**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 18 03:00:01 2018
Feb 18 16:58:11 <Preemptive> Good Morning! The agenda for today is here: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-5.html#post3452841
Feb 18 16:59:01 <Preemptive> If everyone has done as much as I have, we should rattle through this with nothing to report! ;-)
Feb 18 17:00:26 <novaldex> morning Preemptive! made it this month..
Feb 18 17:01:06 <Preemptive> OK, let's begin. Say hello if you are here and give us a short, webOS related introductin of yourself if you are new
Feb 18 17:01:08 <nizovn> morning
Feb 18 17:01:32 <novaldex> i'll apologize now for synergybot, still haven't resolved it
Feb 18 17:01:43 <novaldex> hide join/leave messages in your client if you can, it'll help
Feb 18 17:01:57 <Preemptive> I think I've learned to ignore it.
Feb 18 17:03:13 <Preemptive> So 3 of us?
Feb 18 17:04:30 <Preemptive> OK... a quick one! Stop me if you have anything for items 2 & 3 or I'll jump to reports.
Feb 18 17:04:54 <Preemptive> 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees. (done I think)
Feb 18 17:05:05 <Preemptive> 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group
Feb 18 17:05:16 <Preemptive> 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts.
Feb 18 17:05:23 <Preemptive> 4. Progress reports
Feb 18 17:05:33 <Preemptive> 4.1. New browser (for TP only). (nizovn)
Feb 18 17:05:41 <Preemptive> http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331764-tp-qupzilla.html
Feb 18 17:06:33 <nizovn> not much to report here, i split qupzilla into separate packeges, it's almost done
Feb 18 17:06:50 <nizovn> but it seems webos-internals feed is not an option for release
Feb 18 17:07:11 <nizovn> so i would need help with pivotce feed for dependencies
Feb 18 17:07:16 <Preemptive> nizovn: Is there a reason why?
Feb 18 17:07:29 <Preemptive> (webOS Internals)
Feb 18 17:07:42 <nizovn> Preemptive: no one replied me in #webos-internals channel
Feb 18 17:07:47 <novaldex> nizovn: I saw your message in webos-internals, but did you get a response?
Feb 18 17:07:53 <novaldex> ah, question answered..
Feb 18 17:07:58 <nizovn> :)
Feb 18 17:08:03 <novaldex> it's a tricky one I think, because of the codecs
Feb 18 17:08:08 <nizovn> yup
Feb 18 17:08:19 <novaldex> i'm afraid i'm not in a position to answer for you unfortunately
Feb 18 17:08:36 <Preemptive> Perhaps the codecs could be linked to  / kept separately?
Feb 18 17:08:48 <novaldex> it's a thought
Feb 18 17:09:07 <novaldex> I was also thinking, there's an email address on the internals website you could send your question to? I think that's how I got involved originally..
Feb 18 17:09:07 <nizovn> i'm not sure, seems they are built into qtwebengine
Feb 18 17:09:29 <Preemptive> Also twitter: @webos-internals
Feb 18 17:09:39 <nizovn> ok
Feb 18 17:11:09 <Preemptive> nivozn: If that is the case, does that also contravene webOS Ports policy? They (i.e. you two) use qtwebengine for LuneOS
Feb 18 17:11:32 <nizovn> well, good question
Feb 18 17:11:47 <novaldex> one for Herrie/Tofe, as they're doing the compiling
Feb 18 17:12:08 <Preemptive> Herrie is often around later...
Feb 18 17:13:04 <Preemptive> Regarding other issues, I've asked the question of our admin (Pattyland) at pivotCE about the dependency issue, but no reply as yet.
Feb 18 17:13:30 <mazzinia> oh hello
Feb 18 17:14:17 <Preemptive> The other thing mentined at the last meeting was that as the Qt allows other apps to be developed for webOS, should we make that a separate project to encoutrage others to contribute (like pc-world)
Feb 18 17:14:23 <Preemptive> ?
