**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 16 02:59:59 2018 Dec 16 12:57:19 webOS meet up in 4 hours: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-8.html#post3454738 Dec 16 12:58:29 hello preemptive Dec 16 13:39:19 bughi1980: Hi Dec 16 14:29:10 hi, sorry , was distracted :P Dec 16 14:29:18 I'm hunting easter eggs on a site Dec 16 16:06:40 1 Hour. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-8.html#post3454738 Dec 16 16:48:02 codepoet80, bughi1980: can confirm feed ssl issue as well. sadly, i have no free time until next weekend. Dec 16 16:48:20 and not really sure what i can do with it... Dec 16 16:56:13 we're going to have to solve this TLS thing, or the web is going to keep getting smaller for webOS. Dec 16 16:58:14 uhm... a temp solution could be to clone the feed to some place that isn't using tsl 1.2 Dec 16 16:58:46 by example georgemari feed is still using tsl1.1 Dec 16 16:59:58 but the long term solution is a new tsl library Dec 16 17:03:20 OK. Let's start. Here is the agenda: https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up-8.html#post3454738 Dec 16 17:04:12 1. Attendees & Introductions of new attendees. Dec 16 17:04:17 Who is here? Dec 16 17:04:36 Sorry, can only pop in for a few minutes Dec 16 17:04:45 I'm guessing no one new today Dec 16 17:04:56 hi Dec 16 17:04:58 i'm good for an hour Dec 16 17:05:47 bbito: OK, well you'll be up first and I'll try to get through ti all quickly Dec 16 17:06:19 Stop me if you've anything for: 2. Any proposed updates to the aims or rules of the group. Dec 16 17:06:30 Or: 3. Possible selection of officers or area contacts. Dec 16 17:06:47 Nothing with meta-doctors, although I did make a PR on enyo-dev :) Dec 16 17:06:56 4. Progress reports Dec 16 17:07:03 4.1. Updated meta-doctors. (Herrie, bbito) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a.html#post3451411 Dec 16 17:07:11 bbito: Go for it! Dec 16 17:07:30 Hmm where's my post? Dec 16 17:07:37 What was the Pull request? Dec 16 17:08:02 Fixes template cloning Dec 16 17:08:34 I'm on Pre, so can't go to github to link now Dec 16 17:10:01 The loss of github in Pre browser was/is a big bummer... Dec 16 17:10:38 Here you go: https://github.com/enyojs/enyo-dev/pull/48 Dec 16 17:11:08 bbito: Yes, I guess we'll get to TLS... Dec 16 17:12:46 bbito: try this. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/331796-webos-internals-meta-doctor-2017-a-3.html#post3454834 Dec 16 17:14:18 Preemotive: Thanks Dec 16 17:14:48 I am feeling a bit pre-emotive as it happens... Dec 16 17:16:06 lol Dec 16 17:16:45 odd, that's how wIRC tagged your last ID Dec 16 17:17:07 but the log has your normal one Dec 16 17:17:15 So it's a bit of clean up to avoid confusion? Was this an issue with the meta-doctors? Dec 16 17:17:31 unrelated Dec 16 17:17:45 OK, well we can move on...? Dec 16 17:18:32 yes! Dec 16 17:18:45 gotta go Dec 16 17:18:49 ...I can delete the forum post if it's irrelevant. Dec 16 17:18:51 4.2. Updated location service. (Misj, mazzinia) https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/330935-bing-google-maps-location-unavailable.html Dec 16 17:20:06 no updates Dec 16 17:20:48 OK. And I'll skip 4.3. as neither novaldex or Herrie are here (Herrie sends his apologies) Dec 16 17:20:57 4.4. Preservation / Restoration of sources of documentation* (including original Palm documents, Open WebOS, git.webos-internals.org & 3rd party sources such as webOS101). (All members in the sub-sections) http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-tips-info-resources/331800-documentation-management-thread-webos-user-group.html Dec 16 17:21:04 4.4.1. Documentation policy. Dec 16 17:22:03 I guess there are no developments here, but perhaps we should use the thread to begin listing resouces that can be copied to the github pages Dec 16 17:22:09 continuing to add content and links as i find them Dec 16 17:22:10 or was it git lab? Dec 16 17:22:27 still mostly mojo, but as i ramp up on enyo, i'll work on refreshing that too Dec 16 17:22:30 Is there any issue with formats? Like can we put wiki pages there? Dec 16 17:22:41 Repo is here: https://github.com/codepoet80/webos-sdk-archive Dec 16 17:22:52 Still need to remove the php dependency so it can work with GitHub pages Dec 16 17:23:49 OK. So probably we need to list known documentation and the various locations, then check that it is mirrored or copied to