos make it into android Sep 25 05:52:12 like a solid html5 app story Sep 25 05:56:07 * DougReeder nods Sep 25 05:56:09 The question is, does Windows 8 make it into devices like phones (like the atrix) and take back alot of android market share, if it can gain traction like windows usually does Sep 25 05:56:47 I dont see why you wouldnt put this on an arm 4.7" phone like the titan, throw a dock out there and call it a day. Sep 25 05:57:18 windows is no longer cool, or a brand most under 25 really care about Sep 25 05:57:42 so assuming they will gain traction might be untrue. We'll see. I think xbox is a more valuable brand for those who set trends Sep 25 05:57:48 I know it, they have a long road ahead with that one Sep 25 05:58:17 ya, they've done very well with xbox. took a while and dumped in a ton of cash, but it paid off. Sep 25 05:58:50 and at a good time - I use my xbox vastly more as a media center than I do a game machine now. Sep 25 05:58:58 They are kind of in this odd transition between bedfellows... like oh, your still here... I am trying to get with the newness.... Sep 25 05:59:32 For me it is like 90% one way or the other, depending on whether there is a game I love out. It is either my netflix machine, or my assassin's creed/fallout/madden machine Sep 25 05:59:56 microsoft isn't going to just throw out a market until they've blown a whole hell of a lot of money in it, so, they'll keep plodding along at the bottom of the market most likely Sep 25 06:00:22 mobile is the future. for msft its clearly just not an option to 'give up'. Sep 25 06:00:24 They think the nokia thing is going to help, but I don't see how. MS is hated in europe, Nokia is unknown in the US now Sep 25 06:00:59 I think you will see MS start taking the apple aproach, they almost have to if they want to start bringing in those huge margins Sep 25 06:01:13 until they run out of those mountains of cash, they'll keep going at it. Sep 25 06:01:18 with Hardware in house, but there will need to be a correct time for that Sep 25 06:01:27 they are pretty bad at hardware Sep 25 06:01:53 They could outright buy nokia, which is almost what they've done. Nokia is good at hardware. But I am still not sure where that gets them. Sep 25 06:04:06 So windows still outsells everything, basically just because its windows. What they need to do is get everyone to shift with it and build a new brand, maybe still windows, but something fresh. Sep 25 06:04:17 Windows 8 is the start of that, but it needs to be gradual Sep 25 06:04:41 Mobile will be a big part of the future. And some of what people do today with desktops or laptops will be done with mobile devices. But workstations of one form or another will always be important. Sep 25 06:05:01 problem is apple is destroying everyone with the next gen. And by that I mean both age and the next wave of tech Sep 25 06:05:17 any flight I take now, there are 4-5 ipads in surrounding rows Sep 25 06:05:37 Thats kind of where Windows 8 hits at though, the desktop is actually an app now on windows. So they refocus on content consumption (what people care about) and make that happen really well. They will be in good shape Sep 25 06:05:44 but its a huge dynamic shift for them Sep 25 06:05:52 they won't be able to shed the past Sep 25 06:06:08 WHo says they have to? Sep 25 06:06:12 the world is moving towards a place where having lots of windows on a screen will seem like an absurd concept Sep 25 06:06:29 And thats where metro ui for them comes in Sep 25 06:06:37 but it's just a skin right now Sep 25 06:06:43 no its not Sep 25 06:06:50 its on the OS level Sep 25 06:06:54 apple has done amazingly well, but we'll soon find out if it can be done with teh people there w/o jobs. Sep 25 06:06:54 it's an alt launcher Sep 25 06:06:58 Nah, one window at a time is simply a current fad. Sep 25 06:07:14 his brutal focus was key .. see if thats in everyonie else at the top there too still in a couple yrs. Sep 25 06:07:21 mattsmcnulty you clearly havent followed it... its much more than that. Sep 25 06:07:22 one window at a time with a good