Feb 18 17:14:35 <Preemptive> mazzinia: Hi
Feb 18 17:15:19 <mazzinia> mmm I think that if the qt framework could be put in a shared location, others could then take advantage of it
Feb 18 17:15:20 <novaldex> nizovn: i've just given some others a nudge towards your question as well
Feb 18 17:15:33 <nizovn> novaldex: thanks
Feb 18 17:15:56 <nizovn> Preemtive: yes, ideally we could make something like Qt SDK for webOS
Feb 18 17:16:10 <nizovn> with tutorial how to build simple qt apps from source
Feb 18 17:16:34 <Preemptive> nivozn: OK, I'll make a new project and try to encourage others to get involved in the Qt SDK.
Feb 18 17:17:12 <nizovn> ok
Feb 18 17:17:53 <novaldex> do Qt apps have system dependencies?
Feb 18 17:17:58 <Preemptive> nivozn: A tutorial would be very good as we have a big emphasis on documentation. Hopefully this project can also help LuneOS. Can you make a thread for it on WN? Then i will link to it.
Feb 18 17:18:26 <novaldex> if it's easy to build apps for both webOS & LuneOS might encourage take up
Feb 18 17:19:09 <nizovn> Preemptive: ok, i'll create a thread after qt plugin is released
Feb 18 17:19:37 <Preemptive> nivozn: Great.
Feb 18 17:19:49 <Preemptive> Is there anymore to add here or shall we move on?
Feb 18 17:20:00 <nizovn> novaldex: apps won't be binary compatible, but source very possible
Feb 18 17:20:33 <novaldex> nizovn: ta, just interesting to know
Feb 18 17:20:40 <Preemptive> nivozn: So, it's just a matter of the build system? (I don't know much here)
Feb 18 17:21:22 <nizovn> this new qt libs for webOS are using separate glibc, as on webOS it's too old
Feb 18 17:21:35 <nizovn> on LuneOS it's on another hand, is too new
Feb 18 17:22:02 <Preemptive> nizovn: We are doubly trapped! ;-)
Feb 18 17:22:22 <nizovn> LuneOS on TP even has different architecture - hard float instead of soft float on webOS
Feb 18 17:22:34 <nizovn> so binaries won't launch
Feb 18 17:22:49 <nizovn> they were working some time ago though
Feb 18 17:23:42 <Preemptive> I know there are currenty, issues with the TP build of LuneOS. I'm sure you will put notes on the SDK thread when it's ready.
Feb 18 17:23:48 <nizovn> not all qt apps from LuneOS can work on webOS, as they can rely on OS
Feb 18 17:23:58 <nizovn> like browser
Feb 18 17:24:32 <Preemptive> nivozn: Is it also possible to build LuneOS apps from source for webOS?
Feb 18 17:24:56 <nizovn> Presmptive: yes, but not all
Feb 18 17:25:12 <Preemptive> (Speaking of Qt5 apps only)
Feb 18 17:25:13 <nizovn> there are not much qt apps in LuneOS though
Feb 18 17:25:35 <Preemptive> Yet! (he said, optimistically)
Feb 18 17:25:46 <nizovn> well, yes
Feb 18 17:26:12 <Preemptive> OK. This all sounds really good. Shall we move on?
Feb 18 17:26:41 <nizovn> i'm aware only about browser, phone, settings, fingerterm apps
Feb 18 17:26:56 <nizovn> not sure they are useful for webOS
Feb 18 17:26:59 <mazzinia> mmm isn't an option to have lune compiled with both hard and soft float as multi-libs ?
Feb 18 17:27:53 <nizovn> mazzinia: not sure
Feb 18 17:28:05 <nizovn> i don't think openembedded support such
Feb 18 17:28:07 <Preemptive> Nivozn: Yes, but I guess it's more non-system apps that will be of interest in the future/.
Feb 18 17:28:32 <mazzinia> just musing... gcc allows multi-libs , so it should be down to the compiler
Feb 18 17:28:53 <Preemptive> mazzinia: Is there not a rquirement from the OS?