the repo. Dec 16 17:24:01 A little Christmas project.. Dec 16 17:24:54 Anything more on this? I'm inclined to skip to 4.6... Dec 16 17:25:28 not from me Dec 16 17:25:38 4.6 Night Moves app (An f.lux/Redshift type app). https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/332277-there-any-night-modes-webos-like-f-lux.html Dec 16 17:25:55 1.0.2 pushed this morning Dec 16 17:26:17 solves a Pre bug where the app wouldn't close when it should, and adds a feature to delay the weekend wake-up timer by an hour Dec 16 17:26:30 my updates are also starting to appear on Preware fairly fast Dec 16 17:26:39 Very nice. Are you inclined to attempt any experiment to alter colour temperature? Dec 16 17:26:59 haven't found anything in the LunaSys apis that would let me do that Dec 16 17:28:17 Yes, I suppose it depends at what level the adjustment would be made. redshift works on Linux, but webOS may not work like a desktop distro Dec 16 17:29:03 if someone finds an API, i'll be happy to exploit, otherwise i'll just be maintaining the current solution. Dec 16 17:29:11 no other news, i think we can move on Dec 16 17:29:19 4.7 webOS Nation App Gallery Submission And Access. (Preemptive) Dec 16 17:29:56 OK. Just to be able to say I'd done something, I emailed Derek Kessler today Dec 16 17:30:15 * Preemptive check email Dec 16 17:31:06 No reply. Basically, it was, "Can you arrange to get the app gallery fixed?" Or, "Can we have the apps & maybe the Gallery code?" Dec 16 17:32:34 I doubt there's a big demand for apps these days, and I think we can still D/L them via preware, except the feed is a couple of years out of date. Dec 16 17:33:05 Which doesn't matter much as I think the devs can't update the apps anyway. Dec 16 17:33:19 Any comments? Or shall I move on? Dec 16 17:35:31 I'll take that as a yes. If Mr Kessler replies I'll either post to a thread or report at the next meeting. Dec 16 17:35:34 5. Discussion of other items. Dec 16 17:35:47 5.1. Device back up options. http://forums.webosnation.com/webos-development/331801-options-automated-device-backup-webos-user-group.html#post3451423 Relevant? https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/10/researchers-can-now-legally-restore-abandoned-online-game-servers/ Researchers can now legally restore “abandoned” online game servers. Dec 16 17:37:14 not sure if its directly applicable, but given the clearly abandonware status of many webOS apps, I'm happy to assume its OK to work with the code as i see fit :-) Dec 16 17:39:06 I would tend to agree Dec 16 17:39:46 plus various developers gave their ok about giving the apps. the others were simply not reachable Dec 16 17:40:27 codepoet80: As ever, 'abandonware' is not a legal term that I'm aware of and it would only apply if someone publically / formally declared their app public domain Dec 16 17:40:48 But yes, a few did that and some are open-source anyway Dec 16 17:41:54 The additional link above is about a the legality of enthusiasts maintaining network games by bringing their own servers up Dec 16 17:42:19 in view of the online game servers thing, a direct application would be to start up the now abandoned hp infra Dec 16 17:42:21 I don't know if they have the code or reverse-engineered it Dec 16 17:42:31 the issue would be to get a backup of such thing Dec 16 17:43:21 bughi1980: Yes. However. the ability to do the game thing is very limited ('research purposes') and copies of the code must be legal etc... Dec 16 17:43:21 or look at what responses the HP apps were expecting, and reverse engineer it. i was thinking about that and the App Catalog last night Dec 16 17:43:47 there are various famous online games that had 3rd party free servers made. the game companies usually pushed them to close down obivously, because it impacted their subscriptions Dec 16 17:43:56 but once the game is discontinued Dec 16 17:44:00 and is no more a revenue Dec 16 17:44:07 the whole thing changes Dec 16 17:44:15 It's worth a read, but the effort to get the code or reverse engineer... it will probably be easier to build a new app store Dec 16 17:45:05 you can always sneak around with legal terms, preemptive Dec 16 17:45:26 once a game server is shut down for good, the game owner will effectively not care Dec 16 17:45:55 Interestingly, I did hear a thing on the radio about a former MS messenger dev who made some kind of code to keep it alive upon cancellation (the servers stayed up for some other country for a few years) Dec 16 17:46:03 at least as long as it's not for profit, what's reaized Dec 16 17:47:19 I suspect a button to do a hosts file fix-type thing. Eventually, the servers were switched off, but he found someone who had set up a whole new server, so apparantly, there are stil MS Messenger users out there... Dec 16 17:48:34 I don't think the app store is still up, I don't know that anyone would know the corrct IP address if it is and I doubt anyone has legal access to the code outside of HP Dec 16 17:48:50 ...and I doubt they would give it to us! Dec 16 17:49:41 well... I have seen weird things Dec 16 17:49:58 I would say 1 chance exists Dec 16 17:50:52 It's worth thinking about, but again - it might be easier to use the FirefoxOS marketplace code to make a new store. Dec 16 17:51:29 possibly. the hp attempt could be mixed with asking the whole backup and activation infra Dec 16 17:51:41 as long as the db data is purged, there's no sensible info Dec 16 17:51:54 so it's mainly about if they have code under license, or not Dec 16 17:52:20 Oh, I realise we've drifted off topic a bit - this is about the code to back up the device, not the app store, but most of the above applies to both situations. Dec 16 17:52:35 yepp Dec 16 17:52:43 Shall we move on? Dec 16 17:52:49 sure Dec 16 17:52:54 5.2. webOS Vulnerabilities and Fixes. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-patches/331974-vulnerabilities-fixes-legacy-webos.html Dec 16 17:53:14 I've grouped the next two under that heading... Dec 16 17:53:15 5.2.1. Is the end of support for TLS 1.0 & 1.1 a problem? https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-discussion-lounge/332279-end-support-tls-1-0-1-1-problem.html Dec 16 17:54:48 So this is about HTTPS encryption rather than domain certificates. I think the SSL update solved the latter. Dec 16 17:54:49 about this point, we definitely need a new tls library installed Dec 16 17:54:59 ya Dec 16 17:55:20 it may be enough to just compile the tls module for the right arm variant Dec 16 17:55:24 and drop it in Dec 16 17:55:33 I'm surprised it's not the same SSL / TLS module. Or is it a problem with the implementation? Dec 16 17:55:41 actually maybe there's a pre compiled module we can borrow Dec 16 17:56:11 so i grabbed the one built for luneos -- same processor Dec 16 17:56:15 no worky Dec 16 17:56:19 ah damn Dec 16 17:56:37 here goes the easy way Dec 16 17:56:46 Yeah, I know nothing of this stuff, but I think it would have to be built for webOS Dec 16 17:57:00 well yes and no Dec 16 17:57:06 Is it a kernel thing? Dec 16 17:57:16 you can relink the pointers , I think Dec 16 17:57:26 no, it's not a kernel thing Dec 16 17:57:47 codepoet , you rebooted to try, right ? Dec 16 17:58:24 codepoet80_: Do you think you can progress from 'no worky'? Dec 16 18:00:09 ya, i did. it wouldn't boot when i linked to the new library Dec 16 18:00:31 i don't really know what i'm doing, but i think "drop in replacement" isn't going to work. however... Dec 16 18:01:00 mmm Dec 16 18:01:27 ok, in unix/ linux there's a way to see what an object is linked with Dec 16 18:01:42 the previous SSL project 0.9.8j may have solved many of the challenges Dec 16 18:01:43 https://github.com/tgaillar/OpenSSL-Updater/wiki Dec 16 18:01:51 likely that new tls is linked to a few objects that are not present in webos Dec 16 18:01:54 thus the issue Dec 16 18:02:05 So I'm looking at compiling one tonight. It is roughly a drop in, with a change to the structure of a couple of the internal data types because of direct access instead of through function calls. Dec 16 18:02:22 I think I explained it in a post on webOSNation at one point. Dec 16 18:02:39 looking forward to see if it works! Dec 16 18:02:49 dkirker: Well hello Mr Good News! This sounds interesting! Dec 16 18:04:41 dkirker: you are going to update openssl to >1.0? Dec 16 18:05:02 Yeah. I had tried using one of the libraries that was built with the QT5 stuff, and while it didn't crash it also didn't work. So after looking at some of the patch files from the opensource.palm.com stuff I noticed some direct access, and that in > 1.0 the location of those fields changed. Dec 16 18:05:19 nizovn, yeah Dec 16 18:06:26 I suppose work is being done, so I should upgrade this from discussion to an actual project. Dec 16 18:07:34 interesting, but i'm a bit