**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Apr 20 02:59:57 2020
Apr 20 21:40:50 <Slothman21> Good day, new stranger who's only just now finding out about webos. Thinking about getting a veer I've been eyeing, and I've already looked a little into what it'd take to get it on uberclock and with internet access /calls/SMS, but i had some further questions is someone doesn't mind shedding light on my ignorant self
Apr 20 21:44:06 <pcworld> hello
Apr 20 21:44:10 <pcworld> what are your questions?
Apr 20 21:47:39 <Slothman21> I was interested in whether the veer was capable of receiving multimedia messages, if there was an app for xmpp with omemo, if a touchpad running luneos could use native webos apps or could touch share with a native webos phone, and if the veer could be used on a third party provider using att's network
Apr 20 21:48:02 <pcworld> omemo no
Apr 20 21:48:25 <pcworld> xmpp yes, at least for webOS 1.4.5, not sure if there was xmpp integration for webOS 2.x
Apr 20 21:48:51 <pcworld> there's some libpurple extensions for webOS 1.4.5 which add messaging services to the official messaging app, including xmpp
Apr 20 21:49:15 <pcworld> multimedia messages, do you mean MMS?
Apr 20 21:49:54 <Slothman21> Oh interesting, i didn't know the architecture changed enough to render older apps incompatible
Apr 20 21:50:03 <pcworld> MMS should work iirc, even though I never used them myself. Assuming the formats/protocols haven't changed over the years.
Apr 20 21:50:35 <pcworld> the xmpp thing was hacked into the official messaging app which changed with webOS 2.x.
Apr 20 21:50:37 <Slothman21> And yes,  MMS . Been having issues with my current phone off Google's apps
Apr 20 21:50:57 <pcworld> I think there were other apps for XMPP, but some of them used relays which are likely dead by now.
Apr 20 21:51:25 <pcworld> Btw I developed the app "QuickChat for Facebook" which was a Facebook messenger and used XMPP under the hood, however it only supported Facebook (and Facebook long dropped the XMPP API)
Apr 20 21:52:24 <pcworld> no idea about the "third party provider using att's network" part, cellular stuff here isn't as weird/incompatible as it is in the US
Apr 20 21:53:05 <pcworld> but my guess would be that if ATT works with the specific model of the Veer, other providers would as well (at least from the hardware)
Apr 20 21:53:45 <Slothman21> I guess the issue is if I'd have access to the APN info and could adjust values
Apr 20 21:54:05 <pcworld> ah nevermind the messaging plugins exist for webOS 2.x and support XMPP https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-homebrew-apps/278796-synergy-messaging-plugins-webos-2-x.html
Apr 20 21:54:19 <pcworld> but as omemo is relatively new I doubt somebody ever ported that
Apr 20 21:54:45 <Slothman21> It's all the same protocols, just using different handling IP addresses
Apr 20 21:54:47 <pcworld> but there's a Telegram messenger for webOS 2.x (a port of telegram-desktop) which should still work
Apr 20 21:55:35 <pcworld> The forum at https://forums.webosnation.com/ is still somewhat active btw, you could ask there and I'm sure someone could tell you.
Apr 20 21:55:47 <Slothman21> That's really great. I tried searching the app catalogue, but it seemed to only search the name field
Apr 20 21:56:05 <pcworld> a lot of the cool stuff never was in the official app catalog
Apr 20 21:56:21 <pcworld> like patches and apps which integrate more with the underlying OS
Apr 20 21:56:39 <pcworld> did you search here https://preware.pivotce.com/ or where?
Apr 20 21:57:21 <Slothman21> Is there a repository for the unofficial apps?
