**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 17 03:00:00 2017 Dec 17 15:19:20 Morning Dec 17 15:44:16 The next meeting of the webOS is a 1700 GMT (in roughly 1 hour & 15 mnutes). The Agenda is here. Dec 17 15:44:19 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-users-online-meet-up-post3452209.html#post3452209 Dec 17 16:29:49 30 mins to go... Dec 17 16:30:27 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-4.html#post3452209 Dec 17 16:45:30 15mins... Dec 17 17:01:24 Hello everybody. I'll be chairing the meeting to day. As usual, if there is anyone here attending for the first time, introduce yourself with a brief webOs-related biography. Everyone else can say hi also if you want. Dec 17 17:02:10 Here's the agenda for this meeting: http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-4.html#post3452209 Dec 17 17:03:14 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees. Dec 17 17:04:15 Is it just me again? Dec 17 17:04:22 I'm here as well Dec 17 17:04:50 I'm reading but have nothing to say probably Dec 17 17:05:04 Good. It will be a short one! ;-) Dec 17 17:05:34 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group Dec 17 17:06:03 what exactly are our aims and rules? Dec 17 17:06:05 :P Dec 17 17:07:04 We don't formally have any, so propose away! Obviously, 'Maintaining Legacy webOS'... maybe a bit of LuneOS support in the future. Dec 17 17:07:37 well, for the WebOS App Museum we defined it as followed: http://www.banneret.nl/webos/_temp/app-museum_2017-12-11_184659.png Dec 17 17:08:52 I was thinking that these meetings are open to all, but we might need to vote on some things. I thought anyone who'd done some work on a user group project could be definied as a member and entitled to vote. Dec 17 17:09:31 currently we don't have anyone trolling us. So basically I'd say if anyone is interested then their vote counts. Dec 17 17:10:00 this may of course be subject to change in the future Dec 17 17:11:06 But I like the open nature for now Dec 17 17:11:49 Yes... That's kind of why i suggest it. It may only be relevant in future if people start popping up asking for this or that fix. I think even in the forseeable future, it's unlikely. The hope is also that membership has a slight bit of er... kudos to it, so might encourage some to contribute. Dec 17 17:12:49 I just thought I'd put something forward as this item is usually just passed over. I agree that it's not too important at this stage. Shall we move on? Dec 17 17:13:57 Hi, JVLebbink Dec 17 17:14:11 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts. Dec 17 17:15:01 Good Evening Dec 17 17:15:30 Again, this bit is usually passed over, but I thought we could suggest some roles. Certain people will have certain expertise or at least enthusiasm and could over see certain areas. Dec 17 17:16:18 Examples might be: App development, system patching, documentation. Dec 17 17:16:36 How many people are in today's meeting? - how many do we need to assign roles? Dec 17 17:17:14 Me! Dec 17 17:17:14 At the moment we have projects to be getting on with. This is just looking forward. Do you wish to move on? Dec 17 17:17:30 I'd prefer to move on for now. Dec 17 17:17:42 maybe in the future when certain things have chrystalized Dec 17 17:17:43 JVLebbink: What roles do you want? Dec 17 17:18:00 Or are you just saying you're present? Dec 17 17:18:19 ... Dec 17 17:18:24 4. Progress reports Dec 17 17:18:34 I'm just in the meeting Dec 17 17:18:37 4.1. New browser for TP only. (nizovn) Dec 17 17:19:00 I'm home alone with the 2 little ones so have little time to pay attention here :'( Dec 17 17:19:00 I'm guessing nothing to report here and... is nizovn present? Dec 17 17:19:19 I'm not sure we should assign roles. Sometimes people like to do something and sometime they don't Dec 17 17:19:24 depends on the project Dec 17 17:19:30 Nothing much to update from my side, been a manic month in all regards so little free time. Dec 17 17:20:06 Herrie|TP: No worries. I'm expecting we will all report not having done much and wait until next year Dec 17 17:20:11 Pre, does it make sense to follow the agenda, or just give an update on what we've done? Dec 17 17:20:47 Some seem to be logged in. I'll just get through as fast as possible. Dec 17 17:20:57 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap) Dec 17 17:21:17 4.2. Still haven't had time to work on a phone version for the patch. Dec 17 17:21:30 OK. Moving on... Dec 17 17:21:32 (even though I regularly