skeptical (unreasonably). Dec 16 18:08:16 i heard openssl have troubles with backward compatibility Dec 16 18:08:29 but again, i'm not sure... Dec 16 18:09:41 nizovn: If true, I don't see any way forward and it will really be the begining of the end for legacy webOS Dec 16 18:10:28 dkirker: Do you have a link to the repository? Dec 16 18:10:42 I can't promise that it will fully work, but when I checked the patch files the used APIs still existed in >= 1.0, as did the data structure members, bit was just the re-ordered data structure members that lead to some stuff not working (thankfully, in this case, one of the items was null). Dec 16 18:10:45 Preemptive: yes, maybe Dec 16 18:10:56 Preemptive, no link yet Dec 16 18:11:11 tls 1.3 will make all worse for sure Dec 16 18:12:18 nizovn: Well, TLS 1.3 is a way off from being compulsory, so hopefully we have a bit longer. Dec 16 18:12:20 agree, but it would be nice if we could keep the platform alive until then. would suck for the software to be no-op before the hardware all dies Dec 16 18:14:12 dkirker: Good luck with this. Keep us up to date on the thread - especially if you need anything. It's tough seeing errors on more and more websites. Though Dec 16 18:14:25 thanks! Dec 16 18:14:38 yes, please let us know if we can help! i may have a temporary work-around for browsing... Dec 16 18:14:48 ...Qt browser works, the backround services also will break Dec 16 18:15:28 yeah.... I've been piping my connection through a proxy that I set up (need to upgrade the server -- the version of Squid installed on this old version of Fedora is buggy...) -- but the proxy method makes some of the carrier stuff not work. :/ Dec 16 18:15:31 ya, Qupzilla is a life saver for me. Also tinkering with a patch for the built-in browser to re-fetch a URL through my de-https script Dec 16 18:15:51 i never did get Squid working :( Dec 16 18:16:26 Let's move on, unless there are further comments..? Dec 16 18:16:51 The config I posted is for an older version... I need to migrate to an Ubuntu version, then I'll post that. (Though, hopefully I'd just get the libssl library working :P ) Dec 16 18:17:06 @dkirker, thank you! Dec 16 18:18:51 Slightly less vital, but... Dec 16 18:18:52 5.2.2. Does the VPN app need an update? https://forums.webosnation.com/open-webos-general-discussion/332302-vpn-hp-webos.html#post3454594 Dec 16 18:20:06 There's OpenVPN and initial thoughts (from Herrie) seem to suggest a fix may be possible. Dec 16 18:20:27 i'd write it off as dead. unlike HTTPS, where providers need to maintain backward compatibility and will do so at the risk of being insecure. VPN providers need to promise security, and will do so by only supporting the latest crypto. I've had no luck even getting to a handshake with a number of VPN stacks. Dec 16 18:23:08 heh something else I started poking at! The VPN framework basically provides a service and UI wrapper around various other implementations. I had started in on writing a OpenVPN wrapper. I think I have been able to connect to my OpenVPN server here at home from the OpenVPN package in Preware. (But it's been a while, so I'd need to look.) Getting it in to the UI would just be a little bit of wrapper code, I think. Dec 16 18:23:09 Yes, but the suggestion is that there is a available code and the architecture in the (working) LuneOS version is similar to legacy (ConnMan) so an upgrade seems... possible. Dec 16 18:24:00 ^ What dkirker said! Dec 16 18:24:02 That said, i don't know the effort to work it in to LuneOS. Dec 16 18:24:26 there's a couple OpenVPN libraries in some repo somewhere, but none of them would talk to my OpenVPN at home :( Dec 16 18:25:04 dkirker: Looking at the thread again, it's actually untested, with no UI, but "should work" I guess it's just what is from upstream Dec 16 18:25:35 Ah, yes, I recall Herrie saying something to that effect Dec 16 18:26:36 Clearly this is all speculation at the moment and lower priority as it's not a show-stopper, so we can move on unless there's more to add...? Dec 16 18:26:49 nothing more from me right now Dec 16 18:27:09 5.3. LG's webOS Open Source Edition http://forum.webosose.org/ Dec 16 18:27:52 Any one doing anything with this? or shall we skip it? Obviously, it's now being incorporated into LuneOS for the next release. Dec 16 18:28:35 well i'm slowly porting it to tissot Dec 16 18:29:12 but there is no practical