Apr 20 21:57:28 <pcworld> it's called Preware
Apr 20 21:57:37 <pcworld> the link I gave you is an online index for that
Apr 20 21:58:04 <Slothman21> I've read a bit from luneoss' page, and the webos nation pages
Apr 20 21:58:22 <pcworld> you'll also need a few patches probably to make the OS work somewhat well with modern-day internet
Apr 20 21:59:08 <Slothman21> I think i found a good guide pertaining to that. Something titled 0 to Google
Apr 20 21:59:10 <pcworld> like support for sha1 SSL certificates https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-internals/330666-openssl-updater-fixing-certificate-issues.html -- that's something that's not in the official catalog
Apr 20 21:59:16 <pcworld> *sha256
Apr 20 21:59:54 <pcworld> but even other than that the browser is really shitty for modern websites
Apr 20 22:01:02 <pcworld> There's a Qt browser which was ported by nizovn and makes modern web more usable probably https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-apps-games/332183-qt-webbrowser.html
Apr 20 22:01:34 <Slothman21> I kinda figured. Even properly optimized, you're still rattling against a 512MB chain
Apr 20 22:02:03 <pcworld> yeah performance isn't great
Apr 20 22:02:35 <pcworld> btw there's a lot of treausre in the webOSnation forum. Like the Qt browser, which you won't find in the Preware catalog, since most or all feeds in Preware are unmaintained by now afaik
Apr 20 22:02:35 <Slothman21> I'm a fairly light internetter, for lack of a better vocab
Apr 20 22:03:32 <pcworld> curious, what drives you to webOS if you've never used it before?
Apr 20 22:03:42 <Slothman21> And on that note, could a newer device flashed to luneos take advantage of either catalogue?
Apr 20 22:04:09 <pcworld> I think some apps are compatible with LuneOS, yes, but not all
Apr 20 22:04:22 <pcworld> also the Veer doesn't support LuneOS afaik
Apr 20 22:04:50 <Slothman21> An aversion to Google, and my love for finding overlooked equipment that does everything I need without selling my info
Apr 20 22:06:00 <Slothman21> I'm aware of the veer not being supported, I ask because if i get one, i plan on pairing it with the touchpad
Apr 20 22:06:30 <pcworld> If you want LuneOS there are options like the Pinephone (not sure how stable the port is yet though). The guys in #webos-ports or the LuneOS website could tell you more. Never really used LuneOS myself.
Apr 20 22:06:55 <pcworld> ah you already have a TouchPad?
Apr 20 22:06:58 <Slothman21> And I'd like to know if it'd be a good idea to flash luneos to it, or if i should keep it stock
Apr 20 22:08:01 <pcworld> I don't really know how well LuneOS already works on the TouchPad
Apr 20 22:08:32 <pcworld> btw there's another modern browser for the TouchPad: https://forums.webosnation.com/hp-touchpad/331764-tp-qupzilla.html
Apr 20 22:08:45 <pcworld> or if you use  LuneOS on the touchpad you'd get a very recent webkit
Apr 20 22:08:54 <pcworld> (or Chromium or whatever is under the hood now)
Apr 20 22:11:06 <Slothman21> Ah, you know if the touch to share still works in luneos? Would the veer be able to share info to the touchpad?
Apr 20 22:11:31 <pcworld> I really doubt that
Apr 20 22:12:06 <pcworld> though I think the touch-to-share never supported much. Mainly sending URLs from one device to another ("browser tabs")
Apr 20 22:13:56 <Slothman21> Honestly that seems like an amazing feature. But I'm between devices a lot, so it's a very nice feature for someone rarely at a desk
Apr 20 22:14:25 <pcworld> regarding LuneOS, the developers are over at #webos-ports
Apr 20 22:15:34 <Slothman21> Guess i might as well ask, but after initial upgrades and getting the veer lined out on the new protocols, how often or reliant on a computer would it be?
Apr 20 22:15:59 <Slothman21> Thank you for the link
Apr 20 22:16:57 <Slothman21> I've been bookmarking all the links you're offering, BTW. I'm a bit slow on the keys to say thanks everytime
Apr 20 22:16:59 <pcworld> never used a Veer, used a Pre3 though up until a little less than a year ago or so
Apr 20 22:17:16 <pcworld> email worked pretty fine
Apr 20 22:17:22 <Slothman21> Were those 4g capable?