use the TP version) Dec 17 17:21:46 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) Dec 17 17:22:18 I'm guessing this is still in 'slow progress' mode? Dec 17 17:22:55 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia) Dec 17 17:23:15 I think Mazzinia was looking into this. Haven't done anyone on it myself. Dec 17 17:23:17 Research stage? Dec 17 17:23:19 OK Dec 17 17:23:38 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Preemptive) Dec 17 17:24:20 I should get my name off that and add Herrie's. It was novaldex reviewing Herrie's code i think Dec 17 17:24:55 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive) Dec 17 17:25:28 Nothing here. I'll try chasing up the site admins - I guess in the new year Dec 17 17:25:42 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections) Dec 17 17:25:59 I'd like to tidy this up a bit... Dec 17 17:26:07 I've been backing up: https://kylemaas.github.io/luna-sysmgr/ Dec 17 17:26:19 (making use the search works takes some time) Dec 17 17:26:32 Oh, great! Dec 17 17:26:41 but it's a nice resource when working with the services Dec 17 17:27:11 4.7.1. Use the webOS internals wiki for technical information. (novaldex, Preemptive, bbito & Shuswap) Dec 17 17:28:08 As the wiki is fixed, I'm going to roll it into item 4.7 from now on. It's working and available for updates and additions. Dec 17 17:28:27 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj) Dec 17 17:28:46 kylemaas is around sometimes bit he seems to come and go in the #webos-ports channel Dec 17 17:28:46 Misj: Would you say you have collected all this now? Dec 17 17:28:59 I'm sure there's stuff out there that I'm not aware of. Dec 17 17:29:15 Herrie: Oh, maybe he will be interested to help out? Dec 17 17:29:29 But whenever I search something on Google that I need, Banneret always turns up on top. Dec 17 17:29:44 Misj: That's a good sign. Dec 17 17:30:02 Yes (and it's weird...seeing 'myself' turn up on google) Dec 17 17:30:20 :-0 Dec 17 17:30:42 4.7.3. git.webos-internals.org has gone for a long time, so maybe some sources of preware apps are lost.. would be nice to recover it too (likely solution in post 15). https://github.com/wosigh (Herrie) Dec 17 17:31:25 This is another that i think is at least backed up, so perhpas we can roll it up into the main documentation project. Perhaps it needs a place to live##? Dec 17 17:33:18 ... OK, we'll cover that later. Dec 17 17:33:29 4.7.4. On device Help System Dec 17 17:33:47 I think this is er... dormant... Dec 17 17:33:57 4.7.5. Old domains associated with webOS. (Preemptive) Dec 17 17:34:23 Do you want to reregister old domains? Dec 17 17:35:47 I think we agreed not to bother much with old domains. I still have webOSCenter.com, which currently points at pivotCE. I think i suggested it as a domain for app development tutorials, which i think is your area Misj. Would it be of use to you? Do you aim to host at your site or look for other options? Dec 17 17:36:17 currently I'm keeping it on my site. Dec 17 17:36:25 pc-world: I did a couple. Obviously, palm.com is out... Dec 17 17:36:37 But I'm thinking about having a dedicated site for the webosMuseum Dec 17 17:37:44 If real notable ones come up and are affordable, maybe. I used cheap introductory offers, and now the price is up a bit. It's fine if they are useful, but... it silly to hold domains for no good reason Dec 17 17:38:12 Misj: Well I can point weboscenter at one of your domains if you want. Dec 17 17:39:07 This is something I'm thinking about for the future. For now it's available. In the future we might want a more 'obvious' location maybe Dec 17 17:39:34 https://pivotce.com/2016/11/17/webos-center-gone-but-not-forgotten/ Dec 17 17:39:46 OK. let's move on Dec 17 17:40:01 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive) Dec 17 17:40:34 Me again. No progress. I dount I'll get much traction to be honest, but I'll follow it up Dec 17 17:40:47 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1) Dec 17 17:41:04 JVLebbink1: Any news? Dec 17 17:41:11 Are you aware of the catalog feed dump posted here? http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/331300-pivotce-public-ftp-webos-app-rescue-effort-available-now-torrent-soon.html#post3447818 Dec 17 17:41:26 it could be used to create a webOS feed from the FTP with proper descriptions, app titles etc. Dec 17 17:41:38 No much progress. We're busy with some bugfixing Dec 17 17:42:00 we have contact with Allen and Herrie Dec 17 