notification scheme is the future. Sep 25 06:07:25 I have Sep 25 06:07:35 rwatkins I thought you were referring to people being without "jobs" so they can't afford Apple products. ;-) Sep 25 06:07:50 When I'm writing an e-mail, I usually want another window up for info I'm consulting. Sep 25 06:08:11 EdLin: ha. Sep 25 06:08:12 Thats what metro brings, alt launcher maybe, but metro apps dont run in the background, if you need anything like that you need legacy and you need the desktop mode Sep 25 06:08:14 every kid growing up right now has iOS or its clones that they are using for almost everything. That model of interaction - full screen apps, saving of state, instant-on - that will be expected by them Sep 25 06:08:23 anything dealing with the metro ui is suspended Sep 25 06:08:35 those of us who want a bunch of windows and lots of things at once will be in the minority Sep 25 06:09:01 people will look at things like expose on mac as absurd - "wait, they had to do what to deal with all those crazy windows?" Sep 25 06:09:05 You clearly miss what windows 8 brings, but thats ok... it will continue to converge like it has. And you will have exactly that. Sep 25 06:09:24 I agree with the IOS point Sep 25 06:09:30 and S needs to get there fast Sep 25 06:09:34 win8 tablets will have exactly the same problem android and webos tablets have, once they finally come out Sep 25 06:09:35 s/s/ms Sep 25 06:09:40 mattsmcnulty yeah, it reminds me of the GUI, when Windows 3 came out I hated the idea and preferred DOS or my new Linux (kernel 0.95 at first) shell rather than the GUI, but it took over. Sep 25 06:09:56 apple left the bottom 80% of the market wide open on price when they were a premium product at a premium price Sep 25 06:10:01 the ipad changed that Sep 25 06:10:01 i think i hit this industry at the right time - I've been writing softwre for myself generally. in a bit down the road not so much. and for me, not as fun. Sep 25 06:10:06 mattsmcnulty same thing will happen with touch interfaces and the like Sep 25 06:10:10 suddenly they are premium product at a fairly cheap price Sep 25 06:10:58 win8 tablets will come out at similar price points as the bom dictates, and people will look at them, look at the apps, media, etc - and buy the similarly priced ipad Sep 25 06:11:38 yeah, and win8 ARM tablets won't be able to run the legacy desktop apps anyway. Sep 25 06:12:06 rwatkins: the market shifts every few years. I graduated in 99 and felt like I missed the dot com thing Sep 25 06:12:12 ARM Win8 will run any .net compiled app Sep 25 06:12:25 java will probably work as well once they get that squared away Sep 25 06:12:30 and .net is not a huge portion of the desktop market Sep 25 06:13:01 Many of your premium apps for windows have been compiled in .net or java Sep 25 06:13:58 i left college in 94, so certainly hit that dot com thing. but with Lion and others, the workstation sort of setup I use to create is goign to the wayside. Sep 25 06:14:30 it's all mobile and web. Microsoft sucks at both of those, so far Sep 25 06:14:36 anyways, I think windows 8 is the best chance against the Ipad that we will see Sep 25 06:15:03 Well they got IE10 right built in with W8 Sep 25 06:15:06 so its coming Sep 25 06:15:21 IE10 finally supports everything else I was lacking with HTML5 and CSS3 Sep 25 06:15:32 yeah, ie10 is decent Sep 25 06:15:34 All of my webOS dev is done in IE10 now Sep 25 06:15:45 though if I were CTO of MS, I would have made it webkit-based Sep 25 06:15:50 They were almost there with 9... Sep 25 06:15:53 but still lacked a few Sep 25 06:15:55 anyone still using IE would not know the diff, and devs would have loved it Sep 25 06:16:37 why though, there is no huge advantage now, with the new js engine that came with IE9 its still outperforming most webkit browsers Sep 25 06:16:44 something to be said for a common browser base - no matter how much IE supports, there are going to be niggling issues based on its history Sep 25 06:16:49 I guess it could save them dev costs Sep 25 06:16:52 sbigtime there Sep 25 06:17:06 there are huge