Apr 20 22:17:26 <pcworld> Telegram worked fine (if you don't need to share pictures)
Apr 20 22:17:31 <pcworld> I think only 3g
Apr 20 22:17:41 <pcworld> and browser worked for some simpler websites
Apr 20 22:18:00 <pcworld> didn't really need more
Apr 20 22:18:16 <pcworld> Pre3's camera is okayish (don't need more)
Apr 20 22:18:16 <Slothman21> Ah, wasn't sure since i read from so many places that the veer and the pre3 shared so many specs
Apr 20 22:18:28 <pcworld> Pre(2)'s camera sucks though because it has fixed focus.
Apr 20 22:18:39 <Slothman21> People kept alliterating the veer to the pixi
Apr 20 22:18:40 <pcworld> Not sure if the Veer has the better dynamic-focus camera or also fixed focus
Apr 20 22:19:52 <pcworld> not sure about the 4G thing though, and I think the US models are different anyway regarding cellular stuff. Maybe 4G works
Apr 20 22:19:59 <Slothman21> I don't really need a camera, aside from maybe evidence or being too lazy to write down something
Apr 20 22:21:11 <pcworld> so I guess it depends on what you need more than the things  I listed
Apr 20 22:21:14 <Slothman21> My concerns are more of making sure there aren't hidden bugs that would make it impossible to trust for a week of use
Apr 20 22:21:25 <pcworld> webOS has a lot of bugs :)
Apr 20 22:21:42 <pcworld> it really depends on your needs
Apr 20 22:21:43 <Slothman21> What you've said has been very promising
Apr 20 22:21:56 <pcworld> could be my nostalgia glasses
Apr 20 22:22:21 <pcworld> you should be okay with the fact that a lot of websites won't work at all with the Veer
Apr 20 22:22:49 <pcworld> not sure if there's still players for youtube if you need that
Apr 20 22:22:58 <Slothman21> I can deal with hiccups no prob. If it crashes and needs a computer to flash it back to working every other day, we'd have problems
Apr 20 22:23:37 <pcworld> flashing regularly shouldn't be necessary. I used the Pre3 without flashing it for like 5 years or so until the stupid thing reset itself
Apr 20 22:23:47 <pcworld> (reset itself = deleted all apps and their data)
Apr 20 22:24:09 <Slothman21> Been avoiding yt as much as possible. I sometimes use invidio.us (yt without analytics )
Apr 20 22:24:11 <pcworld> crashing or needing reboots can happen from time to time
Apr 20 22:24:48 <pcworld> crashing shouldn't happen often though. My Pre2 crashes regularly but I suspect it's a hardware problem.
Apr 20 22:24:58 <pcworld> (didn't use to do that)
Apr 20 22:25:22 <Slothman21> But i limited my mobile data specifically to ween myself off all the big sites that take tons of data, to to you something that should have been in writing in the first place
Apr 20 22:25:40 <pcworld> but sometimes things in webOS break and you need a reboot for it to work again. Like the media indexer for mp3s and stuff likes to die
Apr 20 22:25:48 <Slothman21> To tell*
Apr 20 22:26:06 <Slothman21> Lol
Apr 20 22:26:25 <Slothman21> That's fine, as long as data doesn't get lost
Apr 20 22:26:37 <pcworld> well I learned the hard way that I should have done backups
Apr 20 22:26:45 <pcworld> nothing got really lost for several years
Apr 20 22:26:49 <Slothman21> I'd cry to lose my texts and pics because of a hiccup
Apr 20 22:26:56 <pcworld> until some internal partition filled up and webOS decided to reset itself
Apr 20 22:27:08 <pcworld> media partition (pictures) survived though
Apr 20 22:27:11 <Slothman21> (｡╯︵╰｡)
Apr 20 22:27:19 <pcworld> but text messages didn't because they're in an internal database
Apr 20 22:27:38 <pcworld> but there's a backup app in Preware which can backup stuff like text messages, you just need to do it
Apr 20 22:27:42 <Slothman21> Ye, that's rough
Apr 20 22:29:13 <pcworld> what should go without saying is that the OS is really insecure because it didn't get patches in like 10 years
Apr 20 22:29:24 <pcworld> but I guess no one would bother creating exploits for webOS
Apr 20 22:29:47 <Slothman21> Think I'm gonna order all the stuff in my cart then. The phone, the tablet and a stone for charging
Apr 20 22:30:03 <pcworld> shouldn't be too expensive I suppose?