17:42:16 pc-world: Yes, but I think we agreed it has to be unofficial for copyright reasons Dec 17 17:42:51 Those apps do not have explicit permission form the owners for redistribution Dec 17 17:42:57 (webOS feed -> Preware feed) Dec 17 17:43:46 We are also indexing these applications Dec 17 17:43:47 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/331300-pivotce-public-ftp-webos-app-rescue-effort-available-now-torrent-soon.html#post3447818 Dec 17 17:43:55 We might assume no one cares, then catch some flak. Unlikely, but no one can afford any difficulties Dec 17 17:43:57 and planing to send some additional apps to Allen Dec 17 17:44:32 We are trying to be as careful as possible in the new application Dec 17 17:45:05 The application can handle FTP connections and HTTP locations these are not fixed Dec 17 17:45:34 it will require Preware to install an app from said (custom) location Dec 17 17:45:35 OK. I suppose we could make a fresh effort to contact devs and secure permissions. I know there was the occasional, "No". in the past, but i suspect most would be amenable Dec 17 17:45:37 Screenshots haven't changed much since last time Dec 17 17:45:38 http://www.banneret.nl/webos/_temp/ Dec 17 17:46:00 since we're not hosting apps ourselves Dec 17 17:46:05 or even (hard) linking to apps Dec 17 17:46:24 (users will have to specify their 'personal' backup location) Dec 17 17:46:32 Not sure if I was clear, the post I linked to contains files with app IDs, descriptions etc. One could make a script that matches these with the ipks found in the FTP, and create a Preware feed with that. No app development needed Dec 17 17:46:35 I must say it looks very good Dec 17 17:47:03 I would rather spend time on helping Alan find more apps that haven't been backuped yet. Dec 17 17:47:08 pc-world: Yes, as far as I understand it that is what the project is doing Dec 17 17:47:24 indexing for a feed or links Dec 17 17:47:25 pc-world Dec 17 17:47:38 well, we're not creating a preware feed. Dec 17 17:47:49 pcworld: I shared all dumps, ipks & images with Misj and JVLebbink ;-) Dec 17 17:47:58 Sorry, to the museum Dec 17 17:48:15 Herrie|TP: ok, so you've also got a dump of screenshots? That's nice Dec 17 17:48:21 we feel it would be better to keep preware on it's own to make sure that project will not be affected by negative news. Dec 17 17:48:47 screenshots are currently hosted on Palm CDN. This will require a preinst script that adds to the hosts file (and I have to look into that). Dec 17 17:48:49 pc-world: I dumped all there was to dump ;-) Dec 17 17:48:56 Images, reviews Dec 17 17:49:07 cool Dec 17 17:49:08 But the screenshots are actually not hosted by us. Dec 17 17:49:16 @Herrie: GBs of them :) Dec 17 17:49:35 a Preware feed wouldn't need to be added by default, but I guess a new app wouldn't hurt either Dec 17 17:50:13 In some respects, the museum could evolve into a new app catalogue... maybe? Dec 17 17:50:27 pc-world: The issue with feed is that Internals isn't happy with it Dec 17 17:50:48 So there was decided to go the separate app route Dec 17 17:51:02 ok, didn't know there are still people behind Internals Dec 17 17:51:29 pc-world: Well a few Dec 17 17:51:49 pc-world: We're in the world of OSS. Breaching copyright kind of breaks the GPL Dec 17 17:51:58 well, we tried to keep the words 'catalog', 'store', and anything else related to commerical goals as far away from the museum as possible. Dec 17 17:52:17 The app museum currently also contains a lot of information about the apps.....maybe a future version could be a app catalogue, or a totally other app could. At the moment there are no new apps to add and Internals could be used for non-paid apps Dec 17 17:52:46 Again, we could have a big push to contact devs and secure permissions to host apps, but it's a big effort. Dec 17 17:53:17 Shall we move on? Dec 17 17:53:29 one idea we have for future development (still as a vague idea) to include the zombie-app-list and being able to set it from the app. Or download metadata.json files (and show which are useful for which apps). Maybe even links to patches. Dec 17 17:54:15 regarding contacting developers...why would they say 'yes'? Dec 17 17:54:50 Interesting... the zombie list is only partly for missing apps - it's mostly when external sources or API changes that make them useless. Sometime patchable, sometimes not Dec 17 17:54:51 (and again: we're not hosting the apps ourselves. We don't even link to them) Dec 17 17:55:36 @pre, yes, but