differences still between webkit and IE in terms of compatibility Sep 25 06:17:12 Yes there are Sep 25 06:18:46 hangon, IE9 is basically in the same league, at least in terms of sunspider, but that generally means nothing Sep 25 06:18:46 done a few "native" apps on platforms using a browser rendering engine - MSFT too Sep 25 06:18:55 being able to focus on just one browser is nice. Sep 25 06:19:36 Yeah, I hate working on my website, because there I actually have to take into account different browsers. Sep 25 06:19:37 Yes, and if they adhere to the standards then it should work fine. Sep 25 06:19:52 neither google, microsoft, nor apple adhere to standards Sep 25 06:20:12 nope, but if we look at webOS now and IE10, my app runs perfect between them, except for node Sep 25 06:20:46 so thery have converged on a set of standards, does this mean that I need to use ms- and webkit- ... yes Sep 25 06:20:51 is it enyo? because IE10 doesn't do flexbox really Sep 25 06:20:59 they have an alt we haven't written to yet Sep 25 06:21:07 nope, enyo is slow and clunky, I stay away from that Sep 25 06:21:13 ha Sep 25 06:21:17 we also use phonegap for everything now Sep 25 06:21:20 thems fighting words Sep 25 06:21:24 lets do this Sep 25 06:21:35 ok, so phonegap masks the differences Sep 25 06:21:36 :) Sep 25 06:21:46 well yes and no Sep 25 06:22:01 and microsoft is a major investor in phonegap Sep 25 06:22:07 I basically turn phonegap off in IE10, and run the index file, and turn it back on before I package for the touchpad Sep 25 06:22:10 You certainly can't say that Enyo handles chaining and branching asynchronous activities as well as the Foundations library. Sep 25 06:22:31 and I was looking at that even the other day, I only really use that to help standardize some system calls for Android and IOS dev Sep 25 06:22:35 doug, please tell me you are not talking of futures Sep 25 06:22:42 Indeed I am. Sep 25 06:23:01 sigh. I'll tell you right now that that ensures we will not agree on almost anything related Sep 25 06:23:10 Futures are confusing, but Enyo has nothing comparable. Sep 25 06:23:22 because it is utterly unnecessary Sep 25 06:23:43 masking asynch calls as some synch chain is dangerous Sep 25 06:23:43 Well, you need to write demo code in Enyo that shows how to do those things. Sep 25 06:24:01 Futures don't make asynch look sync Sep 25 06:24:09 I unfortunately took over the framework world about 3mo too late to stop all that Sep 25 06:24:28 they make asynch easier to understand Sep 25 06:24:50 I will call attention to my previous statement that we will not agree on anything Sep 25 06:25:01 so we might as well agree to disagree now ;-) Sep 25 06:26:03 Write some examples in Enyo of multi-step asynchronous activities, and then you'll have something to talk about. Sep 25 06:26:10 ha Sep 25 06:27:19 it's waaaay too late on a saturday to write code ;-) Sep 25 06:27:26 I'm not saying tonight. Sep 25 06:27:32 I'll make an underling do that. It's a good point that it isn;t in the SDK samples Sep 25 06:29:48 Honestly though, what was the point behind Enyo... Really now you should just drop that and start pushing phonegap more, and add better OS level support for Javascript. Phonegap runs good on the Veer, Pre2/3, and Touchpad Sep 25 06:30:13 And its easy to scale or dynamically adapt yoru app based on screen size Sep 25 06:30:40 phonegap and enyo are not interchangeable things Sep 25 06:30:42 Enyo != PhoneGap Sep 25 06:30:48 I know that Sep 25 06:31:19 Its like saying "dont take the subway to work, use a book instead" Sep 25 06:31:23 lol Sep 25 06:31:24 like wtf? Sep 25 06:31:39 wtf Sep 25 06:31:43 :) Sep 25 06:31:58 and you build a framework that only works with a compatibility layer like that at the peril of always being the last to every single party Sep 25 06:33:43 they had to build the built in apps in something. even with phonegap you need a ui framework. Sep 25 06:33:56 mojo! Sep 25 06:34:03 *weep* Sep 25 06:34:28 Mojo was a time-consuming detour. Sep 25 06:34:30 the inventor of mojo isn't really talking to me these days Sep 25 