Feb 18 17:29:26 <mazzinia> the requirement should be gcc greater than 4.8
Feb 18 17:30:01 <Preemptive> Mazzinia: But if the webOS compiler is too old... maybe that's why?
Feb 18 17:30:34 <nizovn> i think it was decided to use hard float arch for reducing build/space time
Feb 18 17:30:41 <mazzinia> actually I'm mentioning this thinking about lune and having apps needing to be compiled in 2 versions to run on webos or lune
Feb 18 17:30:48 <nizovn> not sure anyone care to run same app in webOS and LuneOS
Feb 18 17:31:09 <mazzinia> if lune gets compiled as multi-lib, webos qt would work without recompiling for it
Feb 18 17:31:45 <Preemptive> mazzinia: but maybe that multi-lib is too big for our old device's memory
Feb 18 17:32:07 <mazzinia> that I dunno, just musing , that's all
Feb 18 17:32:44 <Preemptive> mazzinia: I ask only from a position of ignorance! ;-)
Feb 18 17:32:52 <Preemptive> Shall we move on?
Feb 18 17:33:08 <nizovn> Preemptive: yes probably
Feb 18 17:33:25 <Preemptive> 4.2. Legacy browser patch. (Misj, Shuswap)
Feb 18 17:33:42 <Preemptive> http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/331780-patch-browser-touchpad-smart-url-cleaner.html
Feb 18 17:33:59 <Preemptive> There aren't here, so I think it's 'no report'
Feb 18 17:34:29 <Preemptive> 4.3. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html#post3451411
Feb 18 17:34:56 <Preemptive> Herrie: ^ on the off-chance that he's lurking...
Feb 18 17:35:33 <Preemptive> mazzinia: You're up next...
Feb 18 17:35:47 <mazzinia> I've no updates to report :P
Feb 18 17:35:56 <Preemptive> 4.4. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia) https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/330935-bing-google-maps-location-unavailable.html
Feb 18 17:36:04 <Preemptive> mazzinia: OK
Feb 18 17:36:27 <Preemptive> 4.5. Fix the webos internals patch feed or manage it manually. (novaldex, Herrie) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/326893-webosinternals-patch-portal-down.html#post3450982
Feb 18 17:36:50 <novaldex> no update really, except to say it's much bigger to look into than we thought
Feb 18 17:36:57 <Preemptive> novaldex: You were at code review status?
Feb 18 17:37:03 <novaldex> i've not had chance to have an indepth discussion with Herrie
Feb 18 17:37:28 <novaldex> it's much more than simply publishing patches, there's more than happens in the background than we realise
Feb 18 17:37:29 <Preemptive> novaldex: Can you elaborate on "bigger"?
Feb 18 17:38:08 * novaldex pauses to let people catch up
Feb 18 17:38:29 <Preemptive> novaldex: Can you give a brief summary of the process?
Feb 18 17:39:02 <novaldex> ummm, not really as I don't fully understand it, but I think I can say that each patch is effectively tested before being published
Feb 18 17:39:10 <Preemptive> I assume that there was code to scan a repository and deliver it to preware...
Feb 18 17:39:42 <Preemptive> novaldex: Oh, testing process... automated or (shudder) manual?
Feb 18 17:39:56 <mazzinia> so the part that's preventing publishing is that the quality testing is broken ?
Feb 18 17:40:01 <novaldex> mostly automated, but the shudder comes from how it all hangs together
Feb 18 17:41:08 <novaldex> sorry, someone at the door
Feb 18 17:41:09 <Preemptive> novaldex: Can I suggest a summary on the thread - there's always a slim chance that additional people could help out
Feb 18 17:41:13 <mazzinia> not going to be popular saying it but... given the number of new patches ( very few ), why not bypassing the testing entirely ( on the assumption that the patch maker tests them before releasing )
Feb 18 17:41:50 <novaldex> right, ka6sox took me through it at a high level & it had suddenly grown arms & legs, hence me wanting to have a chat with Herrie first & see what we can do
Feb 18 17:42:40 <novaldex> I did have the thought about just resurrecting it sufficiently to make sure what already exists was still available
Feb 18 17:42:54 <Preemptive> mazzinia: I think you have a point, but as patches are system alterations, it would be dangerous not to test, but perhaps existing ones could be marked as 'done' leaving only new ones to befully tested?