it would be nice to see in the museum whether apps have gone zombie Dec 17 17:56:00 Misj: Most dev's contacted in the past have been favourable and said yes - either hosting apps them selves, submitting them to the WN gallery or even to pivotCE Dec 17 17:58:02 The reality is that no one is going to make any real money now. The only problem is if you had say, a Mickey Mouse app and Disney decided to protect it's IP by going after anything connected to redistributing the app. They're not making monry and no on eelse is, but it might be done to discourage everybody else and could harm related projects possibly Dec 17 17:59:12 The trouble with getting permissions is actually finding people who can say yes - or who even still have the old IPKs or source Dec 17 17:59:35 Obviously, there is now an archive,,, Dec 17 18:00:28 I also consider this project 'web acheology' like the internet archive. But my opinion may differ from that of an EA. ;) Dec 17 18:00:55 Misj: Yes, but you have that arm's length hopefully... Dec 17 18:01:02 ..by not hosting Dec 17 18:01:20 Shall we move on? Dec 17 18:01:52 yep Dec 17 18:02:28 Hmmm... no i think, why not submit the Archive to.. archive.org ? Dec 17 18:02:30 5. Discussion of other items Dec 17 18:02:46 5.1. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate) Herrie? Dec 17 18:03:22 http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331734-network-time-not-keeping-clocks-accurate.html#post3452208 Dec 17 18:04:36 As you see, Herrie has some code he thinks works, but wants to test. We have volunteers ready for wider testing Dec 17 18:07:16 eagerly awaiting the results :) Dec 17 18:08:03 I guess Herrie is busy with the kids. Hopefully, we can begin a test programme in the new year when Herrie is satisfied his code works. Dec 17 18:08:13 5.3. Default apps: Can we patch the system to give us more default options? (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) (see post 69) Dec 17 18:09:29 A bit of usefull discussion on the main thread here. It seems apps require some code regarding MIME types and the system should automatically list them as possible default apps. Dec 17 18:09:34 we will be looking into setting the museum as a default app when using an app-catalog link. But that's all I have to say about this (and it's a very low priority addition) Dec 17 18:11:14 I've suggested that 'someone' write a tutorial on what code to put in an app for it to be registered. As old apps (e.g. Youtube >> Lunetube) get replaced, this kind of system integration is important for a smooth experience. Dec 17 18:12:08 Grabber5.0 points out that it's more complex than say the header line to resize apps for the Pre3. Dec 17 18:12:17 5.4. Krack hack Dec 17 18:12:33 http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-discussion-lounge/331848-krack-hack-fix-webos.html Dec 17 18:12:36 Oh, and I notices I couldn't get the 'default app' working when dealing with FTP. I found somewhere - but can't remember where - that it only works for file:// and http:// Dec 17 18:12:52 (but I might be mistaken...) Dec 17 18:13:29 The consensus seem to be that this is fixable, much like the OSSL fix. No idea who might do it though... Dec 17 18:14:19 I think this item should stay for a while in the hope a friendly developer notices and does it for us! ;-) Dec 17 18:14:32 5.5. App stores discussion. Dec 17 18:15:03 I think we've covered this above. I'm not aware of any other projects and it remains a long term hope. Dec 17 18:15:16 5.6. Can we document any hardware upgrades for legacy devices to increase or prolong their function? Dec 17 18:16:43 One role in the group we could have is 'Hardware expert'. We've had new batteries manufactured, it's possible to swap modems for true 4G on the TP and Goerge Mari has experimented with RAM upgrades Dec 17 18:16:57 *George Dec 17 18:17:58 I'm still afraid to ever having to open up my touchpad should be battery die... Dec 17 18:18:03 There's not much in the way of H/W upgrades available, but it might be worth making a list of what's viable. Dec 17 18:18:14 Yes, are TP batteries still obtainable? Dec 17 18:19:52 :-$ Dec 17 18:19:56 Maybe I should do this as another 'list' thread - just to group it together and keep a bit of interest up. If major upgrades become necessary, then that's pretty much game over for most users, but hopefully we'll all be using LuneOS by then Dec 17 18:20:12 Move on? Dec 17 18:20:26 move on. Dec 17 18:20:29 6. Any other business. Dec 17 