06:34:34 Yeah I guess they do need a UI framwork ;) Sep 25 06:34:48 Of course, it would help if we knew where we were going... Sep 25 06:35:02 I enjoyed mojo enough at the time, but you hit a wall and better thigns come along Sep 25 06:36:10 And forking Prototype and never updating it didn't help. Sep 25 06:36:14 but then the public also never saw all the stuff that was apparently "mojo2" Sep 25 06:36:30 eh, it was public, just not publicized Sep 25 06:36:35 again, I was about 3mo too late Sep 25 06:36:41 I've been worried that Node was gonna be forked and we'd be stuck with 2.3 forever. Sep 25 06:37:01 yea! for node 0.4 Sep 25 06:37:07 nope, that was post-me, so we made sure that stayed sane Sep 25 06:37:32 No point in using an open-source framework unless you're going to stay current. Sep 25 06:37:38 yup Sep 25 06:37:39 of course all the thigns are called 'assistants' still .. Sep 25 06:38:36 ugh... so many assistants Sep 25 06:38:54 Too many assistants and not enough chiefs? Sep 25 06:39:00 sounds like it Sep 25 06:39:49 Are we gonna get re-orderable VirtualLists before the heat death of the universe? Sep 25 06:40:24 re-orderable infinite virtuallists is an incredibly hard problem Sep 25 06:40:33 non-infinite is fairly straight forward Sep 25 06:40:33 for enyo.... Sep 25 06:40:33 To be sure. Sep 25 06:40:49 it's on our...list Sep 25 06:41:08 ya, but you cant reorder it probably Sep 25 06:41:16 * DougReeder smiles Sep 25 06:41:24 well that list gets reordered on a daily basis Sep 25 06:41:32 because its not infinite? Sep 25 06:41:37 :) Sep 25 06:41:40 actually that one practically is Sep 25 06:41:40 Well, you're halfway there, then. :-) Sep 25 06:42:12 I havent implemented that part of the instapaper api because there was no ReorderableVirtualList Sep 25 06:42:27 but may take a swipe at it with the version posted to the forums. Sep 25 06:42:48 ok, I am struggling to keep my eyes open at this point Sep 25 06:43:10 I think he doesnt want to discuss reorderable lists anymore Sep 25 06:43:11 * DougReeder hands matsmcnulty his blankie and pillow Sep 25 06:43:23 I'll try not to be a stranger moving forward. Sep 25 06:43:29 i'm sure hes had that dicussion several times. knows it by heart. Sep 25 06:43:37 oh yes Sep 25 06:43:44 I am sure Sep 25 06:43:52 ok, night all Sep 25 06:43:57 night! Sep 25 06:43:58 'night Sep 25 07:00:42 arrgh! I missed mattsmcnulty Sep 25 07:06:29 * DougReeder waves goodnight Sep 25 07:35:48 * Hendikins ponders, will attempt to procure a plain back for the AT&T Pre3 when it arrives. Sep 25 08:28:18 Hendikins: why? just don't want the AT&T branding? Sep 25 08:57:38 rwhitby: Yeah, that. Sep 25 09:01:01 For the combined reasons of hating carrier branding to begin with and not showing that my phone is made out of pure unobtainium. Sep 25 09:01:33 Hendikins: I can probably do you a swap if you include a reply paid Sep 25 09:02:36 then I can put AT&T backs on both my dev devices and keep the other plain back for my real phone. less confusing that way. Sep 25 09:03:21 Sounds like a plan. Incidentally, do you have a non-ATT Veer floating around? Sep 25 09:03:36 yep, I can do a swap on that too Sep 25 09:03:54 (I think, let me check) Sep 25 09:04:01 Will discuss when not on train Sep 25 09:04:22 I wonder if the german Veer is branded .. cause apart from the O2 URL inside the browser I don't see any brandings... Sep 25 09:04:43 but german Veer is 2.1.1 so I can't install UberKernel D: Sep 25 09:06:28 Hendikins: yep, got a plain black veer back. what would you be swapping for it? Sep 25 09:06:41 ATT. Sep 25 09:06:49 black or white? Sep 25 09:07:59 Black Sep 25 09:08:09 ok Sep 25 09:12:33 That's better. Out of the City Underground. Sep 25 09:15:53 Whilst I'm at it, if you want/need any more Veer parts I can throw in the guts of my first Veer attached to the smashed screen of my second one. If I get around to that. Sep 25 09:19:18 Hendikins: oh, is the board ok? just the screen broken? Sep 25 09:19:40 The board is from the Veer I had to do the battery pull on. Sep 25 09:19:50 Might be interesting to poke at, would be