Feb 18 17:43:05 <novaldex> mazzinia: yes, that does make some sense
Feb 18 17:43:59 <mazzinia> that's exactly the point, preemptive. existing ones are already being used by someone and all hell would have been let loose if they created issues
Feb 18 17:44:09 <mazzinia> so we can be enough confident they are sort of safe
Feb 18 17:44:21 <Preemptive> mazzinia: Yes.
Feb 18 17:44:39 <mazzinia> new patches are very few... mainly are app related. and those are sort of tested
Feb 18 17:44:51 <mazzinia> I don't think we have seen a system patch in ages
Feb 18 17:44:54 <novaldex> another idea would be to redesign the testing process, but that'd be a lot of work for little gain
Feb 18 17:45:53 <mazzinia> mmm if we agree that the critical patches would be system/framework related, "if" one gets released, we could as well manually test it
Feb 18 17:45:55 <Preemptive> mazzinia: That's also true, though I suppose there remains a risk beyong the app simply crashing, though I expect the risk will be from poor patches than evil intent
Feb 18 17:46:15 <mazzinia> yep
Feb 18 17:46:39 <mazzinia> and reverting an app patch is trivial
Feb 18 17:46:40 <Preemptive> We are trying to pull together a testing group, so there's another job for them...
Feb 18 17:46:48 <novaldex> just to keep things moving along, let me take it up with Herrie & give him more details, as both of our names are tagged to this one
Feb 18 17:47:25 <Preemptive> OK. A summary post might be good or I can post this discussion on the thread.
Feb 18 17:47:30 <Preemptive> moving on...
Feb 18 17:47:46 <Preemptive> 4.6. webOS Nation App gallery submission and access. (Preemptive)
Feb 18 17:48:02 <novaldex> it was explained to me a bit ago, so need to go back over my notes!
Feb 18 17:48:05 <Preemptive> Sorry, nothing. Need to get devs to clearly identify the problem.
Feb 18 17:48:42 <Preemptive> 4.7. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101).http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-tips-info-resources/331800-documentation-management-thread-webos-user-group.html
Feb 18 17:49:02 <mazzinia> side note... would you use the app gallery to put the whole saved ftp online ?
Feb 18 17:49:28 <Preemptive> This has gone well so far, but i suspect no progress this month...
Feb 18 17:50:06 <Preemptive> mazzinina: If you mean the ftp of old app cat apps, that would be a problem due the the legal gray area.
Feb 18 17:50:19 <mazzinia> ah right... damn
Feb 18 17:50:37 <Preemptive> 4.7.1. Documentation policy.
Feb 18 17:51:09 <Preemptive> Do we even have anything here? Perhpas I should start a thread or get cinversation going on the main thread.
Feb 18 17:51:15 <novaldex> is this a new one i've missed?
Feb 18 17:51:18 <Preemptive> *conversation
Feb 18 17:52:16 <Preemptive> novaldex: It's 'just' a question of what we preserve, how we do it and where we keep it! ;-)
Feb 18 17:52:29 <mazzinia> what : everything :P
Feb 18 17:53:05 <mazzinia> where, depends entirely on the quantity. we could use redundant (different) onedrive mega etc
Feb 18 17:53:05 <Preemptive> e.g. I think we decided not to bother with any more old domians (unless we can get Palm.com for cheap!)
Feb 18 17:53:18 <novaldex> Preemptive: thanks, a new thread to discuss this one is what i'd suggest
Feb 18 17:53:36 <Preemptive> OK, next...