Apr 20 22:30:12 <pcworld> or has it already become a collector's thing in your area?
Apr 20 22:31:05 <Slothman21> Exactly. I'm enamored by the fact there's still a dedicated community to keeping things running, and pair it with the fact it's under the radar of anyone who would look to do evil unto you
Apr 20 22:31:40 <Slothman21> I'll be honest, I've purchased year old phones for cheaper
Apr 20 22:31:47 <pcworld> yeah the community was one of the coolest things about webOS, and it still exists albeit small
Apr 20 22:31:49 <Slothman21> The new palm, for instance
Apr 20 22:32:08 <Slothman21> Loved it for to days, then dropped it just right
Apr 20 22:32:19 <Slothman21> Two *
Apr 20 22:32:35 <pcworld> broke the screen?
Apr 20 22:32:41 <Slothman21> It'd be nice to see it get a port of luneos
Apr 20 22:32:59 <pcworld> that will most likely never happen because the Veer has proprietary drivers for which the source was never released
Apr 20 22:33:01 <Slothman21> Yes. That same day, the phone case arrived
Apr 20 22:33:26 <pcworld> I've dropped my Pres pretty often over the years and the screens never broke. I dunno why modern smartphone's screens break all the time
Apr 20 22:33:30 <Slothman21> Sorry, meant the palm PVG100
Apr 20 22:33:35 <pcworld> so many people around me have smartphones with broken screens
Apr 20 22:33:46 <Slothman21> That's what i dropped
Apr 20 22:33:50 <pcworld> yeah I got that
Apr 20 22:34:14 <pcworld> that's why I compared the Pre to modern smartphones :)
Apr 20 22:34:22 <Slothman21> The sense field reflects light out which disabled it
Apr 20 22:34:36 <pcworld> or maybe I just don't drop them hard enough. I haven't studied how other people drop their phones
Apr 20 22:35:12 <Slothman21> Ah, double sorry: meant the pvg 100 getting luneos
Apr 20 22:35:28 <pcworld> ah I thought you meant the Veer
Apr 20 22:35:43 <Slothman21> My drop was under a foot
Apr 20 22:35:47 <pcworld> does it have android?
Apr 20 22:36:07 <Slothman21> But it landed on it's side, and hit the metal table leg
Apr 20 22:36:07 <pcworld> then there's chances someone could port it. Because LuneOS uses an Android compatibility layer for the hardwarwe
Apr 20 22:36:15 <Slothman21> Yes, 9
Apr 20 22:36:36 <pcworld> maybe the Pre's advantage is that it's all plastic
Apr 20 22:37:00 <pcworld> depending on how technical are you could try to port it yourself, I guess
Apr 20 22:37:03 <Slothman21> Currently it's rooted, but no twrp
Apr 20 22:37:06 <pcworld> if bootloader is open and stuff
Apr 20 22:37:59 <pcworld> though I'm not sure if LuneOS is ready for a ready driver
Apr 20 22:38:14 <pcworld> iirc in one of the recent versions calling was completely broken. Not sure if they've fixed that
Apr 20 22:38:29 <Slothman21> I'll be honest, my programming skills are like a kid with that shape table, and I'm using a hammer to hit the star into the square slot
Apr 20 22:38:42 <Slothman21> I can get a solution, but it's ugly
Apr 20 22:38:42 <pcworld> :D
Apr 20 22:39:01 <pcworld> s/ready driver/daily driver/
Apr 20 22:40:39 <Slothman21> Thank you so much for your time and knowledge
Apr 20 22:41:37 <pcworld> no problem. Nice to talk about a subject which has so much nostalgia associated
Apr 20 22:41:53 <pcworld> other people just used to make fun of my phone :D
Apr 20 22:42:02 <pcworld> I finally need to take the time to set up my Pre 3 again
Apr 20 22:42:24 <Slothman21> This has been real good. I get really uncomfortable researching things like this, because tons of info gets omitted as such knowledge becomes assumed on the reader
Apr 20 22:42:29 <pcworld> let me know after you've used the Veer for a while, curious how it holds up for you
Apr 20 22:43:16 <pcworld> Like I said if you ask on the webosnation.com forum there will probably be people who can guide you through a lot of things