gratis. Sep 25 09:20:17 Hmm - I might be able to make a working one out of that ... Sep 25 09:21:59 No back with it though, thanks to having broken the ribbon cable. Sep 25 09:22:13 Although you would have one from that bricked one anyway. Sep 25 09:23:58 yep Sep 25 09:25:08 Only reason I haven't swapped the screen over yet is a mix of shift work (CBF) and not feeling comfortable doing delicate stuff like that. Sep 25 09:27:20 Hendikins: feel free to leave them unattached in pieces Sep 25 09:27:29 (the bits you send me) Sep 25 09:29:50 Yeah, still have to mate the good screen and the board from Veer #2 though. Sep 25 09:30:00 right. Sep 25 09:34:36 anyone able to think of an especially good reason why the default behavior for VirtualRepeater should be false? Sep 25 09:34:49 er.. for *accelerated* setting on VirtualRepeater Sep 25 10:58:40 Note to self: Australia Post's e-mail notifications for parcel tracking are useless. My Pre3 is at Leightonfield NSW already. Sep 25 11:19:39 EricBlade, what is it? Sep 25 11:33:35 Out of interest, roughly how many ATT Pre3s made it out to the wild? Sep 25 11:41:46 with the android on pre project, will it physically run on my pixi plus? Sep 25 11:42:22 I see reports of bricking when using it on the pre+ Sep 25 11:42:42 I wouldn't be getting my hopes up. If they're targeting armv7 the Pixi can't run it at all. Sep 25 11:45:50 I get that Sep 25 11:46:13 just don't want to brick my pixi trying it Sep 25 11:52:42 so I'm going to presume doing that is a bad idea? Sep 25 11:52:42 Looks like it is armv7, so best advice is just don't try it. Sep 25 11:53:54 alright Sep 25 11:53:58 :( Sep 25 11:56:21 g Sep 25 11:56:25 A bit of general advice though: If you can't afford to brick the device, leave playing with highly experimental software to those who can. Sep 25 12:03:22 I can afford to brick it Sep 25 12:03:36 just I'd have to buy a new phone Sep 25 12:04:47 Still not a fan of the idea of potentially bricking ones primary device though. Sep 25 12:05:02 But in this case it is moot - the Pixi simply can't run it. Sep 25 13:28:24 i know this is the wrong channel, but it was the most palm OS related i could find. Where can i get the software and documents i need to get started with PalmOS programming? Sep 25 13:28:42 PalmOS :o Sep 25 13:28:46 yup Sep 25 13:28:56 i found my old palm zire Sep 25 13:29:01 may i ask why? Sep 25 13:29:24 because i am interested in old architecture Sep 25 13:29:35 and i discovered it has a 68k processor Sep 25 13:31:35 we can't kill flash until we figure out what to do with homestarrunner ok Sep 25 13:34:03 heh? Sep 25 13:37:35 sllide: sorry but i donno Sep 25 13:37:41 ah np Sep 25 13:58:05 sllide: look for prctools Sep 25 16:08:25 hey Sep 25 16:37:13 Jack87|Away: it is the setting that hardware accelerates them Sep 25 16:38:45 howdy Sep 25 16:39:23 gah.. pre2 just locked up while in spaz.. no novaterm, opt-sym-r.. :( (And I could never figure out that silent switch one..) Sep 25 16:39:49 oh jeepers it just took, that took a while to register! Sep 25 16:40:35 EricBlade: hardware accel is not always faster. Sep 25 16:40:38 and sometimes unstable. Sep 25 16:40:49 hi rwatkins Sep 25 16:41:21 hi Sep 25 16:41:52 rwatkins: we had a brief e-mail exchange a few weeks ago, but i just wanna say again, big fan of Paper Mache Sep 25 16:43:27 ah, ok. glad you're enjoying Paper Mache Sep 25 16:43:53 new beta version out last night with search. a better 'add articles' coming soon. Sep 25 16:44:07 touchpad isnt on hp's store anymore Sep 25 16:44:12 just the case, sold out kb and touchstone Sep 25 16:48:03 rwatkins: it is the default for all the other items that support it, contrary to what the documentation says .. anyway, curiosity got the better of me, last night, and i edited the copy of the enyo-build on my touchpad, and changed the virtual repeater to default to accelerated .. and apps that used to be just horrifically slow are smoking fast now .. except for app catalog Sep 25 16:48:33 wow Sep 25 16:48:42 EricBlade: are there instructions online for how to do that? Sep 25 16:49:04 