Feb 18 17:53:54 <Preemptive> 4.7.2. Find / improve documentation of mojo / enyo (Misj) http://www.banneret.nl/webos/documentation/
Feb 18 17:54:04 <Preemptive> Misj isn't here, so....
Feb 18 17:54:13 <Preemptive> 4.7.3. On device Help System.
Feb 18 17:54:25 <Preemptive> Nothing new here i think.
Feb 18 17:54:44 <Preemptive> 4.8. Lobbying TCL for an open Palm device. (Preemptive) http://forums.webosnation.com/other-os-s-devices/331778-tcl-launching-new-palm-branded-devices-2018-a.html#post3451195
Feb 18 17:55:54 <Preemptive> Again, apologies. Nothing done. I know expectations are low anyway. I hope to be less busy next month and will try to gain some support from potentially interested parties
Feb 18 17:56:12 <Preemptive> 4.9. Indexing the FTP app source. (JVLebbink1)
Feb 18 17:57:23 <Preemptive> I think this is the 'webOS Museum', which aims to link to the ftp and then to the related images from the app catalog out there on the CDN, to produce a feed.
Feb 18 17:57:42 <Preemptive> JVLebbink1 is not here, so...
Feb 18 17:57:51 <Preemptive> 5. Discussion of other items
Feb 18 17:58:11 <Preemptive> 5.1. webOS time service issue (Network Time not keeping clocks accurate - webOS Nation Forums) http://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331734-network-time-not-keeping-clocks-accurate.html
Feb 18 17:58:51 <Preemptive> We await code from Herrie to test. I think there was a suggested HOSTS file change that might work - need to test.
Feb 18 17:59:42 <Preemptive> 5.2. Device back up options. http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-development/331801-options-automated-device-backup-webos-user-group.html#post3451423
Feb 18 18:00:20 <Preemptive> ..reading thread...
Feb 18 18:01:09 <Preemptive> Hmmm.. there could be things here to test / try out. any comments?
Feb 18 18:02:41 <Preemptive> OK, moving on...
Feb 18 18:03:18 <Preemptive> 5.3. Default app options (e.g. Qupzilla, LuneTube) - possible patching / tutorial on this (see post 69) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-4.html#post3452221
Feb 18 18:04:32 <Preemptive> Maybe this should merge into documentation? We have the information I think. We just need to link or summarise it in an accessible way for developers.
Feb 18 18:05:11 <Preemptive> We just passed 1 hour. Ant thoughts or moving on?
Feb 18 18:05:15 <Preemptive> *Any
Feb 18 18:06:41 <Preemptive> 5.4. webOS threats & Vulnerabilities https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/331974-vulnerabilities-fixes-legacy-webos.html
Feb 18 18:07:58 <Preemptive> I changed this from the krack Hack heading to cover all known issues. I'll link the thread to the heading on the main thread. I assume no one has magically fixed all the vulnerabilities this month. ;-)
Feb 18 18:08:42 <Preemptive> Is any one still here... ;-)
Feb 18 18:08:47 <Preemptive> 5.5. App stores discussion.
Feb 18 18:08:57 <novaldex> still here & paying attention!
Feb 18 18:09:35 <Preemptive> These is actually something here that came up on twitter. There is a project to build not just a catalogue, but backend services for the Pebble community
Feb 18 18:11:15 <Preemptive> Given that we can use Pebble watches with our phones and that any future app store would likely be shared with LuneOS, is there an argument for piggybacking our efforts and combining our resources with the Pebble community to make a shared app store / services effort?
Feb 18 18:11:45 <Preemptive> http://rebble.io/
Feb 18 18:12:49 <Preemptive> Patreon as current funding method...
Feb 18 18:14:16 <Preemptive> If the group wants, I can open discussions...?
Feb 18 18:14:17 <novaldex> it's good not to duplicate effort, but we might outweigh Pebble for the number of apps available..
Feb 18 18:14:48 <Preemptive> But we will be users & $$ (I hope)
Feb 18 18:15:40 <Preemptive> If we get in early, we might get more say on development and if available for webOS / LuneOS, it could be a ready made solution.