Apr 20 22:43:30 <Slothman21> So for someone who's just starting to look into such things, it's especially hard because the only recent info is practically jargon
Apr 20 22:43:46 <pcworld> I can imagine that yes
Apr 20 22:44:08 <pcworld> There's also a kind of "user group" (https://forums.webosnation.com/webos-events/331758-webos-user-s-online-meet-up.html) which does monthly meetings in this very IRC channel
Apr 20 22:44:20 <pcworld> other than that there's nothing really happing in this IRC channel
Apr 20 22:44:34 <pcworld> (#webos-ports is more active as it's used by the devs of LuneOS)
Apr 20 22:45:04 <Slothman21> No problem, I'll keep you up to date. Planned on joining the forums after confirming whether or not to buy multiple devices
Apr 20 22:45:38 <pcworld> Ok. Just know that the setup won't be trivial and will probably take you some days
Apr 20 22:45:48 <Slothman21> Just don't like handing out my email needlessly then dealing with spam the rest of my days,  lol
Apr 20 22:46:17 <Slothman21> Yea, i plan on holding onto my current phone while i debug
Apr 20 22:46:18 <pcworld> like you will probably need to create a custom webOS doctor (flashing tool) so you can boot the device without having to log into a webOS account (webOS servers are not reachable anymore)
Apr 20 22:46:34 <Slothman21> Read that
Apr 20 22:46:41 <Slothman21> 2014?
Apr 20 22:47:04 <pcworld> you mean when the webOS servers were killed? could be around that, not sure
Apr 20 22:48:40 <Slothman21> If memory serves, HP killed their store first, then killed the palm servers a little bit later
Apr 20 22:49:57 <pcworld> according to email history I received my last app catalog payment in November 2014  (used to sell apps in their app store)
Apr 20 22:50:16 <Slothman21> Around that time, i got my first smartphone, a Motorola photon with the lapdock
Apr 20 22:51:39 <Slothman21> Needed something that had GPS and maps because i started truck driving
Apr 20 22:51:51 <pcworld> ah GPS is kinda bad on webOS devices
Apr 20 22:51:54 <Slothman21> And I'm awful with directions
Apr 20 22:52:08 <pcworld> also the unofficial Google Maps app unfortunately died a year back or so
Apr 20 22:52:21 <Slothman21> It's fine, if not a perk
Apr 20 22:52:24 <pcworld> there's still Navit which is an open source navigation app
Apr 20 22:52:31 <pcworld> dunno if it works on the Veer
Apr 20 22:52:55 <Slothman21> If it didn't have GPS, I'd celebrate it
Apr 20 22:53:07 <pcworld> you can just turn it off
Apr 20 22:53:21 <Slothman21> I live in the sticks now
Apr 20 22:53:23 <pcworld> and it's not like Android these days where every app tracks all your movement
Apr 20 22:53:41 <pcworld> apps back then weren't as user-hostile back then, even the commercial ones
Apr 20 22:53:49 <Slothman21> If i cant follow the one road to town, I'm doomed anyways
Apr 20 22:54:22 <Slothman21> Yes, at one point in time, the user was cherished
Apr 20 22:54:39 <Slothman21> And treated with respect
Apr 20 22:55:15 <Slothman21> Yet another reason to use older devices from defunct companies
Apr 20 22:55:27 <Slothman21> Who can't change their minds
Apr 20 22:55:52 <pcworld> interesting point of view but true
Apr 20 22:56:25 <pcworld> to be honest I'm thinking of getting an Android device or so in the next few years and put lineageos or so on it just to have a decent mobile browser again
Apr 20 22:56:51 <pcworld> though I have hopes for projects like the Pinephone and the Purism Librem 5
Apr 20 22:57:02 <Slothman21> I've considered it for a while
Apr 20 22:57:20 <Slothman21> I've checked both
Apr 20 22:57:42 <Slothman21> It's funny because the pine phone got me into webos
Apr 20 22:58:16 <Slothman21> The new phone has veer specs
Apr 20 22:58:17 <Slothman21> Lol
Apr 20 22:59:05 <Slothman21> Why buy new when used is cheaper and has far more support?