i was playing around with VirtualRepeater the other week, the docs say it's only good for 200 or so elements Sep 25 16:49:21 if it's using a flyweight strategy, i don't understand why it wouldn't work infinitely Sep 25 16:49:42 i used one of the demos and tried 10000 rows, and the browser slowed to a crawl ;-P Sep 25 16:50:02 duncanm: i haven't seen anything, it was just an idea i had. there may possibly be something else at play that caused this (although the only other thing I did was install the PDK packages) .. and there may possibly be horrible side effects that i just haven't run into yet .. Sep 25 16:50:13 ahh Sep 25 16:50:19 like crashing luna? :) Sep 25 16:50:34 i wondered about all this patching that goes on - what will happen if/when HP releases an update to the OS? Sep 25 16:50:35 rwatkins: i do that quite easily without any modifications at all Sep 25 16:52:35 * duncanm learns about what Luna is - http://programming4.us/mobile/3158.aspx Sep 25 16:53:37 it looks like setting up a onActivated event for a card-window, and then using that to make a function call that calls a function in the windowless launcher for your app, can result in a total device crash. i haven't pared down my example case any farther, crashing and rebooting regularly on an intermittent issue, so spending hours trying to track it down, is not my idea of a good time Sep 25 16:59:51 dum de dum Sep 25 17:33:24 What is the latest version of webOS we have running on the pre 2 Sep 25 17:33:43 on sprint Sep 25 17:33:59 2.1 Sep 25 17:34:09 excellent Sep 25 17:34:41 (just updated my pre Sep 25 17:34:45 ) Sep 25 17:38:07 anyone know if the pptp plugin for vpn is available for webos 2.x? Sep 25 17:38:12 i know it's available for 3.x Sep 25 17:57:57 wow... http://www.ebay.com/itm/300603457138 Sep 25 18:47:19 * EricBlade wakes up again .. good lord lcars-clock is a seriously effective alarm clock Sep 25 19:33:51 [A3 Sep 25 19:33:53 Fuck. Sep 25 19:33:55 Sorry. Sep 25 20:00:53 anyone know how to fix facebook photos not loading on webos 2.x? Sep 25 20:01:11 i thought i saw an article about it a week or so ago, but i can't find it now Sep 25 20:04:51 HattCzech: remove the facebook account, re-add it, that's what I read to fix missing pictures anyway. Sep 25 20:05:11 Wife's touchpad is missing 'em since her dumbass computer is set to "download and remove" or something pictures on mass storage devices, so it did just that when I plugged it in. Sep 25 20:05:11 tried it twice... didn't work :( Sep 25 20:05:13 EricBlade: is the lcars-clock really that good? Sep 25 20:05:43 CTLAdvance|2: 2.1.0 officially Sep 25 21:03:31 http://t.co/Q9QJCCV Sep 25 21:03:48 heya PatrickC Sep 25 21:03:52 LOL Sep 25 21:03:57 hey Caleb Sep 25 21:06:05 how many people in here write for major blogs? just wondering Sep 25 21:06:14 not me Sep 25 21:06:26 dkirker! Sep 25 21:06:39 PatrickC! Sep 25 21:06:47 rrix! Sep 25 21:06:50 PatrickC: does anyone in here write for major blogs? Sep 25 21:06:56 * PatrickC does Sep 25 21:07:00 I wondered if anyone else did Sep 25 21:07:06 oh? which major blog? Sep 25 21:07:10 WOR Sep 25 21:07:15 and mobileRoundup Sep 25 21:07:57 did not know this Sep 25 21:08:18 very recent Sep 25 21:08:22 were you aware you're not listed on Other Contributors on WOR? Sep 25 21:08:25 oh, recent, fair enough Sep 25 21:08:44 I know I'm not listed :) Sep 25 21:08:56 I'm mobileRoundup first, WOR second as they are sister sites Sep 25 21:09:03 I work for both :P Sep 25 21:09:05 wor? Sep 25 21:09:08 * rrix remebers the days of writing for major blogs... Sep 25 21:09:24 * rrix looks wistfully Sep 25 21:09:33 Caleb: http://webosroundup.com Sep 25 21:09:49 * PatrickC thinks they should buy wor.com :P Sep 25 21:10:29 ahh got ya Sep 25 21:11:30 hi PatrickC Sep 25 21:11:58 how's Palm life? Sep 25 21:12:27 busy! Sep 25 21:12:31 lol Sep 25 21:13:05 I keep seeing things from webOS people being "we're so busy!" Sep 25 21:13:11 but I want to know what on :) Sep 25 21:13:51 I'm hoping on the awesome EA stuff :) Sep 25 21:18:27 dkirker: will Universe be getting an enyo update still? Sep 