18:20:35 ... Dec 17 18:20:40 ... Dec 17 18:20:42 I've sorta kinda patched Bing maps Dec 17 18:20:44 that was fun Dec 17 18:20:45 :P Dec 17 18:21:16 (yes I'm very proud of that ;) ) Dec 17 18:21:26 Oh, yes! Is it 'done'? Or does it need more refinement? Do you want testers? Dec 17 18:21:50 Well, there are things not working. But basic functionality is back. Dec 17 18:21:59 And I don't think I will spend any more time on it. Dec 17 18:22:14 I'm curious if someone else than nizovn is working on Qt apps Dec 17 18:22:15 (of course someone (else) should upgrade it to Bing V.8) Dec 17 18:22:35 I remeber I added it to the service pack, so it should go in the meta-doctor if you ask me. Dec 17 18:23:09 maybe a Qt app tutorial for webos would be interesting Dec 17 18:23:17 pc-world: I don't think so except on the LuneOS side... Dec 17 18:23:58 Misj: Bing V8. We can try to publicise it to see if anyone wants to try. Dec 17 18:23:59 I'm not a C-programmer myself, but there might be apps out there that could be relevant to us as well that are written in Qt Dec 17 18:24:30 and with a tutorial maybe someone would want tot try. Dec 17 18:24:49 Misj. Qt tutorial... I expect they already exist, so you mean webOS specific Qt... Dec 17 18:24:59 yes, webOS specific Dec 17 18:25:06 I've got a few patches for the webOS Qt plugin, but if no one else needs them I'm not in a hurry to polish them up Dec 17 18:26:02 pc-world: That's good to know. Is anyone managing that plugin? Nizovn? Herrie? Dec 17 18:26:07 nizovn is Dec 17 18:26:34 what does the plugin entail? Dec 17 18:26:55 (in a very short summary) Dec 17 18:26:56 well, it makes Qt apps render on webOS, touch/keyboard events etc. Dec 17 18:27:01 pc-world: If you haven't already, maybe post to the Qupzilla thread (or was there a Qt specific thread?) Dec 17 18:27:15 ok Dec 17 18:27:32 one of my patches enables native clipboard in Qt, so that the clipboard is shared with the webOS one Dec 17 18:27:47 That is nice :) Dec 17 18:28:02 I know Qupzilla has problems with drop down menu's - don't know if it's the framework plugin or the app itself. Dec 17 18:28:35 pc-world: A clipboard would make A LOT of difference! Dec 17 18:29:27 So annoying when I can't paste links in Qupzilla. Dec 17 18:30:12 Stupid question: do the Qt apps also work on luneOS? - or would they require a different build? Dec 17 18:30:29 (again, Qt and C is not my expertise) Dec 17 18:30:37 though with my solution you still need a keyboard shortcut to trigger it (Ctrl-C/X/V), have only tested on a Pre 3 so far, I suppose you would need a Bluetooth keyboard for it to work on the TouchPad Dec 17 18:31:50 pc-world: I have no BT KB, so happy to test on a TP with the onscreen KB... Dec 17 18:32:14 Misj: not sure, but I guess you need a different build since we currently need to hardcore a path to a new ld.so in the executable Dec 17 18:32:53 Preemptive: TP onscreen keyboard doesn't have any special keys (like Ctrl/Alt) afair Dec 17 18:33:01 ok Dec 17 18:33:13 s/hardcore/hardcode Dec 17 18:33:37 Oh... you're right - no gesture area to modify... Dec 17 18:34:54 If you want, I can make the Qt plugin one of the projects, but it seems you are on the fence a bit about whether to do much on this Dec 17 18:35:29 well, nizovn is the one who has done all the work on the Qt plugin so far, I've been only playing around with it Dec 17 18:35:32 so no need from my side Dec 17 18:36:08 OK. we'll park it for now. It seems like good work you are both doing there though. Dec 17 18:36:10 Shall we wrap it up with a date for January Dec 17 18:36:14 ? Dec 17 18:36:41 ok...14th? 21th? Dec 17 18:37:19 I won't be in on the 14th....buy won't be doing much this month either Dec 17 18:37:29 21st then? Dec 17 18:38:06 I think the 21st is fine with em Dec 17 18:38:08 me Dec 17 18:38:56 Most will be celebrating Christmas i guess and then recovering in January, so a bit later in the month makes sense. Dec 17 18:39:22 So if there are no objections, 21st January 2018 1700GMT. OK? Dec 17 18:39:23 ha ha Dec 17 18:39:41 21st is good Dec 17 18:41:34 There was more going on at this meeting than I expected. It's great that people are still working on things. Hopefully the other projects will get a bit of a bump in the new year. Thanks everyone for showing up. Have a great holiday! See you here next year or on the forums! Dec 17 18:42:15 'til next year! Dec 17 18:42:26 ;-) Bye all! Dec 17 18:44:34 bye **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 18 03:00:01 2017