sense, as LuneOS is better suited for phones Dec 16 18:29:27 nizovn: You mean pure OSE? What's the reason? Or do you mean you're doing the LuneOS/OSE work? Dec 16 18:29:40 yes, pure OSE Dec 16 18:29:53 nizovn: So why...? ;-) Dec 16 18:30:45 the reason is to demonstrate that OSE can be ported to different devices, and even by non skilled programmers Dec 16 18:32:06 nizovn: OK. I understand - except that you are obviously a very skilled programmer! ;-) Dec 16 18:32:12 it's more for LG collaboration, to attract some interest Dec 16 18:32:21 to OSE Dec 16 18:32:48 well i'm not even a programmer... Dec 16 18:33:13 nizovn: How would you describe yourself? Dec 16 18:34:02 i'm physicist :P, and enjoy home-hobby programming Dec 16 18:34:44 nizovn: OK! But you can be skilled - even if it is a hobby. Dec 16 18:35:09 ...moving on... Dec 16 18:35:23 5.4. Possible Emoji support. https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-development/320256-emoji-emoticon-display-messaging-app-3.html Dec 16 18:36:33 got emoji's in qupzilla :) that's as far as I've figured out how to go... Dec 16 18:36:42 emoji will work with the characters that are definitely in the utf8 space, but I think there is a weak support for some of the other encodings in libWebKit on the device... Dec 16 18:37:40 I tweaked some flags and could see emojis on the command line with ls-monitor, so they are at least stored in mojodb correctly, but the last leg, luna-service -> LSM things break. Dec 16 18:38:19 Yes the thread seems to conclude that it may not be possible without upgrading the underlying system. possible? Perhaps a flaw in webkit? Dec 16 18:38:27 I've been noticing web sites showing funky characters more recently, so I suspect that the archaic version of WebKit just doesn't support the encoding well. :( Dec 16 18:38:46 possibly a bug, or just shortcoming of that version Dec 16 18:38:58 It's low priority - again not a show stopper. Let's move on! Dec 16 18:39:13 5.6. Possible LuneOS testing protocol. Dec 16 18:39:29 would *love* to upgrade WebKit, but given my time is limited, not sure I'll be able to do that... But, might be a fun experiment. Dec 16 18:39:42 but anyway... moving on Dec 16 18:40:19 This is just my thought that we could act as a test team by using a formalised set of tests or procedure Dec 16 18:40:51 Basically consult with webOS Ports and make a list of things to check with each release Dec 16 18:41:03 Any thoughts? Dec 16 18:41:33 there is Testr app in LuneOS for testing Dec 16 18:42:22 nizovn: That's true. Is it enough? Do you not need human testers? Dec 16 18:43:11 i think we need only human testing at this stage Dec 16 18:43:19 A New battery for my N4 arrived yesterday... ;-) Dec 16 18:44:05 i would check everything in testr + checked that all known hw features does work Dec 16 18:44:11 nizovn: OK. Well I just thought a list of basic QA test might hrlp Dec 16 18:44:14 like rotation/wifi/screen timeout Dec 16 18:44:16 *help Dec 16 18:44:42 Preemptive: yes, it would be very helpful Dec 16 18:45:37 nizovn: OK. I guess the easiest thing to do is make a thread and let the LuneOS devs make suggestions for tests to do. So I'll make that thread. Dec 16 18:45:38 there is chance to mistake with small number of testers, like in Doppio release for TP Dec 16 18:45:58 Preemptive: yes, thanks Dec 16 18:46:36 OK. I think we're done! Unless... Dec 16 18:46:38 6. Any other business. Dec 16 18:48:07 ...? Dec 16 18:48:23 ...taking that as a "no"... Dec 16 18:48:31 7. Date of next meeting. Dec 16 18:49:29 Sundays in January 2019 are 6, 13, 20, 27 Dec 16 18:50:13 13? Dec 16 18:50:18 6 or 13 are probably good for me Dec 16 18:50:40 I'm guessing most of us will have some kind of holiday, so should may go with the later dates... OH" bids for the 13th? Can do! Dec 16 18:50:59 13 Dec 16 18:51:02 Same time? (1700 GMT) Dec 16 18:51:33 ok for me Dec 16 18:52:34 ditto. ttyl! Dec 16 18:52:44 ...OK... Dec 16 18:53:24 So the next meeting is the 13th of January 2019. Happy holidays and a great New Year to you all! Dec 16 18:53:41 bah humbug! Dec 16 18:53:44 thanks all! Dec 16 18:53:46 happy holidays. :) Dec 16 18:54:36 dkirker: I'm a bit Bah, Humbug myself, but... Dec 16 18:55:13 work has definitely left me there D: Dec 16 18:56:38 Time for dinner. good night all... Dec 16 18:57:16 Thanks for a good meeting. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 17 03:00:00 2018