25 21:18:34 Advanced Browser is amazing Sep 25 21:18:53 in my experiences :) Sep 25 21:20:13 Yes Sep 25 21:20:18 I plan to work on it this week Sep 25 21:20:22 now that I have moved to Sunnyvale Sep 25 21:20:42 Alright, I need to run. ta ta! Sep 25 21:28:35 hey bshado Sep 25 21:37:30 Its quite dead in here today Sep 25 21:38:29 yeah Sep 25 21:39:41 I'm waiting for some cable so i can test using an external wifi card with the tp Sep 25 21:43:35 * PatrickC just emailed his MS guy back Sep 25 21:43:55 after over a month.. I still haven't heard back from someone I need to talk to Sep 25 21:44:04 my MS guy will fix this :P Sep 25 21:44:15 * PatrickC likes how webOS is a lot more organized then MS Sep 25 21:47:51 awesome EA stuff? Sep 25 21:48:12 * WinterMute genuflects and sprinkles holy water about the place Sep 25 21:48:42 WinterMute: shhhhhh.. no one is suppose to know about webOS 4.0! Sep 25 21:49:54 * WinterMute has worked for EA, it's not a lot of fun Sep 25 21:50:01 PatrickC Sep 25 21:50:09 webOS is alot more organized than any other mobile os Sep 25 21:50:30 PsWii60: I've found this out Sep 25 21:50:37 WinterMute: get me games.. free. now.. :P Sep 25 21:50:40 don’t single out wp7 Sep 25 21:50:54 lol Sep 25 22:09:22 WinterMute: what part of EA did you work for? Sep 25 22:11:32 damn, I come back to work on kismet some more and now it cant find ncurses Sep 25 22:11:49 wasn't directly, worked for some companies that wrote games for EA Sep 25 23:27:20 one of the beautiful ones they bought and killed? Sep 25 23:28:23 hopefully you were not one of the ones from EA that made EA horrible. Sep 25 23:29:16 * WinterMute blinks Sep 25 23:29:38 oh, indirectly. Sep 25 23:29:40 nevermind Sep 25 23:30:50 nobody ever reads the whole backscroll before chiming in any more :p Sep 25 23:33:16 I didn't even realize it had been over an hour Sep 26 00:27:56 o/ Sep 26 00:28:57 sooo I'm confused. Why would apple.com charge me tax, but amazon.com not? Sep 26 00:29:21 Tibfib_ amazon is cool like that Sep 26 00:29:25 just roll with it Sep 26 00:29:35 I think you are supposed to file the purchase if you don't pay tax for it Sep 26 00:29:43 butttt I don't pay taxes Sep 26 00:29:45 and be happy, since amazon is charging sales tax in CA starting sept 15 here :/ Sep 26 00:30:17 so I guess I'll buy my air on amazon Sep 26 00:30:32 13"? Sep 26 00:30:37 of course Sep 26 00:30:38 Tibfib_: you should send in the sales tax anyhow, even if you don't pay income taxes Sep 26 00:30:46 Tibfib_: because apple probably has an office at that location Sep 26 00:30:54 haeffb: awww Sep 26 00:30:58 s/at that location/in that state Sep 26 00:30:58 or physical presence Sep 26 00:31:02 Tibfib what size ssd Sep 26 00:31:03 so I might as well purchase of apple.com and pay the tax now Sep 26 00:31:07 in that state/province Sep 26 00:31:10 halfhalo: 126 Sep 26 00:31:14 or whatever the lower one is Sep 26 00:31:15 coo Sep 26 00:31:20 I just bought a 2TB external hd Sep 26 00:31:25 I said "should". as in legally. but almost no one does Sep 26 00:31:26 so I should be fine Sep 26 00:31:27 * halfhalo went and got the 256 for kicks Sep 26 00:31:43 why via apple.com Sep 26 00:31:56 sold out locally Sep 26 00:32:08 haeffb: ah Sep 26 00:32:20 do it amazon.com :S Sep 26 00:32:24 which one did u get particularly. Sep 26 00:32:34 13" air Sep 26 00:32:55 I'm a little weary of buying off amazon since it isn't exactly amazon Sep 26 00:32:58 but a fulfillment Sep 26 00:33:08 well not even that Sep 26 00:33:25 you know what fulfilment means right? Sep 26 00:33:30 amazon's stock. amazon's warehouse. Sep 26 00:33:32 amazon sends it out. Sep 26 00:33:48 wait. theres even one directly by amazon Sep 26 00:34:00 and has Amazon prime :D Sep 26 00:34:01 eighthree: right, it's not fulfillment Sep 26 00:34:07 eighthree: that ships in 1-2 months. Sep 26 00:34:41 out yeah true story :B Sep 26 00:35:11 developer.palm.com down. nice. Sep 26 00:35:23 I think I'll just buy via apple.com. I like the guaranteed shipping date. Sep 26 00:35:38 and be a good tax-paying citizen. Sep 26 00:35:43 and that Sep 26 