Apr 20 23:01:26 <pcworld> well the pinephone has a more active development community around it
Apr 20 23:01:31 <pcworld> than legacy webOS
Apr 20 23:01:59 <Slothman21> Now I'm wondering if the veer can do phone and data at the same time
Apr 20 23:02:11 <pcworld> sure
Apr 20 23:02:22 <pcworld> why wouldn't it?
Apr 20 23:02:58 <Slothman21> My Sony z3v couldnt, and it's a fairly 'new ' phone
Apr 20 23:03:21 <pcworld> webOS is the pioneer of mobile multitasking
Apr 20 23:03:36 <pcworld> regarding multitasking it still does some things better than current mobile OSs
Apr 20 23:04:04 <Slothman21> This is why i must question these things. Also 2011 was really young in common sense phone features
Apr 20 23:04:23 <pcworld> are you talking about the Sony Xperia Z3?
Apr 20 23:04:56 <pcworld> that's a smartphone with Android 4.4, I can't imagine you couldn't use data while making a call
Apr 20 23:05:00 <pcworld> or maybe I misunderstood you
Apr 20 23:05:04 <Slothman21> The v at the end is critical
Apr 20 23:05:07 <Slothman21> The Verizon variant
Apr 20 23:05:48 <pcworld> ah Verizon is that provider that (used to?) have its own proprietary cellular standard right?
Apr 20 23:05:58 <Slothman21> Which they hid the fact it was different than the standard Z3
Apr 20 23:06:30 <Slothman21> yes, QI charging
Apr 20 23:06:53 <Slothman21> It was also more z2 than 3
Apr 20 23:08:02 <Slothman21> Verizon handled the software side, and botched it
Apr 20 23:09:05 <Slothman21> Then instead of patching it, they told the users to get the new Sony experia because they fixed the issues on that one
Apr 20 23:09:22 <pcworld> like always with current mobile phones
Apr 20 23:09:26 <pcworld> life expectancy of ~2 years
Apr 20 23:10:26 <Slothman21> I upgraded from my s4 to a Motorola droid mini
Apr 20 23:10:39 <Slothman21> Lol, it's great
Apr 20 23:10:56 <Slothman21> Can't handle monster phones
Apr 20 23:11:13 <pcworld> yeah it's funny back then the feature of phones was that they were small
Apr 20 23:11:28 <pcworld> and Palm/HP tried to do make extra small ones like the Veer and Pixi
Apr 20 23:11:51 <pcworld> and now people think having even larger phones is a feature
Apr 20 23:12:09 <pcworld> where you can't even reach all of the screen with one hand
Apr 20 23:12:26 <Slothman21> The palm however was so small, and so smooth and light, dropping it is guaranteed
Apr 20 23:12:43 <Slothman21> Pvg 100
Apr 20 23:13:05 <pcworld> smaller than the Veer?
Apr 20 23:13:12 <Slothman21> Yea
Apr 20 23:13:25 <Slothman21> And much thinner
Apr 20 23:13:33 <Slothman21> And all glass
Apr 20 23:14:04 <pcworld> ok yeah the Palm phones are really thick, especiall considering modern phones
Apr 20 23:14:14 <Slothman21> The world's best skipping stone
Apr 20 23:14:33 <pcworld> my Pre 3 has a 3rd party battery which is larger, it came with an extra case for the back so it's even thicker than normal
Apr 20 23:15:07 <Slothman21> my s4 had a giant battery as well
Apr 20 23:15:44 <Slothman21> The ninja turtles tried to invite my phone to their gang
Apr 20 23:16:47 <Slothman21> The failing point of that phone was the antenna was awful, same with the new palm phone
Apr 20 23:17:27 <Slothman21> And the giant battery only made reception worse
Apr 20 23:27:47 <pcworld> thanks for the chat, will tend to some other things now :)
Apr 20 23:28:27 <Slothman21> Take care and again, thanks for your time
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 21 02:59:59 2020