Feb 18 18:16:45 <Preemptive> I think we should at least begin discussions here and at WN...
Feb 18 18:16:56 <novaldex> agreed
Feb 18 18:16:58 <Preemptive> ... and webOS Ports
Feb 18 18:17:24 <Preemptive> OK, I'll make a thread and see what feedback there is from those who maybe interested.
Feb 18 18:17:42 <Preemptive> Almost done!
Feb 18 18:17:43 <Preemptive> 6. Any other business.
Feb 18 18:17:47 <novaldex> bit of concern that we may be branching out in too many directions at the moment, we are limited in number
Feb 18 18:18:15 <novaldex> (not necessarily referring to today's attendance!)
Feb 18 18:20:28 <Preemptive> novaldex: I agree, but this is likely to always be the case. It maybe worth making some items 'dormant', but in many ways. it's better to list them all as some progress may be made in any direction. The other option is to select areas of focus, either to get projects done one at a time or focus specifically on select areas each month.
Feb 18 18:21:18 <novaldex> maybe we should consider a list of desirable priorities? I risk upsetting myself here (patch portal & all)
Feb 18 18:22:01 <Preemptive> Obviously, no one can force anyone else to do anything, especialy not on any timetable. Er yes, we could take a 'list all, with highlighted priorities' approach.
Feb 18 18:22:27 <Preemptive> Do you want to suggest priorities now or do it next month?
Feb 18 18:24:24 <Preemptive> ...
Feb 18 18:25:06 <Preemptive> I'm going to take that as next month...
Feb 18 18:25:16 <novaldex> sorry, awfk just there
Feb 18 18:25:32 <novaldex> I think let's list it in the minutes & offer everyone a month to make suggestions & discuss next month?
Feb 18 18:25:53 <novaldex> it may be that the status quo is preferred
Feb 18 18:27:27 <Preemptive> novaldex: Maybe. I'm inclined to agree with you, but most people are doing their own, 1-person projects. They are unlikely to jump on to a priority project over their own... I'm not saying they won't.
Feb 18 18:28:29 <Preemptive> I think we all tend to get things done in 'bursts' of effort when we find some free time. Anyway, noted for next month!
Feb 18 18:28:42 <Preemptive> 7. Date of next meeting.
Feb 18 18:29:04 <Preemptive> I see the 18th is also a Sunday next month. same time again?
Feb 18 18:29:32 <novaldex> Preemptive: thanks
Feb 18 18:29:32 <novaldex> seems okay for me, don't see why not just now..
Feb 18 18:30:01 <Preemptive> Fantastic! done in 90mins unless anyone else here has comments?
Feb 18 18:30:24 <novaldex> all done for me thanks!
Feb 18 18:30:33 <novaldex> are we the only two left?
Feb 18 18:30:40 <nizovn> no :P
Feb 18 18:30:53 <Preemptive> There were still some good things raised despite the low attendance and all progress is good!
Feb 18 18:31:04 <Preemptive> nivozn: is the 18th good for you?
Feb 18 18:31:09 <nizovn> yes
Feb 18 18:31:46 <Preemptive> Great! I appreciate that you are at every meeting so far i think!
Feb 18 18:32:02 <nizovn> :)
Feb 18 18:32:05 <Preemptive> nivozn: Thanks for your time.
Feb 18 18:32:24 <Preemptive> Novaldex: See you next month. I'll watch for your summary post.
Feb 18 18:32:49 <Preemptive> Mazzinia: Thanks for showing up (if you are still here!)
Feb 18 18:33:05 <novaldex> thanks all! see you next time..
Feb 18 18:33:11 <nizovn> Preemptive: thank you too
Feb 18 18:34:02 <Preemptive> The meeting is closed. Good evening!
Feb 18 18:34:12 <nizovn> bye!
Feb 18 19:16:32 <mazzinia> sorry preemptive, got dragged away
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Feb 19 03:00:02 2018