00:35:48 you'll sleep better Sep 26 00:35:54 definitely Sep 26 00:36:06 I'm about to spend more money on a single thing than I ever have before. Sep 26 00:36:52 nyc apt > car > engagement ring > computer Sep 26 00:37:43 heh I'm getting there Sep 26 00:38:00 of course the biggest one was mostly someone else's money. Sep 26 00:38:13 atleast for the next 29 yrs. Sep 26 00:53:29 gosh dangit Sep 26 00:53:42 request was denied by my bank Sep 26 00:55:14 btwbbq Sep 26 00:55:31 wts: qwerty pre 3 (uk) @ $450 and $400 Sep 26 00:55:36 shipped in the us for free Sep 26 00:55:37 ;B Sep 26 00:56:37 but it approved my $30 test purchase Sep 26 00:58:14 pretty expensive @ 450$ D: ... Sep 26 00:58:37 what price are you looking for divStar Sep 26 00:58:38 :p Sep 26 00:59:59 who knows :p Sep 26 01:00:06 lol Sep 26 01:00:07 .. Sep 26 01:00:28 protip: don't use an exhibition mode app with audio. Sep 26 01:15:26 no? I was just thinking it'd be nice to have that feature in dr podder Sep 26 01:17:33 Loudergood: the audio keeps playing after you quit exhibition. i learnt this the nyan way. Sep 26 01:18:20 ah lol Sep 26 01:22:45 that could work if you can trigger notification based controls Sep 26 01:29:12 is there a mousedown event Sep 26 01:29:17 or just click and hold? Sep 26 01:30:03 you can listen for mousedown using standard js Sep 26 01:31:13 "something".addEventListener? Sep 26 01:31:37 yes Sep 26 01:32:03 What are you working on, secret project? Sep 26 01:32:06 what exactly is the syntax of that, i never seem to get it to work Sep 26 01:32:15 CTLAdvance|2, all js rooted terminal Sep 26 01:32:27 nice Sep 26 01:32:30 i need to recreate a vkb cause the webos one is inadequate Sep 26 01:32:41 so i need to figure out how to do corded keys Sep 26 01:32:43 like shift and ctrl Sep 26 01:32:50 agh Sep 26 01:34:11 so would I do it like this.$.mybutton.addEventListener... Sep 26 01:34:34 that ties it to the kind, not the node. Sep 26 01:35:11 why do i not want it on the node? Sep 26 01:35:24 { kind: "Control", onmousedown: "mousedownHandler" } Sep 26 01:35:40 you do - there is no "addEventListener" method to kinds. Sep 26 01:35:44 i didnt onmousedown listed for buttons :/ Sep 26 01:35:56 didnt see... Sep 26 01:36:34 enyo.control - "onmousedown" Sep 26 01:36:47 https://developer.palm.com/content/api/reference/enyo/enyo-api-reference.html#enyo.Control Sep 26 01:37:36 and in the docs for buttons it indicated thats an inherited event Sep 26 01:37:50 https://developer.palm.com/content/api/reference/enyo/enyo-api-reference.html#enyo.Button Sep 26 01:37:58 thanks Sep 26 01:38:13 np Sep 26 01:39:53 but i dont seem to be getting those events :/ Sep 26 01:41:40 dunno - I've only ever used mousehold and it works. Sep 26 01:49:10 hmm, no issues with this in standard JS Sep 26 01:49:41 does anyone know if image mapping works on the touchpad? Sep 26 01:49:50 riskish2: no, it doesnt Sep 26 01:50:01 that explains my issues. lol Sep 26 01:51:04 i hear its "on the list" but didnt come up because they're so little used these days. Sep 26 01:56:31 oops Sep 26 01:56:41 i think only added the callback to 1 of the shift buttons :D Sep 26 02:06:22 you know what would be awesome? Sep 26 02:06:32 an application pc/mac Sep 26 02:06:38 that would allow you to edit your contacts :p Sep 26 02:06:50 its too slow via the contacts app Sep 26 02:06:54 it's called google contacts Sep 26 02:06:58 then sync Sep 26 02:07:32 rwhitby: wrong. not when you have contacts that are associated with each other via other accounts Sep 26 02:07:44 I'm having to "link more profiles" Sep 26 02:08:01 or fix links manually that weren't either linked or improperly linked.. Sep 26 02:08:05 oh, that's never going to happen off-device Sep 26 02:08:08 google contacts does not do that :? Sep 26 02:08:18 i know ~ it would be nice tho :P Sep 26 02:08:28 since its super laggy for some reason Sep 26 02:08:30 since it won't have the db8 identifiers to work with. Sep 26 02:09:06 its just frustratingly laggy.. Sep 26 02:09:11 even just to scroll **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 26 02:59:56 2011